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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:34 pm

seahawk wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
When the FAA has given the green light there is no reason for others to ground the plane.The whole industry suffers if the leading authorities start second guessing each other. So unless the FAA has rejected reasonable concerns by EASA, the EASA should not delay.


Ahh, a change of bait.

Still, don't try too hard - otherwise the waters are muddied and you'll not catch much.

Image


I think it is a serious concern. Nobody is helped by leading authorities mistrusting each other. If the FAA handles the EASA concerns in reasonable and professional matter, EASA should not delay their decision. Nobody should want to go back to the old days, where you had to put your plane through a full certification process with different authorities with changing requirements and vastly different processes.


I agree that the two main aviation authorities - FAA and EASA - should stand in unison when it comes to these things. But I think there was a break of trust between them after the 737 MAX saga. Which is understandable.

As someone who is sceptical towards the current "fix" from Boeing, it gives me faith that EASA has a longer and more complete list of requirements to return the aircraft into service. If Boeing meets all requirements, I will certainly fly the 737 MAX again.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:42 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Iirc, the FAA only grounded it following an Executive Order.

Trust has to be earned.

Incorrect. Trump just likes to try and take credit for everything.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:45 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
2175301 wrote:
gregpodpl wrote:
Is the class "planes that killed 300 people in last year" ?


I'm not sure you understand how big is this classification: A quick review of crash data of aircraft that have been involved in crashes that killed 300 people in a 12 month window produces the following list:

By Family designation (multiple sub derivatives); with the 737 Family being split for clarification of the issue:
A320
B707
B727 - Edited to add later (not sure how I forgot this)
B737 (Classic)
B737 (Max)
B747
DC10

lower the number to say 200 or 250 in a 12 month window and other aircraft gets added.

To the best of my knowledge, extremely few people are afraid to fly these aircraft families today... (I'm don't believe there are any B707, B727, or DC10's left in passenger service - perhaps an isolated few).

Have a great day

Please don't start all this rubbish again. Its been through the mill more times than I care to remember and serves no useful purpose. The thread is related to 737 max crash/grounding and RTS.



I was replying to gregpodpl, who in my opinion makes a false association.

Also, several people in this thread have claimed that they will forever avoid the 737 max8 because of its crash history, or that Boeing made a design error.

Crashes are caused by many things: Design error has previously occurred with all companies and I humbly submit to you that if my list was only aircraft with 300 fatalities in a 12 month period where a design issue was at least a contributing factor - that the list would still include aircraft other than the 737Max group, and those aircraft families went on to continued successful sales and service in many airlines.

I see no evidence that the airlines or general public has considered such a crash history as a reason to avoid the aircraft after the investigation and fix of the issue occurred.

Since I was replying to another post on this thread, and since there are people on this thread claiming the the crash history - or a design failure causing a crash (or crashes) - will significantly affect the future of the 737Max after the investigations and fixes are completed. I believe my post is relevant to this thread.

Perhaps, you could also point out to the people making such claims how false they are and that they serve no useful purpose. That would work to minimize such claims.

Have a great day,
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:00 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
I agree that the two main aviation authorities - FAA and EASA - should stand in unison when it comes to these things. But I think there was a break of trust between them after the 737 MAX saga. Which is understandable.


No idea if EASA felt their strings pulled before ( via the mutual acceptance of certifications. like for the 787.)
Then the FAA seems to have had their own idea of what represents "mutual acceptance of certification"
when they are the downstream party.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:05 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:

Ahh, a change of bait.

Still, don't try too hard - otherwise the waters are muddied and you'll not catch much.

Image


I think it is a serious concern. Nobody is helped by leading authorities mistrusting each other. If the FAA handles the EASA concerns in reasonable and professional matter, EASA should not delay their decision. Nobody should want to go back to the old days, where you had to put your plane through a full certification process with different authorities with changing requirements and vastly different processes.


I agree that the two main aviation authorities - FAA and EASA - should stand in unison when it comes to these things. But I think there was a break of trust between them after the 737 MAX saga. Which is understandable.

