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Francoflier
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:38 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
If Boeing is able to satisfy all established FAA requirements then the FAA will have no choice but to put it back on the air. What you or anyone else thinks is immaterial.


Hmmm... I believe the EASA, CAAC, CASA, et. al. will very much have a material opinion. I'm pretty certain that the FAA will not clear the MAX until all other agencies are happy with it too. The optics of an FAA-only clearance would be interesting, to say the least, in light of the loss of trust.

Not to mention that without a Worldwide thumbs up, no airline would take delivery and no one would insure it.
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:58 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Will Boeing NIX the MAX 10 in favor of the NSA and 797? It kind of makes sense to.

They have signed contracts to deliver the MAX 10 and they have already built the fuselage for the first one.

It kind of doesn't make sense to nix the MAX 10.

It kind of makes sense for Boeing to fix what the regulators say needs to be fixed and move forward from there.

Francoflier wrote:
The greater irony and hypocrisy here has to be a government which, for decades now, has cut budgets and entertained lobbyists who demand less regulations, only to turn on the very administration it crippled when the sh*t inevitably hit the fan.

Seems the blame game is in full swing on this thread.

'Victory has many fathers, defeat has none'.

In the end it was Boeing who paid the lobbyists to get delegated regulation, right?

They wanted delegated regulation, they also get delegated responsibility.

flyingphil wrote:
flyingphil wrote:
China Southern suspends Boeing 737 Max order

China Southern Airlines has suspended its order for as many as 64 Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft.

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/news/chin ... rder-18876

Now retracting the story .. saying he was ‘mis-quoted’

https://paxex.aero/2019/07/china-southe ... er-cancel/

Aww you're spoiling so many people's enjoyment...
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Francoflier
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:18 pm

Revelation wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
The greater irony and hypocrisy here has to be a government which, for decades now, has cut budgets and entertained lobbyists who demand less regulations, only to turn on the very administration it crippled when the sh*t inevitably hit the fan.

Seems the blame game is in full swing on this thread.

'Victory has many fathers, defeat has none'.

In the end it was Boeing who paid the lobbyists to get delegated regulation, right?

They wanted delegated regulation, they also get delegated responsibility.


I fully agree. Boeing wanted to take that responsibility on themselves and abused it. This is all on them.
But seeing lawmakers going after the FAA and pretend to be outraged when the very political system they preside allowed that transfer of responsibility in the first place gives me a cynical chuckle.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Planetalk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:35 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
The greater irony and hypocrisy here has to be a government which, for decades now, has cut budgets and entertained lobbyists who demand less regulations, only to turn on the very administration it crippled when the sh*t inevitably hit the fan.

Seems the blame game is in full swing on this thread.

'Victory has many fathers, defeat has none'.

In the end it was Boeing who paid the lobbyists to get delegated regulation, right?

They wanted delegated regulation, they also get delegated responsibility.


I fully agree. Boeing wanted to take that responsibility on themselves and abused it. This is all on them.
But seeing lawmakers going after the FAA and pretend to be outraged when the very political system they preside allowed that transfer of responsibility in the first place gives me a cynical chuckle.


To be fair to lawmakers, they have only given the people what they want. With the constant disparaging of anything government in the US, demand for it to get out of the way, reduce regulations, that government interference is socialism blah blah blah,is anyone surprised. Of course as soon as there are consequences the public all start demanding the government does something and criticising it for failing in its duty. he government can't win there. Hopefully people will think twice in future before demanding less regulation of everything. Regulation isn't anti-capitalism, it is necessary for capitalism to function effectively.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:35 pm

Francoflier wrote:
I fully agree. Boeing wanted to take that responsibility on themselves and abused it. This is all on them.
But seeing lawmakers going after the FAA and pretend to be outraged when the very political system they preside allowed that transfer of responsibility in the first place gives me a cynical chuckle.

Well said.

My cynicism equally applies to US corporations and the US Congress.

My sense of irony fully engages when I realize the only real way to reign in greedy corporations are massive law suits filed by equally greedy lawyers when corporations take their greed a step too far.

Capitalism, hurray!
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:53 pm

asdf wrote:
It would be really great if someone made the effort to summarize the facts from the existing MAX groundig threads


It would. Go for it...
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Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:58 pm

Okay whatever went wrong we need a fresh start. Where is that coming from? What are we waiting for? Is there any full solution in the making and what are the official issues to be dealt with before the grounding is ended? It is a bit frustrating to get no idea where this is headed to. Who has control? Talk to us please.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:59 pm

I think it will fly in October the latest.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:03 pm

Planetalk wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Revelation wrote:

Seems the blame game is in full swing on this thread.

'Victory has many fathers, defeat has none'.

