WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:50 pm

Revelation wrote:
WIederling wrote:
The B Fan argument is comparable to:
Run over grandma on a pedestrian crossing and absolve the driver because "grandma didn't jump fast enough"
in day to day life a limber elder citizens would be desirable especially when looking in the mirror. ... :-)

Baloney, no one absolves Boeing.

Keep hearing what you want to hear, it's easier to get through your day that way.

May Day, May Day, .cerebral haemorrhage.

The constant stream of "Third world Airlines, rah rah, third world training rah rah,
fling a good plane into the ground , fully obvious that this was runaway trim rah, rah, ... ,"
pushed into this topic is exactly that: a push for absolving Boeing of any wrong doing.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:04 pm

Revelation wrote:
If nothing else, we will get an update from DM on Oct 31 as it appears likely he will be testifying before Congress on that date

We will get something before that since September was their date for submitting fixes to the FAA.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:08 pm

WIederling wrote:
Revelation wrote:
WIederling wrote:
The B Fan argument is comparable to:
Run over grandma on a pedestrian crossing and absolve the driver because "grandma didn't jump fast enough"
in day to day life a limber elder citizens would be desirable especially when looking in the mirror. ... :-)

Baloney, no one absolves Boeing.

Keep hearing what you want to hear, it's easier to get through your day that way.

May Day, May Day, .cerebral haemorrhage.

The constant stream of "Third world Airlines, rah rah, third world training rah rah,
fling a good plane into the ground , fully obvious that this was runaway trim rah, rah, ... ,"
pushed into this topic is exactly that: a push for absolving Boeing of any wrong doing.

Can anyone come up with a situation similar to MCAS - multiple simultaneous failures, which skygods successfully handled? Hindsight is 20/20, but what about battle proven skills?
The closest I can think of is QF32, where the crew explicitly appreciated extra hands on deck - a total of 5 pilots! - and took time (and had time!) to stabilize situation as their aircraft remained under control.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:14 pm

kalvado wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Baloney, no one absolves Boeing.

Keep hearing what you want to hear, it's easier to get through your day that way.

May Day, May Day, .cerebral haemorrhage.

The constant stream of "Third world Airlines, rah rah, third world training rah rah,
fling a good plane into the ground , fully obvious that this was runaway trim rah, rah, ... ,"
pushed into this topic is exactly that: a push for absolving Boeing of any wrong doing.

Can anyone come up with a situation similar to MCAS - multiple simultaneous failures, which skygods successfully handled? Hindsight is 20/20, but what about battle proven skills?
The closest I can think of is QF32, where the crew explicitly appreciated extra hands on deck - a total of 5 pilots! - and took time (and had time!) to stabilize situation as their aircraft remained under control.


I would also be curious (although I assume it would have been reported by now) if there were any other instances of MCAS runaway outside of the two crashed flights and Lion Air 043.

I do think that one valid point made by the New York Times article is that the FO side did not have any issues other than, obviously, MCAS. All other failures could have been mitigated by transferring control to the FO. Is this SOP in a 737?
 
uta999
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:19 pm

Before both of the MAX Air Accident reports are published, Boeing should make a statement admitting full and unequivocal responsibility for both incidents. They should not even mention the pilots, who are unable to defend themselves from any blame.

Design, test and build a good aeroplane; document everything, certify everything honestly, and it won't crash itself. An American pilot would have crashed it too eventually. The 737 MAX is the modern DC-10 by a magnitude of 10, in terms of errors made by Boeing.
Your computer just got better
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:31 pm

kalvado wrote:
Can anyone come up with a situation similar to MCAS - multiple simultaneous failures, which skygods successfully handled?

JT did it, on the same plane that crashed on its next flight.

They even continued to destination!

Yes, they had a third pilot in the cockpit, but the key was having one pilot with the right skills, not having two or more lacking the right skills.

WIederling wrote:
The constant stream of "Third world Airlines, rah rah, third world training rah rah,
fling a good plane into the ground , fully obvious that this was runaway trim rah, rah, ... ,"
pushed into this topic is exactly that: a push for absolving Boeing of any wrong doing.

This continuous stream of exaggerated distortions of what is being said is absurd.

Blaming three different entities does not absolve any of those three entities.

What you posted is a great example of intellectual dishonesty.
Last edited by Revelation on Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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yuomi
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:55 pm

kalvado wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Baloney, no one absolves Boeing.

