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OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:20 pm

packsonflight wrote:
If they did not the wind tunnelling team is not up to the job.


Until wind tunnels are capable of producing full scale Reynolds numbers, wind tunnel data cannot accurately reproduce full scale wing stall patterns. This means flight test stall testing can be highly uncertain and surprises can occur..

Don't deride the wind tunnel testing crew.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:29 pm

par13del wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
It is truly remarkable that there is zero official info coming from Boeing on that new issue from June. The only thing that came from Boeing is that "new issue has been identified by FAA" and "it will be fixed in September". Why can't they elaborate just a little bit so that the whole world does not need to rely on rumors?

Why can't the FAA elaborate, after all, it is their test routine for a safety feature that they mandate to be included in an a/c that they have to certify.
Why would we want second hand info from the OEM, let's go straight to the source who created the regulations in the first place, not the OEM's interpretation.

Because the issue is with proprietary Boeing hardware and software so the FAA is required to protect the intellectual property.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:04 pm

planecane wrote:
par13del wrote:
Why can't the FAA elaborate, after all, it is their test routine for a safety feature that they mandate to be included in an a/c that they have to certify.
Why would we want second hand info from the OEM, let's go straight to the source who created the regulations in the first place, not the OEM's interpretation.

Because the issue is with proprietary Boeing hardware and software so the FAA is required to protect the intellectual property.


bs. You can tell plenty about nature of the problem without revealing trade secrets.
 
shmerik
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:06 pm

Caught this on another forum:

BOE001 from Seattle https://fr24.com/BOE001/21973bf9

Flying now
 
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smithbs
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:13 pm

Recent news:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/05/boeing- ... trust.html
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3487260-b ... s-ceo-says

No details, but shooting for cert package to FAA in September and return to service in early Q4. Let's hope that schedule holds.
 
9w748capt
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:22 pm

par13del wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
It is truly remarkable that there is zero official info coming from Boeing on that new issue from June. The only thing that came from Boeing is that "new issue has been identified by FAA" and "it will be fixed in September". Why can't they elaborate just a little bit so that the whole world does not need to rely on rumors?

Why can't the FAA elaborate, after all, it is their test routine for a safety feature that they mandate to be included in an a/c that they have to certify.
Why would we want second hand info from the OEM, let's go straight to the source who created the regulations in the first place, not the OEM's interpretation.


Problem is it seems as though it's become more and more difficult to distinguish between OEM and regulator.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:24 pm

planecane wrote:
par13del wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
It is truly remarkable that there is zero official info coming from Boeing on that new issue from June. The only thing that came from Boeing is that "new issue has been identified by FAA" and "it will be fixed in September". Why can't they elaborate just a little bit so that the whole world does not need to rely on rumors?

Why can't the FAA elaborate, after all, it is their test routine for a safety feature that they mandate to be included in an a/c that they have to certify.
Why would we want second hand info from the OEM, let's go straight to the source who created the regulations in the first place, not the OEM's interpretation.

Because the issue is with proprietary Boeing hardware and software so the FAA is required to protect the intellectual property.

MCAS came about because Boeing had to find a way to meet an FAA requirement during a portion of flight outside normal operations, the FAA can certainly talk about that requirement, why it is necessary, who designed the test, what they expect, etc etc etc. We know Boeing has various methods to address, but that is the next step.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:35 pm

So the MAX is switching to dual computer architecture checking each other. The NG is still single computer.
Do any other aircraft have single computer, the 767 or 757?
Is MCAS really the only automated flight system at catastrophic risk by single computer architecture? I have a hard time believing that.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:45 pm

par13del wrote:
planecane wrote:
par13del wrote:
Why can't the FAA elaborate, after all, it is their test routine for a safety feature that they mandate to be included in an a/c that they have to certify.
Why would we want second hand info from the OEM, let's go straight to the source who created the regulations in the first place, not the OEM's interpretation.

Because the issue is with proprietary Boeing hardware and software so the FAA is required to protect the intellectual property.

MCAS came about because Boeing had to find a way to meet an FAA requirement during a portion of flight outside normal operations, the FAA can certainly talk about that requirement, why it is necessary, who designed the test, what they expect, etc etc etc. We know Boeing has various methods to address, but that is the next step.