In the end it was Boeing who paid the lobbyists to get delegated regulation, right?

They wanted delegated regulation, they also get delegated responsibility.


I fully agree. Boeing wanted to take that responsibility on themselves and abused it. This is all on them.
But seeing lawmakers going after the FAA and pretend to be outraged when the very political system they preside allowed that transfer of responsibility in the first place gives me a cynical chuckle.


To be fair to lawmakers, they have only given the people what they want. With the constant disparaging of anything government in the US, demand for it to get out of the way, reduce regulations, that government interference is socialism blah blah blah,is anyone surprised. Of course as soon as there are consequences the public all start demanding the government does something and criticising it for failing in its duty. he government can't win there. Hopefully people will think twice in future before demanding less regulation of everything. Regulation isn't anti-capitalism, it is necessary for capitalism to function effectively.


Cant give any sympathy to our congress critters. They didnt care then, they dont care now. They put on the faux outrage for political points with their constituents. If they really cared, they would find a way in our over 4 trillion dollar budget to address the situation. But they have too many wars to fund and mouths to feed.
 
mmo
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:03 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
[
'Facts' are incorrect. Only Max 8 and a few Max 9 were flying - all with MCAS. The problem is related to the tendency for the engine nacelles to give lift and 'lighten' the yoke when in climb - not specifically CG. MCAS V1.0 was intended to act at any point in manual flight with AOA trip exceeded, in AOA fault condition it operates in all manual flight conditions. Pilots nor much anyone else were aware MCAS existed let alone the measures needed to protect themselves. None of the Boeing NNCs applicable recommended RTB for single side stick shaker funnily enough, it was only the flight that continued with single side stick shaker (and did not attempt a high speed banked turn back) that did not crash. Manual trim was patently not doable in the ET case. In relation to throttle, I think you are trying to refer to ET not LionAir and it is not clear if autothrottle was engaged.

Surprised that an instructor would go out of his way to spread miss-information.

Ray


I stand corrected, I recall reading MCAS was only on the MAX8. But I resent the accusation that I intentionally went out of my way "spread miss-information". Glad you never made a mistake, you are a better man than I am. Go back and read my post, I was quick to point out I had never flown the 737!

You have written you flew all versions of Boeing aircraft, you're telling me the trim wheel in manual trim works differently in the 737 than the 727? In the sim and once in the aircraft we did manual trim and manual reversion on an annual basis. Speed is the key, the slower you get, the easier it is to manipulate the trim wheel.
"
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:06 pm

Noshow wrote:
Okay whatever went wrong we need a fresh start. Where is that coming from? What are we waiting for? Is there any full solution in the making and what are the official issues to be dealt with before the grounding is ended? It is a bit frustrating to get no idea where this is headed to. Who has control? Talk to us please.

Read the AvWeek article, it does not require a login, and the tail end of the article gives a good summary of where things are at.

No one entity is in control so no one can say where things are heading.

Clearly Boeing thinks they are close to a fix being submitted to FAA.

Clearly FAA and other regulators are fully engaged in the process.

The contents of the package should be no surprise to any of the regulators.

How long it takes to approve the package and unground the fleet worldwide is anyone's guess.
Last edited by Revelation on Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:06 pm

Manual flight with flaps up is the condition for MCAS 1.0 to begin it's work.
 
mmo
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:09 pm

seahawk wrote:

The problem is that a normal runaway trim creates a constant trim input and manual electric trim would have no effect.

With the MCAS it makes short but strong trim inputs separated by longer time intervals of no input at all, manual electric trim works.

Now at least the LION air crew did not even know that MCAS existed nor how it worked.


Again, I have not flown the 737, but I have flown the 727 with the last flight over 28 years ago. It is my understanding of the MCAS it uses the stab trim electric motor, so if you turn off the electric trim switches on the pedestal under the red guarded switches that depowers the electric system leaving only manual trim. The indications should have looked the same as the trim wheel is moving without any pilot input. MCAS knowledge or not, that is not normal.
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Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:10 pm

Avweek is not what I had hoped for but someone inside the process be it Boeing or the FAA. There are so many new topics coming up all the time. I'm not sure about a return. The biggest real world indicators for concern are airlines not planing with major MAX fleets in 2020 anymore and resizing their staff.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:15 pm

mmo wrote:
seahawk wrote:

The problem is that a normal runaway trim creates a constant trim input and manual electric trim would have no effect.

With the MCAS it makes short but strong trim inputs separated by longer time intervals of no input at all, manual electric trim works.

Now at least the LION air crew did not even know that MCAS existed nor how it worked.


