Dieuwer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:58 pm

CitiGroup: "Boeing's 737 MAX needs to return to service by Q4 or else airlines could make plans without the jet for summer 2020."

https://www.investors.com/news/boeing-7 ... n-warning/
 
bgm
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:19 pm

So it seems likely that the MAX won’t be flying for the remainder of 2019? Ouch.
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XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:20 pm

Interesting new lawsuit pulling Southwest into the mix.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 84228.html

Ray
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:25 pm

par13del wrote:
The more interesting thing would be if this satisfies those who are looking for scalps at the management level.

Certainly not. Good start though.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:40 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
par13del wrote:
The more interesting thing would be if this satisfies those who are looking for scalps at the management level.

Certainly not. Good start though.

Good start for someone who had nothing to do with the MAX design but was put there to resolve production issues?
Ok.....
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:37 pm

par13del wrote:
Good start for someone who had nothing to do with the MAX design but was put there to resolve production issues?
Ok.....

It's better than nothing. If they started to fire people it means they now know they screwed up, just don't know who exactly. Not so long ago their mantra was "we did nothing wrong".

And frankly he is not a scapegoat, not by a long shot. He was at the helm all the time from Lion Air, and what did he do? He let one more plane crash after that. Well deserved firing.

If you take charge of the project, you are it. You can't be a boss and when SHTF turn around and say no-no, it is not me it is the other guy. If you inherit turd, shut it down and clean up.

So yeah, good start.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:44 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
I wouldn’t read too much into this. EL was about to retire (>55 and a good retirement package) when he was asked to return to Renton from Everett (777X to 737) to straighten out the issues on the 737 line. He had nothing to do with the 737 issues and what he came to Renton for was accomplished. Anybody with any intelligence would say “time to retire”.

Nah, I don't think so. First of all, 57 is not a retirement age. It's nice to retire at least knowing you finished your work. Leaving like that, with a colossal cluster.... as your legacy? No, I don't believe it was voluntary.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:40 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
7BOEING7 wrote:
I wouldn’t read too much into this. EL was about to retire (>55 and a good retirement package) when he was asked to return to Renton from Everett (777X to 737) to straighten out the issues on the 737 line. He had nothing to do with the 737 issues and what he came to Renton for was accomplished. Anybody with any intelligence would say “time to retire”.

Nah, I don't think so. First of all, 57 is not a retirement age. It's nice to retire at least knowing you finished your work. Leaving like that, with a colossal cluster.... as your legacy? No, I don't believe it was voluntary.


Wrong there. You can retire at Boeing at age 55 (many have) and being upper management he’ll have more than enough $$$$ to live comfortably. He was headed out the door when he got approached to go back to Renton where he had spent the majority of his career, to clean up the MAX production mess - the production mess was cleaned up. At some point in your life you need to realize “tbsgfe” this bullshits gone far enough.

The MCAS issue is not “his” legacy and only idiots would consider him a valid head to chop. Look at Mulally who is directly responsible for the full weight of the 787 fiasco — the average village idiot on a.net wants McNerney’s head..
 
triple3driver
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:46 pm

Tough break for Boeing and all the airlines. I think that this has been going on for longer than the infamous DC10 grounding now, IIRC
If you can walk away from it intact, it was a good landing!
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:23 pm

Interested wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48953892

The negative stories about Boeing keep building.

"Families cheated of Boeing crash compensation"

74k per family - I've no doubt with the level of focus on this crash Boeing wont get away with this. Maybe they would in the past. But not this time.



Sadly but fortunately, the ET302 families had much more information about the Max, and Boeing, at the time of their crash, than the JT610 families did. And the fact that the families of ET302 victims were multinational, including the families of 8 Americans and 18 Canadians, means more of a chance they won't be persuaded by money, and much less of a chance they will succumb the same fate.
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jplatts
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:45 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
Interesting new lawsuit pulling Southwest into the mix.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 84228.html

Ray


The lawsuit that was recently filed against WN and Boeing regarding the 737 MAX safety issues is already being discussed at https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426789.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:24 am

Dieuwer wrote:
CitiGroup: "Boeing's 737 MAX needs to return to service by Q4 or else airlines could make plans without the jet for summer 2020."

https://www.investors.com/news/boeing-7 ... n-warning/



That sounds like serious trouble.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:51 am

jplatts wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
Interesting new lawsuit pulling Southwest into the mix.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 84228.html

Ray


The lawsuit that was recently filed against WN and Boeing regarding the 737 MAX safety issues is already being discussed at https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426789.

