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TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:43 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Anyone can crash any aircraft by doing inappropriately, no even need of any training for that. :tombstone:
As for the American Airlines Flight 587:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_587#Findings


I smell hypocrisy. Some of you claimed Boeing was at fault for making planes too complicated for the average pilot. So why should Airbus be let off the hook for designing a plane that allowed the rudder to travel beyond design limits?


The rudder did not travel past design limits. The point was the pilot or copilot applied full rudder to one side followed by full rudder to the other side several times in quick succession. all the time the rudder answered to his commands. He ended up with over stressing the vertical fin. The simple solution was to avoid applying full rudder side to side, no sensible reason to do it.

How does that compare to not being able to use manual trim in part of the flight envelope of the 737MAX?

The rudder of the A300 answers to inputs of the pilot in all parts of the flight envelope. The A300 is an airplane without an FBW, so you can not expect protections against crazy pilot inputs, but you can expect the manual trim to work when you need it


There are others who have a different opinion on the matter.

http://old.seattletimes.com/html/opinio ... ard02.html
 
kayik
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:59 pm

Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

https://www.spiegel.de/international/bu ... 82869.html


"The lawyers in New York already know who the judge will be. His name is Alonso, a youthful-looking man who was appointed under Barack Obama. "This is his first major aviation case," Green says. .... (The $100 million that Boeing offered as compensation to families of the victims in early July is likely a joke in their eyes.)..."
 
freakyrat
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:10 pm

https://seekingalpha.com/article/428660 ... neers-view

This explains the MAX from an aeronautical engineers view and what exactly went wrong. It explains what MCAS is really for. It's not anti-stall software it controls control column feel at certain angles of attack to meet certification standards required because of the larger engines and their location and is an integral part of the system called STS on the MAX. STS is a system on ALL Boeing 737 aircraft. Boeing in order to get the aircraft to market underestimated the system and the need for backups in the design. The 737 MAX is a safe aircraft with or without MCAS and the redesign of the MCAS software to make it more robust with multiple backups of data sources etc. will ensure that the system will not go rougue.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:26 pm

kayik wrote:
Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

https://www.spiegel.de/international/bu ... 82869.html


"The lawyers in New York already know who the judge will be. His name is Alonso, a youthful-looking man who was appointed under Barack Obama. "This is his first major aviation case," Green says. .... (The $100 million that Boeing offered as compensation to families of the victims in early July is likely a joke in their eyes.)..."


Sorry to disappoint you but the trial will be based on facts, not emotion. If the payout is comparable to previous crashes then I'm not sure what they would be complaining about. Dead is dead. It doesn't matter if it was an engineering defect, pilot error, or bad maintenance. And I'm not sure why you are going on about the judge's age or who appointed him. Are you suggesting he will act in a manner that defies the law or legal precedence? There are lawyers much smarter and powerful than any of us who will sniff out any funny business from the judge and have him removed from the case so fast it would make your head spin.
 
kayik
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:31 pm

Part 3: How Did the 737 Max Get Approved in the First Place?

https://www.spiegel.de/international/bu ... 869-3.html
 
IADFCO
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:25 am

ACATROYAL wrote:
If there is anything I have learned in life and that is...don't believe anything until you actually see it!! Boeing is notorious for blowing lots of smoke, especially lately so until I see all the world's aviation authorities clear it for flying this Max Mess remains grounded until further notice...


Maybe it's part of Boeing's smoke and maybe it isn't, but notice how 90% (my guess) of the discussion here on A.net and elsewhere is on MCAS and how to fix it and how it has been fixed, and 10% is on the underlying problem that MCAS is trying to address -- the former is much much easier to address than the latter.

You listen to our pro-Boeing friends here, and MCAS was just developed to address a tiny yoke force feel problem that only happens in a microscopic portion of the flight envelope anyway, and any failure could have been easily and effectively addressed if the pilots had just had the proper training. They leave you wondering what all the fuss is about.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:14 am

From a passenger confort standpoint I would rather fly on an Airbus A320 over the Boeing 737 Max or no Max. The engineers are however correct about the MCAS system. It was put in to comply with certification standards related to yoke force feel. In certain high G situations such as steep turns or high angle of attack the yoke force became lighter and if left that way the aircraft would not have passed the certification standard. The only thing that Boeing messed up on was underestimating the effect of the system in trimming the nose down and not putting in the checks and balances redundancy that they should have put into the software. The story I posted from seeking alpha explains it all and is not Pro Boeing or Pro Airbus or anything. The other mistake Boeing did make was a marketing one in regard to pilot training. Pilots flying any 737 model already knew about the STS system but were never informed about MCAS being a part of it on the MAX and in hindsight should have been taught the differences and specifics and after the FAA and Boeing bring pilots in to fly the simulator they should have a pretty good idea if any additional training will be needed on the updated software.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:33 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Revelation wrote:
A300 flies to this day with a vertical stab you can rip off just by stomping on the rudder pedal above a certain speed.