As someone who is sceptical towards the current "fix" from Boeing, it gives me faith that EASA has a longer and more complete list of requirements to return the aircraft into service. If Boeing meets all requirements, I will certainly fly the 737 MAX again.


At the moment I can not judge if the FAA has lower requirements or if they are not fully supporting the findings by EASA, but I would agree that the communication towards the public by the FAA leaves a lot to be desired. EASA does instil more confidence. I hope EASA keeps up their clear and professional communication with the public, especially if they disagree with the FAA. They should be fast to point out which points they think were not solved according to their requirements and which questions have been left unanswered. What I would not like is an unexplained delay.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:09 pm

2175301 wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
2175301 wrote:


Please don't start all this rubbish again. Its been through the mill more times than I care to remember and serves no useful purpose. The thread is related to 737 max crash/grounding and RTS.



I was replying to gregpodpl, who in my opinion makes a false association.

I did say please.
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:27 pm

planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
:scratchchin: :mischievous:
(3) or any of the cutout switches (there are connected in serial).
(4) or the right AoA (any too high differences disable MCAS).
(6) Move the yoke in the opposite pitch (MCAS V2 grant elevator authority).


Your (6) will only work on a NG... the column cutout is disengaged on the Max when MCAS Engaged is TRUE. Also the idea is misfunction rather than pilot error. Ie something that happens beyond the pilots control (granted, I included AP, flaps, and cutout switches.... long day..)

Right/leftness is immaterial.

Actually, maybe you can clarify on (6), since Im lost on the elevator thing.


With MCAS 2.0, trimming opposite MCAS also will disengage it IIRC.


The context of the discussion is EASAs request for a flight test w MCAS off.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
ubeema
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:34 pm

seahawk wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
seahawk wrote:

I think it is a serious concern. Nobody is helped by leading authorities mistrusting each other. If the FAA handles the EASA concerns in reasonable and professional matter, EASA should not delay their decision. Nobody should want to go back to the old days, where you had to put your plane through a full certification process with different authorities with changing requirements and vastly different processes.


I agree that the two main aviation authorities - FAA and EASA - should stand in unison when it comes to these things. But I think there was a break of trust between them after the 737 MAX saga. Which is understandable.

As someone who is sceptical towards the current "fix" from Boeing, it gives me faith that EASA has a longer and more complete list of requirements to return the aircraft into service. If Boeing meets all requirements, I will certainly fly the 737 MAX again.


At the moment I can not judge if the FAA has lower requirements or if they are not fully supporting the findings by EASA, but I would agree that the communication towards the public by the FAA leaves a lot to be desired. EASA does instil more confidence. I hope EASA keeps up their clear and professional communication with the public, especially if they disagree with the FAA. They should be fast to point out which points they think were not solved according to their requirements and which questions have been left unanswered. What I would not like is an unexplained delay.

I’m not condoning the FAA lack of communication but I would not be surprised if minimal information sharing is intended to keep what they know or don’t know from being used by plaintiffs lawyers or US DOJ. Clearly EASA have less concerns on the legal side thus a more open communication approach.
 
hivue
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:52 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
I agree that the two main aviation authorities - FAA and EASA - should stand in unison when it comes to these things. But I think there was a break of trust between them after the 737 MAX saga. Which is understandable.


The FAA will not wait too long for other sovereign aviation authorities to agree with them once they decide that the MAX can be returned to revenue service. One of the FAA's mandates is promotion of aviation and the aviation industry in the U.S. RTS for the U.S. only would at least allow Boeing to start to unwind the huge backlog of parked MAXes, and likely allow them to continue at their current MAX production rate without having to slow down/shut down the assembly line.
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WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:10 pm

hivue wrote:
One of the FAA's mandates is promotion of aviation and the aviation industry in the U.S. RTS for the U.S.


Servant of two masters.

That is in a circuitous way the reason why the MAX is grounded.

Made the FAA a pushover for Boeing.

Too much promotion and not enough supervision.
Murphy is an optimist
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:12 pm

hivue wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
I agree that the two main aviation authorities - FAA and EASA - should stand in unison when it comes to these things. But I think there was a break of trust between them after the 737 MAX saga. Which is understandable.


