planecane
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:11 am

sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:

Pot calling the kettle black? It doesn't matter what I post, you (and others) will try and figure out a way to argue over it.

But your posts seem oddly typical of a PR operative, with the continuing attempts to reframe the debate around pilot performance rather than certification issues.

planecane wrote:

My response had NOTHING TO DO WITH CERTIFICATION.

Your response had both nothing and everything to do with it. By reiterating the importance of pilot blame you are simultaneously supporting the notion that Boeing really did think the their assumptions about pilot performance during a MCAS runaway event were valid. There is significant information that debunks that, information that strongly shows an aerospace company maneuvering the certification process, from the miscategorization of MCAS, to the omittance of MCAS in pilots manuals, all to meet a time to market deadline.

They didnt want MCAS in the FCOM because some pilots out there might get the gumption to ask where the AOA disagree light is, and why is there only one AOA sensor being used, and then the likely subsequent grounding because pilots refuse to fly the plane.


Think what you want but I find it hilarious that you think I'm a PR operative. I'm actually laughing out loud at that one. I have never spoken to anybody in my life that I was aware works for Boeing. I don't own any Boeing stock directly. If Boeing is paying people to do PR posts on a.net then they are wasting money.

Nice selective quoting, BTW. What I said was "My response had NOTHING TO DO WITH CERTIFICATION. It had to do with responding to the suggestion that they "hoped" they could get the fix done "before the next crash." Do you really believe this was the case and that they didn't think the procedures and documentation updated by the EAD would prevent "the next crash" while they finished the updates to MCAS that they started after Lion Air?"

The post still has nothing to do with certification no matter if you only quote 8 words. It was purely responding to the suggestion that Boeing was just hoping they'd beat the clock to the next crash.
 
juliuswong
Moderator
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Due to the 737 MAX grounding, GOL is leasing 13 737NG

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:45 am

To dcajet, kindly provide source. Thanks.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
dcajet
Posts: 4114
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Due to the 737 MAX grounding, GOL is leasing 13 737NG

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:14 am

"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
juliuswong
Moderator
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Due to the 737 MAX grounding, GOL is leasing 13 737NG

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:52 am

dcajet wrote:

Thanks dcajet. Brilliant!

Here are some extra information too: https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/gol-l ... 08545.html

Although there is a typo...B727-800!
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
spongenotbob
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:40 am

Re: Due to the 737 MAX grounding, GOL is leasing 13 737NG

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:14 am

juliuswong wrote:
Although there is a typo...B727-800!


That’s not a typo, that’s Boeing’s new and improved name for the MAX!
 
Someone83
Posts: 4382
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: Due to the 737 MAX grounding, GOL is leasing 13 737NG

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:47 am

Is this short or long term leases? Or a mix?
 
bennett123
Posts: 8944
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:33 am

For those saying that it is a pilot training issue not a plane issue, do none of the poorly trained pilots fly Airbus?.
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1740
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:39 am

MSPNWA wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Decidedly NOT grounded on training issues.
training issues would ground pilots, wouldn't it.

Boeing has only ever announced changes to the hardware ( and software working on that hardware).
No move has been made by Boeing to lay out plans for a proper training curriculum ( as changed reference for schools, airlines ).

Another one of these icky smear campaigners ?
and guess what: MAX are grounded in the domain of the "God Pilots" too.

You're misunderstanding the grounding. Grounding an aircraft is presumably to prevent another accident. It doesn't mean that only the airplane is to blame. That's a faulty conclusion.

Ask yourself the questions. Is this plane grounded without crashes? No. Has this plane crashed without serious mistakes in operation? No.

The only logical conclusion is the plane is grounded in part due to poor pilot skills/training. It's disturbing that apparently only one hole is required to be plugged. That's not a culture of safety.

That's rubbish. The design flaws of the MAX were overwhelming pilots and have killed hundreds of people. For them, it was a death trap. Conflicting error messages. A failing aircraft on many levels (due to a system failure, violent control inputs were generated, that countered the manual flying attempts), not recoverable even by US pilots in simulator despite having learned all the details, that were unknown to the crashed pilots.

You are aware, that the overall safety records in aviation is excellent? The outlier is the safety record of the MAX, which is bad on an unseen level. No other jet passenger aircraft has such an abyssally bad safety record (two crashes within some months less than two years after EIS caused by the same system going haywire). For this reason, the MAX is grounded and not the pilots. The same pilots continue to contribute to the excellent safety record of the A320 and 737NG.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17474
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:02 am

bennett123 wrote:
For those saying that it is a pilot training issue not a plane issue, do none of the poorly trained pilots fly Airbus?.


Those very same "poorly trained" pilots are also able to keep 737NGs from nose-diving into the ground killing everyone on board. Curious.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
StTim
Posts: 3445
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:15 am

Also remember the training regime for the MAX was devised by Boeing to not require hands on simulator training AND MCAS was effectively hidden from most operators and pilots.

Now when the accident reports come out the will be many recommendations including pilot training, fault reporting, maintenance etc but no one can really get away from the fact that most (not all) roads will lead back to Boeing.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:52 am

MSPNWA wrote:
... - is if the pilots played absolutely zero part in those aircraft crashing ...


not the proper question.
pilots are instrumental to flying an airplane.
( if they cannot play a role you also can remove them as not neccessary :-)

You'd have to show that these pilots contributed to the crashes in a way that the majority of pilots would not have provided.
( that would be the theory of the incompetent third worlders pushed from the "culture of the choosen" side.)