Again, I have not flown the 737, but I have flown the 727 with the last flight over 28 years ago. It is my understanding of the MCAS it uses the stab trim electric motor, so if you turn off the electric trim switches on the pedestal under the red guarded switches that depowers the electric system leaving only manual trim. The indications should have looked the same as the trim wheel is moving without any pilot input. MCAS knowledge or not, that is not normal.


The STS trim system does that anyway and that is pretty normal in a 737BNG and younger.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:16 pm

Elementalism wrote:
Cant give any sympathy to our congress critters. They didnt care then, they dont care now. They put on the faux outrage for political points with their constituents. If they really cared, they would find a way in our over 4 trillion dollar budget to address the situation. But they have too many wars to fund and mouths to feed.

I think the common thing between US corporations and US Congress is they don't want a fair and level playing field.

Congressmen want to look fair and impartial, but to gain a leg up on anyone who could replace them they use the power of their incumbency to grab the cash they need to swing elections by taking corporate campaign 'donations' that put their impartiality into doubt.

Corporations want the implied blessing they get by being regulated / certified by government organizations, but they use their financial muscle to coerce Congress into giving them as much control over the regulatory process as they can get, and also minimizing that process as much as possible.
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mmo
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:20 pm

Since people have questioned my use of the manual trim and uncommanded MCAS. Have a look at http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm

Obviously, Boeing doesn't know about the experts on here and have also recommended using the Runaway Stabilizer Trim checklist to handle an MCAS uncommanded input.

Let's see how many people will admit they were mistaken!!!!
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SelseyBill
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:22 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
The court of public opinion will have no bearing on whether the 73M returns to service.
Interesting viewpoint. Airlines around the world are very conscious of the views of their customers and public, and that problem will be focussed onto their national authorities. If they then refuse to book on MAX flights in the future en-masse, it'll be a bigger problem for Boeing than you seem to think.......

TTailedTiger wrote:
..........they have no voice on any other civil or criminal proceeding.
.....ill be sure to let the families of the 346 dead know they have no voice in court. Im sure they'll be pleased to hear from you......

TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't know how you do things in your country but in the US do not allow kangaroo courts or mob rule.
.......thats correct, you don't. English Common Law and the laws you enjoy in the USA have more in common than you might think, and indeed they both do not feature 'kangaroo courts' or 'mob-rule'. They do both, however, have the ability for regular citizens to take to court organisations who may have acted with negligence.

TTailedTiger wrote:
If Boeing is able to satisfy all established FAA requirements then the FAA will have no choice but to put it back on the air. What you or anyone else thinks is immaterial.
Im afraid you have that the wrong way round. Boeing will not be permitted to get the MAX back into public service until the FAA is absolutely satisfied Boeing has satisfactorily met their requirements. Even then, the FAA might not then even permit MAX flight operations until other authorities have given unified worldwide clearance.
Last edited by SelseyBill on Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:45 pm

The competition has not been rocking the boat during this unusual situation. Why?

Because:

- Changes in certification requirements would affect Airbus just as much as Boeing
- Airbus' competing product is sold out for the next 7 years anyway
- New certification requirements and grandfathering rules could spark a new, costly narrowbody race. Neither Boeing or Airbus wants that, even though it might be the best thing for the flying public and the enviroment.
- If the FAA certifies the MAX, and EASA and others don't, it would create a political problem and possible trade war with sanctions, taxes and everything else. We got a small taste of what could happen during the Bombardier C-Series situation.

To summarize, Airbus wants the 737 MAX back in the air almost as much as Boeing does.

This is not an attempt to change the scope of the thread, and I think these things are relevant to the process of getting the 737 MAX fixed and back in the air.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:53 pm

giblets wrote:
This talk of just the FAA certifying the MAX whilst the rest of the world turns their nose up at it. As mentioned not only are passengers going to be asking question, some airlines will be skeptical, what about insurance companies? It's one thing to fly whilst waiting for (say chinese) certification, but to fly it when they have refused certification, sure the insurance companies will love that.
Investors?! Probably happy, their main concern is this drop in revenue from lost routes!

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

As I now work for an insurance company, I can safely say that if the legal regulators of the a/c in a country deem the a/c to be safe for commercial aviation, that is all the cover that the insurance companies need. Even if they decide to charge a premium for that a/c, it can only be so much before it is challenged in court as being unreasonable.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:55 pm

To summarize, Airbus wants the 737 MAX back in the air almost as much as Boeing does.

Airbus doesn't oppose it would be more precise.

This business and politics minded thinking must come to an end first I'd say. We are talking about aviation and aircraft with non redundant systems and people that died. So bring up the technology check everything as long as it takes and whatever it costs and bring back good old independent solid certification please. This rush leads to nowhere. Time for some U-turn.
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:08 pm

No one outside of Toulouse would benefit, if the present Duopol chance to a Airbus Monopol.