The FAA will not wait too long for other sovereign aviation authorities to agree with them once they decide that the MAX can be returned to revenue service. One of the FAA's mandates is promotion of aviation and the aviation industry in the U.S. RTS for the U.S. only would at least allow Boeing to start to unwind the huge backlog of parked MAXes, and likely allow them to continue at their current MAX production rate without having to slow down/shut down the assembly line.


The FAA will lose [even more] credibility by not working with EASA. With or without another crash.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:21 pm

WIederling wrote:
hivue wrote:
One of the FAA's mandates is promotion of aviation and the aviation industry in the U.S. RTS for the U.S.


Servant of two masters.

That is in a circuitous way the reason why the MAX is grounded.

Made the FAA a pushover for Boeing.

Too much promotion and not enough supervision.

Well if history is anything to go by................
 
gregpodpl
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:54 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
I was replying to gregpodpl, who in my opinion makes a false association.

And I was commenting on "will be the safest plane in its class" - which is another version of "we are making the safe plane safer" nonsense.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:57 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:

Your (6) will only work on a NG... the column cutout is disengaged on the Max when MCAS Engaged is TRUE. Also the idea is misfunction rather than pilot error. Ie something that happens beyond the pilots control (granted, I included AP, flaps, and cutout switches.... long day..)

Right/leftness is immaterial.

Actually, maybe you can clarify on (6), since Im lost on the elevator thing.


With MCAS 2.0, trimming opposite MCAS also will disengage it IIRC.


The context of the discussion is EASAs request for a flight test w MCAS off.


I missed that. I assume they can load a test build of software without MCAS enabled.
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:14 pm

planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:

With MCAS 2.0, trimming opposite MCAS also will disengage it IIRC.


The context of the discussion is EASAs request for a flight test w MCAS off.


I missed that. I assume they can load a test build of software without MCAS enabled.


That would work except they would want the released build just so the results couldnt be questioned. Obviously my option (5) is a modified build, so option (3) (cutout switches) looks like the one to use (to test aerodynamic stability during near-stall without MCAS).
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:46 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:

The context of the discussion is EASAs request for a flight test w MCAS off.


I missed that. I assume they can load a test build of software without MCAS enabled.


That would work except they would want the released build just so the results couldnt be questioned. Obviously my option (5) is a modified build, so option (3) (cutout switches) looks like the one to use (to test aerodynamic stability during near-stall without MCAS).


I agree that cutout switches should accomplish the goal just fine. You wouldn't be trimming during the test so it wouldn't matter if electric trim was off.
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:50 pm

planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:

I missed that. I assume they can load a test build of software without MCAS enabled.


That would work except they would want the released build just so the results couldnt be questioned. Obviously my option (5) is a modified build, so option (3) (cutout switches) looks like the one to use (to test aerodynamic stability during near-stall without MCAS).


I agree that cutout switches should accomplish the goal just fine. You wouldn't be trimming during the test so it wouldn't matter if electric trim was off.


But [manual] electric trim [from the column] does still work when cutout switches are flipped*, no?

*flipped to 'CUTOUT'
Last edited by sgrow787 on Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:53 pm

come on ....
this is a 1960 flight electronic
pull the MCAS fuse or relay and there you go .....

no need to drag on that simple testflight for 5 months ...
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:58 pm

asdf wrote:
come on ....
this is a 1960 flight electronic
pull the MCAS fuse or relay and there you go .....

no need to drag on that simple testflight for 5 months ...


I believe EASA's Ky is reported to have stated they only need a week to do their flight tests.
Last edited by sgrow787 on Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:58 pm

aerolimani wrote:
Revelation wrote:
EASA sure has put itself into the role of king maker, at the risk of becoming another untrusted party should their deeming prove to not be sufficient.

I think the risk is a bit lower for the EASA than for the FAA.
1) They don't suffer the same lack of separation as between Boeing and the FAA, however real or perceived that may be.
2) They lack the potential conflict of interest as the FAA with its mission of "encouraging and developing civil aeronautics, including new aviation technology."
3) The situation has changed from the initial MAX certification. At that time, Boeing's prime imperative was to get the plane to market as quickly as possible. I'm sure Boeing recognizes that there simply cannot be any more screwups.