IMU test did not provide foundation for that proposition.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1686
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:17 am

RandWkop wrote:
On another point, Wilbur Ross noted that US economic growth would improve when the MAX is back in the air.
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/08/14/w ... solve.html



Well that doesn't scare me at all. :sarcastic: You have a President who prides himself on the performance of the economy as a sign of his own brilliance. Now there is talk of how ungrounding the MAX will help the economy. That should be worrying to anyone who thinks there shouldn't be any interference on the FAA to get the aircraft back in the air.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:20 am

enzo011 wrote:
RandWkop wrote:
On another point, Wilbur Ross noted that US economic growth would improve when the MAX is back in the air.
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/08/14/w ... solve.html



Well that doesn't scare me at all. :sarcastic: You have a President who prides himself on the performance of the economy as a sign of his own brilliance. Now there is talk of how ungrounding the MAX will help the economy. That should be worrying to anyone who thinks there shouldn't be any interference on the FAA to get the aircraft back in the air.


Volume of taxes levied on imports count into the economic performance, don't they? :-()
Murphy is an optimist
 
planecane
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:21 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Decidedly NOT grounded on training issues.
training issues would ground pilots, wouldn't it.

Boeing has only ever announced changes to the hardware ( and software working on that hardware).
No move has been made by Boeing to lay out plans for a proper training curriculum ( as changed reference for schools, airlines ).

Another one of these icky smear campaigners ?
and guess what: MAX are grounded in the domain of the "God Pilots" too.

You're misunderstanding the grounding. Grounding an aircraft is presumably to prevent another accident. It doesn't mean that only the airplane is to blame. That's a faulty conclusion.

Ask yourself the questions. Is this plane grounded without crashes? No. Has this plane crashed without serious mistakes in operation? No.

The only logical conclusion is the plane is grounded in part due to poor pilot skills/training. It's disturbing that apparently only one hole is required to be plugged. That's not a culture of safety.

That's rubbish. The design flaws of the MAX were overwhelming pilots and have killed hundreds of people. For them, it was a death trap. Conflicting error messages. A failing aircraft on many levels (due to a system failure, violent control inputs were generated, that countered the manual flying attempts), not recoverable even by US pilots in simulator despite having learned all the details, that were unknown to the crashed pilots.

You are aware, that the overall safety records in aviation is excellent? The outlier is the safety record of the MAX, which is bad on an unseen level. No other jet passenger aircraft has such an abyssally bad safety record (two crashes within some months less than two years after EIS caused by the same system going haywire). For this reason, the MAX is grounded and not the pilots. The same pilots continue to contribute to the excellent safety record of the A320 and 737NG.

Can we stop perpetuating this myth about pilots that couldn't recover in simulator sessions? Nobody has provided a source for this story. The only simulation that showed that pilots didn't recover was one where the simulation started severely out of trim with electric trim off and it took too much altitude to use the "roller coaster" procedure to recover using the manual wheel.

Since MCAS wasn't included in the MAX simulators it would be difficult to simulate the exact scenario. I am not aware of any documented session where they simulated a similar chain of events starting before the event and having a runaway start upon flaps retraction.
 
planecane
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:26 am

enzo011 wrote:
RandWkop wrote:
On another point, Wilbur Ross noted that US economic growth would improve when the MAX is back in the air.
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/08/14/w ... solve.html



Well that doesn't scare me at all. :sarcastic: You have a President who prides himself on the performance of the economy as a sign of his own brilliance. Now there is talk of how ungrounding the MAX will help the economy. That should be worrying to anyone who thinks there shouldn't be any interference on the FAA to get the aircraft back in the air.


Seriously? The same President that pulled rank on the FAA to ground it in the first place despite pressure from Boeing's CEO? Will he want to take credit for a crash as well? I guess he will also pressure EASA and other foreign regulators to get it back in the air because the FAA is not going to lift the grounding solo.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9042
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:21 pm

enzo011 wrote:
does that not worry you when the FAA should be divorced from politics?

Where are you getting this from?
The FAA is a government body, funded by the government via special taxes etc, as well as other budget means, therefore at its core it is political.
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:59 pm

planecane wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
You're misunderstanding the grounding. Grounding an aircraft is presumably to prevent another accident. It doesn't mean that only the airplane is to blame. That's a faulty conclusion.

Ask yourself the questions. Is this plane grounded without crashes? No. Has this plane crashed without serious mistakes in operation? No.

The only logical conclusion is the plane is grounded in part due to poor pilot skills/training. It's disturbing that apparently only one hole is required to be plugged. That's not a culture of safety.

That's rubbish. The design flaws of the MAX were overwhelming pilots and have killed hundreds of people. For them, it was a death trap. Conflicting error messages. A failing aircraft on many levels (due to a system failure, violent control inputs were generated, that countered the manual flying attempts), not recoverable even by US pilots in simulator despite having learned all the details, that were unknown to the crashed pilots.

You are aware, that the overall safety records in aviation is excellent? The outlier is the safety record of the MAX, which is bad on an unseen level. No other jet passenger aircraft has such an abyssally bad safety record (two crashes within some months less than two years after EIS caused by the same system going haywire). For this reason, the MAX is grounded and not the pilots. The same pilots continue to contribute to the excellent safety record of the A320 and 737NG.