Keep hearing what you want to hear, it's easier to get through your day that way.

May Day, May Day, .cerebral haemorrhage.

The constant stream of "Third world Airlines, rah rah, third world training rah rah,
fling a good plane into the ground , fully obvious that this was runaway trim rah, rah, ... ,"
pushed into this topic is exactly that: a push for absolving Boeing of any wrong doing.

Can anyone come up with a situation similar to MCAS - multiple simultaneous failures, which skygods successfully handled? Hindsight is 20/20, but what about battle proven skills?
The closest I can think of is QF32, where the crew explicitly appreciated extra hands on deck - a total of 5 pilots! - and took time (and had time!) to stabilize situation as their aircraft remained under control.


Air Astana Flight 1388?
 
oschkosch
Posts: 332
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Yes, thx a lot! Like I said earlier: Boeing is using the NYT for PR purposes only. The NYT article is a must read, but only because it shows to what lengths Boeing is prepared to go in order to bend public perception of the max.

Now NYT is part of the pro-Boeing cabal?




Sorry mate, that is not what I said, so please don't put words in my mouth!
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:25 pm

yuomi wrote:
kalvado wrote:
WIederling wrote:
May Day, May Day, .cerebral haemorrhage.

The constant stream of "Third world Airlines, rah rah, third world training rah rah,
fling a good plane into the ground , fully obvious that this was runaway trim rah, rah, ... ,"
pushed into this topic is exactly that: a push for absolving Boeing of any wrong doing.

Can anyone come up with a situation similar to MCAS - multiple simultaneous failures, which skygods successfully handled? Hindsight is 20/20, but what about battle proven skills?
The closest I can think of is QF32, where the crew explicitly appreciated extra hands on deck - a total of 5 pilots! - and took time (and had time!) to stabilize situation as their aircraft remained under control.


Air Astana Flight 1388?


Lufthansa 1829?

The Eva Air A330 incident of 2012?
 
AABusDrvr
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:36 pm

uta999 wrote:
Before both of the MAX Air Accident reports are published, Boeing should make a statement admitting full and unequivocal responsibility for both incidents. They should not even mention the pilots, who are unable to defend themselves from any blame.

Design, test and build a good aeroplane; document everything, certify everything honestly, and it won't crash itself. An American pilot would have crashed it too eventually. The 737 MAX is the modern DC-10 by a magnitude of 10, in terms of errors made by Boeing.



That sounds like a bang up plan. Admit total responsibility for something you are not totally responsible for, before the final reports are published. No sane person, let alone any responsible corporate manager would ever consider that.

By virtue of always being the first two people to the scene of every plane crash, the pilots will almost always be unable to defend themselves. It's the nature of the beast, and the fact they are no longer here, shouldn't stop the evaluation of their performance, good or bad.

I'm not blaming these two crews specifically, there is a much larger problem with the whole system, driven solely by costs. The B.S. "pilot shortage" is only because the airlines have made the job rather unattractive any more. So instead of increased pay and better work rules, let's just lower the requirements (MPL, I'm looking right at you).

IMHO, the lowered requirements for becoming an airline pilot, and policy like this are the heart of the problem. This is from page 183 of the ET 409 accident report, and is from the Ethiopian Airlines Enterprise Flight Operations Policy Manual. I'll bet this, or a statement very much like it is still in their manual, and many other like it across the globe.

Image

When we take young, very low experience pilots, put them in an airliner flight deck, and they spend their careers being systems managers, instead of pilots, we get people who are good at rote tasks, but who struggle when things don't go how they are expected to.

I've already stated in the earlier thread that as a pilot type rated in the 737, and several other transport category jets, I can't understand why any pilot would attempt to engage the autopilot, more than once, with an active stick shaker, and other system abnormalities. My money says the above policy is the answer. When the automation is all you know, you head for your safety blanket, even if it's the totally wrong thing to do.

Hate big bad Boeing all you want, but there are still human factors issues involved in both accidents.
 
n562wn
Posts: 93
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:42 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
uta999 wrote:
Before both of the MAX Air Accident reports are published, Boeing should make a statement admitting full and unequivocal responsibility for both incidents. They should not even mention the pilots, who are unable to defend themselves from any blame.

Design, test and build a good aeroplane; document everything, certify everything honestly, and it won't crash itself. An American pilot would have crashed it too eventually. The 737 MAX is the modern DC-10 by a magnitude of 10, in terms of errors made by Boeing.