For the above reasons, should something go wrong, I think the EASA could sufficiently direct blame towards Boeing. I don't think they'd get away without any mud on their face, but I don't think they'd be branded as "another untrusted party."

Patrick Ky's comments on EASA's level of separation:

“Yes, there was a problem in this notion of delegation of the MCAS assessment [to Boeing],” he continued, adding that the conclusion will appear in the Joint Authorities Technical Review’s report scheduled for publication next week. “I have a lot of respect for my counterparts in the FAA; they have strong ethics. But what is needed is a change of their methodology,” explained Ky.

“[A similar situation] would not happen in our system. We have a very structured way of delegating and an agreed methodology,” Ky insisted, though he admitted that with a staff of 800 his agency does not have enough personnel to dissect each software analysis OEM’s like Airbus, Safran, or Rolls-Royce produce. “That is simply impossible,” he stated. “But everything that is safety-critical has to be seen and validated by us.”

Ref: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... lationship

I think the "everything that is safety-critical has to be seen and validated by us" does support my argument that EASA has put itself into the role of king maker, at the risk of becoming another untrusted party should their deeming prove to not be sufficient
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MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
EASA sure has put itself into the role of king maker, at the risk of becoming another untrusted party should their deeming prove to not be sufficient.


They have. And now that the rift is public, the EASA has cards on the table. They now have a dilemma where they can't be seen as backing down from the demands. Their reputation is now dependent on acting strong.

aerolimani wrote:
2) They lack the potential conflict of interest as the FAA with its mission of "encouraging and developing civil aeronautics, including new aviation technology."


Lack a potential conflict of interest . . . that's a good one.

Having planes crash isn't encouraging civil aeronautics. The missions are not mutually exclusive; they overlap.

Erebus wrote:
Nobody is helped if the industry abuses each others' trust (or be allowed to). We are where we are with the MAX exactly because of this.


Abuse of trust implies intent, not just making a mistake. We do not know if we are here because of that.

sgrow787 wrote:
The FAA will lose [even more] credibility by not working with EASA. With or without another crash.


As has been stated, the only way for the FAA to gain credibility is to stand on its own feet. That doesn't mean they can't listen to other authorities, but they must not be subject to them.

Interestingly the EASA's credibility is also now on the line thanks to their public comments.
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:24 pm

MSPNWA wrote:

As has been stated, the only way for the FAA to gain credibility is to stand on its own feet. That doesn't mean they can't listen to other authorities, but they must not be subject to them.


Ultimately, yes. But once you cross a line - and the line was crossed here with the Max certification - you get the training wheels slapped on that bicycle again before trust is restored.

(Gosh, I cant believe we're having this discussion when we still havent given the FAA a chance to respond to EASA's requests. Feels like the Boeing PR machine is prepping us for what they already know is going to happen... they arent going to consider EASA's AOA sensor integrity request, nor their high speed stall test, nor their flight sim request, but instead, will forge along with their own domestic approval, fly for 6 months, and force EASA to go along)
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:45 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Revelation wrote:
EASA sure has put itself into the role of king maker, at the risk of becoming another untrusted party should their deeming prove to not be sufficient.


They have. And now that the rift is public, the EASA has cards on the table. They now have a dilemma where they can't be seen as backing down from the demands. Their reputation is now dependent on acting strong.

aerolimani wrote:
2) They lack the potential conflict of interest as the FAA with its mission of "encouraging and developing civil aeronautics, including new aviation technology."


Lack a potential conflict of interest . . . that's a good one.

Having planes crash isn't encouraging civil aeronautics. The missions are not mutually exclusive; they overlap.

Erebus wrote:
Nobody is helped if the industry abuses each others' trust (or be allowed to). We are where we are with the MAX exactly because of this.


Abuse of trust implies intent, not just making a mistake. We do not know if we are here because of that.

sgrow787 wrote:
The FAA will lose [even more] credibility by not working with EASA. With or without another crash.


As has been stated, the only way for the FAA to gain credibility is to stand on its own feet. That doesn't mean they can't listen to other authorities, but they must not be subject to them.

