RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:55 am

Revelation wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Instead they made the grave mistake of taking shortcuts and mounting the large engines they way they did.

IMO the grave mistakes were in the MCAS design and implementation, and not in the way the engines were mounted.

There's a lot of unappealing things about a bigger and heavier wingbox and gear arrangement beyond the cost and time to develope it.

There are all kinds of un-asthetic mechanisms on non-FBW airplanes to augment stability, going back to the yaw damper fitted on 707 after "dutch roll" was discovered.

IMO the main issue here is that MCAS was FUBAR'd.

And since slagging Boeing is a theme, how can we be sure that an all-new gearbox and landing gear would not end up having some pretty problematic short comings?

Boeing should be able to pull that off, but that's what we would say about MCAS, and about GE and RR's ability to provide durable blade coatings, and PW's ability to produce reliable bearings, etc.


Slagging management that imposed unrealistic demands on engineers is what is happening from what I have read. The MCAS software did what the programmers were told to make it do. The systems that should have been in place to manage the whole project were either inadequate or deliberately ignored about the risks inherent in the design. Since Boeing had promised it's customers no sim time was required then I am going with the latter option. Once again, the risks of upgrading the old machine to be capable of running the new hardware was not conveyed to customers in order to meet customer demands. You have put up a false dichotomy that Boeing either had to meet customer demands for an upgraded NG or move to the NSA with similar risks. I don't believe the risks inherent in the upgrade were adequately presented to the customers so that they made in ill informed demand to Boeing.

Boeing profits would have dropped for the introduction of the NSA but, even if the program was as badly implemented as the 787, and I don't believe it would have been if lessons had been learned, in the long run the payoff would have been substantial in a duopoly market with Airbus.
 
uta999
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:38 am

How much would a full FBW system on the MAX have cost Boeing? Probably a whole lot less than the dogs dinner they have now. If it was possible why didn't they go that route, rather than a completely new model?
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WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:53 am

uta999 wrote:
How much would a full FBW system on the MAX have cost Boeing? Probably a whole lot less than the dogs dinner they have now. If it was possible why didn't they go that route, rather than a completely new model?


737 "PT cruiser" ?
that would combine the downsides/risk of the 737 and the NSA.
.. and completely kill commonality with all -100 to -900 737 models.

no common, grandfathered certification.
-> 16g fuselage, higher requirements in a range of other performance metrics
all deleting the advantages the 737 brings via grandfathering.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:57 am

par13del wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
par13del wrote:
It may lead to questions as to why the Canadians have no fear of the a/c crashing and affecting the public whereby in the EU, getting one to transit to storage is a huge undertaking for safety, stay at certain height, flaps down etc etc..


It seems you known the Canadian transit rules. Perhaps you could explain them to us.

If you read the article, you would see that the Canadians are doing flights for check captains etc. one would think that such flying is more dangerous than a transit flight with flaps down.


So do we know what restrictions are placed on these flight? If we don't, then it's pretty pointless referring to these flights and saying "See - the MAX is perfectly safe."
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planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:15 am

WIederling wrote:
uta999 wrote:
How much would a full FBW system on the MAX have cost Boeing? Probably a whole lot less than the dogs dinner they have now. If it was possible why didn't they go that route, rather than a completely new model?


737 "PT cruiser" ?
that would combine the downsides/risk of the 737 and the NSA.
.. and completely kill commonality with all -100 to -900 737 models.

no common, grandfathered certification.
-> 16g fuselage, higher requirements in a range of other performance metrics
all deleting the advantages the 737 brings via grandfathering.


Since my understanding is that the control cables are the backup for hydraulic failure, I don't think the 737 has enough redundancy in the hydraulic system to allow removing the cables. Therefore, I don't think they could have gone full FBW without essentially making the NSA inside of a limited 737 fuselage.
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:57 am

planecane wrote:
WIederling wrote:
uta999 wrote:
How much would a full FBW system on the MAX have cost Boeing? Probably a whole lot less than the dogs dinner they have now. If it was possible why didn't they go that route, rather than a completely new model?


737 "PT cruiser" ?
that would combine the downsides/risk of the 737 and the NSA.
.. and completely kill commonality with all -100 to -900 737 models.

no common, grandfathered certification.
-> 16g fuselage, higher requirements in a range of other performance metrics
all deleting the advantages the 737 brings via grandfathering.


Since my understanding is that the control cables are the backup for hydraulic failure, I don't think the 737 has enough redundancy in the hydraulic system to allow removing the cables. Therefore, I don't think they could have gone full FBW without essentially making the NSA inside of a limited 737 fuselage.