That sounds like a bang up plan. Admit total responsibility for something you are not totally responsible for, before the final reports are published. No sane person, let alone any responsible corporate manager would ever consider that.

By virtue of always being the first two people to the scene of every plane crash, the pilots will almost always be unable to defend themselves. It's the nature of the beast, and the fact they are no longer here, shouldn't stop the evaluation of their performance, good or bad.

I'm not blaming these two crews specifically, there is a much larger problem with the whole system, driven solely by costs. The B.S. "pilot shortage" is only because the airlines have made the job rather unattractive any more. So instead of increased pay and better work rules, let's just lower the requirements (MPL, I'm looking right at you).

IMHO, the lowered requirements for becoming an airline pilot, and policy like this are the heart of the problem. This is from page 183 of the ET 409 accident report, and is from the Ethiopian Airlines Enterprise Flight Operations Policy Manual. I'll bet this, or a statement very much like it is still in their manual, and many other like it across the globe.

Image

When we take young, very low experience pilots, put them in an airliner flight deck, and they spend their careers being systems managers, instead of pilots, we get people who are good at rote tasks, but who struggle when things don't go how they are expected to.

I've already stated in the earlier thread that as a pilot type rated in the 737, and several other transport category jets, I can't understand why any pilot would attempt to engage the autopilot, more than once, with an active stick shaker, and other system abnormalities. My money says the above policy is the answer. When the automation is all you know, you head for your safety blanket, even if it's the totally wrong thing to do.

Hate big bad Boeing all you want, but there are still human factors issues involved in both accidents.


Nice to see some sanity enter the thread..
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
What you posted is a great example of intellectual dishonesty.


if you see it that way it is me just succumbing to peer pressure.
Murphy is an optimist
 
kalvado
Posts: 2089
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:09 pm

yuomi wrote:

Air Astana Flight 1388?

Close, as a metric - crew was prepared for a crash/ditch, situation resolved from the ground.
morrisond wrote:
Lufthansa 1829?

Not really, single failure leading to single effect - loss of pitch control, requiring single reaction - holding back stick.

morrisond wrote:
The Eva Air A330 incident of 2012?

Which one? https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/149194 - not even equipment problem.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:19 pm

oschkosch wrote:
Revelation wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Yes, thx a lot! Like I said earlier: Boeing is using the NYT for PR purposes only. The NYT article is a must read, but only because it shows to what lengths Boeing is prepared to go in order to bend public perception of the max.

Now NYT is part of the pro-Boeing cabal?

Sorry mate, that is not what I said, so please don't put words in my mouth!

Ok, then explain your comment "Boeing is using the NYT for PR purposes only".

How does this go down?

Is NYT being paid off?

Or is the author?

How exactly is Boeing able to be "using the NYT for PR purposes"?

Why didn't Boeing go to "lengths" to shoot down the other articles NYT used to "bend public perception of the max" in an anti-Boeing direction?

Or is this just a borderline slanderous way of shooting the messenger?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:22 pm

WIederling wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What you posted is a great example of intellectual dishonesty.

if you see it that way it is me just succumbing to peer pressure.

Classic debate club move: If you can't defend a position, seek sympathy by resorting to playing the victim.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
timh4000
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:03 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
uta999 wrote:
Before both of the MAX Air Accident reports are published, Boeing should make a statement admitting full and unequivocal responsibility for both incidents. They should not even mention the pilots, who are unable to defend themselves from any blame.

Design, test and build a good aeroplane; document everything, certify everything honestly, and it won't crash itself. An American pilot would have crashed it too eventually. The 737 MAX is the modern DC-10 by a magnitude of 10, in terms of errors made by Boeing.



That sounds like a bang up plan. Admit total responsibility for something you are not totally responsible for, before the final reports are published. No sane person, let alone any responsible corporate manager would ever consider that.

By virtue of always being the first two people to the scene of every plane crash, the pilots will almost always be unable to defend themselves. It's the nature of the beast, and the fact they are no longer here, shouldn't stop the evaluation of their performance, good or bad.

I'm not blaming these two crews specifically, there is a much larger problem with the whole system, driven solely by costs. The B.S. "pilot shortage" is only because the airlines have made the job rather unattractive any more. So instead of increased pay and better work rules, let's just lower the requirements (MPL, I'm looking right at you).