I thought they were talking about the microprocessor issue. That has nothing to do with MCAS or FAR requirements. As far as the reporting, the FAA found an additional potential cause of runaway stabilizer and this is what caused the delay in submission for certification until September.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:02 pm

planecane wrote:
I thought they were talking about the microprocessor issue. That has nothing to do with MCAS or FAR requirements. As far as the reporting, the FAA found an additional potential cause of runaway stabilizer and this is what caused the delay in submission for certification until September.

Yeah, so in the mantra of information, the FAA did their additional test when Boeing submitted MCAS version 2.0, did you see any statement from the FAA on whether they passed MCAS? We got all the details of the FAA additional test which resulted from a deliberate failing of a computer to create a unique situation, all fine for testing, along with the additional EASA requirements which Boeing is addressing, but let's not forget why the last submission was made, MCAS. Did it pass or are you just assuming it did? When the next submission is made in September, will they have to test MCAS again because they did not the last time, who knows since the FAA is not saying anything.
 
packsonflight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:19 pm

par13del wrote:
planecane wrote:
I thought they were talking about the microprocessor issue. That has nothing to do with MCAS or FAR requirements. As far as the reporting, the FAA found an additional potential cause of runaway stabilizer and this is what caused the delay in submission for certification until September.

Yeah, so in the mantra of information, the FAA did their additional test when Boeing submitted MCAS version 2.0, did you see any statement from the FAA on whether they passed MCAS? We got all the details of the FAA additional test which resulted from a deliberate failing of a computer to create a unique situation, all fine for testing, along with the additional EASA requirements which Boeing is addressing, but let's not forget why the last submission was made, MCAS. Did it pass or are you just assuming it did? When the next submission is made in September, will they have to test MCAS again because they did not the last time, who knows since the FAA is not saying anything.


Boeing has full liberty of disclosing what is going on...
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:30 pm

par13del wrote:
planecane wrote:
I thought they were talking about the microprocessor issue. That has nothing to do with MCAS or FAR requirements. As far as the reporting, the FAA found an additional potential cause of runaway stabilizer and this is what caused the delay in submission for certification until September.

Yeah, so in the mantra of information, the FAA did their additional test when Boeing submitted MCAS version 2.0, did you see any statement from the FAA on whether they passed MCAS? We got all the details of the FAA additional test which resulted from a deliberate failing of a computer to create a unique situation, all fine for testing, along with the additional EASA requirements which Boeing is addressing, but let's not forget why the last submission was made, MCAS. Did it pass or are you just assuming it did? When the next submission is made in September, will they have to test MCAS again because they did not the last time, who knows since the FAA is not saying anything.


We'll know this information when Boeing submits the final package to the FAA (and other regulators for approval) and they announce that they have done this. We'll know if everything passed if the FAA (and other regulators) lift the grounding.
 
dougbr2006
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:48 pm

smithbs wrote:
Recent news:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/05/boeing- ... trust.html
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3487260-b ... s-ceo-says

No details, but shooting for cert package to FAA in September and return to service in early Q4. Let's hope that schedule holds.


I`m guessing that these flights were for the MCAS software updates. The other reports regarding the flight control software are probably not included, well at least not mentioned.

Since they are re-gigging the flight control software I`m pretty sure there will need to be a new full flight envelope evaluation of the software on flight tests and that's gonna take some time.

Boeing has not mentioned anything about this directly but I`m sure the FAA etc will insist on a lot of flight hours with the new flight control software before any certification is given.

I can`t see an October return to service its being very optimistic to think that. If lucky start of 2020, though I hope I`m wrong.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:32 am

packsonflight wrote:
par13del wrote:
planecane wrote:
I thought they were talking about the microprocessor issue. That has nothing to do with MCAS or FAR requirements. As far as the reporting, the FAA found an additional potential cause of runaway stabilizer and this is what caused the delay in submission for certification until September.

Yeah, so in the mantra of information, the FAA did their additional test when Boeing submitted MCAS version 2.0, did you see any statement from the FAA on whether they passed MCAS? We got all the details of the FAA additional test which resulted from a deliberate failing of a computer to create a unique situation, all fine for testing, along with the additional EASA requirements which Boeing is addressing, but let's not forget why the last submission was made, MCAS. Did it pass or are you just assuming it did? When the next submission is made in September, will they have to test MCAS again because they did not the last time, who knows since the FAA is not saying anything.


Boeing has full liberty of disclosing what is going on...

So Boeing declares that MCAS 2.0 is fine and everyone accepts that.....ok
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:42 am

par13del wrote:
planecane wrote:
I thought they were talking about the microprocessor issue. That has nothing to do with MCAS or FAR requirements. As far as the reporting, the FAA found an additional potential cause of runaway stabilizer and this is what caused the delay in submission for certification until September.