Can we stop perpetuating this myth about pilots that couldn't recover in simulator sessions? Nobody has provided a source for this story. The only simulation that showed that pilots didn't recover was one where the simulation started severely out of trim with electric trim off and it took too much altitude to use the "roller coaster" procedure to recover using the manual wheel.

Since MCAS wasn't included in the MAX simulators it would be difficult to simulate the exact scenario. I am not aware of any documented session where they simulated a similar chain of events starting before the event and having a runaway start upon flaps retraction.

Brilliant! citing the very example of failure to recover in the same breath as declaration of it as a myth. There are also reports of several other examples of pilots declaring recovery difficult at best. Brilliant 2!, as it were. Reminding us that the simulators were not capable of simulating MCAS, because MCAS was not disclosed to the manufacturer, (not forgetting they were also not capable of adequately simulating manual trim wheel loads either) and then decrying the fact that no simulator sessions simulating MCAS operating on flaps up have been reported - By admission, they could not be done, and in any case such a simulation would be nonsensical in hindsight. The simulations demonstrated that recovery was at best difficult.

In the most accurate and realistic simulations of all, a catastrophic result was demonstrated in 2 of 3 attempts - the MAX cockpit.

To give the benefit of the doubt to Boeing/FAA, it may have come as a sudden realisation, that MCAS V1.0 was fatally flawed and a catastrophic failure mode existed, immediately following the Lion Air crash. That should have been the end of it.

Not withstanding the death and suffering of two crashes, it matters not a jot if simulator demonstrations showed recovery of 49/50 or 4999/5000 attempts, or even if weasel words can be used to suggest the ways that recovery could have been achieved in the two crash events, catastrophic failure mode must be demonstrated to occur at rate worse than ~1 in 100 million flights (depending on the average flight leg used in calculation).

Just to ram it home, the 'bitflip' testing has demonstrated that a catastrophic failure mode still existed even with MCAS V2.0 fitted rightly requiring resolution prior to return to flight.

Ray
 
planecane
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:12 pm

aerolimani wrote:
planecane wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
That's rubbish. The design flaws of the MAX were overwhelming pilots and have killed hundreds of people. For them, it was a death trap. Conflicting error messages. A failing aircraft on many levels (due to a system failure, violent control inputs were generated, that countered the manual flying attempts), not recoverable even by US pilots in simulator despite having learned all the details, that were unknown to the crashed pilots.

You are aware, that the overall safety records in aviation is excellent? The outlier is the safety record of the MAX, which is bad on an unseen level. No other jet passenger aircraft has such an abyssally bad safety record (two crashes within some months less than two years after EIS caused by the same system going haywire). For this reason, the MAX is grounded and not the pilots. The same pilots continue to contribute to the excellent safety record of the A320 and 737NG.

Can we stop perpetuating this myth about pilots that couldn't recover in simulator sessions? Nobody has provided a source for this story. The only simulation that showed that pilots didn't recover was one where the simulation started severely out of trim with electric trim off and it took too much altitude to use the "roller coaster" procedure to recover using the manual wheel.

Since MCAS wasn't included in the MAX simulators it would be difficult to simulate the exact scenario. I am not aware of any documented session where they simulated a similar chain of events starting before the event and having a runaway start upon flaps retraction.

In a flight simulator last week, F.A.A. pilots tested erroneous activations of anti-stall software that pushes down the nose of the Max, two people with knowledge of the matter said. The software, known as MCAS, was involved in two crashes that killed 346 people. In at least one instance, an F.A.A. pilot was unable to quickly and easily follow Boeing’s emergency procedures to regain control of the plane.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/26/busi ... -test.html


I'm pretty sure this ended up being the testing of the bit flipping issue, not MCAS. Why would they be running simulator tests of MCAS 1.0 at the end of June?
 
planecane
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:44 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
planecane wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
That's rubbish. The design flaws of the MAX were overwhelming pilots and have killed hundreds of people. For them, it was a death trap. Conflicting error messages. A failing aircraft on many levels (due to a system failure, violent control inputs were generated, that countered the manual flying attempts), not recoverable even by US pilots in simulator despite having learned all the details, that were unknown to the crashed pilots.

You are aware, that the overall safety records in aviation is excellent? The outlier is the safety record of the MAX, which is bad on an unseen level. No other jet passenger aircraft has such an abyssally bad safety record (two crashes within some months less than two years after EIS caused by the same system going haywire). For this reason, the MAX is grounded and not the pilots. The same pilots continue to contribute to the excellent safety record of the A320 and 737NG.

Can we stop perpetuating this myth about pilots that couldn't recover in simulator sessions? Nobody has provided a source for this story. The only simulation that showed that pilots didn't recover was one where the simulation started severely out of trim with electric trim off and it took too much altitude to use the "roller coaster" procedure to recover using the manual wheel.

Since MCAS wasn't included in the MAX simulators it would be difficult to simulate the exact scenario. I am not aware of any documented session where they simulated a similar chain of events starting before the event and having a runaway start upon flaps retraction.