Thanks and apologies.

Ray
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:40 am

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthomp ... max-story/

A reminder, if you needed it, about how vital Boeing is to the US economy.
The pressure on Boeing and the FAA to rush the 737MAX back into the air must be immense.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:08 am

flyingphil wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2019/07/11/five-basic-facts-about-boeing-missing-from-coverage-of-the-737-max-story/

A reminder, if you needed it, about how vital Boeing is to the US economy.
The pressure on Boeing and the FAA to rush the 737MAX back into the air must be immense.



Very true. However the thing is they cannot "rush" anything now. Too many mistakes were made previously.
 
devron
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:34 am

flyingphil wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2019/07/11/five-basic-facts-about-boeing-missing-from-coverage-of-the-737-max-story/

A reminder, if you needed it, about how vital Boeing is to the US economy.
The pressure on Boeing and the FAA to rush the 737MAX back into the air must be immense.


True just that it is out of FAA control and they might feel releaved about htis. If the other big regulators (i.e, EU and China) don`t agree it will not fly.
 
uta999
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:31 am

flyingphil wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2019/07/11/five-basic-facts-about-boeing-missing-from-coverage-of-the-737-max-story/

A reminder, if you needed it, about how vital Boeing is to the US economy.
The pressure on Boeing and the FAA to rush the 737MAX back into the air must be immense.


I like the impartiality of reporting here:

"Boeing is the only U.S. maker of jetliners left. There was a time two generations ago when several U.S. companies competed to build commercial transports. Not just Boeing, but Douglas, Lockheed, Martin and others. The end of the Cold War and four decades of illegal subsidies to European favourite Airbus put an end to that".
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StTim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:45 am

uta999 wrote:
flyingphil wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2019/07/11/five-basic-facts-about-boeing-missing-from-coverage-of-the-737-max-story/

A reminder, if you needed it, about how vital Boeing is to the US economy.
The pressure on Boeing and the FAA to rush the 737MAX back into the air must be immense.


I like the impartiality of reporting here:

"Boeing is the only U.S. maker of jetliners left. There was a time two generations ago when several U.S. companies competed to build commercial transports. Not just Boeing, but Douglas, Lockheed, Martin and others. The end of the Cold War and four decades of illegal subsidies to European favourite Airbus put an end to that".


The story line is so embedded now that most Americans accept it as fact.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:24 pm

StTim wrote:
uta999 wrote:
flyingphil wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2019/07/11/five-basic-facts-about-boeing-missing-from-coverage-of-the-737-max-story/

A reminder, if you needed it, about how vital Boeing is to the US economy.
The pressure on Boeing and the FAA to rush the 737MAX back into the air must be immense.


I like the impartiality of reporting here:

"Boeing is the only U.S. maker of jetliners left. There was a time two generations ago when several U.S. companies competed to build commercial transports. Not just Boeing, but Douglas, Lockheed, Martin and others. The end of the Cold War and four decades of illegal subsidies to European favourite Airbus put an end to that".


The story line is so embedded now that most Americans accept it as fact.

Another „fact“ presented in that article:

Unlike companies such as Apple, Boeing has consistently resisted the pressure to build its products with cheap labor in foreign countries.


Boeing just opened its first 737 completion plant in China at the end of last year... :scratchchin:
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:29 pm

N14AZ wrote:
StTim wrote:
uta999 wrote:

I like the impartiality of reporting here:

"Boeing is the only U.S. maker of jetliners left. There was a time two generations ago when several U.S. companies competed to build commercial transports. Not just Boeing, but Douglas, Lockheed, Martin and others. The end of the Cold War and four decades of illegal subsidies to European favourite Airbus put an end to that".


The story line is so embedded now that most Americans accept it as fact.

