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WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:14 pm

seahawk wrote:
I do not see a reason to doubt Boeing, they gain nothing by a too optimistic schedule and they have the knowledge, resources and competence to even beat their own deadlines. Boeing always delivers.


They even and regularly under promise on delays :-))))))))
Murphy is an optimist
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:18 pm

asdf wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
If that dual channel operation is not limited to MCAS alone, but instead is anything approaching the entirety of FCC capabilities, then airlines can completely forget about 2019 return to service. It'll be 12 months minimum from when the work started - they simply won't have enough people available that understand the architecture deeply enough to go any quicker and keep it safe. If significant chunks of the FCC OS and AS are being re-architected then I'm not even sure I'd see a 2020 return to service as realistic either.


boeing is building full FBW planes since decades
the 7x7 is all FBW
they dont need to invent the wheel for new

i really dont understand why such a world leading group like boeing didnt set up a big (!) team to adapt the 7x7 FBW concept on to the 737
at least after the first crash this would be a number one priority ,,.,.


Because changing the 737 to FBW would be changing the entire architecture of the flight control system. Even if they had it mimic the 737 from the pilot's perspective, they'd still be implementing new flight control computers and changing the cockpit hardware to have artificial feel, etc. If they were going to go full FBW, they might as well have done a clean sheet and then MCAS wouldn't have been needed.
 
ghtworchave
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:29 pm

So just talking to a SWA pilot they're being led to believe 2020 before they operate the jet again even if the fix is out in the fall. Is that the latest consensus is 2020?
Happy people rules. Acronyms Search engine
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:44 pm

ghtworchave wrote:
So just talking to a SWA pilot they're being led to believe 2020 before they operate the jet again even if the fix is out in the fall. Is that the latest consensus is 2020?

Led to believe? Southwest officially announced this a few weeks ago. They said it would take two months to get them back into service once the grounding was lifted. They seem to be anticipating the grounding to be lifted some time in October. That would mean they couldn't get them back to use until sometime in December. They didn't want to try and put it back on the schedule just before Christmas and risk cancellations.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:49 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
The problem appears to be the FAA. Not Boeing. As far as I have seen Boeing has been compliant and done everything in their power to to get the Max back in the air. The FAA is dragging their feet and now they are going back on systems they already approved? It sounds like the president needs to cut a few people at the FAA down to size. Bring in some real professionals who can make sure the plane is safe and get it back on the air in a timely manner.

This is the same FAA that doesn't even require all aircraft to have transponders or mandate that they be on at all times. It is quite frightening to know that ATC or TCAS can't see a potential threat. That tells me everything I need to know. They are not really concerned with safety. Just posturing.


Pray tell, how do you install a transponder on a plane that doesn’t have an electrical system. Or why does a plane in Montana need one?
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Anywayz, busy times in Seattle and I'm thankful I'm not working there right now.

Agreed. Must be a real pressure cooker.


Its a fertile breeding ground for more mistakes!
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:17 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Image

Read about "The monster of Seattle", how it killed hundreds of people and why it should NEVER ever be allowed to fly again.

https://www.spiegel.de/plus/boeing-737- ... de132096f8
And yet still people here tell us "but the public will forget about it soon" or say things such as "the average Joe had no idea what plane he is on". In today's media world, this will be easily remembered. The public will not forget.

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ACCS300
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:52 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Image

Read about "The monster of Seattle", how it killed hundreds of people and why it should NEVER ever be allowed to fly again.

https://www.spiegel.de/plus/boeing-737- ... de132096f8


Wow that is dark and bold indeed! This certainly will galvanize anti-Boeing sentiment especially in Europe.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:54 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Image

Read about "The monster of Seattle", how it killed hundreds of people and why it should NEVER ever be allowed to fly again.

https://www.spiegel.de/plus/boeing-737- ... de132096f8


Wow that is dark and bold indeed! This certainly will galvanize anti-Boeing sentiment especially in Europe.