Interestingly the EASA's credibility is also now on the line thanks to their public comments.

EASA have stepped up to the plate, as they said they would in March - Publicly. They recognise that the integrity of the whole industry rests on the integrity and trust of the regulators. This must be demonstrated - Publicly.

Boeing/FAA must also step up to the plate, this time, and trust is restored and everything is sweetness and light. If not, chaos ensues.

Ray
 
wingman
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
“[A similar situation] would not happen in our system. We have a very structured way of delegating and an agreed methodology,” Ky insisted, though he admitted that with a staff of 800 his agency does not have enough personnel to dissect each software analysis OEM’s like Airbus, Safran, or Rolls-Royce produce. “That is simply impossible,” he stated. “But everything that is safety-critical has to be seen and validated by us.”

Ref: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... lationship

I think the "everything that is safety-critical has to be seen and validated by us" does support my argument that EASA has put itself into the role of king maker, at the risk of becoming another untrusted party should their deeming prove to not be sufficient[/quote]

It's a rare treat to see someone involved in aerospace/engineering/safety use the word "impossible" in relation to all of the possible outcomes of their work. Seeing as how so many people have died on European-built airplanes registered to European airlines and flown by Europeans, I have to chuckle at his hubris. Even at EASA some things are possible.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:36 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:

That would work except they would want the released build just so the results couldnt be questioned. Obviously my option (5) is a modified build, so option (3) (cutout switches) looks like the one to use (to test aerodynamic stability during near-stall without MCAS).


I agree that cutout switches should accomplish the goal just fine. You wouldn't be trimming during the test so it wouldn't matter if electric trim was off.


But [manual] electric trim [from the column] does still work when cutout switches are flipped*, no?

*flipped to 'CUTOUT'


Not unless they made a major, unannounced design change.
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:11 pm

planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:

I agree that cutout switches should accomplish the goal just fine. You wouldn't be trimming during the test so it wouldn't matter if electric trim was off.


But [manual] electric trim [from the column] does still work when cutout switches are flipped*, no?

*flipped to 'CUTOUT'


Not unless they made a major, unannounced design change.

I was hoping for a source but I guess I'll take your word for it.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
kayik
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:23 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:

But [manual] electric trim [from the column] does still work when cutout switches are flipped*, no?

*flipped to 'CUTOUT'


Not unless they made a major, unannounced design change.

I was hoping for a source but I guess I'll take your word for it.


yes, very satisfactory :rotfl:
 
kayik
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:50 pm

Return to Service - EASA conditions

Letter sent to the FAA on April 01, 2019.

4 conditions:

1.Design changes proposed by Boeing are EASA approved (no delegation to FAA)
2.Additional and broader independent design review has been satisfactorily completed by EASA
3.Accidents of JT610 and ET302 are deemed sufficiently understood
4.B737 MAX flight crews have been adequately trained


We have to keep in mind that this letter was written just after the ET crash, sometime in March. I think it took a considerable amount of drafting and time to reach that precise polite wording. Maybe we can translate it into daily language. I will have a go.

1. FAA is not trustworthy and capable of approving the design changes, we will do it.
2. Our review will not be limited to those proposed by Boeing, we will review everything.
3. Cut the "chain of events", "safe plane safer", "inexperienced pilots" and "working closely with FAA" crap and demonstrate us that you reached the root of the problem and understood it and you can produce a solution.
4. Get the simulators ready.

Good?
 
Falcon16
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:09 am

By exercising a right that they have not to follow the FAA, EASA is setting a dangerous precedent. What do you think the FAA is going to do when the next Airbus aircraft requiring certification comes along? I would hope follow EASA, but I am afraid they will insist on doing their own certification which will take the same length of time as it takes EASA to recertify the Max. One-uping has no place in aviation.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:56 am

Revelation wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
Revelation wrote:
EASA sure has put itself into the role of king maker, at the risk of becoming another untrusted party should their deeming prove to not be sufficient.

I think the risk is a bit lower for the EASA than for the FAA.
1) They don't suffer the same lack of separation as between Boeing and the FAA, however real or perceived that may be.
2) They lack the potential conflict of interest as the FAA with its mission of "encouraging and developing civil aeronautics, including new aviation technology."
3) The situation has changed from the initial MAX certification. At that time, Boeing's prime imperative was to get the plane to market as quickly as possible. I'm sure Boeing recognizes that there simply cannot be any more screwups.