Another „fact“ presented in that article:

Unlike companies such as Apple, Boeing has consistently resisted the pressure to build its products with cheap labor in foreign countries.


Boeing just opened its first 737 completion plant in China at the end of last year... :scratchchin:

An other one:
Innovation is probably the single most important advantage Boeing has over Airbus

Airbus certainly innovated when there upgraded to the A320neo with bigger engines, and Boeing rushed reaction ended in the creation of this thread.
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:10 pm

Another gem from the Forbes article..
'The U.S. has gradually ceased manufacturing televisions, telephones and a host of other products invented here..'

Some interesting info in the article, but comes across as a desperate PR puff for Boeing .. and encouraging corners to be cut in getting the 737MAX in the air again.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:26 pm

flyingphil wrote:
Some interesting info in the article, but comes across as a desperate PR puff for Boeing .. and encouraging corners to be cut in getting the 737MAX in the air again.

The author is paid by Boeing, he states this in his piece.

"Encouraging corners to be cut" is just your take on the piece.

He never talks about the process of ungrounding the 737 nor the timeline, just the impact that the grounding has on Boeing and in turn the US economy.

One could also go with "Trying to preempt excessive piling on" if they were so inclined.
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:50 pm

Revelation wrote:
flyingphil wrote:
Some interesting info in the article, but comes across as a desperate PR puff for Boeing .. and encouraging corners to be cut in getting the 737MAX in the air again.

The author is paid by Boeing, he states this in his piece.

Indeed, one should not confuse this article with being news, or upholding journalistic principles. It’s a Boeing-sponsored editorial, and one needs to understand that while reading it. I’m not saying it’s without value. I actually am interested to know what Boeing has to say.
 
Aircellist
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:28 pm

Well, so the telephone was invented in the USA? Tell that to Alexander Graham Bell…

And if it is the measure of the quality of the editorial, well… It just reminds me that time, in the early years of A.net, when a piece directly from Boeing's PR was reproduced here, which said that Boeing had invented the jet airliner… Tell that to Geoffrey de Havilland…

Joking apart, and I am sorry for the many Boeing fans around here, but all that reeks of complacency.

I strongly believe that the mother of all troubles lies in the long-known-truth that in a Boeing, the pilot controls everything. When confronted with the fact that that truth had to no longer be true, at the corporation level, it could not be born to bear. So, instead of being transparent, as should have been, it became invisible.
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planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:30 pm

Aircellist wrote:
Well, so the telephone was invented in the USA? Tell that to Alexander Graham Bell…

And if it is the measure of the quality of the editorial, well… It just reminds me that time, in the early years of A.net, when a piece directly from Boeing's PR was reproduced here, which said that Boeing had invented the jet airliner… Tell that to Geoffrey de Havilland…

Joking apart, and I am sorry for the many Boeing fans around here, but all that reeks of complacency.

I strongly believe that the mother of all troubles lies in the long-known-truth that in a Boeing, the pilot controls everything. When confronted with the fact that that truth had to no longer be true, at the corporation level, it could not be born to bear. So, instead of being transparent, as should have been, it became invisible.


Bell had a lab in Boston that was used at least for some of the invention of the telephone. IIRC it was split between the USA and Canada where he did the work. So the editorial isn't completely incorrect.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:42 pm

planecane wrote:
Aircellist wrote:
Well, so the telephone was invented in the USA? Tell that to Alexander Graham Bell…

And if it is the measure of the quality of the editorial, well… It just reminds me that time, in the early years of A.net, when a piece directly from Boeing's PR was reproduced here, which said that Boeing had invented the jet airliner… Tell that to Geoffrey de Havilland…

Joking apart, and I am sorry for the many Boeing fans around here, but all that reeks of complacency.

I strongly believe that the mother of all troubles lies in the long-known-truth that in a Boeing, the pilot controls everything. When confronted with the fact that that truth had to no longer be true, at the corporation level, it could not be born to bear. So, instead of being transparent, as should have been, it became invisible.


Bell had a lab in Boston that was used at least for some of the invention of the telephone. IIRC it was split between the USA and Canada where he did the work. So the editorial isn't completely incorrect.