I can't read german but I think that anti-Boeing sentiment in Europe existed already without the MAX crashes, certainly if this site is any indication!
 
Scotron12
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:05 pm

planecane wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Image

Read about "The monster of Seattle", how it killed hundreds of people and why it should NEVER ever be allowed to fly again.

https://www.spiegel.de/plus/boeing-737- ... de132096f8


Wow that is dark and bold indeed! This certainly will galvanize anti-Boeing sentiment especially in Europe.


I can't read german but I think that anti-Boeing sentiment in Europe existed already without the MAX crashes, certainly if this site is any indication!


Anti-Boeing sentiment in Europe? Care to explain how exactly there is anti-Boeing sentiment?

European airlines certainly fly a lot of Boeing aircraft so cannot be them?
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm

planecane wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Image

Read about "The monster of Seattle", how it killed hundreds of people and why it should NEVER ever be allowed to fly again.

https://www.spiegel.de/plus/boeing-737- ... de132096f8


Wow that is dark and bold indeed! This certainly will galvanize anti-Boeing sentiment especially in Europe.


I can't read german but I think that anti-Boeing sentiment in Europe existed already without the MAX crashes, certainly if this site is any indication!
Spiegel magazine is very reputable, this is no yellow press type of sensational media but a weekly magazine with good journalism. They don't spread sentiments against Boeing, just print the truth.

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AIRT0M
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:22 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
planecane wrote:

I can't read german but I think that anti-Boeing sentiment in Europe existed already without the MAX crashes, certainly if this site is any indication!


Anti-Boeing sentiment in Europe? Care to explain how exactly there is anti-Boeing sentiment?

European airlines certainly fly a lot of Boeing aircraft so cannot be them?


The author has shown his anti-Airbus (and anti-Europe) sentiment on many occasions here, so it is only natural, that he or she thinks, aviation fans in Europe automatically must be anti-Beoing.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:36 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Read about "The monster of Seattle", how it killed hundreds of people and why it should NEVER ever be allowed to fly again.

Wow that is dark and bold indeed! This certainly will galvanize anti-Boeing sentiment especially in Europe.

If so, Europe would be delegating responsibility over aviation safety to the media.

I'm not sure Airbus would be happy with such a turn of events.
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7BOEING7
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:39 pm

Noshow wrote:
Without MCAS the Pilots will have a raw flying MAX without "protection". If a 737 MAX is not FAA certifiyable without MCAS how can it be permitted to fly with MCAS disabled?
Couldn't we better take out the whole MCAS from the beginning please and let the pilots fly and trim themselves?


It can be certified because 99.9999% +/- of the envelope does not require MCAS and before MCAS activates there are other alerts/warnings the pilot would have to ignore. So having MCAS become unavailable during flight is probably less of an issue than losing an engine during an ETOPS operation.
 
SelseyBill
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:42 pm

seahawk wrote:
I do not see a reason to doubt Boeing, they gain nothing by a too optimistic schedule and they have the knowledge, resources and competence to even beat their own deadlines. Boeing always delivers.

Boeing always delivers? Wow. Just a shame there are 346 folks not around to debate you on that point.

All companies make mistakes.

Fewer companies make the same mistake twice.

Only one company; it seems; repeats the same mistakes, fails to take ownership for those mistakes, blames others for them, and then says 'they always deliver'.........

I don't believe Seahawk, you really think that there 'is no reason to doubt Boeing'...........
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:53 pm

It still annoys me no end that you insist that:

planecane wrote:
aerodynamics caused by the engine placement causes the "potential for the plane to stall during a climb"


is somehow "incorrect" when you accept that

there is the potential for it to be easier to enter a stall during certain, very rare extreme maneuvers at the edge of the certified flight envelope.


is valid.

The English language vehemently disagrees with you! The first statement is NOT negated by the second... they say the same thing except the second has more detail.