Anyone can crash any aircraft by doing inappropriately, no even need of any training for that. :tombstone:
As for the American Airlines Flight 587:
The vertical stabilizer's structural performance was determined to be consistent with design specifications and exceeded certification requirements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_587#Findings


I smell hypocrisy. Some of you claimed Boeing was at fault for making planes too complicated for the average pilot. So why should Airbus be let off the hook for designing a plane that allowed the rudder to travel beyond design limits?
The pilots were trained to do this. Not by Airbus. Of you are going to train pilots to perform a dangerous manoeuvre, make sure that the plane can do it safely. No other pilots with standard training crashed this way.
 
kevin5345179
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:34 am

a bit surprise no one posted this yet
FT reports:

Avia wants to cancel the order for 35 737MAX8 and wants to get deposit of 35M back + interests. Avia is also looking for 75M in lost profit and significant amount for punitive damage.

https://www.ft.com/content/30a68cd4-c84 ... 69401ba76f
 
B777LRF
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:36 am

kayik wrote:
Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

https://www.spiegel.de/international/bu ... 82869.html


This series of articles, which everybody on this thread should read and comprehend, is by far the most damaging I've ever read about Boeing, on par with the excellent articles by Dominic Gates.

The take from these articles is, that there is virtually no redeeming qualities about Boeing and the way they've acted, both before and after the accidents.

If I were a Boeing stockholder, I'd be up in arms crying bloody murder and calling for the immediate expulsion of the entire C-suit and board. It's even to the point where I'd have serious doubts boarding any aircraft made by Boeing and, indeed, puts into question the entire viability of the company.
Signature. You just read one.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:48 am

B777LRF wrote:
kayik wrote:
Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

https://www.spiegel.de/international/bu ... 82869.html


This series of articles, which everybody on this thread should read and comprehend, is by far the most damaging I've ever read about Boeing, on par with the excellent articles by Dominic Gates.

The take from these articles is, that there is virtually no redeeming qualities about Boeing and the way they've acted, both before and after the accidents.

If I were a Boeing stockholder, I'd be up in arms crying bloody murder and calling for the immediate expulsion of the entire C-suit and board. It's even to the point where I'd have serious doubts boarding any aircraft made by Boeing and, indeed, puts into question the entire viability of the company.


Oh good grief. Mr Gates is hardly unbiased. Take a look over the years of his writing and you will see that he has never been fond of Boeing. In fact I would go as far as to say that he has always been openly hostile toward them. He even wrote an article claiming that the cancellation of the A380 program was actually good for Airbus but bad for Boeing. Just another hit piece on Boeing. His articles are good for picking up after your dog at the park but not much else.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:51 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I smell hypocrisy. Some of you claimed Boeing was at fault for making planes too complicated for the average pilot. So why should Airbus be let off the hook for designing a plane that allowed the rudder to travel beyond design limits?


The rudder did not travel past design limits. The point was the pilot or copilot applied full rudder to one side followed by full rudder to the other side several times in quick succession. all the time the rudder answered to his commands. He ended up with over stressing the vertical fin. The simple solution was to avoid applying full rudder side to side, no sensible reason to do it.

How does that compare to not being able to use manual trim in part of the flight envelope of the 737MAX?

The rudder of the A300 answers to inputs of the pilot in all parts of the flight envelope. The A300 is an airplane without an FBW, so you can not expect protections against crazy pilot inputs, but you can expect the manual trim to work when you need it


There are others who have a different opinion on the matter.

http://old.seattletimes.com/html/opinio ... ard02.html


A friend of the pilots, that could not accept the NTSB final report, putting up a conspiracy theory.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:08 pm

They all lie. Der Spiegel, The New York Times, The Telegraph, The Guardian, FOX, CNN.

They're all very selective with what facts they choose to tell, and what truths they omit - all creating a narrative that fits their world view.
 
bob75013
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:08 pm

There's been no announcment about the grounding being lifted, but when Boeing does things like this, IT IS telling eveyone that the grounding will soon be lifted:

"Citing three anonymous sources, Reuters revealed that Boeing is planning to raise its MAX monthly output by five units to 47 jets in October. After that, it intends to increase the production rate back to its March 2019 level of 52 units in February 2020. Finally, the company is looking to raise the monthly output to a record 57 units in June next year. However, these production estimates are subject to its receiving regulatory safety approval."

https://finance.yahoo.com/m/afcd2d5b-c2 ... lanes.html
 
marcelh
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
kayik wrote:
Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

https://www.spiegel.de/international/bu ... 82869.html

This series of articles, which everybody on this thread should read and comprehend, is by far the most damaging I've ever read about Boeing, on par with the excellent articles by Dominic Gates.

The take from these articles is, that there is virtually no redeeming qualities about Boeing and the way they've acted, both before and after the accidents.