There were airports in the US in 1760, of course. Maybe the guy writes for Trump as well!

Ray
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:44 pm

aerolimani wrote:
Indeed, one should not confuse this article with being news, or upholding journalistic principles. It’s a Boeing-sponsored editorial, and one needs to understand that while reading it. I’m not saying it’s without value. I actually am interested to know what Boeing has to say.


Yep, Loren Thompson is a shill for hire.
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Exeiowa
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:17 pm

If they had not wanted to damage Boeing and the US economy they should have done a better job building and designing planes rather than working on this kind of nonsense. The fact is anything that is discovered can be discovered by others, anything invented can be invented by others and everything can always be copied.

Manufacturing in countries with higher costs comes with a certain transfer of quality perception to that product. So if you go ahead and squander this, what are you left to compete with?

In the past serious accidents and loss of life occured but this is now a mature sector, that is no longer an acceptable way.

I really thought at the beginning this was a small oversight leading to unforseen consequences, however the longer this has dragged on the more apparent that the issues are structural and much larger. There is still no end to this right now, and we seem to have got past most of the possibilities and it sits at Boeing door to remedy.
 
LDRA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:25 pm

Firing working level technical staff solves zero issue. They need to look at Boeing corporate management, the ones that are company officers
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:06 pm

LDRA wrote:
Firing working level technical staff solves zero issue. They need to look at Boeing corporate management, the ones that are company officers

Unless it is shown that corporate management made the call on the MCAS design I disagree. It is most likely engineers and engineering managers that made the choices.

If management gave the directive for minimal differences but the engineers and engineering managers didn't alert them to compromises being made, it isn't the fault of the people that made the "ask" it is the fault of the people that didn't bring up concerns.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:50 pm

planecane wrote:
LDRA wrote:
Firing working level technical staff solves zero issue. They need to look at Boeing corporate management, the ones that are company officers

Unless it is shown that corporate management made the call on the MCAS design I disagree. It is most likely engineers and engineering managers that made the choices.

If management gave the directive for minimal differences but the engineers and engineering managers didn't alert them to compromises being made, it isn't the fault of the people that made the "ask" it is the fault of the people that didn't bring up concerns.

If upper level management doesn't know what the engineering departments are doing, then why are they even there? What job are they doing? Perhaps they don't know all the precise details, but they certainly are responsible for the overall work environment, and if that environment led to poor results, that is their responsibility. You can bet they pat each other on the back, and take the credit, for everything that goes well.
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:01 pm

Aircellist wrote:
I strongly believe that the mother of all troubles lies in the long-known-truth that in a Boeing, the pilot controls everything.



That credo seems just to be an excuse not to develope a full FBW system for the good old 737 ...
 
crjflyboy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:33 pm

Is BOEING compensating airlines that are caught up in this disaster ?
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:48 pm

planecane wrote:
LDRA wrote:
Firing working level technical staff solves zero issue. They need to look at Boeing corporate management, the ones that are company officers

Unless it is shown that corporate management made the call on the MCAS design I disagree. It is most likely engineers and engineering managers that made the choices.

If management gave the directive for minimal differences but the engineers and engineering managers didn't alert them to compromises being made, it isn't the fault of the people that made the "ask" it is the fault of the people that didn't bring up concerns.
If you read between the lines there is a culture of fear that has bean created by management over many years. People have been afraid to speak out.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:07 am

crjflyboy wrote:
Is BOEING compensating airlines that are caught up in this disaster ?

All sale / purchase agreements include a standard confidentiality agreement, with a more detailed side agreement since the 00's. The former may be published, the second never.

RR included a 3rd confidentiality agreement as part of their compensation package, which has been watertight to-date.

Boeing will have learned some lessons from RR (one of the two crisis PR companies used is the same).

Unless posters want to be unemployed, unemployable, very poor, and involved in protracted legal action, we can only guess the detail.

Like the media confuse orders and LOI's, and discounts with retrospective credits, cash changing hands will be the exception.

At the moment, milestone (progress) payments have been suspended, except for customers who in hindsight, unwisely, purchased engines direct from GE (they will have an extra milestone payment or two to make).