It's like saying "the sky may sometimes appear blue in the absence of cloud cover" is okay, while "the sky can be blue" is - for reasons undefined - "wrong".
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:07 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
planecane wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:

Wow that is dark and bold indeed! This certainly will galvanize anti-Boeing sentiment especially in Europe.


I can't read german but I think that anti-Boeing sentiment in Europe existed already without the MAX crashes, certainly if this site is any indication!


Anti-Boeing sentiment in Europe? Care to explain how exactly there is anti-Boeing sentiment?

European airlines certainly fly a lot of Boeing aircraft so cannot be them?


In scope of observable US media overstatements and projected "anti" sentiments I'd see the Spiegel article as absolute "mild".
( And they haven't really understood what they are writing about. lots of detail miss attributions.
Jon Ostrower or Dominic Gates have vastly better understanding.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:29 pm

SelseyBill wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I do not see a reason to doubt Boeing, they gain nothing by a too optimistic schedule and they have the knowledge, resources and competence to even beat their own deadlines. Boeing always delivers.

Boeing always delivers? Wow. Just a shame there are 346 folks not around to debate you on that point.

All companies make mistakes.

Fewer companies make the same mistake twice.

Only one company; it seems; repeats the same mistakes, fails to take ownership for those mistakes, blames others for them, and then says 'they always deliver'.........

I don't believe Seahawk, you really think that there 'is no reason to doubt Boeing'...........


There is a difference for me between doubting them and expecting them to deliver. As an airline CEO I would not schedule my MAX fleet for the holiday season at the moment, but I would still expect Boeing to deliver on their promises. As a shareholder I expect them to deliver and as a professional I expect them to deliver too. This is not a matter of confidence but a matter of expectation towards one of the world´s biggest aviation firms. Everybody should expect them to deliver.

And regarding the industry in Europe. I think most decision makers are rather pro-Boeing and not pro-Airbus, as nearly everyone in his mid 40ies and older probably still came to the industry in time of Boeing domination and most will have worked on a Boeing.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:38 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
It still annoys me no end that you insist that:

planecane wrote:
aerodynamics caused by the engine placement causes the "potential for the plane to stall during a climb"


is somehow "incorrect" when you accept that

there is the potential for it to be easier to enter a stall during certain, very rare extreme maneuvers at the edge of the certified flight envelope.


is valid.

The English language vehemently disagrees with you! The first statement is NOT negated by the second... they say the same thing except the second has more detail.

It's like saying "the sky may sometimes appear blue in the absence of cloud cover" is okay, while "the sky can be blue" is - for reasons undefined - "wrong".


The insistence is there because otherwise it would be a denial of truth. Words matter in this industry. The first statement isn't an accurate one, and as such it's highly misleading, doing the public a big disfavor.

planecane wrote:
I can't read german but I think that anti-Boeing sentiment in Europe existed already without the MAX crashes, certainly if this site is any indication!


Agree, this just gave them fuel to burn.
Last edited by MSPNWA on Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:41 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
The insistence is there because otherwise it would be a denial of truth. Words matter in this industry. The first statement isn't an accurate one, and as such it's highly misleading, doing the public a big disfavor.


What is inaccurate about it?
 
TaromA380
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:49 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Image

Read about "The monster of Seattle", how it killed hundreds of people and why it should NEVER ever be allowed to fly again.

https://www.spiegel.de/plus/boeing-737- ... de132096f8

Anyone got to read the article?
I'm interested especially in the "why it should NEVER ever be allowed to fly again" part. It is an extremist statement, out of what? Does the journalist have some clue that the Max is impossible to fix, or it's just a cheap speculation?
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:50 pm

planecane wrote:
flyingphil wrote:
I have been wondering about this myself..

“346 People Have Died on Boeing’s Newest Jet. Why the Hell Does the CEO Still Have a Job?”
https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-the-h ... ax-scandal

A change in leadership is overdue at Boeing
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... at-boeing/



These articles could have been written by stitching together a lot of the posts in this thread (and its predecessors).