If I were a Boeing stockholder, I'd be up in arms crying bloody murder and calling for the immediate expulsion of the entire C-suit and board. It's even to the point where I'd have serious doubts boarding any aircraft made by Boeing and, indeed, puts into question the entire viability of the company.

That's a hot take on an article that features crude and sensationalist sentences like:

It was only by way of such string-and-chewing-gum tricks that engineers were able to achieve the stability necessary for safe flight.

Anyone who has participated in this thread for any meaningful period of time should be able to see the article for the huge spin job that it is.

It’s not worse than what Mullenburg said: “ make a safe plane even safer.”
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:46 pm

So essentially a slow news day, no new blowers divulging more secrets, now update from Boeing that end August is September, the FAA is mute as usual, the EU and other world regulators no comment, so we are back at each other to keep the thread going.

Cool
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:54 pm

https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/ ... ion-grows/

~3000 pilots from 12 airlines have now signed up to the class action that includes a number accusations:

-'The claim filed with the court said the pilots relied on Boeing’s representations that the 737 MAX series aircraft was not only “safe” but offered the “greatest flexibility, reliability and efficiency in the single-aisle market.”
“In reliance on those representations, the plaintiffs and the members of the respective classes sought or chose employment with and trained to fly the MAX as employees or contractors of 12 international airlines,” the court documents said.
Further, it claims: “The plaintiffs’ personal and professional lives were devastated when Boeing and the FAA engaged in “an unprecedented cover-up of known design flaws of the MAX, which predictably resulted in the crashes of two MAX aircraft and grounding of all MAX aircraft worldwide.”
“As a result, the plaintiffs have suffered and continue to suffer significant lost wages, among other economic and non-economic damages, when the MAX was grounded with no end in sight,” the court documents said.
It also said the plaintiffs suffered severe emotional and mental distress when they were effectively compelled to fly the MAX – placing their lives and the lives of the crews and passengers in danger – despite the growing awareness of the dangerous nature of the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) and other problems that Boeing had previously concealed or failed to disclose to the plaintiffs both before and after a Lion Air 737 MAX 8 crashed in October 2018.'-

Yes, I think most understand its legalese. No, I don't need some remark that it is in someway retroactive and I should be looking to the sunny uplands, nor to be told what my opinion should be. Yes, they are anonymous necessarily so to avoid censure. No, I don't believe they are all just after a fast buck. And finally, yes, I do perceive there is some significance to so many signing up to the accusations made.

Ray
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:26 pm

Ok, so if they want to remain anon, how are they proving that they know exactly when their respective airlines were to receive their MAX a/c whose delay has denied them wages? A airline will have to be named so that their lost wages can be accurately calculated, who will be allowed to see that, only the judge but not Boeing or the airline?
All airlines have their own wage scales, once that is known the group of MAX pilots can be identified, so why not just come out now in the hopes of getting the public on your side so that the company will cancel the MAX order and go to Airbus, after all, that is what this is all about right, not just the money?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:40 pm

I missed one, they are also suing Boeing for their employers forcing them to operate the MAX after the first crash thus causing mental stress, this is after saying that some of them left other airlines to go to ones that would be operating the MAX to increase their earnings and start new careers.
Now we have confirmation that the MAX is worthy competition to the A32XX and is not some 1967 dino well past its used by date, pilots actually change jobs to go fly the MAX.

Go figure
 
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bgm
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:02 pm

par13del wrote:
I missed one, they are also suing Boeing for their employers forcing them to operate the MAX after the first crash thus causing mental stress, this is after saying that some of them left other airlines to go to ones that would be operating the MAX to increase their earnings and start new careers.
Now we have confirmation that the MAX is worthy competition to the A32XX and is not some 1967 dino well past its used by date, pilots actually change jobs to go fly the MAX.

Go figure


It's not really competitive when it's sitting in a parking lot gathering dust, is it? I guess it's using less fuel than the competition...
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:10 pm

I've always been amazed after the Lionair crash. Blaming the pilots, playing perceptions, while dismissing unfavouble "rumours" because we all should wait for the official FAA investigation report late 2019.. Check out the analyses BEFORE the second MAX crash..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... s.amp.html
Last edited by keesje on Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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airnorth
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:11 pm

This looks like another test flight, looks similar in profile to some of the others in the past few days. Just from looking at the FR24 data, is there any way to determine if they are "flying at the edge of the envelope" anywhere?
Again, I am speculating that these flights are test flights for MCAS.

https://www.flightradar24.com/BOE693/21ddb7bf
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:28 pm

airnorth wrote:
This looks like another test flight, looks similar in profile to some of the others in the past few days. Just from looking at the FR24 data, is there any way to determine if they are "flying at the edge of the envelope" anywhere?
Again, I am speculating that these flights are test flights for MCAS.

https://www.flightradar24.com/BOE693/21ddb7bf

I don't think there is any way you can interpolate flight parameters from tracking data. The MCAS is needed at certain AoAs. No tracking data is going to be indicative of AoA. You might be able to see the flight path of a wind-up turn but that's about it.
 