IF it is really SO important to preserve that old 737 parts and structures in maintanance ... if the economical advantage of the NSA is really so small

if they can change the
- fuselage
- wing
- elevator
- landing gear
_ .......
under grandfather certification, they should have been able to upgrade the 737 to a full FBW jet and grandfather that

i understand why the didnt upgrade it in 2015 and go for the MAX instead
but i dont understand at all why they didnt set up a team on that after they found out that that MAX has aerodynamical attidudes
you cant fix that with a augmentation system
you need to go full FBW

and if they couldnt deside for that at that point
at least after the lion air crash i would have set up that team and would have provide all resources for that guys because fire is on the roof

because the can maybe get that MAX back ion the air now
but statistics will show that it is much lesser safe than the NG
over the years SLF will find out ....
 
Jamie514
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:42 am

par13del wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
par13del wrote:
It may lead to questions as to why the Canadians have no fear of the a/c crashing and affecting the public whereby in the EU, getting one to transit to storage is a huge undertaking for safety, stay at certain height, flaps down etc etc..



It seems you known the Canadian transit rules. Perhaps you could explain them to us.

If you read the article, you would see that the Canadians are doing flights for check captains etc. one would think that such flying is more dangerous than a transit flight with flaps down.


It seems you think theres more going on than there is.

What do you mean "the Canadians are doing flights for check captains etc."

I read the article; theres no need to be so imprecise.
Please be more careful.

Flights were only to maintain required proficiency for check captains. No need for a word like etcetera that only points to unmentioned additional reasons or crew types.

And "The Canadians" actually means one specific airline was allowed to do this, because they have no other 737 in their fleet.

And except for the first departure and last arrival involving YUL during which we can safely assume flaps were used, the flights were between two small, remote northern cities.

These flights were not some soft-peddled vote of confidence by Transpost Canada that the MAX is ready for prime time. Efforts to re-frame as such are fake news.

Facts matter.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:55 am

Jamie514 wrote:
Flights were only to maintain required proficiency for check captains. No need for a word like etcetera that only points to unmentioned additional reasons or crew types.

Well I will put the question to you, how much proficiency can you retain flying an a/c in a fashion it will not be used in commercial service, or do they only need to be proficient in areas of flight where the flaps are deployed like take off and landing?
 
Jamie514
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:07 pm

par13del wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
Flights were only to maintain required proficiency for check captains. No need for a word like etcetera that only points to unmentioned additional reasons or crew types.

Well I will put the question to you, how much proficiency can you retain flying an a/c in a fashion it will not be used in commercial service, or do they only need to be proficient in areas of flight where the flaps are deployed like take off and landing?


Thats great. Ignore how off base you are and lob even more misleading statements.

Nobody has characterized the fashion in which these flights were operated as inconsistent with commercial operating procedures. Nobody has so far provided that insight and I can't either.
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:10 pm

par13del wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
Flights were only to maintain required proficiency for check captains. No need for a word like etcetera that only points to unmentioned additional reasons or crew types.

Well I will put the question to you, how much proficiency can you retain flying an a/c in a fashion it will not be used in commercial service, or do they only need to be proficient in areas of flight where the flaps are deployed like take off and landing?


i think one can be shure that this is all within rules and reglementations

and on the other side you can be sure that - like you pointed out - check flights are pretty useless in case of the MAX at this stage
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:42 pm

The MAX is grounded because it is unsafe, full stop. One airline worldwide is allowing flights for its crew proficiency, personally, I think it sets a bad precedent. Is the airline asking these employee's to sign additional waivers, offering double indemnity over and above what they already have in case something happens,is their participation voluntary?
How are other operators of the MAX keeping their check Captains proficient, please don't say they can fly NG's that just means that an alternative to these flights was available, attempt to lease one or send their crew to a friendly airline who has NG's for a fee.
In my mind it just opens a can of worms that we do not have to open, so far we have not heard of any other airline who has MAX in their fleet doing so, or maybe they are and it is just not reported? If that is the case fine, but I still say it is a bad idea.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:48 pm

Jamie514 wrote:
Nobody has characterized the fashion in which these flights were operated as inconsistent with commercial operating procedures. Nobody has so far provided that insight and I can't either.

Hence my questions, but we do know about MCAS, its failure mode, and how it can be permanently disabled by switches or by flying with flaps deployed.
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:55 pm

par13del wrote:
...
How are other operators of the MAX keeping their check Captains proficient, please don't say they can fly NG's ..