Brilliant! citing the very example of failure to recover in the same breath as declaration of it as a myth. There are also reports of several other examples of pilots declaring recovery difficult at best. Brilliant 2!, as it were. Reminding us that the simulators were not capable of simulating MCAS, because MCAS was not disclosed to the manufacturer, (not forgetting they were also not capable of adequately simulating manual trim wheel loads either) and then decrying the fact that no simulator sessions simulating MCAS operating on flaps up have been reported - By admission, they could not be done, and in any case such a simulation would be nonsensical in hindsight. The simulations demonstrated that recovery was at best difficult.

In the most accurate and realistic simulations of all, a catastrophic result was demonstrated in 2 of 3 attempts - the MAX cockpit.

To give the benefit of the doubt to Boeing/FAA, it may have come as a sudden realisation, that MCAS V1.0 was fatally flawed and a catastrophic failure mode existed, immediately following the Lion Air crash. That should have been the end of it.

Not withstanding the death and suffering of two crashes, it matters not a jot if simulator demonstrations showed recovery of 49/50 or 4999/5000 attempts, or even if weasel words can be used to suggest the ways that recovery could have been achieved in the two crash events, catastrophic failure mode must be demonstrated to occur at rate worse than ~1 in 100 million flights (depending on the average flight leg used in calculation).

Just to ram it home, the 'bitflip' testing has demonstrated that a catastrophic failure mode still existed even with MCAS V2.0 fitted rightly requiring resolution prior to return to flight.

Ray


You don't need a simulator session to prove that the failures were recoverable. Just read the description and look at the data from Lion Air 043 in the preliminary report of Lion Air 610. If the runaway stabilizer was recognized, it was recoverable. It was recognized on Lion Air 610. All they did was counteracted MCAS and trimmed to neutral with the thumb switch and then cut out the trim switches and solved the problem.

There was a Boeing bulletin published in 1995 that gave recommendations for a freewheeling stabilizer issue on the 737 classic. In this bulletin, it stated that "normal pilot reaction to a runaway stabilizer of opposing the runaway with main electric trim..."

If this was considered to be routine, normal 737 type rated pilot reaction in 1995, why was it unreasonable to expect this reaction in 2018?

Yes, the design of MCAS was atrocious. Yes Boeing increased the occurrence of runaway stabilizer to an unacceptably high rate. However, using those facts to try and say that the flights were unrecoverable is just not a valid argument. On both accident flights, they flew for several minutes after the failure. Lion Air 610 would have landed safely even if they never cut off the electric trim if the captain had kept trimming nose up to counteract MCAS. Unfortunately, he gave the controls to the FO that, for some reason that I hope we discover in the final report, stopped doing that.

There will be arguments that it wasn't easy to recognize because of the stick shaker and unreliable airspeed or the other multitude of things going on. However, if you have the controls, you have to know something is very wrong with the trim system simply based on how much force it is taking to maintain level flight combined with that every time you trim out the force and stop, it goes back to where it takes a lot of force again. Then there will be the argument that MCAS wasn't a "real runaway" because it was intermittent. Really? So why wouldn't that just look like multiple runaway stabilizer events if nothing else? Each activation lasted almost 10 seconds. That isn't a very short amount of time.

In conclusion, Boeing 100% created the emergency situations that wouldn't have otherwise existed if not for their terrible design logic. However, those situations were not "unrecoverable." This is proven by Lion Air 043 and the fact that the failure chronology was extremely similar between Lion Air 043 and the two accident flights. My opinion is that the reason they weren't able to recover was lack of training and focus on runaway stabilizer. I don't believe that disclosure of the existence of MCAS would have made any difference.

I'm willing to bet that if somebody on here paid for a simulator session and put me at the controls and simulated the failure as close as possible, that I, who has never flown a real aircraft could counteract the runaway and not lose control. I have had a session in a 737-800 simulator where I was able to handle the controls for takeoff and follow the flight director for climb out without difficulty. Within the first 10 minutes of that session, it became instinctive to trim out the control forces with the thumb switch.

I am fully prepared for the usual group to now attack this post, accuse me of working as a secret PR plant for Boeing, etc. The truth is that I'm just an engineer with an interest in aviation. In a past job I specialized in root causing failures in electronic products. I also do not own any Boeing stock (maybe a mutual fund I have does). I did in the past but sold it shortly after the ET crash to take a nice percentage profit and remove the long term risk.
 
morrisond
Posts: 1364
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:58 pm

par13del wrote:
there really is nothing for them to do, and with all the bills that Boeing has to pay, may as well lay them off, especially since their parking spaces have already been taken.


Great line about the parking spaces.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21363
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:06 pm

morrisond wrote:
par13del wrote:
there really is nothing for them to do, and with all the bills that Boeing has to pay, may as well lay them off, especially since their parking spaces have already been taken.

Great line about the parking spaces.

Unless of course if it is your livelihood and your family's livelihood that is being provided for by use of that parking space, then it is no joke.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9042
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:15 pm

Revelation wrote:
par13del wrote:
I would not be shocked if Boeing downsizes that team since they already have others working on the 797, and since the 777-9 is just awaiting an engine, there really is nothing for them to do, and with all the bills that Boeing has to pay, may as well lay them off, especially since their parking spaces have already been taken.

That's cold, man, ice cold.

Yet this is a corporation we're talking about.

When MAX was thought to be a problem for a small number of months it was not really going to be a problem for a company as big as Boeing to ride out.