BA needs to fix that MAX mess asap

But that seems not to be that easy after all that fail assessments
 
elagightinso
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:11 pm

There is nothing wrong with using single sensor, STS also relies on single air speed signal. The key is to limit control authority so that elevator still can overpower stab in fault condition

www.booksmedicos.info
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:12 pm

If we would be close to some solution now one could talk about it because the final concept would be ready. Instead airlines change their MAX-planning for next year. Not good.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:18 pm

mmo wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
[
'Facts' are incorrect. Only Max 8 and a few Max 9 were flying - all with MCAS. The problem is related to the tendency for the engine nacelles to give lift and 'lighten' the yoke when in climb - not specifically CG. MCAS V1.0 was intended to act at any point in manual flight with AOA trip exceeded, in AOA fault condition it operates in all manual flight conditions. Pilots nor much anyone else were aware MCAS existed let alone the measures needed to protect themselves. None of the Boeing NNCs applicable recommended RTB for single side stick shaker funnily enough, it was only the flight that continued with single side stick shaker (and did not attempt a high speed banked turn back) that did not crash. Manual trim was patently not doable in the ET case. In relation to throttle, I think you are trying to refer to ET not LionAir and it is not clear if autothrottle was engaged.

Surprised that an instructor would go out of his way to spread miss-information.

Ray


I stand corrected, I recall reading MCAS was only on the MAX8. But I resent the accusation that I intentionally went out of my way "spread miss-information". Glad you never made a mistake, you are a better man than I am. Go back and read my post, I was quick to point out I had never flown the 737!

You have written you flew all versions of Boeing aircraft, you're telling me the trim wheel in manual trim works differently in the 737 than the 727? In the sim and once in the aircraft we did manual trim and manual reversion on an annual basis. Speed is the key, the slower you get, the easier it is to manipulate the trim wheel.
"

Just relating information freely available in these threads and their links. If you give your credentials you are offering them as providing credence to your statements. If those statements are challengeable, then they should be challenged.

I would expect the same myself.

Ray
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:26 pm

Revelation wrote:


That is very good news.

Probably the biggest risk (that we know of) right now is whether the rudder cables are deemed safe from UERF or not.


You'd also wonder why are airlines grumbling about restoration of status later rather than sooner - you gotta imagine Boeing is updating them with fresher information than AvWeek!

There could be something else causing problems that we are unaware of.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:31 pm

Well one can also speculate with over 100 fully assembled a/c parked in multiple sites how long it will take Boeing to not only get the software fix uploaded to those a/c but to complete other checks and conduct all the necessary test and customer acceptance flight. In their filing they do mention something like a year to clear backlog and get the production line humming again. Unfortunately, until we hear that the fix is approved no one is too interested in speculating in how each a/c will be prepared for customer delivery, I would assume that those produced earlier in the grounding would require more time.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:46 pm

mmo wrote:
Since people have questioned my use of the manual trim and uncommanded MCAS. Have a look at http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm

Obviously, Boeing doesn't know about the experts on here and have also recommended using the Runaway Stabilizer Trim checklist to handle an MCAS uncommanded input.

Let's see how many people will admit they were mistaken!!!!


Before you declare victory, you might want to read up on the evolution of the runaway trim checklist on the 737

http://www.b737.org.uk/runawaystab.htm

Especially on the 2013 edition and the use of the word "continuously".
 
SelseyBill
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:23 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
.......'Airbus wants the 737 MAX back in the air almost as much as Boeing does'. [/i]


.....absolutely correct.......
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:38 pm

mmo wrote:
Since people have questioned my use of the manual trim and uncommanded MCAS. Have a look at http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm

Obviously, Boeing doesn't know about the experts on here and have also recommended using the Runaway Stabilizer Trim checklist to handle an MCAS uncommanded input.

Let's see how many people will admit they were mistaken!!!!


That site is not an official source (org.uk...?!) and the only place I keep seeing it quoted IS IN THESE THREADS.

Secondly, people are not going to "admit they were mistaken" since literally everything you're bringing to the table was roundly discussed and mostly dismissed in thousands and thousands of posts many months ago. So please don't come at us yet again with this "I know better than all of you" attitude. (Yes, I see the irony in saying it like that...)
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:49 pm

seahawk wrote:
mmo wrote:

2 MCAS or no MCAS the runaway stabilizer trim checklist should have covered the situation. Switching off both red guarded switches and LEAVING THEM OFF, would have rendered the MCAS inop. Someone pointed out flying with stick shaker going off might not be a good idea, I agree but that wasn't the case. .


The problem is that a normal runaway trim creates a constant trim input and manual electric trim would have no effect.

With the MCAS it makes short but strong trim inputs separated by longer time intervals of no input at all, manual electric trim works.

Now at least the LION air crew did not even know that MCAS existed nor how it worked.


I don't think 10 seconds of continuous trim input is really a "short burst." It is a myth that MCAS runaway and "normal" runaway are so different that a pilot would not be able to recognize MCAS runaway as a runaway stabilizer. I would be willing to bet that when the final reports come out that there is no discussion where the pilots discuss the possibility of runaway stabilizer and determine it isn't one because of the slightly different behavior. My opinion is that lack of focus of training for runaway stabilizer for decades due to the exceedingly rare rate of occurrence is the reason that it wasn't recognized.

Also, a "normal" runaway stabilizer does not necessarily mean that electric trim won't work. In fact, the runaway stabilizer NNC directs the pilots to use the electric trim among the first steps.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:49 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
mmo wrote:
Since people have questioned my use of the manual trim and uncommanded MCAS. Have a look at http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm

Obviously, Boeing doesn't know about the experts on here and have also recommended using the Runaway Stabilizer Trim checklist to handle an MCAS uncommanded input.

Let's see how many people will admit they were mistaken!!!!


That site is not an official source (org.uk...?!) and the only place I keep seeing it quoted IS IN THESE THREADS.

Secondly, people are not going to "admit they were mistaken" since literally everything you're bringing to the table was roundly discussed and mostly dismissed in thousands and thousands of posts many months ago. So please don't come at us yet again with this "I know better than all of you" attitude. (Yes, I see the irony in saying it like that...)


The b737.org.uk site is pretty well know and rather accurate. That MCAS page wasn't published until 21st November 2018, almost a full month after the Lion Air crash. Much of its content has also been added more recently.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:09 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
The b737.org.uk site is pretty well know and rather accurate. That MCAS page wasn't published until 21st November 2018, almost a full month after the Lion Air crash. Much of its content has also been added more recently.


Fair enough. But you have to wonder why it's been used here almost exclusively by people promoting a certain viewpoint...

And when that viewpoint has been pretty much discredited in the meantime, it's annoying to see someone spouting the same tired old stuff again.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:14 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Fair enough. But you have to wonder why it's been used here almost exclusively by people promoting a certain viewpoint...

And when that viewpoint has been pretty much discredited in the meantime, it's annoying to see someone spouting the same tired old stuff again.


It's only "discredited" by those that need to discredit it because they can't accept the facts that don't fit their viewpoint.

The website is a valuable resource that simply lays out facts. It's up to us to consume the facts.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:37 pm

planecane wrote:
seahawk wrote:
mmo wrote:

2 MCAS or no MCAS the runaway stabilizer trim checklist should have covered the situation. Switching off both red guarded switches and LEAVING THEM OFF, would have rendered the MCAS inop. Someone pointed out flying with stick shaker going off might not be a good idea, I agree but that wasn't the case. .


The problem is that a normal runaway trim creates a constant trim input and manual electric trim would have no effect.

With the MCAS it makes short but strong trim inputs separated by longer time intervals of no input at all, manual electric trim works.

Now at least the LION air crew did not even know that MCAS existed nor how it worked.


I don't think 10 seconds of continuous trim input is really a "short burst." It is a myth that MCAS runaway and "normal" runaway are so different that a pilot would not be able to recognize MCAS runaway as a runaway stabilizer. I would be willing to bet that when the final reports come out that there is no discussion where the pilots discuss the possibility of runaway stabilizer and determine it isn't one because of the slightly different behavior. My opinion is that lack of focus of training for runaway stabilizer for decades due to the exceedingly rare rate of occurrence is the reason that it wasn't recognized.

Also, a "normal" runaway stabilizer does not necessarily mean that electric trim won't work. In fact, the runaway stabilizer NNC directs the pilots to use the electric trim among the first steps.


You are right. I did overlook this. Clear cut case of crew incompetence indeed.
 
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PW100
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:52 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
And do you honestly believe the US travelling public will accept flying on an aircraft that's grounded in the rest of the world?


Many will, and those that won't accept it won't know what plane they are flying.


????
Again, you seem to have your conlcusions reversed.
Surely, when a person declines to board a MAX, by definition, that person would know what plane (s)he was supposed to be flying . . . ?
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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PW100
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
The operation was a success, but the patient died.

If we're going by what the FAA officials are saying to the Senate, one of the surgeries was a failure but the patient will live.


The problem is, the aviation world outside USA don't seem to be particular comfortable anymore that other surgeries by Boeing on the MAX were successful. And that the FAA is in as deep pooh as Boeing in terms of trust that they performed their supervision role to the those surgeries.

Since the fine FAA processes missed an obvious gaping wound like MCAS, how can the world be comfortable that they did not miss anything else? It's not a good position for a trauma patient to be in.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:05 pm

PW100 wrote:
????
Again, you seem to have your conlcusions reversed.
Surely, when a person declines to board a MAX, by definition, that person would know what plane (s)he was supposed to be flying . . . ?


????

I'm talking about those that won't accept the situation but don't have the knowledge to discern what is and isn't a MAX in order to avoid it.

PW100 wrote:
Since the fine FAA processes missed an obvious gaping wound like MCAS, how can the world be comfortable that they did not miss anything else? It's not a good position for a trauma patient to be in.


So what else should we ground? If we can't trust the FAA, there's no logical reason to limit this scrutiny to the MAX.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:06 pm

seahawk wrote:
planecane wrote:
seahawk wrote:

The problem is that a normal runaway trim creates a constant trim input and manual electric trim would have no effect.

With the MCAS it makes short but strong trim inputs separated by longer time intervals of no input at all, manual electric trim works.

Now at least the LION air crew did not even know that MCAS existed nor how it worked.


I don't think 10 seconds of continuous trim input is really a "short burst." It is a myth that MCAS runaway and "normal" runaway are so different that a pilot would not be able to recognize MCAS runaway as a runaway stabilizer. I would be willing to bet that when the final reports come out that there is no discussion where the pilots discuss the possibility of runaway stabilizer and determine it isn't one because of the slightly different behavior. My opinion is that lack of focus of training for runaway stabilizer for decades due to the exceedingly rare rate of occurrence is the reason that it wasn't recognized.

Also, a "normal" runaway stabilizer does not necessarily mean that electric trim won't work. In fact, the runaway stabilizer NNC directs the pilots to use the electric trim among the first steps.


You are right. I did overlook this. Clear cut case of crew incompetence indeed.

#3 occurs every 9.26 seconds maximum, or if interrupted by use of thumb switch, in AOA fault condition, as I read it. So please yourselves, but you can reasonably never get to #4 even if you've concluded it is a runaway.

Runaway Stabilizer <>
Condition:
Uncommanded stabilizer trim movement occurs continuously.
1 Control column. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Hold firmly
2 Autopilot (if engaged). . . . . . . . . . . . .Disengage
Do not re-engage the autopilot. Control airplane pitch attitude manually with control column and main electric trim as needed.
3 If the runaway stops:    end
--------------------------------- 
4 If the runaway continues: STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches (both) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . CUTOUT
If the runaway continues: Stabilizer trim wheel . . . . . . . . . . Grasp and hold - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
5 Stabilizer. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Trim manually
6 Anticipate trim requirements.
7 Checklist Complete Except Deferred Items


Ray
 
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par13del
Posts: 10337
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:11 pm

PW100 wrote:
The problem is, the aviation world outside USA don't seem to be particular comfortable anymore that other surgeries by Boeing on the MAX were successful. And that the FAA is in as deep pooh as Boeing in terms of trust that they performed their supervision role to the those surgeries.

Since the fine FAA processes missed an obvious gaping wound like MCAS, how can the world be comfortable that they did not miss anything else? It's not a good position for a trauma patient to be in.

I would think that those clients would simply cancel their MAX order, get their refunds and whatever penalty payments Boeing gives them and go buy some other a/c. It is not as if they just upped and changed their minds, the a/c had crashes and was / is grounded worldwide, so seems simple enough.
Others who decide to once again place their faith and trust in Boeing and the FAA will take the a/c and move on.
 
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PW100
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:14 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:
. . .

The court of public opinion will have no bearing on whether the 73M returns to service. Just as they have no voice on any other civil or criminal proceeding. I don't know how you do things in your country but in the US do not allow kangaroo courts or mob rule. If Boeing is able to satisfy all established FAA requirements then the FAA will have no choice but to put it back on the air. What you or anyone else thinks is immaterial.

Well, in my country we find courts that award Multi-multi-Million dollar compensations crawling awfully close to kangaroo courts or mob rule . . . but I disperse.

One of the problems is that the international aviation world is losing trust in FAA ability to properly oversee the MAX program. FAA going it alone approving the MAX, not paying any attention to " . . What you or anyone else thinks . . . " is probably the worst line of action FAA can take. But if they want to make sure the MAX doesn't sell outside the USA, by all means that would be the way to go.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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PW100
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:20 pm

B777LRF wrote:
mmo wrote:
Just a couple of observations:

1 People fail to realize the entire Max fleet did not have MCAS, it was only the MAX 8 and it was problematic in a very limited portion of the flight envelope. Had Boeing placed restrictions on aft CG, this forum probably wouldn't exist.


And, right there, your arguments fell completely to the floor. MCAS is integral to all Max versions and any restrictions placed on CG would have sod all effect, as an AoA vane malfunctioning high would activate MCAS at full steam, forcing the nose down regardless of where the CG was. You see the problem wasn't not so much MCAS working as intended, in a limited portion of the flight envelope. It was the inherent risk of it malfunctioning due to several issues, not least relying on a single sensor, that's the issue.

Your additional points are equally flawed.


It was my understanding too, that the MCAS flight envelope was not applicable to the -10, mainly since the aerodynamic balance has changed due to the fuselage plugs.

Further, I think you missed or misread the message of mmo. He was suggesting that if a CoG limit would have been applied to the MAX 8 in the first place (ignoring how feasable/practical such would be), there would not be any need for MCAS. If there is no MCAS, then a faulty AoA would not steer the plane into the ground. And we would not be having this discussion.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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PW100
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:32 pm

planecane wrote:
seahawk wrote:
mmo wrote:
2 MCAS or no MCAS the runaway stabilizer trim checklist should have covered the situation. Switching off both red guarded switches and LEAVING THEM OFF, would have rendered the MCAS inop. Someone pointed out flying with stick shaker going off might not be a good idea, I agree but that wasn't the case. .

The problem is that a normal runaway trim creates a constant trim input and manual electric trim would have no effect.
With the MCAS it makes short but strong trim inputs separated by longer time intervals of no input at all, manual electric trim works.
Now at least the LION air crew did not even know that MCAS existed nor how it worked.

I don't think 10 seconds of continuous trim input is really a "short burst." It is a myth that MCAS runaway and "normal" runaway are so different that a pilot would not be able to recognize MCAS runaway as a runaway stabilizer. I would be willing to bet that when the final reports come out that there is no discussion where the pilots discuss the possibility of runaway stabilizer and determine it isn't one because of the slightly different behavior. My opinion is that lack of focus of training for runaway stabilizer for decades due to the exceedingly rare rate of occurrence is the reason that it wasn't recognized.

Also, a "normal" runaway stabilizer does not necessarily mean that electric trim won't work. In fact, the runaway stabilizer NNC directs the pilots to use the electric trim among the first steps.


What does that NNC instructs when the electric trrim is working as expected?
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:34 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
seahawk wrote:
planecane wrote:

I don't think 10 seconds of continuous trim input is really a "short burst." It is a myth that MCAS runaway and "normal" runaway are so different that a pilot would not be able to recognize MCAS runaway as a runaway stabilizer. I would be willing to bet that when the final reports come out that there is no discussion where the pilots discuss the possibility of runaway stabilizer and determine it isn't one because of the slightly different behavior. My opinion is that lack of focus of training for runaway stabilizer for decades due to the exceedingly rare rate of occurrence is the reason that it wasn't recognized.

Also, a "normal" runaway stabilizer does not necessarily mean that electric trim won't work. In fact, the runaway stabilizer NNC directs the pilots to use the electric trim among the first steps.


You are right. I did overlook this. Clear cut case of crew incompetence indeed.

#3 occurs every 9.26 seconds maximum, or if interrupted by use of thumb switch, in AOA fault condition, as I read it. So please yourselves, but you can reasonably never get to #4 even if you've concluded it is a runaway.

Runaway Stabilizer <>
Condition:
Uncommanded stabilizer trim movement occurs continuously.
1 Control column. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Hold firmly
2 Autopilot (if engaged). . . . . . . . . . . . .Disengage
Do not re-engage the autopilot. Control airplane pitch attitude manually with control column and main electric trim as needed.
3 If the runaway stops:    end
--------------------------------- 
4 If the runaway continues: STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches (both) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . CUTOUT
If the runaway continues: Stabilizer trim wheel . . . . . . . . . . Grasp and hold - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
5 Stabilizer. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Trim manually
6 Anticipate trim requirements.
7 Checklist Complete Except Deferred Items


Ray


The minute the "runaway/MCAS" starts up again, #4 should be accomplished -- that simple. Pilots are paid to follow checklists and use their heads. The two are not mutually exclusive.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.” Einstein (maybe)
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:36 pm

PW100 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
mmo wrote:
Just a couple of observations:

1 People fail to realize the entire Max fleet did not have MCAS, it was only the MAX 8 and it was problematic in a very limited portion of the flight envelope. Had Boeing placed restrictions on aft CG, this forum probably wouldn't exist.


And, right there, your arguments fell completely to the floor. MCAS is integral to all Max versions and any restrictions placed on CG would have sod all effect, as an AoA vane malfunctioning high would activate MCAS at full steam, forcing the nose down regardless of where the CG was. You see the problem wasn't not so much MCAS working as intended, in a limited portion of the flight envelope. It was the inherent risk of it malfunctioning due to several issues, not least relying on a single sensor, that's the issue.

Your additional points are equally flawed.


It was my understanding too, that the MCAS flight envelope was not applicable to the -10, mainly since the aerodynamic balance has changed due to the fuselage plugs.

Further, I think you missed or misread the message of mmo. He was suggesting that if a CoG limit would have been applied to the MAX 8 in the first place (ignoring how feasable/practical such would be), there would not be any need for MCAS. If there is no MCAS, then a faulty AoA would not steer the plane into the ground. And we would not be having this discussion.

The issue leading to the introduction of MCAS was the lift produced by the nacelles rather than the CoG specifically according to reports. So it would seem not.

Ray
 
TTailedTiger
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:41 pm

Francoflier wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If Boeing is able to satisfy all established FAA requirements then the FAA will have no choice but to put it back on the air. What you or anyone else thinks is immaterial.


Hmmm... I believe the EASA, CAAC, CASA, et. al. will very much have a material opinion. I'm pretty certain that the FAA will not clear the MAX until all other agencies are happy with it too. The optics of an FAA-only clearance would be interesting, to say the least, in light of the loss of trust.

Not to mention that without a Worldwide thumbs up, no airline would take delivery and no one would insure it.


Those agencies would be very foolish to withhold certification if Boeing fixes all issues. The FAA could turn around and do the same thing. Maybe the FAA would decide they need to go over the A320neo again since they missed things on the 73M. What you are suggesting is a dangerous game.
 
StTim
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:46 pm

It is also a dangerous game for the FAA to certify if the other agencies are not ready to also certify. I do not think (at least from EASA) that there will be pettiness but I also do not think they will be bullied into certification.
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:53 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
seahawk wrote:

You are right. I did overlook this. Clear cut case of crew incompetence indeed.

#3 occurs every 9.26 seconds maximum, or if interrupted by use of thumb switch, in AOA fault condition, as I read it. So please yourselves, but you can reasonably never get to #4 even if you've concluded it is a runaway.

Runaway Stabilizer <>
Condition:
Uncommanded stabilizer trim movement occurs continuously.
1 Control column. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Hold firmly
2 Autopilot (if engaged). . . . . . . . . . . . .Disengage
Do not re-engage the autopilot. Control airplane pitch attitude manually with control column and main electric trim as needed.
3 If the runaway stops:    end
--------------------------------- 
4 If the runaway continues: STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches (both) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . CUTOUT
If the runaway continues: Stabilizer trim wheel . . . . . . . . . . Grasp and hold - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
5 Stabilizer. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Trim manually
6 Anticipate trim requirements.
7 Checklist Complete Except Deferred Items


Ray


The minute the "runaway/MCAS" starts up again, #4 should be accomplished -- that simple. Pilots are paid to follow checklists and use their heads. The two are not mutually exclusive.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.” Einstein (maybe)

And when it achieves the desired result every time? me (maybe).

Ray
 
ArgentoSystems
Posts: 315
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:05 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:05 pm

"fundamental software redesign of 737 MAX flight controls"
I don't get it. They are talking about fundamental s/w redesign, and at the same time insist on completion is September. Are they nuts?

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -controls/
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1756
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:06 pm

seahawk wrote:
planecane wrote:
seahawk wrote:

The problem is that a normal runaway trim creates a constant trim input and manual electric trim would have no effect.

With the MCAS it makes short but strong trim inputs separated by longer time intervals of no input at all, manual electric trim works.

Now at least the LION air crew did not even know that MCAS existed nor how it worked.


I don't think 10 seconds of continuous trim input is really a "short burst." It is a myth that MCAS runaway and "normal" runaway are so different that a pilot would not be able to recognize MCAS runaway as a runaway stabilizer. I would be willing to bet that when the final reports come out that there is no discussion where the pilots discuss the possibility of runaway stabilizer and determine it isn't one because of the slightly different behavior. My opinion is that lack of focus of training for runaway stabilizer for decades due to the exceedingly rare rate of occurrence is the reason that it wasn't recognized.

Also, a "normal" runaway stabilizer does not necessarily mean that electric trim won't work. In fact, the runaway stabilizer NNC directs the pilots to use the electric trim among the first steps.


You are right. I did overlook this. Clear cut case of crew incompetence indeed.


Right - because Boeing had been so forthcoming and transparent with max pilots about mcas, which would have helped them diagnose the problem in the first place. What a joke!

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