AFAIK:
the MAX does not has its own type rating
so any checkflight could be done on a NG, too
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:52 pm

par13del wrote:
...How are other operators of the MAX keeping their check Captains proficient, please don't say they can fly NG's ..


But they can!

asdf wrote:
AFAIK:
the MAX does not has its own type rating
so any checkflight could be done on a NG, too


Which is exactly why we are where we are today! Boeing wanted MAX = NG as far as airlines and pilots were concerned.
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:54 pm

So as I posted..if we say they could use NG's an alternative existed.
 
Andy33
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:37 pm

But not at Air Canada, which is the airline being discussed, because they have never had NGs.
 
Jamie514
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:39 pm

par13del wrote:
So as I posted..if we say they could use NG's an alternative existed.


You asked people to read the article.

Guess you didn't read it yourself, because it did repeat the fairly well known fact AC has no NG.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:41 pm

Andy33 wrote:
But not at Air Canada, which is the airline being discussed, because they have never had NGs.

I wonder if dry-lease of an NG and using it on revenue flights would be cheaper. Toms of paperwork, of course...
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:56 pm

kalvado wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
But not at Air Canada, which is the airline being discussed, because they have never had NGs.

I wonder if dry-lease of an NG and using it on revenue flights would be cheaper. Toms of paperwork, of course...


IIRC when the MAX deal was announced, AC was talking about immediate withdrawal of the E-jets from use and leasing some NG-s as interim lift. However, that never happened. AC still has 18 active E-190's and all leased aircraft are Airbus.
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
bob75013
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:03 pm

kalvado wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
But not at Air Canada, which is the airline being discussed, because they have never had NGs.

I wonder if dry-lease of an NG and using it on revenue flights would be cheaper. Toms of paperwork, of course...


You want the airline to lease an aircraft it never intends to use? Really?

Besides there aren't many out there. Most were snapped up shortly after the MAXs were grounded.

I could only find two, and they were for sale and not lease.

https://www.controller.com/listings/air ... -group/737
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:31 pm

par13del wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
Flights were only to maintain required proficiency for check captains. No need for a word like etcetera that only points to unmentioned additional reasons or crew types.

Well I will put the question to you, how much proficiency can you retain flying an a/c in a fashion it will not be used in commercial service, or do they only need to be proficient in areas of flight where the flaps are deployed like take off and landing?


I would think a lot. Takeoff and landing would be the key activities to remain proficient on. They aren't doing emergency situation training. I'm not a pilot and my entire flying "experience" is a few hours in a 737NG full motion simulator. I can guarantee you that if somebody let me into a 737 cockpit at cruise altitude that I could fly around for hours.
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:59 pm

Andy33 wrote:
But not at Air Canada, which is the airline being discussed, because they have never had NGs.


are they not into one of the cooperation groups?
dont they share flightnumbers with another operator?
couldnt they find a possibility to get those few guys and gals their hours in a NG that way?

its not our business
they need to know by themself better

but on the first short glimps it seems pretty tremendous to fly otherwise groundet MAX planes around for hours to fulfill rating minimum hours and burn fuel for $$$$$$,- and let the maintanance ticker count down for nothing

as an employer i would probably file an applicate for a postponement for that hours of my employees ...
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:14 pm

Seems we have a lot more insight into what the Boeing Board Committee report will recommend, via NYT ( https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/15/busi ... 7-max.html ) and others.

Seems they want all engineers to report to the Chief Engineer primarily, with secondary reporting via individual programs such as 737, 747, 767, 777, 787, etc.

This will in theory remove (some?) program-specific pressure from being directly applied.

Seems they want a new company-wide safety group to enhance information sharing between safety engineers and to provide independence.

It also will report to corporate executives rather than program level executives.

Seems they want an examination of cockpit design to "ensure that new Boeing planes are accessible for the next generation of pilots, including those with less training".

Note this is for "new Boeing planes" so it seems current ones get a pass, which perhaps may be controversial.

Seems much of this will happen after the ungrounding, if ever.
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airnorth
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:29 pm

par13del wrote:
So as I posted..if we say they could use NG's an alternative existed.


I understand what you are asking even though some others do not, which is fine, I have asked similar questions with no response. By looking at the flight profile, and as far as I can see, there is no way they were flying with flaps extended for the whole flight(s). Some posters wondered why they did not rent or borrow someone else's NG's, good question, but perhaps, that goes against an internal AC policy? Speculation on my part.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:31 pm

Revelation wrote:
Seems we have a lot more insight into what the Boeing Board Committee report will recommend, via NYT ( https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/15/busi ... 7-max.html ) and others.