Yeah, so in the mantra of information, the FAA did their additional test when Boeing submitted MCAS version 2.0, did you see any statement from the FAA on whether they passed MCAS? We got all the details of the FAA additional test which resulted from a deliberate failing of a computer to create a unique situation, all fine for testing, along with the additional EASA requirements which Boeing is addressing, but let's not forget why the last submission was made, MCAS. Did it pass or are you just assuming it did? When the next submission is made in September, will they have to test MCAS again because they did not the last time, who knows since the FAA is not saying anything.

Also, the information we got about the microprocessor issue is mostly from "sources" talking to the media. There haven't been any official details from Boeing or the FAA.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:51 am

planecane wrote:
We'll know this information when Boeing submits the final package to the FAA (and other regulators for approval) and they announce that they have done this. We'll know if everything passed if the FAA (and other regulators) lift the grounding.

Will this then be the final final package?. If we go back to the start of these threads we hear / read about MCAS, the root of all things evil at Boeing which caused two fatal crashes, 300+ lives lost, cover up's, denials, hidden information, blame pilots etc etc all of which is / was related to a botched design called MCAS.
So Boeing submits a fix for MCAS in June and nothing, suddenly we have other items which so far no one says was the cause of any of the two fatal crashes but no one is talking about the MCAS fix. The FAA who tested the MCAS fix have not said much about how the fix performed, but they were not shy in releasing all other information from their additional test. I guess I may question why they did not "bust " the computer and do their test even before Boeing submitted MCAS 2.0, after all, this fault was not discovered during MCAS testing, they went into that testing prepared to fault the computer because they had a good idea what would happen. Why wait until Boeing submitted the MCAS fix to test a fault scenario on the computers, they are the regulators, they could have done that test early in the grounding and present Boeing with a more comprehensive list versus just saying fix MCAS.
Based on the post in this thread, the FAA is not getting any brownie points for making it look like they are now being tough on Boeing, the flip side for me is that they knew that this was a potential flaw, there was nothing preventing them from testing this with Boeing asap, why wait?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:53 am

planecane wrote:
Also, the information we got about the microprocessor issue is mostly from "sources" talking to the media. There haven't been any official details from Boeing or the FAA.

My take is that those come from the FAA side, Boeing has clamped down on their leaks hence the mass of whistle blowers, also we cannot ignore that the FAA is trying to now appear tough, my opinion.
 
mwmav8r01
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:00 am

ghtworchave wrote:
So just talking to a SWA pilot they're being led to believe 2020 before they operate the jet again even if the fix is out in the fall. Is that the latest consensus is 2020?


Just because they are removed from the planned schedule whos to say that if the plane is back they wont 1, use it or 2 add extra flights. Easier to add than remove flts esp during the holidays.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:31 am

mwmav8r01 wrote:
ghtworchave wrote:
So just talking to a SWA pilot they're being led to believe 2020 before they operate the jet again even if the fix is out in the fall. Is that the latest consensus is 2020?


Just because they are removed from the planned schedule whos to say that if the plane is back they wont 1, use it or 2 add extra flights. Easier to add than remove flts esp during the holidays.


IIRC... Southwest has 34 frames right now that need to be brought out of storage,
have major software upgrades completed, plus all other MX that is done when
jets are brought out of mothballs. Add the undelivered frames and Southwest's
MX department has lots of work ahead of it.

This also goes for every other Max operator. This will be a long drawn out process
getting these birds airborne again;
 
speedking
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:54 am

seahawk wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
seahawk wrote:
One of the safest airplanes ever to fly is arrogant for me and it implies that the MAX always has been safe.

One or two posters likely would call his words hyperbole, click-bait or BS if they were not pro. And, of course any interpretation you make is not allowed unless its on the pro side. You could say they implies MAX was not previously safe (wash my mouth out).

Anyway, the words are easy and hollow since it will 20 or 30 years before they can be confirmed or challenged and the guy is not likely to be around 20 months from now.

Ray


For me it is just another form of the "making a safe planes safer" line.


Should talk the truth only: Making the already cheap plane cheaper. Will be one of the cheapest ever to fly.
 
Aviation737
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:15 am

seahawk wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
seahawk wrote:
One of the safest airplanes ever to fly is arrogant for me and it implies that the MAX always has been safe.