Rbgso
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:46 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
They all lie. Der Spiegel, The New York Times, The Telegraph, The Guardian, FOX, CNN.

They're all very selective with what facts they choose to tell, and what truths they omit - all creating a narrative that fits their world view.


This is 100% correct. There is little true journalism these days.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:57 am

Seems some expectations may need to be reset:

American Airlines Group Inc (AAL.O) is “confident” that its Boeing Co (BA.N) 737 MAX aircraft will fly this year, in time for the holidays, Senior Vice President of Customer Experience Kerry Philipovitch told reporters on Tuesday.

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amer ... SKCN1VH27Z

First time an airline exec has been so bold on the record regarding RTS in Q4.

And:

Renaming the Boeing 737 Max is off the table at Southwest Airlines.

In an effort to be transparent with customers, the Dallas-based carrier has chosen to retain the "Max" handle when the type returns to the skies, says chief revenue officer Andrew Watterson.
...
"We will not change the name of the aircraft. That would be disingenuous," Watterson tells FlightGlobal during the Boyd Group International Forecast Summit in Las Vegas. "It will still be called the Max for us."

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -l-460469/

The article gives a run down of WN's return to service plans, which don't seem to have time built in for sim training.

WN's biggest concern seems to be getting all the MAXes it has on order delivered without too much delay.
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juliuswong
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:10 am

Boeing faces first lawsuit from its B737max customers due to delivery delay.

Russian firm Avia Capital Services (ACS), a unit of Russian's Rostec conglomerate is now suing Boeing to cancel an order for 35 B737max, claiming Boeing "intentionally" failed to disclose information about the airworthiness of the Max jets to its customers.

They also accuse Boeing of negligence in selling the "defective" aircraft. In addition to seeking to cancel the order, ACS is also seeking $115 million in compensatory damages relating to order cancellation and several times that amount in punitive damages.

Source:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-737 ... 019-08-27/
https://time.com/5662387/boeing-737-max-lawsuit/
https://www.manager-magazin.de/unterneh ... 83843.html
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JonesNL
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:46 am

juliuswong wrote:
Boeing faces first lawsuit from its B737max customers due to delivery delay.

Russian firm Avia Capital Services (ACS), a unit of Russian's Rostec conglomerate is now suing Boeing to cancel an order for 35 B737max, claiming Boeing "intentionally" failed to disclose information about the airworthiness of the Max jets to its customers.

They also accuse Boeing of negligence in selling the "defective" aircraft. In addition to seeking to cancel the order, ACS is also seeking $115 million in compensatory damages relating to order cancellation and several times that amount in punitive damages.

Source:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-737 ... 019-08-27/
https://time.com/5662387/boeing-737-max-lawsuit/
https://www.manager-magazin.de/unterneh ... 83843.html


Not sure if it is a good strategy to sue your main supplier. They probably have to knock on Boeings door in the next couple of years and I am sure if Boeing will be delighted to sell them at nice premium for getting sued...

I think it is much wiser to start the discussion and tell Boeing that you want out and that they should understand why. In that way you safe yourself the hassle of enriching lawyers...
 
Asiaflyer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:40 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
kayik wrote:
Boeing's Crashes Expose Systemic Failings

https://www.spiegel.de/international/bu ... 82869.html


"The lawyers in New York already know who the judge will be. His name is Alonso, a youthful-looking man who was appointed under Barack Obama. "This is his first major aviation case," Green says. .... (The $100 million that Boeing offered as compensation to families of the victims in early July is likely a joke in their eyes.)..."


Sorry to disappoint you but the trial will be based on facts, not emotion. If the payout is comparable to previous crashes then I'm not sure what they would be complaining about. Dead is dead. It doesn't matter if it was an engineering defect, pilot error, or bad maintenance. And I'm not sure why you are going on about the judge's age or who appointed him. Are you suggesting he will act in a manner that defies the law or legal precedence? There are lawyers much smarter and powerful than any of us who will sniff out any funny business from the judge and have him removed from the case so fast it would make your head spin.

Sorry to disappoint you but dead is not the same as dead from a legal perspective. If you kill someone by accident while driving your car or if you kill someone intentionally with a gun from 1 meters distance, your punishment will for sure be different. Same goes for Boeing. If they knew about the 737MAX errors and defects before the crashes and could have prevented it wont help Boeing in this case. Everything will be turned inside out to find out the facts and liabilities.
 
marcelh
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:11 am

Revelation wrote:
Seems some expectations may need to be reset:

American Airlines Group Inc (AAL.O) is “confident” that its Boeing Co (BA.N) 737 MAX aircraft will fly this year, in time for the holidays, Senior Vice President of Customer Experience Kerry Philipovitch told reporters on Tuesday.

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amer ... SKCN1VH27Z

First time an airline exec has been so bold on the record regarding RTS in Q4.