Now that it is many months with no cash coming in from it's best selling and most profitable product, it really is a problem.

NMA's business case was already a challenge.

With MAX cleaning out all the fiscal cupboards, it's now pretty clear to me at least that NMA is in great danger of smelling mothballs too.

My bad on the parking, weird sense of humor, apologies to your comrades in arms.
However, your point is valid, the MAX problem has grown greater than they expected, I do think that it is putting them in a position where they will have to SPEND money to MAKE money. Cash flow is down, they can try to increase it by pushing out 787's as fast as airlines are willing to take them, that is the only project able to assist. The 777-9 is awaiting GE, the tanker is the tanker, the trainer is a few years out, so I would say borrow money and bring the NMA / MOM to market based on the premise that you may be able to keep a number of MAX clients in the fold versus seeing them increase and or go over to Airbus for A321's. I do not think you will see many airlines if any cancel their MAX order to switch to A320NEO's but you may see decreases and purchases of A321NEO's to "expand" capacity and or range. The NMA / MOM would allow those clients to stay in the fold, then, when the NSA comes out, they just switch from the MAX.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 637
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:21 pm

planecane wrote:
In conclusion, Boeing 100% created the emergency situations that wouldn't have otherwise existed if not for their terrible design logic. However, those situations were not "unrecoverable." This is proven by Lion Air 043 and the fact that the failure chronology was extremely similar between Lion Air 043 and the two accident flights. My opinion is that the reason they weren't able to recover was lack of training and focus on runaway stabilizer. I don't believe that disclosure of the existence of MCAS would have made any difference.

Aircraft safety is to ensure that only a very very low probability of fatal accident for _ALL_ flights and events, not about your own opinion that a particular couple of events could be recoverable by a unknown probability. The raw facts are that this probability (using 2 pilots) is abyssal compared to the actual standard. Also, providing the training material to inform the pilot about the 737-8/9 MAX new failure mode is 100% the Boeing responsibility. Your believe is impossible to prove since the MCAS existence has been disclosed (with devastating effect on Boeing reputation) so you can't use it as an argument.
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:35 pm

With Lion 043 I have not seen an account of exactly at what stage the MCAS fault occured that was corrected. If this occured at altitude, instead of at take off it might explain why they had the opportunity to find the error and correct with the aid of the additional pilot.
 
planecane
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:55 pm

Exeiowa wrote:
With Lion 043 I have not seen an account of exactly at what stage the MCAS fault occured that was corrected. If this occured at altitude, instead of at take off it might explain why they had the opportunity to find the error and correct with the aid of the additional pilot.


From the preliminary report:

The aircraft departed at 1420 UTC (2220 LT) at night time, the DFDR showed the stick shaker activated during the rotation and remained active throughout the flight


Both this statement and the plot included in the report show that the failure occurred shortly after takeoff (upon flaps retraction) just like the two crash flights.
 
ArgentoSystems
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:05 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:01 pm

Canada's Sunwing keeps Boeing 737 MAX off its schedule until May 2020

https://ca.reuters.com/article/business ... 529S-OCABS
 
beechnut
Posts: 751
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Due to the 737 MAX grounding, GOL is leasing 13 737NG

Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:15 pm

spongenotbob wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Although there is a typo...B727-800!


That’s not a typo, that’s Boeing’s new and improved name for the MAX!


No no no, it's their solution to getting rid of MCAS. The issue was too-big engines too-far forward required MCAS to correct some funny flying characteristics. So they're axing the two big engines for 3 smaller ones. The reason the ungrounding is taking so long is they needed to re-engineer the tail for that third engine :lol:

Beech
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5650
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:35 pm

beechnut wrote:
spongenotbob wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Although there is a typo...B727-800!


That’s not a typo, that’s Boeing’s new and improved name for the MAX!


No no no, it's their solution to getting rid of MCAS. The issue was too-big engines too-far forward required MCAS to correct some funny flying characteristics. So they're axing the two big engines for 3 smaller ones. The reason the ungrounding is taking so long is they needed to re-engineer the tail for that third engine :lol:


Naah. They will just mount the third engine at the tail, with no vertical stab. They will program MCAS 3.0, which ensures lateral stability with state-of-the-art differential thrust.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21549
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:20 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Naah. They will just mount the third engine at the tail, with no vertical stab. They will program MCAS 3.0, which ensures lateral stability with state-of-the-art differential thrust.


...which will be based on input from one single yaw vane mounted on top of the fuselage where it's difficult to service.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21363
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 pm

Some actual grounding/ungrounding news/rumours from Bloomberg: FAA Poised to Say Pilots Don’t Need Fresh 737 Max Simulator Training:

U.S. aviation regulators are increasingly convinced they don’t need to mandate new simulator training for pilots of Boeing Co.’s 737 Max before returning the grounded jet to service, according to people familiar with the discussions.

Pilots would be required instead to take a computer-based training course they could perform at home or in a classroom, according to the people, who weren’t authorized to speak about the matter and asked not to be identified. More extensive simulator-based training for all 737 Max pilots may be required in the months after flights resume, the people said.

Such a decision would help streamline the return of the plane linked to two fatal crashes and mired in multiple investigations and spare airlines millions of dollars in costs. But it would run contrary to demands by relatives of the victims and some pilots such as Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger, who crash-landed an airliner in New York’s Hudson River in 2009, and may make it harder to reassure a skeptical public of the plane’s safety.