Regardless, they should at least get the facts correct. The first article blames Muilenburg for oversight of the MAX development when he wasn't on the commercial side until he became CEO (with responsibility for the whole company), which was less than a year before the first flight and many years past when the decisions were made that led to the necessity of MCAS.

The second article says that aerodynamics caused by the engine placement causes the "potential for the plane to stall during a climb" which is incorrect. That statement insinuates that there could be stalls during routine operations. The truth is that there is the potential for it to be easier to enter a stall during certain, very rare extreme maneuvers at the edge of the certified flight envelope.

Had Boeing just put the MCAS software in for the certification flights and then removed it before the model entered service, it is very likely that issue caused by the engine size and placement would have never led to a stall. The WSJ (I think) report detailed that the "old school" test pilot that wasn't happy that software would be used to solve the issue indicated that he was OK with MCAS because he felt that the situations where it would activate were so rare that it might never activate in service.

I have no view on when Muilenburg should go . However, I would make the following points for balance:

Muilenburg was the incumbent when MCAS V1.0 was designed, the SSA was not updated and when MCAS was not disclosed. Muilenburg was the incumbent when the dangerous nature of the system was exposed by the first crash and the A/C was not grounded. Muilenburg was the incumbent when the A/C was not grounded immediately following the second crash. Muilenburg is the incumbent and it is the incumbent that carries the can. It is quite likely that Muilenburg will go, with the usual golden handshake, when MAX is back flying and the new man can come in with a clean slate, and not because his hands are clean.

On your second paragraph, its just splitting hairs and don't forget, with AOA failed high, MCAS is active in any manual, flaps up regime.

On the final paragraph you are suggesting illegally removing functionality instead of just being incompetent. The 'old school' test pilot reported comment was in relation to the satisfactorily implemented MCAS version 0.0. At least one test pilot appeared to be horrified by V1.0 implementation.

Ray
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:02 pm

SelseyBill wrote:
Not specifically to aviation, but also including historically the likes of Exxon Valdez and the Bhopal tragedy in India. Massive PR failings all. Even though BP pretty much owned up to responsibility for Deepwater Horizon, American sub-contractors like Haliburton lied and kicked and screamed their way to court, denying any responsibility. This sort of thing sticks in the mind of Europeans, and is exactly what we have seen from Boeing, with their own leaders (rightly) enjoying the benefits of their successful business, but initially shrinking like violets in the face of corporate adversity. In business; it is not often what yo do, but often what you are seen be to doing. In short, American companies 'have previous' when it comes to denying corporate responsibility, and thats why the rest of the world is paying high attention to the MAX 'fix' with a slightly dis-trusting eye.

Does Dieselgate stick in the mind of Europeans?

SelseyBill wrote:
Boeing is a proud US company with thousands of extremely competent folks and builds great planes with a high percentage of exports, but its senior management really does have a lot of work to do on healing the way Boeing is perceived by the rest of the world. I have no doubt the fantastic engineers at Boeing will fix the MAX, but Boeings' leadership and its relationship to the FAA will be much more difficult to fix.

I'd have to think that after McNearney's long run pretty much all of Boeing's management above the first level needs a good vetting, and Congress needs to reverse rules allowing Boeing managers to manage designated engineers.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Checklist787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:07 pm

oschkosch wrote:
planecane wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:

Wow that is dark and bold indeed! This certainly will galvanize anti-Boeing sentiment especially in Europe.


I can't read german but I think that anti-Boeing sentiment in Europe existed already without the MAX crashes, certainly if this site is any indication!
Spiegel magazine is very reputable, this is no yellow press type of sensational media but a weekly magazine with good journalism. They don't spread sentiments against Boeing, just print the truth.

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The truth has already been said.

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Amiga500
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:12 pm

Revelation wrote:
Does Dieselgate stick in the mind of Europeans?


It does in my head.

Have to admit, don't think it does in most others. Probably because it was limited to them cheating in the US.