There will likely be an agreed formula, where Boeing and the customer ID the costs of the delay, less savings (like interest on milestone payments not made), ending up with a net figure, with an added 'inconvenience' value, and a 'sweetener', both probably expressed as a % of the costs identified.

How this is finally apportioned between Boeing, their insurers, 3rd parties (if any, and their insurers) and the FAA and their insurers is way into the future.

Those opting to have their aircraft modifications prioritised, back in the air first, will presumably have their compensation discounted, compared to others.
 
bgm
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:14 am

Today marks 4 months since the FAA grounded the MAX. It was one of the last agencies to do so.
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
crjflyboy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:21 am

smartplane wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
Is BOEING compensating airlines that are caught up in this disaster ?

All sale / purchase agreements include a standard confidentiality agreement, with a more detailed side agreement since the 00's. The former may be published, the second never.

RR included a 3rd confidentiality agreement as part of their compensation package, which has been watertight to-date.

Boeing will have learned some lessons from RR (one of the two crisis PR companies used is the same).

Unless posters want to be unemployed, unemployable, very poor, and involved in protracted legal action, we can only guess the detail.

Like the media confuse orders and LOI's, and discounts with retrospective credits, cash changing hands will be the exception.

At the moment, milestone (progress) payments have been suspended, except for customers who in hindsight, unwisely, purchased engines direct from GE (they will have an extra milestone payment or two to make).

There will likely be an agreed formula, where Boeing and the customer ID the costs of the delay, less savings (like interest on milestone payments not made), ending up with a net figure, with an added 'inconvenience' value, and a 'sweetener', both probably expressed as a % of the costs identified.

How this is finally apportioned between Boeing, their insurers, 3rd parties (if any, and their insurers) and the FAA and their insurers is way into the future.

Those opting to have their aircraft modifications prioritised, back in the air first, will presumably have their compensation discounted, compared to others.


I find it rather strange that BOEING has only publicly stated they have set aside 1 billion for this fiasco... it will be in the several billions

https://knowherenews.com/event/5eec0ef1 ... 833c889863
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:34 am

crjflyboy wrote:
I find it rather strange that BOEING has only publicly stated they have set aside 1 billion for this fiasco... it will be in the several billions

https://knowherenews.com/event/5eec0ef1 ... 833c889863

It will probably be in the several billions after adding all the costs no included in the counting:

$1 billion is considered conservative in that it covers increased production costs for several years but does not include Boeing's spending on software fixes, additional pilot training, airline payments for grounded jets, or money for families of those killed in the two crashes.
 
LDRA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:52 am

RickNRoll wrote:
planecane wrote:
LDRA wrote:
Firing working level technical staff solves zero issue. They need to look at Boeing corporate management, the ones that are company officers

Unless it is shown that corporate management made the call on the MCAS design I disagree. It is most likely engineers and engineering managers that made the choices.

If management gave the directive for minimal differences but the engineers and engineering managers didn't alert them to compromises being made, it isn't the fault of the people that made the "ask" it is the fault of the people that didn't bring up concerns.
If you read between the lines there is a culture of fear that has bean created by management over many years. People have been afraid to speak out.


Typically techinical staff wants to communicate safety issues to management. Management will run away from that, and will attempt to destroy/supress any evidence that they were told of the safety issues.

It is a real issue with no solution
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:00 am

PixelFlight wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
I find it rather strange that BOEING has only publicly stated they have set aside 1 billion for this fiasco... it will be in the several billions

https://knowherenews.com/event/5eec0ef1 ... 833c889863

It will probably be in the several billions after adding all the costs no included in the counting:

$1 billion is considered conservative in that it covers increased production costs for several years but does not include Boeing's spending on software fixes, additional pilot training, airline payments for grounded jets, or money for families of those killed in the two crashes.

Yes, it is odd. They don't make 10 planes per month, which is 500M in forever lost sales. That alone is 1.5B over 3 month of reduced production. And no end in sight.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:05 am

crjflyboy wrote:
I find it rather strange that BOEING has only publicly stated they have set aside 1 billion for this fiasco... it will be in the several billions

It can wait. For the time being Boeing will fix the plane and have it certified so they can deliver planes again. $1B is plenty of money for that.

At some time, likely next year, the accident reports will be published. Very likely they will be at least partially disputed by some stake holders. That will keep time running.

At some uncertain time far out in the future there will then be a lot of work in different courtrooms around the world. They will work for years before they come up with rulings which will be appealed to a higher level to begin from scratch.

Etc. etc.

At this stage it is pure guesswork what money Boeing in the end will have to fork out. The only relatively certain things are that they will not pay one cent more than needed, and if it becomes a substantial money pile, then it will likely be in the time frame 5 to 10 years out in the future.

New subject: There are also companies which are earning millions on the MAX grounding. Airlines with no MAX planes enjoy decreased competition from airlines with MAX planes, higher load factors and booming revenue management systems. In a totally fair world they should hand out part of their extra profit to Boeing, but that's not gonna happen.

Also airlines with MAX fleet enjoy higher load factors and higher average ticket prices than what would have been the case if 500 MAX planes world wide were flying instead of parked. They will conveniently forget to subtract that when they finally present their grounding bill to Boeing.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 557
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:21 am

prebennorholm wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
I find it rather strange that BOEING has only publicly stated they have set aside 1 billion for this fiasco... it will be in the several billions

It can wait. For the time being Boeing will fix the plane and have it certified so they can deliver planes again. $1B is plenty of money for that.

At some time, likely next year, the accident reports will be published. Very likely they will be at least partially disputed by some stake holders. That will keep time running.

At some uncertain time far out in the future there will then be a lot of work in different courtrooms around the world. They will work for years before they come up with rulings which will be appealed to a higher level to begin from scratch.

Etc. etc.

At this stage it is pure guesswork what money Boeing in the end will have to fork out. The only relatively certain things are that they will not pay one cent more than needed, and if it becomes a substantial money pile, then it will likely be in the time frame 5 to 10 years out in the future.

New subject: There are also companies which are earning millions on the MAX grounding. Airlines with no MAX planes enjoy decreased competition from airlines with MAX planes, higher load factors and booming revenue management systems. In a totally fair world they should hand out part of their extra profit to Boeing, but that's not gonna happen.

Also airlines with MAX fleet enjoy higher load factors and higher average ticket prices than what would have been the case if 500 MAX planes world wide were flying instead of parked. They will conveniently forget to subtract that when they finally present their grounding bill to Boeing.

Airlines with no MAX should compensate Boeing for their fortune? Perhaps Airbus should compensate Boeing for the extra A321 orders and the dead should pay Boeing for the privilege of being killed in a MAX.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:33 am

flyingphil wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2019/07/11/five-basic-facts-about-boeing-missing-from-coverage-of-the-737-max-story/

A reminder, if you needed it, about how vital Boeing is to the US economy.
The pressure on Boeing and the FAA to rush the 737MAX back into the air must be immense.


There is another factor at play though, so far the FAA is leading global authority in aviation matters, if the MAX story ends with even the slightest doubt in the trustworthiness, independence and safety culture of the FAA, this will change and competing authorities will reach an equal status.
 
bgm
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:38 am

seahawk wrote:
flyingphil wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2019/07/11/five-basic-facts-about-boeing-missing-from-coverage-of-the-737-max-story/

A reminder, if you needed it, about how vital Boeing is to the US economy.
The pressure on Boeing and the FAA to rush the 737MAX back into the air must be immense.


There is another factor at play though, so far the FAA is leading global authority in aviation matters, if the MAX story ends with even the slightest doubt in the trustworthiness, independence and safety culture of the FAA, this will change and competing authorities will reach an equal status.


The FAA’a reputation is already junk (at least outside the US) for allowing this clearly unsafe airplane to be certified in the first place. Not to mention the dubious honor of being the last agency to ground it.
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
snasteve
Posts: 65
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:07 am

Dieuwer wrote:
CitiGroup: "Boeing's 737 MAX needs to return to service by Q4 or else airlines could make plans without the jet for summer 2020."

https://www.investors.com/news/boeing-7 ... n-warning/


Not much of a lawsuit. Mind you that anybody is free to file suit for anything, winning is of course another matter. Since the passenger was not injured, predict this lawsuit will fail and the request for class action status will be denied.
 
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par13del
Posts: 8910
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:50 pm

seahawk wrote:
There is another factor at play though, so far the FAA is leading global authority in aviation matters, if the MAX story ends with even the slightest doubt in the trustworthiness, independence and safety culture of the FAA, this will change and competing authorities will reach an equal status.

Go back to the second Gulf War and now this issue, the USA has lost a lot of credibility in the world the last few years, Trump an out-spoken president now resides in the White House and now this MAX issue.
Kick someone when they are down, are there reasons to be "shy" of the FAA as it relates to the MAX, sure, but ask your self this question, when did the US Congress and the FAA start out-sourcing to Boeing, hint it did not start with the MAX certification. Recall the 787 battery issue, we can say there were no fatalities on the 787 so there is a difference, but we are now into a second thread so by now we should be into more specifics versus emotions.
Its A.Net, so a lot of posters just read now and mostly do not comment.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:55 pm

par13del wrote:
seahawk wrote:
There is another factor at play though, so far the FAA is leading global authority in aviation matters, if the MAX story ends with even the slightest doubt in the trustworthiness, independence and safety culture of the FAA, this will change and competing authorities will reach an equal status.

Go back to the second Gulf War and now this issue, the USA has lost a lot of credibility in the world the last few years, Trump an out-spoken president now resides in the White House and now this MAX issue.
Kick someone when they are down, are there reasons to be "shy" of the FAA as it relates to the MAX, sure, but ask your self this question, when did the US Congress and the FAA start out-sourcing to Boeing, hint it did not start with the MAX certification. Recall the 787 battery issue, we can say there were no fatalities on the 787 so there is a difference, but we are now into a second thread so by now we should be into more specifics versus emotions.
Its A.Net, so a lot of posters just read now and mostly do not comment.


I think politics should be left out of the debate and with the 787 nobody doubted the way the FAA worked, they might have not agreed on the assessment made, but the way how they came to their decision was reasonable. Nothing was against agreed standards. This is different with MCAS. So if the FAA does not want to be seen as the left hand of Boeing, they better do it right.
 
ubeema
Posts: 372
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:47 pm

planecane wrote:
LDRA wrote:
Firing working level technical staff solves zero issue. They need to look at Boeing corporate management, the ones that are company officers

Unless it is shown that corporate management made the call on the MCAS design I disagree. It is most likely engineers and engineering managers that made the choices.

If management gave the directive for minimal differences but the engineers and engineering managers didn't alert them to compromises being made, it isn't the fault of the people that made the "ask" it is the fault of the people that didn't bring up concerns.

This! Controls 101. If I’m a Director (i.e: Board) and questioning the actions of officers (i.e: management) I would ask them what controls they put in place to make sure Engineering executes as directed. This is why the buck stops with Management, but this world is unfair and Management would throw employees under the bus when SHTF.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 21213
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:42 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
New subject: There are also companies which are earning millions on the MAX grounding. Airlines with no MAX planes enjoy decreased competition from airlines with MAX planes, higher load factors and booming revenue management systems. In a totally fair world they should hand out part of their extra profit to Boeing, but that's not gonna happen.

Also airlines with MAX fleet enjoy higher load factors and higher average ticket prices than what would have been the case if 500 MAX planes world wide were flying instead of parked. They will conveniently forget to subtract that when they finally present their grounding bill to Boeing.

And as I posted earlier, there is a fear that the market adjusts to this new constrained market, then all the MAXes that have been made over the last several months along with the ones made before the grounding stream back in to the market along with the on going production of competing models, and the resulting flood causes a glut, which usually gets resolved via lower prices and lower profits for airlines.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Revelation
Posts: 21213
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:46 pm

WSJ ( https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1150405248822980610 ) tweets:

Boeing 737 MAX grounding could stretch into 2020 as company executives, FAA engineers and regulators expand safety analyses

Sounds ominous.

Article ( https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-737 ... 1563112801 ) is behind a paywall.

Anyone got a link that isn't behind a paywall?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own

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