Indeed, it would not be a popular choice.

Some rationale:

However, Boeing has developed a software change that reduces the chances of an MCAS malfunction. The company hopes to submit the package, including proposed new training, for approval by the end of September.

If the FAA is satisfied that those changes will minimize the risk of any future MCAS failures, that significantly lowers the need to show pilots how MCAS behaves in a simulator before returning the plane to service, said Jeffrey Guzzetti, the former FAA head of accident investigation who now works as a consultant.

“Definitely, the two accidents cry out for additional or enhanced training in some fashion,” Guzzetti said. “I just don’t think it needs to be simulator training right now to unground the airplane.”

The article goes on to discuss the dollars and cents issues vs the concerns of the stakeholders.

It seems that there is a steady stream of news that says FAA will not require sim training once the MCAS fix is released.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
SEU
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:21 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:55 pm

Sunwing airlines cancels MAX flights through May 2020

https://ca.reuters.com/article/business ... 529S-OCABS
 
kalvado
Posts: 2006
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
It seems that there is a steady stream of news that says FAA will not require sim training once the MCAS fix is released.

With training being a big sticking point; and as far as I remember CAA being on record with not allowing overflight of MAX from countries where extra training is not required...
This is going to be yet another episode in the show.
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5650
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:28 pm

DocLightning wrote:
...which will be based on input from one single yaw vane mounted on top of the fuselage where it's difficult to service.


Excellent. Write that down. It would be a pity if we lost such a great idea. Meanwhile, my safety analysis argues that our number of tort lawyers is sufficient.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9042
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:16 pm

Revelation wrote:

Not sure how well the following will go down with the A.Net faithfull.

"The need for additional training following the accidents isn’t in dispute. In both cases, pilots could have saved the planes, as did the ones aboard a Lion Air flight the night before the crash when confronted with an identical malfunction. But the crews on the planes that crashed either didn’t recognize what was happening or became overwhelmed by the multiple alarms and failures that were occurring simultaneously, according to preliminary reports."
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21363
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:27 pm

par13del wrote:
Revelation wrote:

Not sure how well the following will go down with the A.Net faithfull.

"The need for additional training following the accidents isn’t in dispute. In both cases, pilots could have saved the planes, as did the ones aboard a Lion Air flight the night before the crash when confronted with an identical malfunction. But the crews on the planes that crashed either didn’t recognize what was happening or became overwhelmed by the multiple alarms and failures that were occurring simultaneously, according to preliminary reports."

Be prepared for incoming taunts regarding exceptionalism/jingoism/racism/etc from people who then claim safety is their primary concern.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
wingman
Posts: 3773
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:27 pm

Certainly the training component of return to service can be ruled on differently by the various government and regional authorities around the world. The fix itself will surely be approved in concert but I guess each country or region will be allowed to determine the level of training required. I personally find it incredible that the FAA and Boeing would argue against the need for simulator training. Wouldn't any return to service be a slowly ramped up process allowing plenty of time to airline crews to pass sim testing as the aircraft return to service?
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 637
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:31 pm

Revelation wrote:
Some actual grounding/ungrounding news/rumours from Bloomberg: FAA Poised to Say Pilots Don’t Need Fresh 737 Max Simulator Training:
[...]
It seems that there is a steady stream of news that says FAA will not require sim training once the MCAS fix is released.


I can't understand how the decision to not train can be sustained. The training cost is not a decision factor nether for Boeing (fraction of the debacle), nor for the FAA (publicly committed to that position). I highly doubt that pilots will see a disadvantage in a "trim runaway" training, especially in extreme conditions, like at high speed where the wheels can be hard to spin. I don't see how the public could see this training as a disadvantage. Only the operators will have to schedule more pilots training time for a limited period, and ask Boeing for compensations.

Seriously, if training is not done and an incident involving the trim happen, the training will be back on the table the hard way. If everyone want to be confident that everything is done to fix the issue, the training is unavoidable. I also think this would be a strong message to any aircraft manufacturers that a debacle like this is not acceptable anymore and that the safety certification process will be reviewed more carefully.

The 737-8/9 MAX training question have so multiples perception from politic, international agencies, manufacturers, operators, pilots, and passengers that it can't be bound to just a couple of rows with a single letter in a table of the NG to MAX differences.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21363
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:40 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Some actual grounding/ungrounding news/rumours from Bloomberg: FAA Poised to Say Pilots Don’t Need Fresh 737 Max Simulator Training:
[...]
It seems that there is a steady stream of news that says FAA will not require sim training once the MCAS fix is released.


I can't understand how the decision to not train can be sustained. The training cost is not a decision factor nether for Boeing (fraction of the debacle), nor for the FAA (publicly committed to that position). I highly doubt that pilots will see a disadvantage in a "trim runaway" training, especially in extreme conditions, like at high speed where the wheels can be hard to spin. I don't see how the public could see this training as a disadvantage. Only the operators will have to schedule more pilots training time for a limited period, and ask Boeing for compensations.

Seriously, if training is not done and an incident involving the trim happen, the training will be back on the table the hard way. If everyone want to be confident that everything is done to fix the issue, the training is unavoidable. I also think this would be a strong message to any aircraft manufacturers that a debacle like this is not acceptable anymore and that the safety certification process will be reviewed more carefully.