Seems they want all engineers to report to the Chief Engineer primarily, with secondary reporting via individual programs such as 737, 747, 767, 777, 787, etc.

This will in theory remove (some?) program-specific pressure from being directly applied.

Seems they want a new company-wide safety group to enhance information sharing between safety engineers and to provide independence.

It also will report to corporate executives rather than program level executives.

Seems they want an examination of cockpit design to "ensure that new Boeing planes are accessible for the next generation of pilots, including those with less training".

Note this is for "new Boeing planes" so it seems current ones get a pass, which perhaps may be controversial.

Seems much of this will happen after the ungrounding, if ever.
:checkmark: :thumbsup:
Excellent move for Boeing, and for the commercial aircraft industry safety.
The Boeing's internals changes are a kind of indirect confirmation that something was wrong.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:39 pm

Revelation wrote:
Seems we have a lot more insight into what the Boeing Board Committee report will recommend, via NYT ( https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/15/busi ... 7-max.html ) and others.

Seems they want all engineers to report to the Chief Engineer primarily, with secondary reporting via individual programs such as 737, 747, 767, 777, 787, etc.

This will in theory remove (some?) program-specific pressure from being directly applied.

Seems they want a new company-wide safety group to enhance information sharing between safety engineers and to provide independence.

It also will report to corporate executives rather than program level executives.

Seems they want an examination of cockpit design to "ensure that new Boeing planes are accessible for the next generation of pilots, including those with less training".

Note this is for "new Boeing planes" so it seems current ones get a pass, which perhaps may be controversial.

Seems much of this will happen after the ungrounding, if ever.


Most of this seems like corporate gobbledy-gook. The only thing I see that could make a positive difference is having an internal, independent safety group. If they are given authority to oversee the safety aspects of all programs and given the power to force changes when necessary regardless of budgetary or schedule concerns, they could prevent things like MCAS 1.0.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:42 pm

Revelation wrote:
Seems we have a lot more insight into what the Boeing Board Committee report will recommend, via NYT ( https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/15/busi ... 7-max.html ) and others.

Seems they want all engineers to report to the Chief Engineer primarily, with secondary reporting via individual programs such as 737, 747, 767, 777, 787, etc.

This will in theory remove (some?) program-specific pressure from being directly applied.

Seems they want a new company-wide safety group to enhance information sharing between safety engineers and to provide independence.

It also will report to corporate executives rather than program level executives.

Seems they want an examination of cockpit design to "ensure that new Boeing planes are accessible for the next generation of pilots, including those with less training".

Note this is for "new Boeing planes" so it seems current ones get a pass, which perhaps may be controversial.

Seems much of this will happen after the ungrounding, if ever.
other key take aways from the article in NYT:

Frustration with Boeing is mounting on Capitol Hill. Representative Peter DeFazio, a Democrat from Oregon, said in an interview that he invited Boeing to testify at a House hearing, but the company declined.

“Next time, it won’t just be an invitation, if necessary,” Mr. DeFazio said.

Congressional investigators are combing through tens of thousands of internal Boeing documents, looking for potential flaws in the Max’s development and certification.
“We’ve got massive amounts of documents from Boeing,” Mr. DeFazio said. “But they have otherwise been not particularly cooperative.”

The F.A.A. and international regulators are similarly frustrated with Boeing, a sentiment that became apparent at a meeting last month.

In August, Boeing met with officials from the F.A.A. and other global aviation agencies to brief them on its efforts to complete fixes on the Max. Regulators asked detailed questions about adjustments to the Max’s flight control computers, which the Boeing representatives there were not prepared to answer.



Boeing seems to be hiding quite a lot....


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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
Seems we have a lot more insight into what the Boeing Board Committee report will recommend, via NYT ( https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/15/busi ... 7-max.html ) and others.

Seems they want all engineers to report to the Chief Engineer primarily, with secondary reporting via individual programs such as 737, 747, 767, 777, 787, etc.

This will in theory remove (some?) program-specific pressure from being directly applied.

Seems they want a new company-wide safety group to enhance information sharing between safety engineers and to provide independence.

It also will report to corporate executives rather than program level executives.

Seems they want an examination of cockpit design to "ensure that new Boeing planes are accessible for the next generation of pilots, including those with less training".

Note this is for "new Boeing planes" so it seems current ones get a pass, which perhaps may be controversial.