And:

Renaming the Boeing 737 Max is off the table at Southwest Airlines.

In an effort to be transparent with customers, the Dallas-based carrier has chosen to retain the "Max" handle when the type returns to the skies, says chief revenue officer Andrew Watterson.
...
"We will not change the name of the aircraft. That would be disingenuous," Watterson tells FlightGlobal during the Boyd Group International Forecast Summit in Las Vegas. "It will still be called the Max for us."

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -l-460469/

The article gives a run down of WN's return to service plans, which don't seem to have time built in for sim training.

WN's biggest concern seems to be getting all the MAXes it has on order delivered without too much delay.

Reset expectations? We haven’t heard anything from Boeing/FAA/CAA/EASA/etc. I hope the MAX will return into service ASAP, but AA and WN aren’t at the controls. Don’t get too excited please, more than 300 people died because of a “safe” plane crashed.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:00 am

Rbgso wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
They all lie. Der Spiegel, The New York Times, The Telegraph, The Guardian, FOX, CNN.

They're all very selective with what facts they choose to tell, and what truths they omit - all creating a narrative that fits their world view.


This is 100% correct. There is little true journalism these days.

When I read here that SPIEGEL has written an article about the 737 MAX I thought "oh dear..." I consider the SPIEGEL as "The Sun" (or the Bild Zeitung) for intellectuals. But after reading the article twice, I have to admit, for SPIEGEL, this article isn't actually that bad, as far as I can tell.

But the cover page is definitely lurid: in the style of "The Loch Ness Monster" they have chosen the title "The Seattle Monster" together with this cover picture:
Image
:roll:
 
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RobK
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:45 am

airnorth wrote:
This looks like another test flight, looks similar in profile to some of the others in the past few days. Just from looking at the FR24 data, is there any way to determine if they are "flying at the edge of the envelope" anywhere?
Again, I am speculating that these flights are test flights for MCAS.

https://www.flightradar24.com/BOE693/21ddb7bf


Your speculation couldn't be more wrong. It was a T'way Air first flight, as reported by several online production tracking blogs.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:31 am

marcelh wrote:
Reset expectations? We haven’t heard anything from Boeing/FAA/CAA/EASA/etc.

We've heard estimates from Boeing's CEO of RTS in early Q4, and now we have an AA executive telling people at an aviation conference that AA's 737s will fly in Q4 before the holidays so maybe as early as mid November. That is a lot different than the 2020 or later predictions we've read on this thread.

I hope the MAX will return into service ASAP, but AA and WN aren’t at the controls.

Of course they are not in control, but all the media reports we have are tracking to the CEO's estimated time line of RTS in Q4.

Don’t get too excited please, more than 300 people died because of a “safe” plane crashed.

It'd be a shame if people were using body counts to weaponize their hate. Boeing admitted mistakes were made and has expressed sorrow for the victims, clearly not enough to satisfy many, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Over time thousands of people have been killed on airplanes yet the public still gets on them.
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:19 pm

juliuswong wrote:
Boeing faces first lawsuit from its B737max customers due to delivery delay.

Russian firm Avia Capital Services (ACS), a unit of Russian's Rostec conglomerate is now suing Boeing to cancel an order for 35 B737max, claiming Boeing "intentionally" failed to disclose information about the airworthiness of the Max jets to its customers.

They also accuse Boeing of negligence in selling the "defective" aircraft. In addition to seeking to cancel the order, ACS is also seeking $115 million in compensatory damages relating to order cancellation and several times that amount in punitive damages.

Source:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-737 ... 019-08-27/
https://time.com/5662387/boeing-737-max-lawsuit/
https://www.manager-magazin.de/unterneh ... 83843.html

My take is this is a negotiation:
1. There will be a surplus of narrowbody aircraft once the MAX grounding is lifted.
2. I speculate MAX lease rates will be a bit less than what they would have been without all the news.

The punitive damages probably won't stick. There will be a negotiation. Either reduced purchase pricing or a cancelation with less penalties. A divorce taught me how much the courts are abused for negotiations. While I do think cancelations will happen, Boeing cannot roll over.

What Boeing must do is take a financial hit on the MAX, enough to reduce profits but not take them to a loss position, to keep customers.

For 35 MAX, $115M dollars is $3.28 per aircraft. Likely deposits plus lost interest. Boeing should be making 15% to 20% per MAX. I could see a discount of $2 million per airframe plus discounted future PiPs. Enough so Boeing doesn't lose money and the leasing company has no issue placing them at a normal profit.

Of course this depends on when the MAX returns to service, obviously under a rebranding after launch to distract the 99% of the population with little attention span. I fully expect discounted PiPs to be a major portion of the compensation. Normally PiPs are sold at 250% to 400% of cost (unless the airframe isn't competitive without them). It will hurt Boeing's future revenue to sell at say 200% of cost, but keeps them viable.