The 737-8/9 MAX training question have so multiples perception from politic, international agencies, manufacturers, operators, pilots, and passengers that it can't be bound to just a couple of rows with a single letter in a table of the NG to MAX differences.

There will be training. The story suggests that FAA will mandate computer-based training rather than sim-based training, but of course airlines and other regulators are free to go beyond this. Sorry if my post was misleading in any way.

Note that I posted above WN has just installed a MAX sim and will have 6 in house by end of 2021, and something tells me they will get a lot of use running MCAS-related scenarios.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9042
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:47 pm

wingman wrote:
Wouldn't any return to service be a slowly ramped up process allowing plenty of time to airline crews to pass sim testing as the aircraft return to service?

Whose simulator do you want to use, unlike those who jumped to program NG simulators to show how MCAS worked or did not work, folks will want to use MAX simulators if their government mandates training. We know they are in short supply. 300+ MAX's which were already flying will be the first to be returned to service, if the airlines are allowed to load the software update it will be even quicker.
If mandatory for return to flight, the lines for SIM time will be long and if in private non-airline hands will be a major economic boost.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2006
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:53 pm

Revelation wrote:
There will be training. The story suggests that FAA will mandate computer-based training rather than sim-based training, but of course airlines and other regulators are free to go beyond this.

I wonder if this is considered an upgrade or a downgrade from iPad based training...
 
LY777
Posts: 2531
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:54 pm

Hi
I haven’t followed the thread and I am not an engineer, but I have one question: what is Boeing actually working on? If an update of the MCAS is not sufficient, do they plan to modify the design of the plane?
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
RandWkop
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 10:56 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:58 pm

par13del wrote:
Revelation wrote:

Not sure how well the following will go down with the A.Net faithfull.

"The need for additional training following the accidents isn’t in dispute. In both cases, pilots could have saved the planes, as did the ones aboard a Lion Air flight the night before the crash when confronted with an identical malfunction. But the crews on the planes that crashed either didn’t recognize what was happening or became overwhelmed by the multiple alarms and failures that were occurring simultaneously, according to preliminary reports."


The crew on duty didn`t identify the problem. The 3rd pilot, with nothing else occupying him, suggested the solution. It looks like two of the US pilots unions want simulator training at some point. But they don`t see it as a prerequisite for un-grounding the plane.
Will the FAA lift the grounding, in the US alone, or have they already come to an agreement with EASA, CAAC and other agencies in private. Maybe simulator training will be required in other jurisdictions.
It`s starting to look like the MAX will be back in the air before the end of the year. It has to be safe as another crash would destroy it.
One thing that came out of this for me is that the idea that Boeing was panicked into the MAX by the NEO. The problem with that idea is that Airbus did not have and couldn`t create the capacity to have the whole market to themselves. So Boeing could have spent the time and money to make "a safe plane even safer". But they took the quick buck instead.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21363
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:24 am

kalvado wrote:
Revelation wrote:
There will be training. The story suggests that FAA will mandate computer-based training rather than sim-based training, but of course airlines and other regulators are free to go beyond this.

I wonder if this is considered an upgrade or a downgrade from iPad based training...

The Bloomberg article says:

Pilots would be required instead to take a computer-based training course they could perform at home or in a classroom

I don't know if this home computer needs to have a keyboard or can be a tablet.

LY777 wrote:
Hi
I haven’t followed the thread and I am not an engineer, but I have one question: what is Boeing actually working on? If an update of the MCAS is not sufficient, do they plan to modify the design of the plane?

Media reports suggest that a solution for MCAS has been found and they are largely working on other problems found by increased scrutiny in the post-MCAS environment. So far the changes we know of are largely changes to the software in the flight control computer, but these probably rise to the level of what software engineers would call design changes.

aerolimani wrote:
My use of the word meaningful is more in the sense of whether any new training requirements are meaningfully different from the iPad course originally prescribed.

I thought the issue was that no MCAS training was originally proscribed.

As above it is currently thought but not confirmed that FAA will require computer based training, but not simulator based training, and airlines and other regulators will be free to go beyond those recommendations.

Personally I would think computer based training would be a bare minimum, and if sims are not practical, I would think both passing computer based exams along some sort of 1:1 interaction with a training captain / instructor pilot should be performed. The training captain could check that the pilots really understand the MCAS related procedures and could answer any questions. I've done similar things in my humble glider pilot world, and have found them to be worth the effort.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
sgrow787
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:33 am

wingman wrote:
I personally find it incredible that the FAA and Boeing would argue against the need for simulator training.


But the assumption on pilot performance - which at the time of certification, was based on an existing Runaway Stab Trim Recovery NNC - is the key kingpin that the entire design and certification (and therefore the FAA and Boeing's case) is based on. According to this article from the Seattle Times the FAA had approved Boeing's assumption that pilot performance would be the backstop to a failed MCAS:

https://www-seattletimes-com.cdn.amppro ... eguards%2F

That assumption allowed Boeing to convince the FAA that the safety level of MCAS should be major not hazardous. The major classification allowed the single sensor MCAS design to go forward. Boeing's concealment (from the FAA) of MCAS authority change from 0.6 to 2.5 deg/cycle, furthered the safety classification of major, and hence further allowed that design to go forward.
Last edited by sgrow787 on Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
asdf
Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:45 am

sgrow787 wrote:
wingman wrote:
I personally find it incredible that the FAA and Boeing would argue against the need for simulator training.