One or two posters likely would call his words hyperbole, click-bait or BS if they were not pro. And, of course any interpretation you make is not allowed unless its on the pro side. You could say they implies MAX was not previously safe (wash my mouth out).

Anyway, the words are easy and hollow since it will 20 or 30 years before they can be confirmed or challenged and the guy is not likely to be around 20 months from now.

Ray


For me it is just another form of the "making a safe planes safer" line.


When did he ever say in that statement that the current iteration of the 737 MAX is a safe plane? Didnt they already admit that the MAX had a flaw? I really cant see how that statement that he made was arrogant? To me that statement means that Boeing is working hard on a solution and that they will ensure that the aircraft is safe.
 
foxtrotbravo21
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:45 am

When the 737 Max hopefully resume flying again in Nov/Dec and after all its modifications and FAA and EASA approvals, it will be one of the safest plane as it would have gone through very thorough and exhautsive tests and scrutiny by the regulators.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:06 am

Aviation737 wrote:
When did he ever say in that statement that the current iteration of the 737 MAX is a safe plane? Didnt they already admit that the MAX had a flaw? I really cant see how that statement that he made was arrogant? To me that statement means that Boeing is working hard on a solution and that they will ensure that the aircraft is safe.

No, never admitted any flaws. (Because liability). All they said was "increased workload", "chain of events", and "solid design and certification process". He did not say max was safe today, but he did say that before.
 
therealsuperuse
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:26 am

Currently sitting in the terminal in SEA waiting for my late flight, I was amazed to see so much ground - then, in fact, also air - movement of B38Ms! I thought the plane was grounded, but the sheer volume of Alaskan (and other) planes I saw thundering down the runway simply does not explain ferry or maintenance flights?! I noticed a similar in SFO a couple weeks ago.

Could anyone explain? Thank you :-)
 
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bombayduck
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:10 am

Probably 737-800's as the MAX is still grounded. Also I think that Alaskan do not have any B38M aircraft.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:11 am

therealsuperuse wrote:
Currently sitting in the terminal in SEA waiting for my late flight, I was amazed to see so much ground - then, in fact, also air - movement of B38Ms! I thought the plane was grounded, but the sheer volume of Alaskan (and other) planes I saw thundering down the runway simply does not explain ferry or maintenance flights?! I noticed a similar in SFO a couple weeks ago.

Could anyone explain? Thank you :-)


Alaskan doesn’t have any MAXs, they are all NGs...
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:24 am

Aviation737 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
One or two posters likely would call his words hyperbole, click-bait or BS if they were not pro. And, of course any interpretation you make is not allowed unless its on the pro side. You could say they implies MAX was not previously safe (wash my mouth out).

Anyway, the words are easy and hollow since it will 20 or 30 years before they can be confirmed or challenged and the guy is not likely to be around 20 months from now.

Ray


For me it is just another form of the "making a safe planes safer" line.


When did he ever say in that statement that the current iteration of the 737 MAX is a safe plane? Didnt they already admit that the MAX had a flaw? I really cant see how that statement that he made was arrogant? To me that statement means that Boeing is working hard on a solution and that they will ensure that the aircraft is safe.


In April he said: software changes will make the jet “even safer by preventing erroneous angle of attack sensor readings”

And the "safest plane ever to fly" is the exact same wording used in march already: "We're very confident that when the fleet comes back up the Max will be one of the safest airplanes ever to fly."

So Boeing did not move its position one bit since March.
 
oOfredOo
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:33 am

foxtrotbravo21 wrote:
When the 737 Max hopefully resume flying again in Nov/Dec and after all its modifications and FAA and EASA approvals, it will be one of the safest plane as it would have gone through very thorough and exhautsive tests and scrutiny by the regulators.


If only half of the articles about the FAA delegated oversight hold any truth, there is little reason to assume that your statement will turn out to be correct. The entire 737 was self certified, people were under pressure from boeing management, good inspectors with experience left, vacancies filled with unexperienced graduates. EASA essentially rubber stamps the FAA certification.

Unless a specific statement will be made that the entire plane will be recertified after the FAA has made the neccessary changes to the delegated oversight process, it’s still a self sertified plane that received a lot of scrutiny in one specific area after two accidents.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:59 am

Why is the FAA itself so quiet on MAX updates? The last I can find is from late june?
https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=93206
 
Jetty
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:05 am

planecane wrote:
par13del wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
It is truly remarkable that there is zero official info coming from Boeing on that new issue from June. The only thing that came from Boeing is that "new issue has been identified by FAA" and "it will be fixed in September". Why can't they elaborate just a little bit so that the whole world does not need to rely on rumors?