What are airlines going to do otherwise, buy COMAC? Airbus cannot meet demand. I do think this debacle has cut MAX profit by half. Oops.

Lightsaber
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Jamie514
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
It'd be a shame if people were using body counts to weaponize their hate. Boeing admitted mistakes were made and has expressed sorrow for the victims, clearly not enough to satisfy many, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Over time thousands of people have been killed on airplanes yet the public still gets on them.
[/quote]

"Using body counts to weaponize their hate"

Sorry, no. Reality check: These are just the uncomfortable facts you as a Boeing fanboy have to learn to live with.

You veer very close to wanting to censor people from stating facts when you hint that remembering and stating fact on thread is "weaponizing hate".

Fact is theres a death toll and a crash rate orders of magnitude higher than the modern standard.

Fact is Boeings initial response was arrogant and heartless.

Maybe its time to take a step back if the reaction you come up with is so defiant as to suggest by someone stating facts that you're being attacked by weapons of hate.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:52 pm

Jamie514 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It'd be a shame if people were using body counts to weaponize their hate. Boeing admitted mistakes were made and has expressed sorrow for the victims, clearly not enough to satisfy many, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Over time thousands of people have been killed on airplanes yet the public still gets on them.

"Using body counts to weaponize their hate"

Sorry, no. Reality check: These are just the uncomfortable facts you as a Boeing fanboy have to learn to live with.

You veer very close to wanting to censor people from stating facts when you hint that remembering and stating fact on thread is "weaponizing hate".

Fact is theres a death toll and a crash rate orders of magnitude higher than the modern standard.

Fact is Boeings initial response was arrogant and heartless.

Maybe its time to take a step back if the reaction you come up with is so defiant as to suggest by someone stating facts that you're being attacked by weapons of hate.

It's just as valid a point of view to state that some people may react to MAX's immanent return to service as something they find uncomfortable and have to live with, and when they can't they may resort to using body counts to avoid dealing with the reality of the situation.

The crash rate of modern standards doesn't come from small fleets flying small numbers of hours with serious flaws then flying in that condition till the end of their service life.

It's a statistical fallacy to make such a comparison, yet we see it in this thread over and over again.

Back to the old quote "For every complex question there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong".
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
Don’t get too excited please, more than 300 people died because of a “safe” plane crashed.

It'd be a shame if people were using body counts to weaponize their hate. Boeing admitted mistakes were made and has expressed sorrow for the victims, clearly not enough to satisfy many, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Over time thousands of people have been killed on airplanes yet the public still gets on them.

I don't think that the agencies that have prohibited the 737-8/9 MAX flights "hate" Boeing. There all analysed that without grounding the 737-8/9 MAX there will likely fail at there primary mission to ensure flight safety. Such a big number of deaths is not admissible on today standard for a new aircraft and I hope this standard will be the same for any others new aircraft. Everyone have his opinion but the Boeing style of communication about this crisis started a debate on his own and it not hard to find expression of frustration about this from a large panel of peoples, from workers to experts. This frustration is not necessarily "hate", this can very well be real frustration regarding a situation that could have been avoided. Yes this affair is very serious because of the number of deaths, not because of alleged "hate" on Boeing.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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ssteve
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:06 pm

Jamie514 wrote:
Fact is Boeings initial response was arrogant and heartless.


My family and I flew 2 flights on a WN Max between Lion Air and Ethiopian. Not sure how I can best characterize it, but arrogant doesn't come to mind. After the first crash, I'm searching for an antonym for "alacrity," (apathy?) and wondering if that fits, or if there was incipient panic. Probably not. They may have been actually clueless until the second crash, at which point they may have been the last to realize the problem wasn't between the seat and the yoke. It doesn't wreath them in glory by any means, but I read more organizational failure into this than sociopathy.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It'd be a shame if people were using body counts to weaponize their hate. Boeing admitted mistakes were made and has expressed sorrow for the victims, clearly not enough to satisfy many, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Over time thousands of people have been killed on airplanes yet the public still gets on them.

"Using body counts to weaponize their hate"

Sorry, no. Reality check: These are just the uncomfortable facts you as a Boeing fanboy have to learn to live with.

You veer very close to wanting to censor people from stating facts when you hint that remembering and stating fact on thread is "weaponizing hate".

Fact is theres a death toll and a crash rate orders of magnitude higher than the modern standard.

Fact is Boeings initial response was arrogant and heartless.

Maybe its time to take a step back if the reaction you come up with is so defiant as to suggest by someone stating facts that you're being attacked by weapons of hate.

It's just as valid a point of view to state that some people may react to MAX's immanent return to service as something they find uncomfortable and have to live with, and when they can't they may resort to using body counts to avoid dealing with the reality of the situation.

The crash rate of modern standards doesn't come from small fleets flying small numbers of hours with serious flaws then flying in that condition till the end of their service life.

It's a statistical fallacy to make such a comparison, yet we see it in this thread over and over again.

Back to the old quote "For every complex question there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong".