If it had happened in Europe, then it would be much more central to people's thoughts.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:20 pm

It happened in Europe as well. But here nobody got reimbursed by the carmakers. However latest car sales seem to indicate diesel car sales recovering at least in Germany.
 
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PW100
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:21 pm

planecane wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Image

Read about "The monster of Seattle", how it killed hundreds of people and why it should NEVER ever be allowed to fly again.

https://www.spiegel.de/plus/boeing-737- ... de132096f8


Wow that is dark and bold indeed! This certainly will galvanize anti-Boeing sentiment especially in Europe.


I can't read german but I think that anti-Boeing sentiment in Europe existed already without the MAX crashes, certainly if this site is any indication!


I think you'll find the anti-Boeing sentiment of this particular publication is fairly matched to the anti-Airbus sentiment . . . :

https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/suspicions-of-bribery-throw-shadow-over-airbus-a-1260324.html

https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/airbus-corruption-scandal-threatens-ceo-tom-enders-a-1171533.htmlp
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Ertro
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:22 pm

Revelation wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:
Not specifically to aviation, but also including historically the likes of Exxon Valdez and the Bhopal tragedy in India. Massive PR failings all. Even though BP pretty much owned up to responsibility for Deepwater Horizon, American sub-contractors like Haliburton lied and kicked and screamed their way to court, denying any responsibility. This sort of thing sticks in the mind of Europeans, and is exactly what we have seen from Boeing, with their own leaders (rightly) enjoying the benefits of their successful business, but initially shrinking like violets in the face of corporate adversity. In business; it is not often what yo do, but often what you are seen be to doing. In short, American companies 'have previous' when it comes to denying corporate responsibility, and thats why the rest of the world is paying high attention to the MAX 'fix' with a slightly dis-trusting eye.

Does Dieselgate stick in the mind of Europeans?


I see Dieselgate as something that supports SelseyBill's opinion.

Here is one article of how Volkswagen apologized.
https://www.theverge.com/transportation ... newspapers
Additionally there have been firings of several most senior technical executives as well as CEO stepping down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswage ... ember_2015

All stuff that Boeing and other Americans are in every case fighting not to do.
So there is a clear difference between european and american culture in accepting responsibility.
Last edited by Ertro on Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:22 pm

TaromA380 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Image

Read about "The monster of Seattle", how it killed hundreds of people and why it should NEVER ever be allowed to fly again.

https://www.spiegel.de/plus/boeing-737- ... de132096f8

Anyone got to read the article?
I'm interested especially in the "why it should NEVER ever be allowed to fly again" part. It is an extremist statement, out of what? Does the journalist have some clue that the Max is impossible to fix, or it's just a cheap speculation?

Your first line says it all. No more than one or two posters have actually read this article, but many line up to condemn it anyway, similarly to the Panorama programme where many condemned without watching just because it may not suit their line. You put a line in quotes? Do you actually know this is a correct quote? and in any case, what stings about a view held by a German journalist that has been expressed before by others?

Ray
 
marcelh
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
Does Dieselgate stick in the mind of Europeans?

It does and as a result diesel is becoming less popular.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:31 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
767333ER wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

Lol, Boeing is not going to go bankrupt.

Yes whether it be though defense contracts, bail out, or whatever else they may try the government Republican or Democrat would have to ensure Boeing doesn’t go bankrupt otherwise they’d be in trouble... so you’re right


So how many times are you going to respond to me? Not even going to bother with your comments.

My original reply which was the same got deleted for no reason so I apologize for that.

I like to call BS when I see it and fanboys usually spread that on here, but in this case I was saying you were right, I don’t see any way Boeing could go bankrupt.
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MrBretz
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:33 pm

I am a Boeing fan. I think the CEO and some top engineering VPs and managers have to go. They were responsible. And they are paid generously and by the size of this fiasco deserve the boot. And the guy who said “make a safe plane safer” needs to be.....sorry, I have no polite words for that individual.
 
olle
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:38 pm

The problem is that now it is not MAX falling out of the sky anymore. It is 737. And anyone connects yhe pictures with their flight to spain on Ryanair.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:46 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Without MCAS the Pilots will have a raw flying MAX without "protection". If a 737 MAX is not FAA certifiyable without MCAS how can it be permitted to fly with MCAS disabled?
Couldn't we better take out the whole MCAS from the beginning please and let the pilots fly and trim themselves?