Why can't the FAA elaborate, after all, it is their test routine for a safety feature that they mandate to be included in an a/c that they have to certify.
Why would we want second hand info from the OEM, let's go straight to the source who created the regulations in the first place, not the OEM's interpretation.

Because the issue is with proprietary Boeing hardware and software so the FAA is required to protect the intellectual property.

As if any competing company would want to copy anything remotely similar to MCAS. There’s no reasonable risk of intellectual property used on the ‘monster of Seattle’ being stolen.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:06 am

Jetty wrote:
As if any competing company would want to copy anything remotely similar to MCAS. There’s no reasonable risk of intellectual property used on the ‘monster of Seattle’ being stolen.


Indeed. Intellectual also implies some intelligence and thought went into it.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:31 am

Noshow wrote:
Why is the FAA itself so quiet on MAX updates? The last I can find is from late june?
https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=93206


...because real business likes silence?
The queen of the skies is dead.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:49 am

planecane wrote:
Because the issue is with proprietary Boeing hardware and software so the FAA is required to protect the intellectual property.


IP tops LIFE ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:01 am

Besides the technical and legal ways to get things going again a lot of trust of the airlines, pilots and flying public needs to be regained or should I say redeserved. Keeping quiet will not gain any new positive image for the MAX or whatever it will be called. I'd suggest it's time to come up with more open communications again. This is something the companies top can be blamed for.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:10 am

par13del wrote:
planecane wrote:
We'll know this information when Boeing submits the final package to the FAA (and other regulators for approval) and they announce that they have done this. We'll know if everything passed if the FAA (and other regulators) lift the grounding.

Will this then be the final final package?. If we go back to the start of these threads we hear / read about MCAS, the root of all things evil at Boeing which caused two fatal crashes, 300+ lives lost, cover up's, denials, hidden information, blame pilots etc etc all of which is / was related to a botched design called MCAS.
So Boeing submits a fix for MCAS in June and nothing, suddenly we have other items which so far no one says was the cause of any of the two fatal crashes but no one is talking about the MCAS fix. The FAA who tested the MCAS fix have not said much about how the fix performed, but they were not shy in releasing all other information from their additional test. I guess I may question why they did not "bust " the computer and do their test even before Boeing submitted MCAS 2.0, after all, this fault was not discovered during MCAS testing, they went into that testing prepared to fault the computer because they had a good idea what would happen. Why wait until Boeing submitted the MCAS fix to test a fault scenario on the computers, they are the regulators, they could have done that test early in the grounding and present Boeing with a more comprehensive list versus just saying fix MCAS.
Based on the post in this thread, the FAA is not getting any brownie points for making it look like they are now being tough on Boeing, the flip side for me is that they knew that this was a potential flaw, there was nothing preventing them from testing this with Boeing asap, why wait?

Because you test the product to be certified and released and service not the previous or some intermediate version. It may happen in some circumstances but will still need to be repeated or mitigated for the final version.

Ray
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:28 am

foxtrotbravo21 wrote:
When the 737 Max hopefully resume flying again in Nov/Dec and after all its modifications and FAA and EASA approvals, it will be one of the safest plane as it would have gone through very thorough and exhautsive tests and scrutiny by the regulators.


Nice try
The only way to make it safe is to convert it to full fly-by-wire

Thats the way to fly aircraft with abnormal atidudes since decades
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:23 am

MrBretz wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Is the cosmic ray flip flop test in the FAA regulations?


No, but the surprise UFO appearance is.

If it covered specifically in FAR/JAR, I don’t know, but it is a relevant design requirement.

‘Bit Flipping’ or Single/Multiple Event Upset/Latching is an observable phenomenon and is the result of the impact of high energy neutrons released by the collision of cosmic radiation with matter in the atmosphere. It is only ‘esoteric’ in that few people understand it, or rather, take the trouble to research it. The rate at which impacts occur are based on observational science not some guess-work. US cant be isolationist on this one (or cosmic ray deniers!).

Without being privy to the certification teams approach to arrive at 5 bit flips, I would suspect this is the worst case number that can be predicted in a maximum flight leg duration and profile from the science, with a probability of <1E-12. Not just remote but extremely remote and this is number required to be achieved for catastrophic event likelihood. Hazardous outcomes would also need to considered.