You make a strong claim there (with a spelling mistake) about the imminent RTS and present it as fact, unless you use "immanent" to mean anything that subsequently happens. Maybe back pedal and add a "probable" or "potential" somewhere in that sentence. Just because Boeing and AA seem to be gearing up towards an ungrounding in November does not mean that it will happen like that. The FAA is the one to lead on this, and I'm sure that it will not act without support from other certification bodies around the World. The much talked of fix has not even been delivered to the FAA yet

I would assert that the crash rate of MAX comes from a small fleet flying small hours with serious flaws. This should not RTS until everyone is convinced that all that can be done has been done. By all means, reset the MAX crash rate after RTS, but do not go through a second round of rushing the thing to market
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:22 pm

Revelation wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It'd be a shame if people were using body counts to weaponize their hate. Boeing admitted mistakes were made and has expressed sorrow for the victims, clearly not enough to satisfy many, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Over time thousands of people have been killed on airplanes yet the public still gets on them.

"Using body counts to weaponize their hate"

Sorry, no. Reality check: These are just the uncomfortable facts you as a Boeing fanboy have to learn to live with.

You veer very close to wanting to censor people from stating facts when you hint that remembering and stating fact on thread is "weaponizing hate".

Fact is theres a death toll and a crash rate orders of magnitude higher than the modern standard.

Fact is Boeings initial response was arrogant and heartless.

Maybe its time to take a step back if the reaction you come up with is so defiant as to suggest by someone stating facts that you're being attacked by weapons of hate.

It's just as valid a point of view to state that some people may react to MAX's immanent return to service as something they find uncomfortable and have to live with, and when they can't they may resort to using body counts to avoid dealing with the reality of the situation.

The crash rate of modern standards doesn't come from small fleets flying small numbers of hours with serious flaws then flying in that condition till the end of their service life.

It's a statistical fallacy to make such a comparison, yet we see it in this thread over and over again.

Back to the old quote "For every complex question there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong".

What is uncomfortable is statements about release date from Boeing or some operators while the agencies are actually totally silent on this very date. The reality is that the agencies have there authority to control this date, and this can't be avoided by Boeing nor bey the operators.

I did not search on every prohibition flight order that affected the 737-8/9 MAX, but I am confident that there where all concerned about the flight safety and not about "statistical fallacy".

You can easily avoid "old quote" that can start useless escalation.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:37 pm

sassiciai wrote:
Just because Boeing and AA seem to be gearing up towards an ungrounding in November does not mean that it will happen like that. The FAA is the one to lead on this, and I'm sure that it will not act without support from other certification bodies around the World. The much talked of fix has not even been delivered to the FAA yet

Just as everyone knows 300+ persons died, everyone knows that the a/c will not RTS until the FAA says so. I guess since it is ok to keep fresh in our minds that many persons died it is par for the course to keep reminding everyone that the FAA and not Boeing, AA, WN etc. are responsible for ungrounding the MAX.
It is what it is, we probably just have to gloss over some comments since this is an ongoing thread and not a new one.
 
birdbrainz
Posts: 511
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:13 pm

ssteve wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
Fact is Boeings initial response was arrogant and heartless.


My family and I flew 2 flights on a WN Max between Lion Air and Ethiopian. Not sure how I can best characterize it, but arrogant doesn't come to mind. After the first crash, I'm searching for an antonym for "alacrity," (apathy?) and wondering if that fits, or if there was incipient panic. Probably not. They may have been actually clueless until the second crash, at which point they may have been the last to realize the problem wasn't between the seat and the yoke. It doesn't wreath them in glory by any means, but I read more organizational failure into this than sociopathy.


I agree with the organizational (or perhaps systematic is a better word) failure. Boeing knew there was a big problem before the ET crash. They clearly thought that they'd be able to fix it before another accident happened and they were wrong. They clearly underestimated the risk and consequences of not taking stronger action after the first crash, but to call it "sociopathic" or ever "apathetic" is just being dramatic. How about "naively optimistic" but I'll also agree there's some cluelessness or perhaps hubris in there.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
marcelh
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:24 pm

Jamie514 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It'd be a shame if people were using body counts to weaponize their hate. Boeing admitted mistakes were made and has expressed sorrow for the victims, clearly not enough to satisfy many, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Over time thousands of people have been killed on airplanes yet the public still gets on them.


"Using body counts to weaponize their hate"

Sorry, no. Reality check: These are just the uncomfortable facts you as a Boeing fanboy have to learn to live with.

You veer very close to wanting to censor people from stating facts when you hint that remembering and stating fact on thread is "weaponizing hate".

Fact is theres a death toll and a crash rate orders of magnitude higher than the modern standard.

Fact is Boeings initial response was arrogant and heartless.

Maybe its time to take a step back if the reaction you come up with is so defiant as to suggest by someone stating facts that you're being attacked by weapons of hate.[/quote]
Well said.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:30 pm

ssteve wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
Fact is Boeings initial response was arrogant and heartless.


My family and I flew 2 flights on a WN Max between Lion Air and Ethiopian. Not sure how I can best characterize it, but arrogant doesn't come to mind. After the first crash, I'm searching for an antonym for "alacrity," (apathy?) and wondering if that fits, or if there was incipient panic. Probably not. They may have been actually clueless until the second crash, at which point they may have been the last to realize the problem wasn't between the seat and the yoke. It doesn't wreath them in glory by any means, but I read more organizational failure into this than sociopathy.

Quotes in reports linked from this thread indicate that Boeing/FAA knew within days that the system was "dangerous", there was "high risk" of another event and the FAA had calculated that they had "10 months" before the numbers became unsustainable (in terms of probable collateral damage assumed). Turned out they only had 4.5 months.

Maybe 'calculating' is a word that could be used, perhaps more toward sociopathy that you suggest.

Ray
 
airnorth
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:00 pm

RobK wrote:
airnorth wrote:
This looks like another test flight, looks similar in profile to some of the others in the past few days. Just from looking at the FR24 data, is there any way to determine if they are "flying at the edge of the envelope" anywhere?
Again, I am speculating that these flights are test flights for MCAS.

https://www.flightradar24.com/BOE693/21ddb7bf


Your speculation couldn't be more wrong. It was a T'way Air first flight, as reported by several online production tracking blogs.

Can you please provide a source, I would be interested in following. Thanks
 
Vladex
Posts: 467
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:50 pm

If and when 737 MAX launches again, who will pay and be held responsible for the next crash were it to happen? That's a relevant question not to mention that insurance on these airplanes must be really high by now blowing away any so called discounts.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:10 pm

Vladex wrote:
If and when 737 MAX launches again, who will pay and be held responsible for the next crash were it to happen? That's a relevant question not to mention that insurance on these airplanes must be really high by now blowing away any so called discounts.


When the MAX starts flying again (not if) and there is another MAX crash it depends on the cause. If the MCAS-software is to blame again and it is proven that Boeing cut corners to get the -MAX flying again, you will so probably some criminal cases against the people responsible. But, I think this is highly unlikely, the grounding is bad but is the -MAX has a crash related to the design in the first months after te grounding is lifted, it will be the death sentence to the 737-program. Boeing will be extra careful.
 
jmry888
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:39 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:20 pm

I have read almost all the posts on this subject on this forum. I have about 35 friends who are former military pilots, and we are still searching for the name of the " what do you call them the regulatory agencies for the airlines that crashed their 737 max's ". We have not been able to find an official report with a name and agency on it that gives us what they believe happened from the info from the cockpit voice recordings and the black boxes.

Also if any of you have knowledge when the cockpit voice recordings are going to be released could you please share it ?

It seems lots of people on this forum in this topic have read such a report. Could one of you put a link to where those of us who have not read any official reports could find them,

Thanks for your time in advance.
 
h1fl1er
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:42 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
They all lie. Der Spiegel, The New York Times, The Telegraph, The Guardian, FOX, CNN.

They're all very selective with what facts they choose to tell, and what truths they omit - all creating a narrative that fits their world view.


Der Spiegel? The operation that had an award-winning plagiarist and headline maker who fabricated stories? That operation?

SA has the correct rendition of what MCAS is, and this same information has been detailed many times by people on this forum (who were promptly shouted down as Boeing partisans)
 
RolandRat
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:34 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:45 pm

Jmry888,

No final official report into the Max accidents has yet been published, this will take some time ( a year or more is not uncommon ), however both Ethiopia & Indonesia have released preliminary report's and these may be found here :-

Ethiopia :-

http://www.ecaa.gov.et/documents/20435/ ... af1ee17f3e


Indonesia :-

http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_avia ... Report.pdf

As to full transcripts of the CVR, the investigating authorities are under no obligation to release them, but you will find excerpts reproduced in the reports(s) where that portion of the recording is relevant.

Hope this helps

Regards
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:50 pm

jmry888 wrote:
I have read almost all the posts on this subject on this forum. I have about 35 friends who are former military pilots, and we are still searching for the name of the " what do you call them the regulatory agencies for the airlines that crashed their 737 max's ". We have not been able to find an official report with a name and agency on it that gives us what they believe happened from the info from the cockpit voice recordings and the black boxes.

Also if any of you have knowledge when the cockpit voice recordings are going to be released could you please share it ?

It seems lots of people on this forum in this topic have read such a report. Could one of you put a link to where those of us who have not read any official reports could find them,

Thanks for your time in advance.

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/201 ... PRELIM.pdf
https://reports.aviation-safety.net/201 ... MINARY.pdf

Preliminary reports courtesy of ASN. It is unlikely that the CVRs will be released although there is an outside chance we may get to see a transcript at some point. Final report for LionAIr is due before the end of October and Ethiopian by mid March next.

Ray

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