For the above reasons, should something go wrong, I think the EASA could sufficiently direct blame towards Boeing. I don't think they'd get away without any mud on their face, but I don't think they'd be branded as "another untrusted party."

Patrick Ky's comments on EASA's level of separation:

“Yes, there was a problem in this notion of delegation of the MCAS assessment [to Boeing],” he continued, adding that the conclusion will appear in the Joint Authorities Technical Review’s report scheduled for publication next week. “I have a lot of respect for my counterparts in the FAA; they have strong ethics. But what is needed is a change of their methodology,” explained Ky.

“[A similar situation] would not happen in our system. We have a very structured way of delegating and an agreed methodology,” Ky insisted, though he admitted that with a staff of 800 his agency does not have enough personnel to dissect each software analysis OEM’s like Airbus, Safran, or Rolls-Royce produce. “That is simply impossible,” he stated. “But everything that is safety-critical has to be seen and validated by us.”

Ref: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... lationship

I think the "everything that is safety-critical has to be seen and validated by us" does support my argument that EASA has put itself into the role of king maker, at the risk of becoming another untrusted party should their deeming prove to not be sufficient

It could never happen here is almost a Trumpian level of arrogance. I hope it is just political posturing and not their real feelings. Shit can happen anywhere humans are involved.
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sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:07 am

Falcon16 wrote:
By exercising a right that they have not to follow the FAA, EASA is setting a dangerous precedent. What do you think the FAA is going to do when the next Airbus aircraft requiring certification comes along? I would hope follow EASA, but I am afraid they will insist on doing their own certification which will take the same length of time as it takes EASA to recertify the Max. One-uping has no place in aviation.

What about the right of the passengers to board a safe plane? And why does the FAA get to lead after all their mistakes? What gives the FAA the right not to follow EASA? EASA didn't screw up. The FAA did.
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Oo-oo-ooh.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:13 am

kayik wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:

Not unless they made a major, unannounced design change.

I was hoping for a source but I guess I'll take your word for it.


yes, very satisfactory :rotfl:


There are only a few hundred posts about that fact in the grounding threads. It's the whole reason the manual wheel became an issue.
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:46 am

planecane wrote:
kayik wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
I was hoping for a source but I guess I'll take your word for it.


yes, very satisfactory :rotfl:


There are only a few hundred posts about that fact in the grounding threads. It's the whole reason the manual wheel became an issue.


Found the source..the FCOM bulletin for "Uncommanded Nose Down Stabilizer Trim":

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/ques ... -and-max-9

The note under "Operating Instructions".

Must have missed this. Although I fail to see how one would consider this for a solution to disable MCAS.

And even if you did use the electric trim, once you reached your desired trim position, MCAS would turn back on as soon as you released the trim switch (+ 5 seconds).

I suppose you could move the trim switch in both UP and DOWN positions in frequent fashion until you could land (or in the case of EASA's flight test, through the high speed wind up stall) but either the switch would fail or your thumb would fall off.

( recall that the context of the discussion is about disabling MCAS for an entire flight, not during a runaway stabilizer trim situation)
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Oo-oo-ooh.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:09 am

sgrow787 wrote:
And why does the FAA get to lead after all their mistakes? What gives the FAA the right not to follow EASA? EASA didn't screw up. The FAA did.

The FAA gets to lead as long as Boeing manufactures its a/c in the USA, we know it is that simple.
Now if the USA congress decides that its citizens after decades of certifying a/c are no longer capable and must seek outside assistance I am sure they will do so, but somehow, I think they can and will find competent people.
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:19 am

par13del wrote:
The FAA gets to lead as long as Boeing manufactures its a/c in the USA, we know it is that simple.


And what percentage of Boeing 737 Max sales are to domestic customers? Less than 10%. And of that 10%, what portion is only domestic travel?

In other words, if Boeing loses market share because the world is lost Trust in them and the FAA, how can the FAA lead the world if the majority of the planes they certify have already been certified by EASA? Who will be leading then?
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Oo-oo-ooh.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:13 am

sgrow787 wrote:

And what percentage of Boeing 737 Max sales are to domestic customers? Less than 10%. And of that 10%, what portion is only domestic travel?

In other words, if Boeing loses market share because the world is lost Trust in them and the FAA, how can the FAA lead the world if the majority of the planes they certify have already been certified by EASA? Who will be leading then?

The FAA does not lead the world, the FAA is the regulator for the USA.
Every country has their own regulators, it is up to them whether they choose to conduct certification of any a/c that will operate in their airspace or whether they will accept the certification of the FAA, EASA, China, Russia, UK, etc etc etc.

As for market share, are you saying that it is in Boeing's best interest to ensure that the FAA regains its credibility and does a competent job?
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:25 am

par13del wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:

And what percentage of Boeing 737 Max sales are to domestic customers? Less than 10%. And of that 10%, what portion is only domestic travel?

In other words, if Boeing loses market share because the world is lost Trust in them and the FAA, how can the FAA lead the world if the majority of the planes they certify have already been certified by EASA? Who will be leading then?

The FAA does not lead the world, the FAA is the regulator for the USA.
Every country has their own regulators, it is up to them whether they choose to conduct certification of any a/c that will operate in their airspace or whether they will accept the certification of the FAA, EASA, China, Russia, UK, etc etc etc.


Up until the crashes they have [led the world] in the sense that their certification was automatically accepted.

As for market share, are you saying that it is in Boeing's best interest to ensure that the FAA regains its credibility and does a competent job?


Yes, minus the words "to ensure", and assuming long term interests.
Just one sensor,
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Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:29 am

sgrow787 wrote:
Up until the crashes they have [led the world] in the sense that their certification was automatically accepted.

Well Airbus has been catching up on the n/b front and those are not certified by the FAA, the FAA accepts the certification of EASA and vice versa, sometimes both sides have had additional request, we saw that with the A350, 787 and indeed the 737 before the fatal crashes.
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:39 am

par13del wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
Up until the crashes they have [led the world] in the sense that their certification was automatically accepted.

Well Airbus has been catching up on the n/b front and those are not certified by the FAA, the FAA accepts the certification of EASA and vice versa, sometimes both sides have had additional request, we saw that with the A350, 787 and indeed the 737 before the fatal crashes.


I think you said it... "has been catching up".

Speaking of catching up, its been a long day and I need to catch up on some zeees.

Happy Postings..
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:14 am

It is interesting to see the usual posters shift their attacks as the situation changes. From maintenance to pilots to training... and most recently, non-US regulatory agencies.

I applaud the EASA for doing their job, and making a list of very reasonable requirements that must be satisfied, and being public about it. Wish we had more of this down-to-earth, concrete and clear-headed safety thinking elsewhere. Exactly what I expect regulatory agencies to do. And my tax euros spent on.
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:08 am

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... rotection/

So why would a junior ex-Boeing employee be holding onto important documents about the 737MAX? He is now a FO at Southwest. Another twist in this never ending saga :(

And if you are looking for good news about Boeing... don't read this ..
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -777x-jet/
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:34 am

Regarding my last post...
Just read that he was Chief Test Pilot for the 737 Max and now he is Chief Technical Pilot at Southwest.
Trying to pin the blame on one guy seems unfair.
 
marcelh
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:08 am

flyingphil wrote:
Trying to pin the blame on one guy seems unfair.

Very true. But his actions also mean that there is probably an inconvenient truth written in those documents
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:08 am

planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:

With MCAS 2.0, trimming opposite MCAS also will disengage it IIRC.


The context of the discussion is EASAs request for a flight test w MCAS off.


I missed that. I assume they can load a test build of software without MCAS enabled.


That would require Boeing cooperation,wouldn't it.
Nothing EASA could do on their own.
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:16 am

flyingphil wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/former-boeing-official-subpoenaed-in-737-max-probe-wont-turn-over-documents-citing-fifth-amendment-protection/

So why would a junior ex-Boeing employee be holding onto important documents about the 737MAX? He is now a FO at Southwest. Another twist in this never ending saga :(


So what does this mean from a legal perspective (by "citing fifth amendment protection" )? I'm not very familiar with US Laws and their amendments and etc.


sgrow787 wrote:
Finally, any bets on the Max becoming the next hamburger chain? :rotfl:


You are about 50 years too late with that one. https://www.maxburgers.com/Home/about-max/About-Max/
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XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:21 am

flyingphil wrote:
Regarding my last post...
Just read that he was Chief Test Pilot for the 737 Max and now he is Chief Technical Pilot at Southwest.
Trying to pin the blame on one guy seems unfair.

Reported previously is Mr Forkner was Chief Technical Pilot at Boeing (desk job) and was a former FAA employee and reportedly, as liaison with FAA, was central to the communication of removal of MCAS from the FCOM and thereby avoiding any training requirement.

I would guess he's looking for protection from prosecution, as a witness/whistle-blower, and his evidence and any supporting documents are his means of getting that protection in place before he blows the lid on what he has.

Ray
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:30 am

Thanks Ray,
I know there are Whistleblower protection laws in the US. Also if a company is fined as a result of the Whistleblower the individual who blew the whistle is entitled to receive up to 10% of the fine money.

If I have given up trying to read too much into the information that is leaking out. Maybe he has a smoking gun? Maybe just covering his behind.. we shall see.. but probably means this saga will drag on. . .
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:34 am

XRAYretired wrote:
flyingphil wrote:
Regarding my last post...
Just read that he was Chief Test Pilot for the 737 Max and now he is Chief Technical Pilot at Southwest.
Trying to pin the blame on one guy seems unfair.

Reported previously is Mr Forkner was Chief Technical Pilot at Boeing (desk job) and was a former FAA employee and reportedly, as liaison with FAA, was central to the communication of removal of MCAS from the FCOM and thereby avoiding any training requirement.

I would guess he's looking for protection from prosecution, as a witness/whistle-blower, and his evidence and any supporting documents are his means of getting that protection in place before he blows the lid on what he has.

Ray

(suppose character assassination will begin in a few hours)
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:36 am

Falcon16 wrote:
By exercising a right that they have not to follow the FAA, EASA is setting a dangerous precedent. What do you think the FAA is going to do when the next Airbus aircraft requiring certification comes along? I would hope follow EASA, but I am afraid they will insist on doing their own certification which will take the same length of time as it takes EASA to recertify the Max. One-uping has no place in aviation.

I look like it's Boeing and the FAA that have setting a dangerous precedent, the EASA just try to cleanup the mess. The FAA have clearly communicate that there are not bound to a timeline and there are very very aware of the work done by the EASA. The FAA, for whatever reasons, did not communicate enough about his progress and things that still need to be cleared, so there is a lot of speculations flying around. Given the amount of Boeing documents reviewed and the rate of weekly meetings with Boeing, it's hard to tag the EASA as passive in that situation.

Is the EASA excessively careful with the 737-8/9 MAX ? It's debatable for some, but what is the basis for that comparison, since the FAA did not show enough details ? Actually neither Boeing nor the FAA complains about the process done by the EASA. And I have some idea from the Ky's comment [The FAA] "finds itself in a 'very difficult situation'” that the FAA might in fact appreciate the help of the EASA to bring a more strict relation with Boeing.
 
Olddog
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:46 am

XRAYretired wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
flyingphil wrote:
Regarding my last post...
Just read that he was Chief Test Pilot for the 737 Max and now he is Chief Technical Pilot at Southwest.
Trying to pin the blame on one guy seems unfair.

Reported previously is Mr Forkner was Chief Technical Pilot at Boeing (desk job) and was a former FAA employee and reportedly, as liaison with FAA, was central to the communication of removal of MCAS from the FCOM and thereby avoiding any training requirement.

I would guess he's looking for protection from prosecution, as a witness/whistle-blower, and his evidence and any supporting documents are his means of getting that protection in place before he blows the lid on what he has.

Ray

(suppose character assassination will begin in a few hours)


I am surprised you guess he is a whistle-blower. Using the Fifth seems to be a clear indication he was not.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins

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