So, if it can be demonstrated that the worst case failure is not catastrophic/Hazardous, then all is well. The requirement is met.

In order to test this hypothesis, bearing in mind that the impacts are entirely random in location, you can either spend a few years testing very possible combination of 5 bits (since every combination is as probable as every other one), or you can deduce by analysis what the worst case combinations of 5 bits are, in terms of what the potential combined effects are, and test those. This is what they would seem to have done and a combination was demonstrated to be potentially catastrophic in outcome and therefore the requirement is not met.

Boeing appear to have argued that this should not be categorised catastrophic outcome, rather major, on the basis that the pilot can catch it. They were proved and instructed otherwise. This would seem similar to the Flap System problem, we have little information on, but it seems Boeing had to be instructed it was catastrophic. Strangely enough, also seems a corollary of MCAS where at least some functioning engineers declared outcomes as major and have been proven catastrophically wrong. There might be an unchanging pattern here, but I’d be blowed if I can see it.

Ray
 
planecane
Posts: 1577
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:45 am

Jetty wrote:
planecane wrote:
par13del wrote:
Why can't the FAA elaborate, after all, it is their test routine for a safety feature that they mandate to be included in an a/c that they have to certify.
Why would we want second hand info from the OEM, let's go straight to the source who created the regulations in the first place, not the OEM's interpretation.

Because the issue is with proprietary Boeing hardware and software so the FAA is required to protect the intellectual property.

As if any competing company would want to copy anything remotely similar to MCAS. There’s no reasonable risk of intellectual property used on the ‘monster of Seattle’ being stolen.


This discussion is not about MCAS. It is about the FAA disclosing information about the microprocessor issue. Disclosing details could expose information about Boeing's software architecture.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:49 am

WIederling wrote:
planecane wrote:
Because the issue is with proprietary Boeing hardware and software so the FAA is required to protect the intellectual property.


IP tops LIFE ?


Where do you come up with this ridiculous conclusion? How does the FAA disclosing information to the public about specifics of exactly what they did to cause a microprocessor issue protect life? Is the public going to somehow use the information to provide a solution to Boeing?
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:51 am

No program data or code need to be disclosed. Just what is changed and why.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:52 am

XRAYretired wrote:
par13del wrote:
planecane wrote:
We'll know this information when Boeing submits the final package to the FAA (and other regulators for approval) and they announce that they have done this. We'll know if everything passed if the FAA (and other regulators) lift the grounding.

Will this then be the final final package?. If we go back to the start of these threads we hear / read about MCAS, the root of all things evil at Boeing which caused two fatal crashes, 300+ lives lost, cover up's, denials, hidden information, blame pilots etc etc all of which is / was related to a botched design called MCAS.
So Boeing submits a fix for MCAS in June and nothing, suddenly we have other items which so far no one says was the cause of any of the two fatal crashes but no one is talking about the MCAS fix. The FAA who tested the MCAS fix have not said much about how the fix performed, but they were not shy in releasing all other information from their additional test. I guess I may question why they did not "bust " the computer and do their test even before Boeing submitted MCAS 2.0, after all, this fault was not discovered during MCAS testing, they went into that testing prepared to fault the computer because they had a good idea what would happen. Why wait until Boeing submitted the MCAS fix to test a fault scenario on the computers, they are the regulators, they could have done that test early in the grounding and present Boeing with a more comprehensive list versus just saying fix MCAS.
Based on the post in this thread, the FAA is not getting any brownie points for making it look like they are now being tough on Boeing, the flip side for me is that they knew that this was a potential flaw, there was nothing preventing them from testing this with Boeing asap, why wait?

Because you test the product to be certified and released and service not the previous or some intermediate version. It may happen in some circumstances but will still need to be repeated or mitigated for the final version.

Ray


Thank you for posting this. Even if the FAA has done some testing of the software, it will all need to be retested when the final software is released. They are making changes to address the microprocessor issue that the FAA found. Even if that issue has nothing to do with MCAS, fixing it could possibly introduce a bug into the MCAS (since both have interaction with driving the trim). Therefore, once everything is addressed in the software, EVERYTHING will need to be tested again.
 
planecane
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Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:14 am

asdf wrote:
foxtrotbravo21 wrote:
When the 737 Max hopefully resume flying again in Nov/Dec and after all its modifications and FAA and EASA approvals, it will be one of the safest plane as it would have gone through very thorough and exhautsive tests and scrutiny by the regulators.


Nice try
The only way to make it safe is to convert it to full fly-by-wire

Thats the way to fly aircraft with abnormal atidudes since decades


Can we please try and keep this discussion based in some sort of reality. Your statement is not true. After the fixes and all of the scrutiny by regulators the MAX will certainly be as safe as the 737NG.

There is nothing unsafe about MCAS when it has functioning sensors to rely on. If the MAX was FBW and enough sensors failed, it wouldn't be safe either. The reason MCAS caused emergency situations is because it relied on a single sensor, not because it isn't FBW. I guess, technically, MCAS is FBW since a computer algorithm drives an electric motor with electric signals.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:30 am

Noshow wrote:
Besides the technical and legal ways to get things going again a lot of trust of the airlines, pilots and flying public needs to be regained or should I say redeserved. Keeping quiet will not gain any new positive image for the MAX or whatever it will be called. I'd suggest it's time to come up with more open communications again. This is something the companies top can be blamed for.

Even from a PR perspective, communicating when there is nothing really to communicate won't help. What will help is when they submit the final package communicating all of the issues found and detailing how they were addressed.

Until the final package is submitted, something they communicate now can turn out to be different than what is in the certified version. I think that having discrepancies would hurt confidence because it would make it appear that they don't know what they are doing. The general public doesn't understand engineering work flow.
 
User avatar
flyingphil
Posts: 312
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:44 am

So Boeing are over in China holding workshops about bringing the 737MAX back into service.
The Chinese are one of Boeings biggest customers, will be vital that the Chinese regulator agrees with the FAA about giving the 737MAX the green light. Hopefully Trump will not throw a spanner in the works.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 7-max-back
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 870
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:54 am

planecane wrote:
asdf wrote:
foxtrotbravo21 wrote:
When the 737 Max hopefully resume flying again in Nov/Dec and after all its modifications and FAA and EASA approvals, it will be one of the safest plane as it would have gone through very thorough and exhautsive tests and scrutiny by the regulators.


Nice try
The only way to make it safe is to convert it to full fly-by-wire

Thats the way to fly aircraft with abnormal atidudes since decades


Can we please try and keep this discussion based in some sort of reality. Your statement is not true. After the fixes and all of the scrutiny by regulators the MAX will certainly be as safe as the 737NG.

There is nothing unsafe about MCAS when it has functioning sensors to rely on. If the MAX was FBW and enough sensors failed, it wouldn't be safe either. The reason MCAS caused emergency situations is because it relied on a single sensor, not because it isn't FBW. I guess, technically, MCAS is FBW since a computer algorithm drives an electric motor with electric signals.

Well not quite, it may be possible to predict that MAX performance will be as good as NG, but that will not be demonstrable for many years, and it may be well be arguable, if the FCC architecture change is backward compatible to NG, that the NG predicted performance can be brought up to the level of MAX!

But no. Single sensor design can and did fail active (and catastrophically) in this case. Multiple sensor is designed, by intent, to fail in a benign manner 'failsafe' whilst being more dependable overall if it is 3 sensors.

Ray
 
jollo
Posts: 396
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:57 am

Sorry if this had been already discussed (out of the loop for a while and the MAX threads are too prolific to really catch up), but I can’t find whether the real (or alleged) reason for Boeing to change the function of the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches from NG to MAX has been explained or not. A recap on this issue for clarification:

NG has two distinct STAB TRIM CUT OUT switches because it has - unlike previous 737 models - a single horizontal stab actuator (electric motor) with two command inputs: one from the “manual” yoke trim switches and one from the FCC. So one cut out switch, labelled AUTO PILOT, allows pilots to cut out all FCC inputs (including A/P and STS) while still retaining manual control over the electric stab trim actuator, and the other, labelled MAIN ELECT, completely cuts off the actuator and therefore also disables yoke trim switch commands.

Notes:
* The flight crew is directed to use cut out switches only within the “Runaway Stabilizer” NNC, and only by acting on both switches at once;
* The ability to cut out only FCC commands while still retaining manual control over the electric stab trim actuator could possibly have helped pilots to cope with the fatal “AND out-of-trim + high speed” situation late in the ET accident (if they had been driving an NG - of course, in an NG they would not have experienced the severe AND out-of-trim runaway in the first place, so this is speculation).

MAX still has two STAB TRIM CUT OUT switches, re-labeled PRI and B/U (conceivably meant as “PRImary” and “Back/Up”), but their function was altered so that both switches directly disable the actuator; therefore setting either switch to CUT OUT disables both FCC and yoke trim switch commands, leaving only the manual trim wheel for horizontal stab control.

However, certification documentation submitted to FAA omits to mention the function change and only describes a labeling change; the (in)famous iPad 1-hour training also only mentions the change as relabeling and the FCOM doesn’t mention the change at all (it still directs pilots to move both switches at once).

Now, let’s please avoid if possible a discussion about the moral and legal liabilities of hiding changes in the certification process, or about the MCAS 1.0 implementation being or not the result of a series of appalling, but good-faith engineering and process failures.

My question is: has anyone found a credible reason for Boeing to have implemented, and then hidden, a functional change in an area where, arguably, it would have been easier and better to “leave well enough alone”?

Thanks and cheers
 
asdf
Posts: 700
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:12 am

planecane wrote:
asdf wrote:
foxtrotbravo21 wrote:
When the 737 Max hopefully resume flying again in Nov/Dec and after all its modifications and FAA and EASA approvals, it will be one of the safest plane as it would have gone through very thorough and exhautsive tests and scrutiny by the regulators.


Nice try
The only way to make it safe is to convert it to full fly-by-wire

Thats the way to fly aircraft with abnormal atidudes since decades


Can we please try and keep this discussion based in some sort of reality. Your statement is not true. After the fixes and all of the scrutiny by regulators the MAX will certainly be as safe as the 737NG.

There is nothing unsafe about MCAS when it has functioning sensors to rely on. If the MAX was FBW and enough sensors failed, it wouldn't be safe either. The reason MCAS caused emergency situations is because it relied on a single sensor, not because it isn't FBW. I guess, technically, MCAS is FBW since a computer algorithm drives an electric motor with electric signals.


Some here are trying to focus the discussion on MCAS, but MCAS is not the problem at all.

the problem is that a plane with poor aerodynamic behavior can never be as safe as a plane with properly calculated aerodynamic behavior, if that plane is not controlled by a computer that has access to all the attitude controls and the drive elements (fly-by-wire).

this is not rocket science, that has been the technology of flying for decades.

Boeing never redesigned the 737 series to fly-by-wire because that was not absolutely necessary up to the NG.
the 737 were outstanding flying aircraft up to NG model. even an average pilot can easily solve all the special cases and situations with a 737 up to the NG.

but boeing had to use the big engines for the MAX in order to keep up with the NEOs in terms of fuel consumption

These engines are too big in diameter to fit under the low 737 wings.
The landing gear has already been made longer for the NG and can not be extended any further

At this point, boeing would have had to accept that it will not go without a complete redesign

instead, boeing - like no other manufacturer before - continued to put forward the engines with modified pylons. so they could be mounted higher.

The flight behavior has changed significantly. according to official information only "on the edge of the flight-envelopes" ....

even if that is so .....

Flight incidents that brought a 737 (up to the NG) to the edge of the flight enevelope in the past were at best uncomfortable for the crew and the passengers because the pilots were able to competently control the good-natured and clean-responding 737.

The MAX is obviously completely different here. With control interventions in the flight control system (MCAS), the pilot will be fooled into an aircraft that is reacting the same way.

The natural reactions of an average pilot become largely worthless because they are distorted in flight control by automatic change interventions.

the MAX can never be as safe as a properly designed and aerodynamically neutral aircraft. no matter how MCAS 2.0 will work - or not.
 
macc
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:11 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:47 am

flyingphil wrote:
So Boeing are over in China holding workshops about bringing the 737MAX back into service.
The Chinese are one of Boeings biggest customers, will be vital that the Chinese regulator agrees with the FAA about giving the 737MAX the green light. Hopefully Trump will not throw a spanner in the works.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 7-max-back


Good luck with CAAC in light of the escalating trade war. Would not be surprised if China makes use of this lever in the next few months. It appears to be one of the strongest weapons they hold at the moment, as the grounding takes a huge hit on US export figures.
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
oOfredOo
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:07 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:18 pm

Wired reports the 737-7 flight yesterday as an "engineering flight" gathering data at the request of the FAA.

https://www.wired.com/story/boeing-737- ... and-downs/
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:32 pm

foxtrotbravo21 wrote:
When the 737 Max hopefully resume flying again in Nov/Dec and after all its modifications and FAA and EASA approvals, it will be one of the safest plane as it would have gone through very thorough and exhautsive tests and scrutiny by the regulators.

Except cutting all the rudder control cables with a single piece of debris from an uncontained engine failure...
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!

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