Seems much of this will happen after the ungrounding, if ever.


I had read this as applying/assuming to any updates, including various features of MAX and 777 8 and 9. This would/will create a chain of responsibility throughout engineering. It seems to say that there was not any such chain. Astuteman had a lengthy post on this.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:54 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
This would/will create a chain of responsibility throughout engineering. It seems to say that there was not any such chain. Astuteman had a lengthy post on this.

Saying you want a more direct, more independent chain in the future is not the same as saying you have none right now.

TFA said:

The committee examined the process by which Boeing employees conduct certification work on behalf of the Federal Aviation Administration, known as Organization Designation Authorization, as well as an internal company framework known as the Boeing Safety Management System.

DM's comments also said they have looked at their existing process and concluded MAX followed that process.

It doesn't mean it was adequate to the task, but it also doesn't mean there was none.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:45 pm

They just had the new FAA Administrator Scott Dickson on CNBC talking about the MAX.

He is heading to Seattle this week to fly the fix in the SIM. In his own words "I will not let this plane return to service until it is the safest plane out there and I feel safe to put my own family on it"

His Bio from the FAA website.

Dickson recently retired from service as the senior vice president of Flight Operations for Delta Air Lines.

In this role, he was responsible for the safety and operational performance of Delta's global flight operations, as well as pilot training, crew resources, crew scheduling, and regulatory compliance. He also flew in line operations as an A320 captain, and previously flew the B727, B737, B757, and B767 during his career. Captain Dickson is a strong advocate for commercial aviation safety and improvements to our National Airspace System, having served as chairman of several industry stakeholder groups and Federal advisory committees.

A former United States Air Force Officer and F-15 fighter pilot, Dickson is a Distinguished Graduate of the Class of 1979 at the United States Air Force Academy, as well as a graduate of the Georgia State University College of Law, magna cum laude.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/16/faa-chi ... lator.html
 
Chemist
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:55 pm

morrisond wrote:
They just had the new FAA Administrator Scott Dickson on CNBC talking about the MAX.

He is heading to Seattle this week to fly the fix in the SIM. In his own words "I will not let this plane return to service until it is the safest plane out there and I feel safe to put my own family on it"

His Bio from the FAA website.

Dickson recently retired from service as the senior vice president of Flight Operations for Delta Air Lines.

In this role, he was responsible for the safety and operational performance of Delta's global flight operations, as well as pilot training, crew resources, crew scheduling, and regulatory compliance. He also flew in line operations as an A320 captain, and previously flew the B727, B737, B757, and B767 during his career. Captain Dickson is a strong advocate for commercial aviation safety and improvements to our National Airspace System, having served as chairman of several industry stakeholder groups and Federal advisory committees.

A former United States Air Force Officer and F-15 fighter pilot, Dickson is a Distinguished Graduate of the Class of 1979 at the United States Air Force Academy, as well as a graduate of the Georgia State University College of Law, magna cum laude.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/16/faa-chi ... lator.html


He sounds much more qualified than many key positions in government these days.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:28 pm

Chemist wrote:
morrisond wrote:
They just had the new FAA Administrator Scott Dickson on CNBC talking about the MAX.

He is heading to Seattle this week to fly the fix in the SIM. In his own words "I will not let this plane return to service until it is the safest plane out there and I feel safe to put my own family on it"

His Bio from the FAA website.

Dickson recently retired from service as the senior vice president of Flight Operations for Delta Air Lines.

In this role, he was responsible for the safety and operational performance of Delta's global flight operations, as well as pilot training, crew resources, crew scheduling, and regulatory compliance. He also flew in line operations as an A320 captain, and previously flew the B727, B737, B757, and B767 during his career. Captain Dickson is a strong advocate for commercial aviation safety and improvements to our National Airspace System, having served as chairman of several industry stakeholder groups and Federal advisory committees.

A former United States Air Force Officer and F-15 fighter pilot, Dickson is a Distinguished Graduate of the Class of 1979 at the United States Air Force Academy, as well as a graduate of the Georgia State University College of Law, magna cum laude.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/16/faa-chi ... lator.html


He sounds much more qualified than many key positions in government these days.


He sure does. The fact that he is a pilot that was type rated on the 737 also helps a lot in this situation. Nobody can give him a "dog and pony show."
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:55 pm

planecane wrote:
Most of this seems like corporate gobbledy-gook. The only thing I see that could make a positive difference is having an internal, independent safety group. If they are given authority to oversee the safety aspects of all programs and given the power to force changes when necessary regardless of budgetary or schedule concerns, they could prevent things like MCAS 1.0.

The report describes a safety group with a clear reporting path to corporate level executives and the board level safety committee independent of the product line management silos with all safety related functions and personnel contained by it, which should give it veto power, no?
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:04 pm

planecane wrote:
Chemist wrote:
morrisond wrote:
They just had the new FAA Administrator Scott Dickson on CNBC talking about the MAX.

He is heading to Seattle this week to fly the fix in the SIM. In his own words "I will not let this plane return to service until it is the safest plane out there and I feel safe to put my own family on it"

His Bio from the FAA website.

Dickson recently retired from service as the senior vice president of Flight Operations for Delta Air Lines.

In this role, he was responsible for the safety and operational performance of Delta's global flight operations, as well as pilot training, crew resources, crew scheduling, and regulatory compliance. He also flew in line operations as an A320 captain, and previously flew the B727, B737, B757, and B767 during his career. Captain Dickson is a strong advocate for commercial aviation safety and improvements to our National Airspace System, having served as chairman of several industry stakeholder groups and Federal advisory committees.

A former United States Air Force Officer and F-15 fighter pilot, Dickson is a Distinguished Graduate of the Class of 1979 at the United States Air Force Academy, as well as a graduate of the Georgia State University College of Law, magna cum laude.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/16/faa-chi ... lator.html


He sounds much more qualified than many key positions in government these days.


He sure does. The fact that he is a pilot that was type rated on the 737 also helps a lot in this situation. Nobody can give him a "dog and pony show."


Boeing has been known to have a couple, well maybe more than a couple, highly skilled pilots of their own who might be a little familiar with the 737...
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:17 pm

Revelation, prior it seems as though program senior engineers reported to program managers. The Senior Engineer for Boeing was not out of the loop, but was in the loop via program managers. The difference sounds subtle, but I think it is important. Just as Boeing FAA appointed compliance people did not report directly back to the FAA but only through program managers.
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:49 pm

Jamie514 wrote:
par13del wrote:
So as I posted..if we say they could use NG's an alternative existed.


You asked people to read the article.

Guess you didn't read it yourself, because it did repeat the fairly well known fact AC has no NG.

Well if you read my post you would see that I said if the NG could be used, they could lease or pay a fee at another airline, fact is that they had / have an alternative to using the MAX.
As I said, personally I think is is a bad idea when alternatives are available.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:00 pm

planecane wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Seems we have a lot more insight into what the Boeing Board Committee report will recommend, via NYT ( https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/15/busi ... 7-max.html ) and others.

Seems they want all engineers to report to the Chief Engineer primarily, with secondary reporting via individual programs such as 737, 747, 767, 777, 787, etc.

This will in theory remove (some?) program-specific pressure from being directly applied.

Seems they want a new company-wide safety group to enhance information sharing between safety engineers and to provide independence.

It also will report to corporate executives rather than program level executives.

Seems they want an examination of cockpit design to "ensure that new Boeing planes are accessible for the next generation of pilots, including those with less training".

Note this is for "new Boeing planes" so it seems current ones get a pass, which perhaps may be controversial.

Seems much of this will happen after the ungrounding, if ever.


Most of this seems like corporate gobbledy-gook. The only thing I see that could make a positive difference is having an internal, independent safety group. If they are given authority to oversee the safety aspects of all programs and given the power to force changes when necessary regardless of budgetary or schedule concerns, they could prevent things like MCAS 1.0.

All your options are fine except "regardless of budgetary or schedule concerns, I am hoping they get schedule but as that has budgetary concerns, I still expect higher up reviews. However, in theory, if it gives a second set of eyes, thats a good thing, especially if they will not be under the control of the FAA or the Boeing project manager.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:32 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
planecane wrote:
Chemist wrote:

He sounds much more qualified than many key positions in government these days.


He sure does. The fact that he is a pilot that was type rated on the 737 also helps a lot in this situation. Nobody can give him a "dog and pony show."


Boeing has been known to have a couple, well maybe more than a couple, highly skilled pilots of their own who might be a little familiar with the 737...


I assume they have. What's you're point?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:43 pm

Let's also remember that the current head honcho was an engineer....yes he was not in charge when the MAX was created...but just saying, the head is an engineer....
 
planewasted
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:54 pm

morrisond wrote:
They just had the new FAA Administrator Scott Dickson on CNBC talking about the MAX.

He is heading to Seattle this week to fly the fix in the SIM. In his own words "I will not let this plane return to service until it is the safest plane out there and I feel safe to put my own family on it"

His Bio from the FAA website.

Dickson recently retired from service as the senior vice president of Flight Operations for Delta Air Lines.

In this role, he was responsible for the safety and operational performance of Delta's global flight operations, as well as pilot training, crew resources, crew scheduling, and regulatory compliance. He also flew in line operations as an A320 captain, and previously flew the B727, B737, B757, and B767 during his career. Captain Dickson is a strong advocate for commercial aviation safety and improvements to our National Airspace System, having served as chairman of several industry stakeholder groups and Federal advisory committees.

A former United States Air Force Officer and F-15 fighter pilot, Dickson is a Distinguished Graduate of the Class of 1979 at the United States Air Force Academy, as well as a graduate of the Georgia State University College of Law, magna cum laude.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/16/faa-chi ... lator.html


Sorry but this is just too cheesy.
Common sense and compliance with the well established certification requirements for commercial airliners is enough. We do not need a Hollywood super hero coming to prove that the MAX is safe
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:00 pm

planewasted wrote:
morrisond wrote:
They just had the new FAA Administrator Scott Dickson on CNBC talking about the MAX.

He is heading to Seattle this week to fly the fix in the SIM. In his own words "I will not let this plane return to service until it is the safest plane out there and I feel safe to put my own family on it"

His Bio from the FAA website.

Dickson recently retired from service as the senior vice president of Flight Operations for Delta Air Lines.

In this role, he was responsible for the safety and operational performance of Delta's global flight operations, as well as pilot training, crew resources, crew scheduling, and regulatory compliance. He also flew in line operations as an A320 captain, and previously flew the B727, B737, B757, and B767 during his career. Captain Dickson is a strong advocate for commercial aviation safety and improvements to our National Airspace System, having served as chairman of several industry stakeholder groups and Federal advisory committees.

A former United States Air Force Officer and F-15 fighter pilot, Dickson is a Distinguished Graduate of the Class of 1979 at the United States Air Force Academy, as well as a graduate of the Georgia State University College of Law, magna cum laude.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/16/faa-chi ... lator.html


Sorry but this is just too cheesy.
Common sense and compliance with the well established certification requirements for commercial airliners is enough. We do not need a Hollywood super hero coming to prove that the MAX is safe


I take it you didn't look at his current picture.
 
SonomaFlyer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:46 pm

planewasted wrote:
Sorry but this is just too cheesy.
Common sense and compliance with the well established certification requirements for commercial airliners is enough. We do not need a Hollywood super hero coming to prove that the MAX is safe


Neither the FAA nor Boeing really followed the "well established certification requirements for commercial airliners," when it came to the MAX. If they did, its unlikely we'd have hundreds dead and the aircraft grounded.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:29 am

International Panel Set to Criticize FAA’s Approval Process for Boeing 737 MAX Jets

https://www.wsj.com/articles/internatio ... _lead_pos3

The JATR panel does not seem to be impressed by the certification process of the FAA and Boeing.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:02 am

SonomaFlyer wrote:
Neither the FAA nor Boeing really followed the "well established certification requirements for commercial airliners," when it came to the MAX. If they did, its unlikely we'd have hundreds dead and the aircraft grounded.


That implies the "well established certification requirements" are infallible. They are not, along with airline requirements, pilot requirements, etc.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:10 am

mjoelnir wrote:
International Panel Set to Criticize FAA’s Approval Process for Boeing 737 MAX Jets

https://www.wsj.com/articles/internatio ... _lead_pos3

The JATR panel does not seem to be impressed by the certification process of the FAA and Boeing.

The world knows that Boeing and the FAA screwed up the MAX certification, this panel was formed to point the way forward, if they need to start the process by officially saying folks screwed up, that's fine, I am more interested in their view of the way forward.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:14 am

planewasted wrote:
morrisond wrote:
They just had the new FAA Administrator Scott Dickson on CNBC talking about the MAX.

He is heading to Seattle this week to fly the fix in the SIM. In his own words "I will not let this plane return to service until it is the safest plane out there and I feel safe to put my own family on it"

His Bio from the FAA website.

Dickson recently retired from service as the senior vice president of Flight Operations for Delta Air Lines.

In this role, he was responsible for the safety and operational performance of Delta's global flight operations, as well as pilot training, crew resources, crew scheduling, and regulatory compliance. He also flew in line operations as an A320 captain, and previously flew the B727, B737, B757, and B767 during his career. Captain Dickson is a strong advocate for commercial aviation safety and improvements to our National Airspace System, having served as chairman of several industry stakeholder groups and Federal advisory committees.

A former United States Air Force Officer and F-15 fighter pilot, Dickson is a Distinguished Graduate of the Class of 1979 at the United States Air Force Academy, as well as a graduate of the Georgia State University College of Law, magna cum laude.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/16/faa-chi ... lator.html


Sorry but this is just too cheesy.
Common sense and compliance with the well established certification requirements for commercial airliners is enough. We do not need a Hollywood super hero coming to prove that the MAX is safe


Agreed. Well said.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:56 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
planewasted wrote:
morrisond wrote:
They just had the new FAA Administrator Scott Dickson on CNBC talking about the MAX.

He is heading to Seattle this week to fly the fix in the SIM. In his own words "I will not let this plane return to service until it is the safest plane out there and I feel safe to put my own family on it"

His Bio from the FAA website.

Dickson recently retired from service as the senior vice president of Flight Operations for Delta Air Lines.

In this role, he was responsible for the safety and operational performance of Delta's global flight operations, as well as pilot training, crew resources, crew scheduling, and regulatory compliance. He also flew in line operations as an A320 captain, and previously flew the B727, B737, B757, and B767 during his career. Captain Dickson is a strong advocate for commercial aviation safety and improvements to our National Airspace System, having served as chairman of several industry stakeholder groups and Federal advisory committees.

A former United States Air Force Officer and F-15 fighter pilot, Dickson is a Distinguished Graduate of the Class of 1979 at the United States Air Force Academy, as well as a graduate of the Georgia State University College of Law, magna cum laude.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/16/faa-chi ... lator.html


Sorry but this is just too cheesy.
Common sense and compliance with the well established certification requirements for commercial airliners is enough. We do not need a Hollywood super hero coming to prove that the MAX is safe


Agreed. Well said.

Would you prefer your bureaucrats be less qualified, or take a less direct interest in important issues? Perhaps it’s just envy that your résumés don’t look like his.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:58 am

morrisond wrote:
planewasted wrote:
morrisond wrote:
They just had the new FAA Administrator Scott Dickson on CNBC talking about the MAX.

He is heading to Seattle this week to fly the fix in the SIM. In his own words "I will not let this plane return to service until it is the safest plane out there and I feel safe to put my own family on it"

His Bio from the FAA website.

Dickson recently retired from service as the senior vice president of Flight Operations for Delta Air Lines.

In this role, he was responsible for the safety and operational performance of Delta's global flight operations, as well as pilot training, crew resources, crew scheduling, and regulatory compliance. He also flew in line operations as an A320 captain, and previously flew the B727, B737, B757, and B767 during his career. Captain Dickson is a strong advocate for commercial aviation safety and improvements to our National Airspace System, having served as chairman of several industry stakeholder groups and Federal advisory committees.

A former United States Air Force Officer and F-15 fighter pilot, Dickson is a Distinguished Graduate of the Class of 1979 at the United States Air Force Academy, as well as a graduate of the Georgia State University College of Law, magna cum laude.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/16/faa-chi ... lator.html


Sorry but this is just too cheesy.
Common sense and compliance with the well established certification requirements for commercial airliners is enough. We do not need a Hollywood super hero coming to prove that the MAX is safe


I take it you didn't look at his current picture.

:lol: Funniest thing I’ve read today.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:30 am

aerolimani wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
planewasted wrote:

Sorry but this is just too cheesy.
Common sense and compliance with the well established certification requirements for commercial airliners is enough. We do not need a Hollywood super hero coming to prove that the MAX is safe


Agreed. Well said.

Would you prefer your bureaucrats be less qualified, or take a less direct interest in important issues? Perhaps it’s just envy that your résumés don’t look like his.


I'd rather they stick to the facts. No need for all the extra expressions. To say that the Max would have to be the safest plane in the sky to get recertification would imply that the other aircraft are somehow less safe.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:51 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Agreed. Well said.

Would you prefer your bureaucrats be less qualified, or take a less direct interest in important issues? Perhaps it’s just envy that your résumés don’t look like his.


I'd rather they stick to the facts. No need for all the extra expressions. To say that the Max would have to be the safest plane in the sky to get recertification would imply that the other aircraft are somehow less safe.

His job is more than just technical, addressing engineers and pilots. He must also engage in public relations. It’s pretty classic US-style PR to make statements in a hyperbolic manner. I think the theory is that it demonstrates confidence. I can’t say that the style appeals to me either, but I accept it as the norm.

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