It can be certified because 99.9999% +/- of the envelope does not require MCAS and before MCAS activates there are other alerts/warnings the pilot would have to ignore. So having MCAS become unavailable during flight is probably less of an issue than losing an engine during an ETOPS operation.

If that was true, MCAS would not have been a clandestine MAX feature. MCAS was incorporated for a reason. During test flying, it's authority was extended covertly. Did Boeing forget to inform, or chose not to disclose?

Dismissive statements on MAX issues from Boeing personnel working on other models, should and will be red flags to airworthiness authorities to widen the scope of their investigations to other models.
Last edited by smartplane on Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:54 pm

Ertro wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Does Dieselgate stick in the mind of Europeans?

I see Dieselgate as something that supports SelseyBill's opinion.

To be clear, I wasn't trying to refute SelseyBill's post which was quite good, I was genuinely interested in where Dieselgate falls in the spectrum of cases he listed.

Ertro wrote:
Here is one article of how Volkswagen apologized.
https://www.theverge.com/transportation ... newspapers
Additionally there have been firings of several most senior technical executives as well as CEO stepping down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswage ... ember_2015

All stuff that Boeing and other Americans are in every case fighting not to do.
So there is a clear difference between european and american culture in accepting responsibility.

There's a clear difference between european and american legal systems too.

There's pretty much no limit in US liability cases, so pretty much every US business is going to go to lengths to avoid taking responsibility.

It's relatively acceptable to admit an unintentional shortcoming ("we put too much workload on the pilots") or excess corporate greed, but it's disastrous to admit an overt act ("we installed a defeat device").

As above, the likely outcome for Boeing's CEO is he'll take a "golden handshake" after all the smoke clears and live his life with a pile of money most of us can never dream of.

Real problems would arise if he was found to be a part of cover up.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:54 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
The insistence is there because otherwise it would be a denial of truth. Words matter in this industry. The first statement isn't an accurate one, and as such it's highly misleading, doing the public a big disfavor.


What is inaccurate about it?


Exactly!

One provides more detail - but *BOTH* talk of "potential" for stall. They are just as accurate as each other.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:59 pm

marcelh wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Does Dieselgate stick in the mind of Europeans?

It does and as a result diesel is becoming less popular.


That's an understatement... sales of diesel cars fell through the floor. Dieselgate is kickstarting the pivot to all-electric (for both consumers and manufacturers).
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:14 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
That's an understatement... sales of diesel cars fell through the floor. Dieselgate is kickstarting the pivot to all-electric (for both consumers and manufacturers).


Diesel is again gaining fast ( in Germany ):
https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article1 ... rueck.html
Murphy is an optimist
 
RogerMurdock
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:31 pm

New MCAS test flight: http://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status/ ... 7560499203

I guess the test pilots know exactly what they’re doing (and have pre-briefed procedures if severely out of trim like rock-and-roll), but I still wouldn’t like to be on a plane futzing with MCAS activation at FL100...
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:40 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Does Dieselgate stick in the mind of Europeans?

It does and as a result diesel is becoming less popular.


That's an understatement... sales of diesel cars fell through the floor. Dieselgate is kickstarting the pivot to all-electric (for both consumers and manufacturers).

Well we should also add that since environmentalist have confirmed the harm that diesel emissions cause, European governments who initially gave tax break incentives to encourage the switch to diesel are now placing penalty taxes on those same owners, so its not just the "gate" that resulted in lower sales.
 
MrBretz
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:47 pm

RogerMurdock wrote:
New MCAS test flight: http://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status/ ... 7560499203

I guess the test pilots know exactly what they’re doing (and have pre-briefed procedures if severely out of trim like rock-and-roll), but I still wouldn’t like to be on a plane futzing with MCAS activation at FL100...


She's back on the ground.....safely.
 
pugman211
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:02 pm

RogerMurdock wrote:
New MCAS test flight: http://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status/ ... 7560499203

I guess the test pilots know exactly what they’re doing (and have pre-briefed procedures if severely out of trim like rock-and-roll), but I still wouldn’t like to be on a plane futzing with MCAS activation at FL100...



Considering that it was a max 7, I'd guess it's nothing to do with MCAS.
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:17 pm

Boeing CEO to Business Travel Execs: Trust Us, 737 Max Is Safe Now

https://skift.com/2019/08/05/boeing-ceo ... -safe-now/



“This is a challenging situation and the respect and confidence of the flying public is extremely important to us,” said Muilenburg. “We know trust has been damaged over the past few months and we are working hard to re-earn that trust and rebuild that confidence for the future… I have personally flown on two of [our] flight tests. We know we have work to do and regret the impact it has had on you and the flying public.”
 
packsonflight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:18 pm

IADFCO wrote:
packsonflight wrote:
https://www.satcom.guru/2019/07/movable-stabilizer.html

Excellent article by Peter Lemme. It describes the stall characteristics of airliners, and the certifacation rules that apply.

Apparently the MAX is unstable aircraft without MCAS. It is not unstable as modern fighters are, but one can argue that stall characteristics of the MAX renders it un certifiable according to FAR 25 certification standards, but with MCAS working it meets the criteria.

So how is it possible to certify the MAX and not having to demonstrate stall behaviour with MCAS off?


Yes, the article is an interesting qualitative discussion of stall characteristics. I still don't quite understand the reason for the "stick lightening," though. The usual answer so far has been that the nacelle generates lift at a sufficiently high angle of attack, and that lift generates the extra pitching moment that the pilot does not have to generate through the stick (hence, stick lightening).

However, the nacelle is an annular airfoil, and annular airfoils tend to stall relatively late, so the CL(alpha) relationship is basically linear through the stall angle of the isolated wing and beyond (depending on the internal "airfoil like" shape of the nacelle). In other words, if this applies to the MAX as well, the nacelle lift would decrease the slope of the Cm(alpha) curve, but by the same amount for all alphas through stall and beyond, and would not cause the change in slope that we call "stick lightening".

If the NG complies with FAA regulations about the linearity of the force-alpha curve, and if (repeat, if) the nacelle has a linear behavior too, then it might be something related to something new introduced by the coupling of the engine and the wing, such as different patterns of flow separation induced by having this big engine basically in front of the leading edge of the wing. Identifying true reason for the stick lightening might be academic, but it might also have an impact of what MCAS is supposed to do.

There was a discussion on this general area in the Tecnical forum a few months ago, but it stopped before it got to this point.


Maby there is a simple answer to why MCAS was built in the first place, but I can not explane why it was so badly designed. IMO, at high AOA the huge nacelle interferes to much with the flow over the wing right be hind it, creating sudden or non linear flow separation over the wing.
With the wing loosing lift rapidly (do to flow separation), and the nacelle keeping its lift, the center of lift moves forward and closer to center of gravity, resulting in lack of linear stall characteristics or not stable enough stall characteristics according to certification standards. What ever it is, not stable enough or lack of stability, the MAX does not stall right and the none linear stick force is a result of that not the other way around.
Saying MCAS is there to compensate for lack of linear stick force is BS or PR spin (or both) when the elephant in the room is none compliant stall behaviour
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:28 pm

packsonflight wrote:

Saying MCAS is there to compensate for lack of linear stick force is BS or PR spin (or both) when the elephant in the room is none compliant stall behaviour


This!
 
SEU
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:39 pm

pugman211 wrote:
RogerMurdock wrote:
New MCAS test flight: http://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status/ ... 7560499203

I guess the test pilots know exactly what they’re doing (and have pre-briefed procedures if severely out of trim like rock-and-roll), but I still wouldn’t like to be on a plane futzing with MCAS activation at FL100...



Considering that it was a max 7, I'd guess it's nothing to do with MCAS.


It looks like stall testing at least with the speed and height fluctuations
 
SteelChair
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:27 pm

seahawk wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I do not see a reason to doubt Boeing, they gain nothing by a too optimistic schedule and they have the knowledge, resources and competence to even beat their own deadlines. Boeing always delivers.

Boeing always delivers? Wow. Just a shame there are 346 folks not around to debate you on that point.

All companies make mistakes.

Fewer companies make the same mistake twice.

Only one company; it seems; repeats the same mistakes, fails to take ownership for those mistakes, blames others for them, and then says 'they always deliver'.........

I don't believe Seahawk, you really think that there 'is no reason to doubt Boeing'...........


There is a difference for me between doubting them and expecting them to deliver. As an airline CEO I would not schedule my MAX fleet for the holiday season at the moment, but I would still expect Boeing to deliver on their promises. As a shareholder I expect them to deliver and as a professional I expect them to deliver too. This is not a matter of confidence but a matter of expectation towards one of the world´s biggest aviation firms. Everybody should expect them to deliver.


That's what is so disappointing. I used to be the biggest Boeing fan. The 767 was outstanding, Boeing literally created ETOPS with it, and then made an even better plane with the 777. Pretty much everything they've done since has been late, over budget, or a commercial failure, or in some cases, all of the above. Now, they're even unsafe. They made me (us?) doubt them. They need to start delivering. They haven't for almost 20 years. Until they do, I will continue to view them skeptically. They have squandered the confidence many had in them.
 
klkla
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:48 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Pretty much everything they've done since has been late, over budget, or a commercial failure, or in some cases, all of the above.


In all fairness the same could be said about Airbus (A380 and A350 also late), Bombardier (C-Series so late and over budget that they're out of the passenger jet business now), Mitsubishi (Will it ever get to market?), Pratt Whitney (many problems and delays with GTF), Roll Royce (Problems with 787 engine) and GE (Problems with 777X engine).

As for commercial failure the only one I can think of is the A380 and that's not a Boeing product. It's way too early to say the 777X is a commercial failure.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:09 am

klkla wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Pretty much everything they've done since has been late, over budget, or a commercial failure, or in some cases, all of the above.


In all fairness the same could be said about Airbus (A380 and A350 also late), Bombardier (C-Series so late and over budget that they're out of the passenger jet business now), Mitsubishi (Will it ever get to market?), Pratt Whitney (many problems and delays with GTF), Roll Royce (Problems with 787 engine) and GE (Problems with 777X engine).

As for commercial failure the only one I can think of is the A380 and that's not a Boeing product. It's way too early to say the 777X is a commercial failure.


So other companies mistakes make Boeings miscues acceptable? I don't dispute that others have messed up royally, but that's not what this conversation is about.

The 748 is a commercial failure, the KC 46 is a commercial failure, and and at this point the 787 program is still upside down by a couple of 10s of billions. Please, no lecture on program accounting.

I noticed you didn't duspute the unsafe assertion ....
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:43 am

oschkosch wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Image

Read about "The monster of Seattle", how it killed hundreds of people and why it should NEVER ever be allowed to fly again.

https://www.spiegel.de/plus/boeing-737- ... de132096f8
And yet still people here tell us "but the public will forget about it soon" or say things such as "the average Joe had no idea what plane he is on". In today's media world, this will be easily remembered. The public will not forget.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


While I agree, most people still will have no clue until they're in their seat and see the safety card or hear crew announcement, and even then some still won't realize it. A vocal minority will definitely notice and it won't be great for PR, and while I'm no Boeing apologist I still think most people won't be aware.
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