But the assumption on pilot performance is the key kingpin that the entire design and certification (and therefore the FAA and Boeing's case) is based on. According to this article from the Seattle Times the FAA had approved Boeing's assumption that pilot performance would be the backstop to a failed MCAS:

https://www-seattletimes-com.cdn.amppro ... eguards%2F

That assumption allowed Boeing to convince the FAA that the safety level of MCAS should be major not hazardous. The major classification allowed the single sensor MCAS design to go forward. Boeing's concealment (from the FAA) of MCAS authority change from 0.6 to 2.5 deg/cycle, furthered the safety classification of major, and hence further allowed that design to go forward.


Well, if the pilot is the backstop .... they dont need to change the MCAS
No 2nd sensor
No redundances

They can unground them straight away ...
 
sgrow787
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:54 am

asdf wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
wingman wrote:
I personally find it incredible that the FAA and Boeing would argue against the need for simulator training.


But the assumption on pilot performance is the key kingpin that the entire design and certification (and therefore the FAA and Boeing's case) is based on. According to this article from the Seattle Times the FAA had approved Boeing's assumption that pilot performance would be the backstop to a failed MCAS:

https://www-seattletimes-com.cdn.amppro ... eguards%2F

That assumption allowed Boeing to convince the FAA that the safety level of MCAS should be major not hazardous. The major classification allowed the single sensor MCAS design to go forward. Boeing's concealment (from the FAA) of MCAS authority change from 0.6 to 2.5 deg/cycle, furthered the safety classification of major, and hence further allowed that design to go forward.


Well, if the pilot is the backstop .... they dont need to change the MCAS
No 2nd sensor
No redundances

They can unground them straight away ...


You forgot to insert the words "if we continue to accept Boeing's assumption". The fact that they are changing to 2 sensor does imply that MCAS 2.0 will be reclassified as hazardous, if not catastrophic (two crashes killing two hulls and 346 lives).

It's quite possible Foeing continues with the major classification, requiring no simulator training, and then behind closed doors encourages airlines (eg Southwest) to order Max simulators.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:30 am

asdf wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
wingman wrote:
I personally find it incredible that the FAA and Boeing would argue against the need for simulator training.


But the assumption on pilot performance is the key kingpin that the entire design and certification (and therefore the FAA and Boeing's case) is based on. According to this article from the Seattle Times the FAA had approved Boeing's assumption that pilot performance would be the backstop to a failed MCAS:

https://www-seattletimes-com.cdn.amppro ... eguards%2F

That assumption allowed Boeing to convince the FAA that the safety level of MCAS should be major not hazardous. The major classification allowed the single sensor MCAS design to go forward. Boeing's concealment (from the FAA) of MCAS authority change from 0.6 to 2.5 deg/cycle, furthered the safety classification of major, and hence further allowed that design to go forward.


Well, if the pilot is the backstop .... they dont need to change the MCAS
No 2nd sensor
No redundances

They can unground them straight away ...


But to get to your point, I think the answer is no, we can't assume Boeing will change their safety classification just because they're moving to a two sensor design. The plane is grounded.
There have been two crashes claiming 346 lives. Something had to change.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
planecane
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:59 am

par13del wrote:
Revelation wrote:

Not sure how well the following will go down with the A.Net faithfull.

"The need for additional training following the accidents isn’t in dispute. In both cases, pilots could have saved the planes, as did the ones aboard a Lion Air flight the night before the crash when confronted with an identical malfunction. But the crews on the planes that crashed either didn’t recognize what was happening or became overwhelmed by the multiple alarms and failures that were occurring simultaneously, according to preliminary reports."


I've posted this exact sentiment many times and been accused of being a Boeing PR plant. Will this being published by respected media earn me some respect for my opinions? I even had a member add me to his ignore list over this opinion.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9042
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:39 am

RandWkop wrote:
One thing that came out of this for me is that the idea that Boeing was panicked into the MAX by the NEO. The problem with that idea is that Airbus did not have and couldn`t create the capacity to have the whole market to themselves. So Boeing could have spent the time and money to make "a safe plane even safer". But they took the quick buck instead.

All well and good, but if your customers do not want to wait and you can upgrade the 737 like you did countless time before.......
Ever see a picture of the original 737 and compare it to the NG or even the MAX?
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1199
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:45 am

planecane wrote:
par13del wrote:
Revelation wrote:

Not sure how well the following will go down with the A.Net faithfull.

"The need for additional training following the accidents isn’t in dispute. In both cases, pilots could have saved the planes, as did the ones aboard a Lion Air flight the night before the crash when confronted with an identical malfunction. But the crews on the planes that crashed either didn’t recognize what was happening or became overwhelmed by the multiple alarms and failures that were occurring simultaneously, according to preliminary reports."


I've posted this exact sentiment many times and been accused of being a Boeing PR plant. Will this being published by respected media earn me some respect for my opinions? I even had a member add me to his ignore list over this opinion.

At this point, I think it is unimportant whether the flights could have been saved or not. Rather, the question should be whether it was reasonable to expect the pilots to be the backstop against MCAS v1. For me, that is a resounding NO, it was absolutely not reasonable. I sincerely hope you feel the same.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos