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Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:48 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
marcelh wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Do you think an airline like KLM or BA would dispatch an airplane that had been written up three times for the same problem? No, they wouldn't. It would have been sent to the maintenance base and wouldn't have left until they were certain they had identified the problem and made sure it was corrected.


And yet Lion Air is capable of flying the NG without converting them into a lawn dart....


Wrong again. Lion Air has crashed the NG.


Are you in charge of PR at Boeing?
 
marcelh
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:59 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
marcelh wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Do you think an airline like KLM or BA would dispatch an airplane that had been written up three times for the same problem? No, they wouldn't. It would have been sent to the maintenance base and wouldn't have left until they were certain they had identified the problem and made sure it was corrected.


And yet Lion Air is capable of flying the NG without converting them into a lawn dart....


Wrong again. Lion Air has crashed the NG.

Yes, they have had some bad landings. But nor in the same rate as the MAX crash - and more important - with the same amount of casualties.
Blame Ethiopian an Lion Air what you want - and we all know they aren’t perfect. Fact is that they don’t kill passengers with the NG by the hundreds.

And if you want to behave yourself like a stubborn 8 year old and ignore the facts why the MAX is grounded and what has been found after the grounding, please go on. But I think most people over here are just ignoring your posts and/or have promoted you to their “ignore” list. You may have some good poins, but they are blown away by the tone of your posts.
C’est le ton qui fait la chanson
 
AirwayBill
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:07 am

Baffled to see that almost half a page of replies has gone wasted feeding a failed troll or delusional Boeing apologist (or both). :spit:
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:16 am

marcelh wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
marcelh wrote:

And yet Lion Air is capable of flying the NG without converting them into a lawn dart....


Wrong again. Lion Air has crashed the NG.

Yes, they have had some bad landings. But nor in the same rate as the MAX crash - and more important - with the same amount of casualties.
Blame Ethiopian an Lion Air what you want - and we all know they aren’t perfect. Fact is that they don’t kill passengers with the NG by the hundreds.

And if you want to behave yourself like a stubborn 8 year old and ignore the facts why the MAX is grounded and what has been found after the grounding, please go on. But I think most people over here are just ignoring your posts and/or have promoted you to their “ignore” list. You may have some good poins, but they are blown away by the tone of your posts.
C’est le ton qui fait la chanson


That's fine. I don't have anyone on an ignore list. I also don't make personal remarks. Very rarely does one element lead to an accident. And in those cases it is usually criminal activity such as a bomb or hijacking. In almost all cases it is a series of events that leads to an accident.

Boeing and Rockwell-Collins will fix the MCAS problem. But these accidents have revealed just how inconsistent training and maintenance is among airlines around the world. I find it unsettling that a ~300 hour FO would be allowed to act as a crew member on a 737. In the US and most of the Western world the captain and FO are both highly experienced when in command of transport category aircraft. And both are required to challenge each other if they feel the safety of the flight is in question. There is too much disparity between an 8000 hour captain and 300 hour FO. That is like the FO being in on the job training. The captain isn't going to entertain concerns from the FO. We know that is a dangerous game from previous accidents.

A perfect airplane will still be dangerous in the hands of some airlines.

And there has been no new news discussed for quite some time in this thread. Believe it or not, we don't all have to have a favorite aircraft manufacturer or hate the other. I've been on Boeings, Airbus, and Embraer in the past month. No problems with any of them.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:42 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
But these accidents have revealed just how inconsistent training and maintenance is among airlines around the world. I find it unsettling that a ~300 hour FO would be allowed to act as a crew member on a 737. .......

A perfect airplane will still be dangerous in the hands of some airlines.




Training and inconsistency are a great subject. Are you ok with the fact that Boeing implemented MCAS and then managed to convince the FAA that no simulator trainings were required, whilst at the same time not informing pilots of MCAS in the first place? Of course not forgetting that Boeing after certification then changed the actual influence of MCAS without informing FAA.

These accidents would not have happened had Boeing been honest and upfront straight away and had Boeing not put profits before safety and agreed to real simulator trainings for all pilots prior to EIS.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:46 am

macc wrote:
smartplane wrote:
kalvado wrote:


Is Boeing paying for the engines or the airlines, as is the case usually with bigger planes? I remember that Boeing said CFM keeps production rates to compensate for the troubles in the beginning. Now, if Boeing has to pay 100 engines a month, that's quite some cash.

If its the airlines, I don't see them paying either.

Most NB customers buy the air frame and engine as a package from A or B, in contrast to what was fashionable with WB purchases for a while, where bigger customers negotiated air frames and engines separately.

This changed following RR, PW and CFM engines issues, in most cases driven by the finance industry, keen to avoid the situation where air frame and engine delivery is not synchronised, resulting in possible air frame penalty payments due to late delivery of engines.

Whether MAX customers have purchased a complete aircraft package through Boeing, or air frame and engines separately, engine related milestone payments will still fall due. If purchased as a package, these are passed on by Boeing to the customer, or if contracted separately, invoiced directly by GE to the customer.

As it's Boeing's choice to keep the MAX production lines open for aircraft it's customers cannot take delivery of or operate, engine payment milestones are being met by Boeing. Other than for customers that fund aircraft acquisitions from petty cash, the majority have a financiers involved, who would definitely not authorise milestone payments.

CFM and PW require minimum 2 year forward commitments from air frame OEM's, one of the reasons why A220 production is currently constrained, and MRJ too.

The temporary reduction in MAX production creates the opportunity for Airbus to increase production of CFM powered versions of the A32NEO family, and allocate some PW engine production capacity previously committed to the A32NEO, to instead build A220 spec engines.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:25 am

oschkosch wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
But these accidents have revealed just how inconsistent training and maintenance is among airlines around the world. I find it unsettling that a ~300 hour FO would be allowed to act as a crew member on a 737. .......

A perfect airplane will still be dangerous in the hands of some airlines.




Training and inconsistency are a great subject. Are you ok with the fact that Boeing implemented MCAS and then managed to convince the FAA that no simulator trainings were required, whilst at the same time not informing pilots of MCAS in the first place? Of course not forgetting that Boeing after certification then changed the actual influence of MCAS without informing FAA.

These accidents would not have happened had Boeing been honest and upfront straight away and had Boeing not put profits before safety and agreed to real simulator trainings for all pilots prior to EIS.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
oh and btw, leeham thinks grounding costs will be approaching development costs of a new plane soon...


https://leehamnews.com/2019/07/05/bjorn ... more-30604

From that article:

The end result of the management culture which produced this engineering shortcut is horrendous:

Two aircraft and 346 lives lost.

Boeing in eight months transformed from an admired civil aviation leader to a distrusted brand, subject to several criminal investigations.

The economic losses are not yet clear but they will approach the costs of a new aircraft development.



Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:33 am

smartplane wrote:
As it's Boeing's choice to keep the MAX production lines open for aircraft it's customers cannot take delivery of or operate, engine payment milestones are being met by Boeing. Other than for customers that fund aircraft acquisitions from petty cash, the majority have a financiers involved, who would definitely not authorise milestone payments.

CFM and PW require minimum 2 year forward commitments from air frame OEM's, one of the reasons why A220 production is currently constrained, and MRJ too.

The temporary reduction in MAX production creates the opportunity for Airbus to increase production of CFM powered versions of the A32NEO family, and allocate some PW engine production capacity previously committed to the A32NEO, to instead build A220 spec engines.

I wonder how much this is practical for Airbus to temporary ramp up A320neo and A220 (Bombardier) production as the return date of the 737-8/9 MAX into production is difficult to estimate. Increasing supply of each subcontractors could be a multi-month project in itself given the number of parties and all the paperwork involved.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:59 am

How long to ramp up the long lead time items? Even a temporary surge would be over a year away.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:31 pm

oschkosch wrote:

His story leans heavily on a statement that is opposite of what other sources say, namely:

An aerodynamic solution to the problem could have been made but a software fix was easier and cheaper to implement.

And while we read that management applied pressure with regard to cost, that in itself doesn't explain the poor design and testing of MCAS.

Some engineers made some poor choices, and that is what needs to be understood.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:53 pm

Revelation wrote:
His story leans heavily on a statement that is opposite of what other sources say, namely:
An aerodynamic solution to the problem could have been made but a software fix was easier and cheaper to implement.


These sources did not say, that no aerodynamic solution would be possible to solve the problem. They only talked about a particular aerodynamic solution. You are mixing that.

Its is clear, that there would be aerodynamical solutions to the problem (e.g. larger horizontal tail).
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:04 pm

Big piece on the BBC this morning both online and on BBC World. About the families who lost loved ones in the ET102 crash, their feelings about Boeing, the rush to certification, some of it featured Paul Njoroge who lost his entire family.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48872395
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
oschkosch wrote:

His story leans heavily on a statement that is opposite of what other sources say, namely:

An aerodynamic solution to the problem could have been made but a software fix was easier and cheaper to implement.

And while we read that management applied pressure with regard to cost, that in itself doesn't explain the poor design and testing of MCAS.

Some engineers made some poor choices, and that is what needs to be understood.

More over, aerodynamic fix was attempted at first. They said they tried few things, like fences, spoilers, wing shape, but could not get the result.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:18 pm

Revelation wrote:
oschkosch wrote:

His story leans heavily on a statement that is opposite of what other sources say, namely:

An aerodynamic solution to the problem could have been made but a software fix was easier and cheaper to implement.

And while we read that management applied pressure with regard to cost, that in itself doesn't explain the poor design and testing of MCAS.

Some engineers made some poor choices, and that is what needs to be understood.

The whole point of certification is to catch errors. No one is expected to never make any error, engineer included.

Some see error at the top executive level that pushed a new 737 iteration instead of a new design. Some see error at the "time and money" oriented management. Some see error at the safety culture. Some see error at engineer choices. Some see error at the design safety assessment activity. Some see error at the validation tests. Some see error at the certification work. Some see error at the politics that allowed certification delegation. Some see error in the manuals and others operational documents. Some see error in the training. Some see error at the airline. Some see error at the maintenance. Some see error at the pilots. Some see error at subcontractors. (And maybe some see error at birds).

The tragedy is that the deadly outcome could probably have been avoided at almost any above level, but this is not how the safety in the aircraft industry is expected to work today. The errors and probability of failure must be catch early and only mitigated by the later level if there is no other practical solution available. At the end of the chain the pilots must have only to handle the bare minimum of otherwise unavoidable situations. This is really the opposite of what happened with the 737-8/9 MAX where existing design and pilots procedures was used as arguments to allow to not mitigate failure risk early.

From my point of view, what is to be understood is that safety is the affair of everyone involved. If someone feel it can avoid safety because there are others that will take care of it in so many others layers, the risk is that more will feel like this, progressively at every levels, possibly discouraged by toxic safety environment, up to the point when the safety is broken and accidents kills.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:27 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
Revelation wrote:
oschkosch wrote:

His story leans heavily on a statement that is opposite of what other sources say, namely:

An aerodynamic solution to the problem could have been made but a software fix was easier and cheaper to implement.

And while we read that management applied pressure with regard to cost, that in itself doesn't explain the poor design and testing of MCAS.

Some engineers made some poor choices, and that is what needs to be understood.

Moreover, the aerodynamic fix was attempted at first. They said they tried few things, like fences, spoilers, wing shape, but could not get the result.

I believe that about MCAS 0.1, high-speed-only version. Which was, after all, designed with 2 sensors, and designed before the metal was cut for the first plane.
As far as I understand, the need for low-speed MCAS emerged during the flight test program when drastic solutions were no longer on the table, and anything beyond simple code change would plainly delay overall program. I wonder if aerodynamic fix was even reviewed at that point.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:36 pm

kalvado wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
....

I believe that about MCAS 0.1, high-speed-only version. Which was, after all, designed with 2 sensors, and designed before the metal was cut for the first plane.
As far as I understand, the need for low-speed MCAS emerged during the flight test program when drastic solutions were no longer on the table, and anything beyond simple code change would plainly delay overall program. I wonder if aerodynamic fix was even reviewed at that point.

Good point.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:45 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
Revelation wrote:
oschkosch wrote:

His story leans heavily on a statement that is opposite of what other sources say, namely:

An aerodynamic solution to the problem could have been made but a software fix was easier and cheaper to implement.

And while we read that management applied pressure with regard to cost, that in itself doesn't explain the poor design and testing of MCAS.

Some engineers made some poor choices, and that is what needs to be understood.

The whole point of certification is to catch errors. No one is expected to never make any error, engineer included.

Some see error at the top executive level that pushed a new 737 iteration instead of a new design. Some see error at the "time and money" oriented management. Some see error at the safety culture. Some see error at engineer choices. Some see error at the design safety assessment activity. Some see error at the validation tests. Some see error at the certification work. Some see error at the politics that allowed certification delegation. Some see error in the manuals and others operational documents. Some see error in the training. Some see error at the airline. Some see error at the maintenance. Some see error at the pilots. Some see error at subcontractors. (And maybe some see error at birds).

The tragedy is that the deadly outcome could probably have been avoided at almost any above level, but this is not how the safety in the aircraft industry is expected to work today. The errors and probability of failure must be catch early and only mitigated by the later level if there is no other practical solution available. At the end of the chain the pilots must have only to handle the bare minimum of otherwise unavoidable situations. This is really the opposite of what happened with the 737-8/9 MAX where existing design and pilots procedures was used as arguments to allow to not mitigate failure risk early.

From my point of view, what is to be understood is that safety is the affair of everyone involved. If someone feel it can avoid safety because there are others that will take care of it in so many others layers, the risk is that more will feel like this, progressively at every levels, possibly discouraged by toxic safety environment, up to the point when the safety is broken and accidents kills.


Well said indeed.

If it is possible to add anything, I would just like to say that non disclosure of the MCAS V1.0 design solution and safety assessment at the start and subsequent non-disclosure all the way through to FAA, test pilots, and operators diminished the likelihood of detection throughout until a predictable outcome did it for us.

Ray
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:05 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Revelation wrote:
His story leans heavily on a statement that is opposite of what other sources say, namely:

And while we read that management applied pressure with regard to cost, that in itself doesn't explain the poor design and testing of MCAS.

Some engineers made some poor choices, and that is what needs to be understood.

The whole point of certification is to catch errors. No one is expected to never make any error, engineer included.

Some see error at the top executive level that pushed a new 737 iteration instead of a new design. Some see error at the "time and money" oriented management. Some see error at the safety culture. Some see error at engineer choices. Some see error at the design safety assessment activity. Some see error at the validation tests. Some see error at the certification work. Some see error at the politics that allowed certification delegation. Some see error in the manuals and others operational documents. Some see error in the training. Some see error at the airline. Some see error at the maintenance. Some see error at the pilots. Some see error at subcontractors. (And maybe some see error at birds).

The tragedy is that the deadly outcome could probably have been avoided at almost any above level, but this is not how the safety in the aircraft industry is expected to work today. The errors and probability of failure must be catch early and only mitigated by the later level if there is no other practical solution available. At the end of the chain the pilots must have only to handle the bare minimum of otherwise unavoidable situations. This is really the opposite of what happened with the 737-8/9 MAX where existing design and pilots procedures was used as arguments to allow to not mitigate failure risk early.

From my point of view, what is to be understood is that safety is the affair of everyone involved. If someone feel it can avoid safety because there are others that will take care of it in so many others layers, the risk is that more will feel like this, progressively at every levels, possibly discouraged by toxic safety environment, up to the point when the safety is broken and accidents kills.


Well said indeed.

If it is possible to add anything, I would just like to say that non disclosure of the MCAS V1.0 design solution and safety assessment at the start and subsequent non-disclosure all the way through to FAA, test pilots, and operators diminished the likelihood of detection throughout until a predictable outcome did it for us.

Ray

This reminds me of an old US sports expression, "When you have two starting quarterbacks, you have none!". If you blame everybody you end up blaming nobody, and the laundry list above blamed everything except the terrible toilet paper at the Boeing factory (I know, I've been there for the tour, and I left the stall saying to myself, surely Airbus has better bum wipe!). Yet it feels good to blame everyone (victory has a thousand fathers, defeat has none) and generates clicks, so everything from top to bottom gets its time in the cross hairs.

In the end we're all speculating based on media reports written by largely non technical writers. I hope we eventually get a true rendering of how the key design and test failures happened on MCAS and keep all the meta content in its proper scale and context, but I'm prepared to be disappointed.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
If you blame everybody you end up blaming nobody, and the laundry list above blamed everything except the terrible toilet paper at the Boeing factory (I know, I've been there for the tour, and I left the stall saying to myself, surely Airbus has better bum wipe!). Yet it feels good to blame everyone (victory has a thousand fathers, defeat has none) and generates clicks, so everything from top to bottom gets its time in the cross hairs.

In the end we're all speculating based on media reports written by largely non technical writers. I hope we eventually get a true rendering of how the key design and test failures happened on MCAS and keep all the meta content in its proper scale and context, but I'm prepared to be disappointed.

Do we really need to find and punish someone (who would likely be a scapegoat than actual wrongdoer)?
This is yet again about holes in cheese aligning the wrong way, and the best we as a society can do is to make sure holes are patched and never align the same way again.
While there are definitely some people who carry more responsibility than others, at the end of the day nobody said "I will do things my way, and I don't care if the thing will crash". Courts will look for individual blame, but bloodthirsty revenge doesn't make world better or planes safer.Understanding of how things went wrong and letting people share their experience without looking at Fith amendment actually does a better job at the end of a day.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:19 pm

Revelation wrote:
Some engineers made some poor choices, and that is what needs to be understood.


That might be too simple, as there was a serious monetary interest to find a solution that required no extra crew training. Add the late changes to the amount of control MCAS had and how it was somehow lost in communication with the FAA, there might be more to it. It might have been a deliberate decision to go with that implementation.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:23 pm

kalvado wrote:
Do we really need to find and punish someone (who would likely be a scapegoat than actual wrongdoer)?
This is yet again about holes in cheese aligning the wrong way, and the best we as a society can do is to make sure holes are patched and never align the same way again.
While there are definitely some people who carry more responsibility than others, at the end of the day nobody said "I will do things my way, and I don't care if the thing will crash". Courts will look for individual blame, but bloodthirsty revenge doesn't make world better or planes safer.Understanding of how things went wrong and letting people share their experience without looking at Fith amendment actually does a better job at the end of a day.

I think we do. I'd like Boeing find a fire a guy who made a 'mistake' of not informing FAA of non-working disagree light. I'd like Boeing find and fire guy who came up with dysfunctional EAD. Even if it will end up to be a scapegoat. Seems like people are not invested enough in the safety. That has to change.

Look at MCAS 1.0. Probably dozens of people were exposed to it. And nobody said "hold on, the idea of 10sec activation, 5 sec pause, seems really, REALLY wrong. 10 and 5 seems to be random numbers, how did we come up with these numbers? Why do we need the pause anyway? Do we monitor feedback, i.e. does AOA decrease in response to stab movement? etc etc" I would say, fire everyone who touched MCAS. And certainly lead engineer. He should be designing toy drones for the rest of his career.
Last edited by ArgentoSystems on Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:24 pm

kalvado wrote:
Do we really need to find and punish someone (who would likely be a scapegoat than actual wrongdoer)?
This is yet again about holes in cheese aligning the wrong way, and the best we as a society can do is to make sure holes are patched and never align the same way again.
While there are definitely some people who carry more responsibility than others, at the end of the day nobody said "I will do things my way, and I don't care if the thing will crash". Courts will look for individual blame, but bloodthirsty revenge doesn't make world better or planes safer.Understanding of how things went wrong and letting people share their experience without looking at Fith amendment actually does a better job at the end of a day.

What I wrote was:

Revelation wrote:
And while we read that management applied pressure with regard to cost, that in itself doesn't explain the poor design and testing of MCAS.

Some engineers made some poor choices, and that is what needs to be understood.

So the key is understanding why poor choices were made and indeed patch the holes.

My concern is the statements that lead one to conclude that everything/everyone is the problem which seems to be the message one gets from reading this thread.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:01 pm

Revelation wrote:
This reminds me of an old US sports expression, "When you have two starting quarterbacks, you have none!". If you blame everybody you end up blaming nobody, and the laundry list above blamed everything except the terrible toilet paper at the Boeing factory (I know, I've been there for the tour, and I left the stall saying to myself, surely Airbus has better bum wipe!). Yet it feels good to blame everyone (victory has a thousand fathers, defeat has none) and generates clicks, so everything from top to bottom gets its time in the cross hairs.

In the end we're all speculating based on media reports written by largely non technical writers. I hope we eventually get a true rendering of how the key design and test failures happened on MCAS and keep all the meta content in its proper scale and context, but I'm prepared to be disappointed.

I tried to not blame (somebody/everybody) but observe that the whole process as used (not only at Boeing) produced a risk even if the main original purpose of that process was precisely to avoid that kind of risk. There are different speculations on the details where the risk would have been catch early, but the fact it that this risk passed trough all the levels without a successful catch. The actual Boeing position is that the 737-8/9 MAX was created in conformity to the process. I don't know is this is true or false. Motivated peoples will debate this using legal procedures. Until that debate is terminated, the next important investigation report is expected in about 4 months and will maybe give more information.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:05 pm

The question that needs answering is why was the system implemented in the way it was implemented. Boeing so far does not seem that motivated to find out.
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Do we really need to find and punish someone (who would likely be a scapegoat than actual wrongdoer)?
This is yet again about holes in cheese aligning the wrong way, and the best we as a society can do is to make sure holes are patched and never align the same way again.
While there are definitely some people who carry more responsibility than others, at the end of the day nobody said "I will do things my way, and I don't care if the thing will crash". Courts will look for individual blame, but bloodthirsty revenge doesn't make world better or planes safer.Understanding of how things went wrong and letting people share their experience without looking at Fith amendment actually does a better job at the end of a day.

What I wrote was:

Revelation wrote:
And while we read that management applied pressure with regard to cost, that in itself doesn't explain the poor design and testing of MCAS.

Some engineers made some poor choices, and that is what needs to be understood.

So the key is understanding why poor choices were made and indeed patch the holes.

My concern is the statements that lead one to conclude that everything/everyone is the problem which seems to be the message one gets from reading this thread.


Biggest message I've got from this is some things at Boeing are severely broke from the very top down

I go back again to the fact after the second crash Boeing fought against the plane being grounded

Forget about all the design flaws or mistakes made before then. The why and the how.

At a time when Boeing needed to START making good and trustworthy decisions they did the exact opposite. You can't blame that decision on engineers, pilots or sub contractors.

That's a decision taken at the very top of Boeing. And it was so wrong it's untrue.

That one fact alone tells me that people at the top cannot be trusted to put passenger safety ahead of looking after Boeing,

Boeing is therefore broken from the top down IMO

All the mistakes prior to that also likely stem from poor similar poor leadership and decision making

We know now that these planes are rightfully grounded. Don't think there is any argument there.

But it took airlines and other governments to make that happen.

How can anyone explain why Boeing would think they shouldn't put safety first and themselves ground the planes?

All other decisions and mistakes to me are just symptoms of a company that is clearly very poorly led from the top right now

There's no excuse for them fighting the grounding. And it says all you need to know about their decision making and what matters most to Boeing senior management

Boeing needs new senior management and sweeping changes to gain my trust back
Last edited by Interested on Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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PW100
Posts: 4123
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:32 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Blotto wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Do you think an airline like KLM or BA would dispatch an airplane that had been written up three times for the same problem? No, they wouldn't. It would have been sent to the maintenance base and wouldn't have left until they were certain they had identified the problem and made sure it was corrected.


That's just wrong


We have a very wide difference of opinion then. BA and KLM are not in the same category as Lion Air.


No.
No one is disputing that BA and KLM have are in a different category as Lion Air. Your conclusion that their maintenance played an important role in the crash on the other hand is considered by most as talk from your back end. Suggesting (indirectly) that KLM and BA would not experience such accident, is just wishful thinking and displays a lot of detachment from the real world, probably due to fanboyism.

BTW. You throw (false) accusations left and right on Lion Air maintenance on the doomed plane. But direct question on any specifics remain unanswered. Telling.
I wonder why I even bother replying . . .
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uta999
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:37 pm

Why was MCAS even designed to kick-in repeatedly at least ten times in quick succession? What if there were terrain involved. A safety feature designed to prevent a stall, would simply commit suicide anyway straight into some hard stuff. What was the point in that?

Someone must have thought what if and raised their hand in a meeting at some stage of the design process. Were they overruled?
Your computer just got better
 
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PW100
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:37 pm

Interested wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
marcelh wrote:

And yet Lion Air is capable of flying the NG without converting them into a lawn dart....


Wrong again. Lion Air has crashed the NG.


Are you in charge of PR at Boeing?


I think he had some PR role during the second gulf war.
Image
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
Virtual737
Posts: 732
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:51 pm

PW100 wrote:
Interested wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Wrong again. Lion Air has crashed the NG.


Are you in charge of PR at Boeing?


I think he had some PR role during the second gulf war.
Image


Were there any enemy tanks in his city at the time?
 
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mercure1
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:03 pm

Panama lifts ban on 737Max-8/9 aircraft in its airspace.

http://aerolatinnews.com/destacado/pana ... -max-8-y-9

Ask operators comply with following

- That the design and manufacturing status of the aircraft has authorized its operation
- That the operators have complied with the requirements established by the State of Design and Manufacturing for their return to their service.
- That the software, certified by the authority, reflect the change in the system called MCAS
- That all pilots operating the Boeing brand aircraft, models MAX8 and MAX9 have complied with the updated training
mercure f-wtcc
 
Virtual737
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:07 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Panama lifts ban on 737Max-8/9 aircraft in its airspace.

http://aerolatinnews.com/destacado/pana ... -max-8-y-9

Ask operators comply with following

- That the design and manufacturing status of the aircraft has authorized its operation
- That the operators have complied with the requirements established by the State of Design and Manufacturing for their return to their service.
- That the software, certified by the authority, reflect the change in the system called MCAS
- That all pilots operating the Boeing brand aircraft, models MAX8 and MAX9 have complied with the updated training


Interesting, although the link doesn't work for me (404 error).

Out of interest, how many of those 4 requirements can be met today (and so is it actually an ungrounding yet?)

Were there going to be any inter-Panama flights with the MAX (as they woudn't be able to fly anywhere else without other authorities lifting the grounding).
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:27 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Panama lifts ban on 737Max-8/9 aircraft in its airspace.

http://aerolatinnews.com/destacado/pana ... -max-8-y-9

Ask operators comply with following

- That the design and manufacturing status of the aircraft has authorized its operation
- That the operators have complied with the requirements established by the State of Design and Manufacturing for their return to their service.
- That the software, certified by the authority, reflect the change in the system called MCAS
- That all pilots operating the Boeing brand aircraft, models MAX8 and MAX9 have complied with the updated training


Interesting, although the link doesn't work for me (404 error).

Out of interest, how many of those 4 requirements can be met today (and so is it actually an ungrounding yet?)

Were there going to be any inter-Panama flights with the MAX (as they woudn't be able to fly anywhere else without other authorities lifting the grounding).

My Spanish is far from perfect, but I believe this would be a more accurate translation than google's.

- that the State where the aircraft was designed and built has authorized its operation
- that the operators have complied with the requirements established by the State (where the aircraft designed and built) for their return to their service
- that the simulator software, certified by the authority, reflects the changes in the MCAS system
- that all pilots operating the Boeing brand aircraft, models MAX8 and MAX9 have completed the updated training, as reviewed and approved by the AAC (Autoridad Aeronáutica Civil)


So… given that the USA (the State of design and fabrication of the 737MAX) has not lifted the grounding, that simulator software has not been updated, and that no training regime has been updated or approved by anyone, means that this is some rather meaningless news. Perhaps it is an attempt to suck up to the United States, not unlike Erdogan's recent statements. In any case, it's definitely not an ungrounding.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:41 pm

aerolimani wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Panama lifts ban on 737Max-8/9 aircraft in its airspace.

http://aerolatinnews.com/destacado/pana ... -max-8-y-9

Ask operators comply with following

- That the design and manufacturing status of the aircraft has authorized its operation
- That the operators have complied with the requirements established by the State of Design and Manufacturing for their return to their service.
- That the software, certified by the authority, reflect the change in the system called MCAS
- That all pilots operating the Boeing brand aircraft, models MAX8 and MAX9 have complied with the updated training


Interesting, although the link doesn't work for me (404 error).

Out of interest, how many of those 4 requirements can be met today (and so is it actually an ungrounding yet?)

Were there going to be any inter-Panama flights with the MAX (as they woudn't be able to fly anywhere else without other authorities lifting the grounding).

My Spanish is far from perfect, but I believe this would be a more accurate translation than google's.

- that the State where the aircraft was designed and built has authorized its operation
- that the operators have complied with the requirements established by the State (where the aircraft designed and built) for their return to their service
- that the simulator software, certified by the authority, reflects the changes in the MCAS system
- that all pilots operating the Boeing brand aircraft, models MAX8 and MAX9 have completed the updated training, as reviewed and approved by the AAC (Autoridad Aeronáutica Civil)


So… given that the USA (the State of design and fabrication of the 737MAX) has not lifted the grounding, that simulator software has not been updated, and that no training regime has been updated or approved by anyone, means that this is some rather meaningless news. Perhaps it is an attempt to suck up to the United States, not unlike Erdogan's recent statements. In any case, it's definitely not an ungrounding.


Thank you.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:51 pm

uta999 wrote:
Why was MCAS even designed to kick-in repeatedly at least ten times in quick succession? What if there were terrain involved. A safety feature designed to prevent a stall, would simply commit suicide anyway straight into some hard stuff. What was the point in that?

Someone must have thought what if and raised their hand in a meeting at some stage of the design process. Were they overruled?

Most likely, nobody realized it was designed that way. The assumption was that one shot would bring plane out of hazard zone, and system has to re-fire at next re-entry. Very simple.
This is sort of an exercise they do at programming 101 class. Write a program which takes 2 numbers, a and b and calculates a+b.
Easy? Sure
Now what happens if I input 1000O0 instead of A? 10000000000000 for A and 0.0001 for B? Forget to input B somehow?
Idiotic mistakes which do happen in real life. Sometimes people forget about those, and the cost maybe very high - an airplane crash, for example.
 
COEWR787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:16 pm

Europe (EASA) just outlined its own demands before it will let the MAX fly in Europe

https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing- ... urn-2019-5

Apparently they won;t be trusting FAA's soothing words any more.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:29 pm

COEWR787 wrote:
Europe (EASA) just outlined its own demands before it will let the MAX fly in Europe

https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing- ... urn-2019-5

Apparently they won;t be trusting FAA's soothing words any more.

The article is dated from 22 May 2019, 14:10. An update would be welcome.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
SelseyBill
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:43 pm

Interested wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Maybe I see through the faux outrage. Some of is realize Boeong isn't alone in having an airplane with a defect or design flaw. But Boeing does need new leadership. Not just because of this bit the NMA should have been launched a long time ago. They are being way too conservative in that market. I can't blame them for not launching an NSA. There was no engine for it and as far as I know there stll isn't.


350 dead - 5000 more people with their families devastated as a result

"Faux Outrage"

Says it all

If there are any key decision makers at Boeing with the same attitude as you - then maybe Boeing can actually fail after all
And if so it will be fully deserved

Let's hope for Boeing's sake you are just a severe outlier

Disregard the public at your peril


'TTailedTiger', your comments IMO are disgraceful and disrespectful to the dead. As a now former Boeing shareholder, I would like to think that none of the executives at Boeing share your views.

I understand the argument that corporately you should deflect any responsibilities until proof arises to protect your share price; although I don't agree with it in this case, as Boeing have lost the argument in the public sphere.

The problem could arise for Boeing that if; god forbid; there is another serious MAX incident; there may not be a share price to worry about. Boeing better get this right, and hopefully they'll ignore the advice of 'advocates' such as 'T-Tail'.........
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:58 pm

I would say the Panama is implicitly saying they don't have the expertise to address the MAX problem, but when the US FAA ungrounds the plane, it will be ungrounded in Panama. This may reverse an emergency(?) ruling grounding the MAX.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:00 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
COEWR787 wrote:
Europe (EASA) just outlined its own demands before it will let the MAX fly in Europe

https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing- ... urn-2019-5

Apparently they won;t be trusting FAA's soothing words any more.

The article is dated from 22 May 2019, 14:10. An update would be welcome.

Perhaps the poster meant to link todays Bloomberg.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -fly-again

Ray

EASA’s checklist includes the potential difficulty pilots have in turning the jet’s manual trim wheel, the unreliability of the Max’s angle-of-attack sensors, inadequate training procedures, the autopilot failing to disengage in certain emergencies, and a software issue flagged just last week by the FAA pertaining to a lagging microprocessor.


Don't think we've heard this one before?
 
kalvado
Posts: 2862
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:08 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
COEWR787 wrote:
Europe (EASA) just outlined its own demands before it will let the MAX fly in Europe

https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing- ... urn-2019-5

Apparently they won;t be trusting FAA's soothing words any more.

The article is dated from 22 May 2019, 14:10. An update would be welcome.

Perhaps the poster meant to link todays Bloomberg.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -fly-again

Ray

And this is going to be a pain...
EASA’s checklist includes the potential difficulty pilots have in turning the jet’s manual trim wheel
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24379
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:14 pm

kalvado wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
Perhaps the poster meant to link todays Bloomberg.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -fly-again

Ray

And this is going to be a pain...
EASA’s checklist includes the potential difficulty pilots have in turning the jet’s manual trim wheel

And yet:

Boeing has been telling customers and others in the industry that it expects the plane will be returned to service by September. That timetable includes fixing the software implicated in the two crashes as well as the latest flaw identified with the microprocessor, said a person familiar with the company’s guidance.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ArgentoSystems
Posts: 315
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
Boeing has been telling customers and others in the industry that it expects the plane will be returned to service by September. That timetable includes fixing the software implicated in the two crashes as well as the latest flaw identified with the microprocessor, said a person familiar with the company’s guidance.

No, that's outdated info. Right now Boeing does not have any estimates on return to service.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:03 pm

Revelation wrote:
kalvado wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
Perhaps the poster meant to link todays Bloomberg.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -fly-again

Ray

And this is going to be a pain...
EASA’s checklist includes the potential difficulty pilots have in turning the jet’s manual trim wheel

And yet:

Boeing has been telling customers and others in the industry that it expects the plane will be returned to service by September. That timetable includes fixing the software implicated in the two crashes as well as the latest flaw identified with the microprocessor, said a person familiar with the company’s guidance.

I wonder if the item referring to AOA sensor reliability and the additional part of the report below would tend to point toward a three sensor solution being required?

'Potentially more complex will be addressing the AOA, or angle of attack, sensors on which MCAS relies. At the time of the Ethiopian crash in March, Boeing’s system was using just one of the two sensors installed on the plane. EASA director Patrick Ky said in an interview last month that retrofitting additional hardware was not off the table,'

Ray
 
Absynth
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:27 pm

Revelation wrote:

Boeing has been telling customers and others in the industry that it expects the plane will be returned to service by September. That timetable includes fixing the software implicated in the two crashes as well as the latest flaw identified with the microprocessor, said a person familiar with the company’s guidance.


You keep bringing that statement up but

a) "returned to service by September" does not equal worldwide ungrounding. It's pretty likely from multiple statements including that Bloomberg article Europe will likely follow later and China even later still. If there is a worldwide ungrounding, it will follow the slowest path not the fastest possible path that is painted by Boeing.

b) this is a statement by Boeing. The same Boeing that stated in early may that a fix was ready yet waited for weeks to actually turn it in. They have a vested interest in portraying the situation through the most rose tinted glasses you'd be able to source, yet you continue to pencil this statement as if it were fact and extrapolate this to the rest of the world in one full sweep. Bizarre.

You use a Boeing statement to counter statements from EASA. Even when the source is anonymous, Bloomberg is no gossip magazine using dubious sources. EASA won't make any official statetements on this so this is about as trustworthy news about their approach and what it means for Boeing as it possibly gets.
 
andrewfarmer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:21 pm

This line from today's Leeham article really strikes me:
It all shows how high the stakes are in civil aviation and that commercial pressures can never be allowed to rule engineering decisions.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/07/05/bjorn ... a-fortune/

Focusing on poor engineering of MCAS misses the point: the engineers were given specs and told to make it happen. Those specs called for type commonality and no new training requirements. To blame the engineers for bad decisions sidesteps the real issue. The real failure of the engineers was not standing up to the "commercial pressures". Where is the engineering leadership at Boeing? They're clearly not running the show, nor do they have any political clout.

Where are the leaders like Joe Sutter who, when told by management to cut engineers from the 747 programme, said No, you will give me 800 more engineers. But in the end, 800 or 8000 genius engineers mean nothing if you don't have one person to stand up to management. Tell them to shove their cost-cutting, outsourcing, MBA playbook in their APU.

Congratulations to the executives who decided MAX was a faster, better, cheaper alternative to a clean sheet NSA. And shame on the engineers who failed to call them out.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:27 pm

And what engines would the NSA have used? Both Airbus and Boeing said there were no engines available that would make a new narrow body worthwhile.
 
tropical
Posts: 103
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:02 pm

Given that the total costs of the grounding will run into billions (whatever the number of billions might end up being), Boeing continues to needlessly shoot itself in the foot by announcing a victims compensation fund of just $100m, which works out at less than 300k per passenger.

I’m sure lawyers for the families of the victims would initially reject any initial offer as insufficient as part of the whole negotiation process. But from the PR angle alone, and considering how relatively small the amount would be within the overall cost of this affair, not to mention how financially strong Boeing is, anything less than a million dollars per victim is not only derisory but also counterproductive, and only serves to generate even more bad publicity for the company. WTF were those in charge of making such decisions thinking??
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:10 pm

tropical wrote:
Given that the total costs of the grounding will run into billions (whatever the number of billions might end up being), Boeing continues to needlessly shoot itself in the foot by announcing a victims compensation fund of just $100m, which works out at less than 300k per passenger.

I’m sure lawyers for the families of the victims would initially reject any initial offer as insufficient as part of the whole negotiation process. But from the PR angle alone, and considering how relatively small the amount would be within the overall cost of this affair, not to mention how financially strong Boeing is, anything less than a million dollars per victim is not only derisory but also counterproductive, and only serves to generate even more bad publicity for the company. WTF were those in charge of making such decisions thinking??


Think that's a fund for something else - not the victims
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:19 pm

Absynth wrote:
Revelation wrote:

Boeing has been telling customers and others in the industry that it expects the plane will be returned to service by September. That timetable includes fixing the software implicated in the two crashes as well as the latest flaw identified with the microprocessor, said a person familiar with the company’s guidance.


You keep bringing that statement up but

a) "returned to service by September" does not equal worldwide ungrounding. It's pretty likely from multiple statements including that Bloomberg article Europe will likely follow later and China even later still. If there is a worldwide ungrounding, it will follow the slowest path not the fastest possible path that is painted by Boeing.

b) this is a statement by Boeing. The same Boeing that stated in early may that a fix was ready yet waited for weeks to actually turn it in. They have a vested interest in portraying the situation through the most rose tinted glasses you'd be able to source, yet you continue to pencil this statement as if it were fact and extrapolate this to the rest of the world in one full sweep. Bizarre.

You use a Boeing statement to counter statements from EASA. Even when the source is anonymous, Bloomberg is no gossip magazine using dubious sources. EASA won't make any official statetements on this so this is about as trustworthy news about their approach and what it means for Boeing as it possibly gets.

That's a lot of outrage venting over one simple statement posted with proper attribution in its proper context, Absynth.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Interested
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
Absynth wrote:
Revelation wrote:



You keep bringing that statement up but

a) "returned to service by September" does not equal worldwide ungrounding. It's pretty likely from multiple statements including that Bloomberg article Europe will likely follow later and China even later still. If there is a worldwide ungrounding, it will follow the slowest path not the fastest possible path that is painted by Boeing.

b) this is a statement by Boeing. The same Boeing that stated in early may that a fix was ready yet waited for weeks to actually turn it in. They have a vested interest in portraying the situation through the most rose tinted glasses you'd be able to source, yet you continue to pencil this statement as if it were fact and extrapolate this to the rest of the world in one full sweep. Bizarre.

You use a Boeing statement to counter statements from EASA. Even when the source is anonymous, Bloomberg is no gossip magazine using dubious sources. EASA won't make any official statetements on this so this is about as trustworthy news about their approach and what it means for Boeing as it possibly gets.

That's a lot of outrage venting over one simple statement posted with proper attribution in its proper context, Absynth.


Did you post the statement actually believing it will happen revelation?

Be honest ?

When do you expect the Max to be ungrounded?
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