IMHO, the lowered requirements for becoming an airline pilot, and policy like this are the heart of the problem. This is from page 183 of the ET 409 accident report, and is from the Ethiopian Airlines Enterprise Flight Operations Policy Manual. I'll bet this, or a statement very much like it is still in their manual, and many other like it across the globe.

Image

When we take young, very low experience pilots, put them in an airliner flight deck, and they spend their careers being systems managers, instead of pilots, we get people who are good at rote tasks, but who struggle when things don't go how they are expected to.

I've already stated in the earlier thread that as a pilot type rated in the 737, and several other transport category jets, I can't understand why any pilot would attempt to engage the autopilot, more than once, with an active stick shaker, and other system abnormalities. My money says the above policy is the answer. When the automation is all you know, you head for your safety blanket, even if it's the totally wrong thing to do.

Hate big bad Boeing all you want, but there are still human factors issues involved in both accidents.

Good points brought up that among the multiple reasons why 2 MAX planes crashed, human error was a part of the problem. Young /inexperienced pilots who can't think outside the box. Maintenance who didn't fix the faulty sensor. Lack of communication between flight crews.

I'm not a Boeing or Airbus fan. I appreciate both companies aircraft. Boeing has a big role in this, developing a system that was flawed. Not putting it in the QRF, not informing pilots of this new system to avoid sim training and or type rating. Their initial delays in taking any responsibility likely has cost them more time being grounded.

While it shows Boeing has management and safety issues, something that tends to happen from time to time in the aviation business... it's happened to NASA a few times at least that we know about. Boeing needs better management and an improved diligence to safety culture. It should always come 1st. So, while these to crashes has exposed Boeing's faults, it has also exposed faults within issues of pilot shortage, reducing qualification, not enough sim time and perhaps as you stated, pilots who simply become lost when the outcomes of a problem are unexpected with their actions. We need better sim training that calls for pilots to fly the plane using unorthodox methods when the issues call for it. Having said that I'm not one of those who feels automation is overused and that pilots of today aren't talented. With new planes comes new issues that are faced that never would have on a 707, 727, etcetc. So a balance needs to be kept. I have no problems with autopilot being used for 90+% of the flight. But we still need pilots who can think outside the box with these new issues that arise.
 
mrbots
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:07 pm

I've posted this before, but it's come up again. In cause mapping an accident (in basically any industry or situation) you pick out all feasible causes that lead to the accident and create solutions to prevent those causes from happening again. You can't solely place blame on Boeing and move on, you have to dig deeper. This wasn't a near miss that cost a company a few grand, this was a colossal incident costing billions of dollars and hundreds of lives. Just because the pilots can't defend themselves doesn't mean you throw away their actions. There's lessons to be learned into how and why they reacted the way they did. Was it lack of training, poor training, poor personal decision making, sensory overload, etc.? it doesn't matter if it comes back Boeing, the FAA, the airlines, or the pilots themselves, every angle must be vetted. Letting emotion get in the way helps no one but attacking it from every angle, impartially helps create the most thorough systematic improvements going forward.
 
cuban8
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:24 pm

It’s sad to see how this thread is polluted with misinformation. It’s also laughable that posters are still continuing to blame the pilots for these events.

The third pilot who saved the day was in the jump seat. That’s very different from being upfront handling a situation. I’ve been conducting check/safety flights from the jump seat and in the simulator close to 20 years now and believe me, the situation and overall awareness from the back is completely different than from sitting in the front.

The airplane is grounded mainly for one reason and that is MCAS. The fact is, all world wide regulators agree on that fact, the POTUS grounded the MAX based on that fact and even Boeing admits to that fact.

Even after reconstructing the failures in the simulator, very few experts (except on a.net) are blaming the pilots. In fact, nobody (except a.net) is talking about additional pilot training; especially not Boeing.

So how come we all come back to pilot mistakes and extra training in this thread?

Was there a pilot mistake?
Very possible.
Does pilots need extra training?
Sure, we can all gain from extra training.

But how come pilot mistake and extra training of third world pilots is the main topic on this thread? Could people actually start referring these claims to a news article or to an aviation expert, instead of writing their uniformed biased opinion?
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morrisond
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Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:33 pm

kalvado wrote:
yuomi wrote:

Air Astana Flight 1388?

Close, as a metric - crew was prepared for a crash/ditch, situation resolved from the ground.
morrisond wrote:
Lufthansa 1829?

Not really, single failure leading to single effect - loss of pitch control, requiring single reaction - holding back stick.

morrisond wrote:
The Eva Air A330 incident of 2012?

Which one? https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/149194 - not even equipment problem.


Lufthansa 1829 reacted the same way they had too on Both MAX losses - hold stick and turn off Automation - there would have been a lot of Alarms going off.

From the AVHerald report "The captain was able to maintain altitude by providing a continuous nose up input deflecting the side stick about 50% of its travel. The autopilot could not be engaged again, and a manual nose up trim was not possible."

The Skygods won that one.

The Eva Air incident is from this article on LH1829 - I can't find the flight number. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... le-457574/
Last edited by morrisond on Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AABusDrvr
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:39 pm

timh4000 wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
uta999 wrote:
Before both of the MAX Air Accident reports are published, Boeing should make a statement admitting full and unequivocal responsibility for both incidents. They should not even mention the pilots, who are unable to defend themselves from any blame.

Design, test and build a good aeroplane; document everything, certify everything honestly, and it won't crash itself. An American pilot would have crashed it too eventually. The 737 MAX is the modern DC-10 by a magnitude of 10, in terms of errors made by Boeing.



That sounds like a bang up plan. Admit total responsibility for something you are not totally responsible for, before the final reports are published. No sane person, let alone any responsible corporate manager would ever consider that.

By virtue of always being the first two people to the scene of every plane crash, the pilots will almost always be unable to defend themselves. It's the nature of the beast, and the fact they are no longer here, shouldn't stop the evaluation of their performance, good or bad.

I'm not blaming these two crews specifically, there is a much larger problem with the whole system, driven solely by costs. The B.S. "pilot shortage" is only because the airlines have made the job rather unattractive any more. So instead of increased pay and better work rules, let's just lower the requirements (MPL, I'm looking right at you).

IMHO, the lowered requirements for becoming an airline pilot, and policy like this are the heart of the problem. This is from page 183 of the ET 409 accident report, and is from the Ethiopian Airlines Enterprise Flight Operations Policy Manual. I'll bet this, or a statement very much like it is still in their manual, and many other like it across the globe.

Image

When we take young, very low experience pilots, put them in an airliner flight deck, and they spend their careers being systems managers, instead of pilots, we get people who are good at rote tasks, but who struggle when things don't go how they are expected to.

I've already stated in the earlier thread that as a pilot type rated in the 737, and several other transport category jets, I can't understand why any pilot would attempt to engage the autopilot, more than once, with an active stick shaker, and other system abnormalities. My money says the above policy is the answer. When the automation is all you know, you head for your safety blanket, even if it's the totally wrong thing to do.

Hate big bad Boeing all you want, but there are still human factors issues involved in both accidents.

Good points brought up that among the multiple reasons why 2 MAX planes crashed, human error was a part of the problem. Young /inexperienced pilots who can't think outside the box. Maintenance who didn't fix the faulty sensor. Lack of communication between flight crews.

I'm not a Boeing or Airbus fan. I appreciate both companies aircraft. Boeing has a big role in this, developing a system that was flawed. Not putting it in the QRF, not informing pilots of this new system to avoid sim training and or type rating. Their initial delays in taking any responsibility likely has cost them more time being grounded.

While it shows Boeing has management and safety issues, something that tends to happen from time to time in the aviation business... it's happened to NASA a few times at least that we know about. Boeing needs better management and an improved diligence to safety culture. It should always come 1st. So, while these to crashes has exposed Boeing's faults, it has also exposed faults within issues of pilot shortage, reducing qualification, not enough sim time and perhaps as you stated, pilots who simply become lost when the outcomes of a problem are unexpected with their actions. We need better sim training that calls for pilots to fly the plane using unorthodox methods when the issues call for it. Having said that I'm not one of those who feels automation is overused and that pilots of today aren't talented. With new planes comes new issues that are faced that never would have on a 707, 727, etcetc. So a balance needs to be kept. I have no problems with autopilot being used for 90+% of the flight. But we still need pilots who can think outside the box with these new issues that arise.



Automation in the flight deck can be a tremendous tool to reduce work load, and increase situational awareness. It can also become a terrible crutch, that will lead you down a path to undesired aircraft state very quickly. The problem for me, is when it's use is mandated all the time. That coupled with pilots who don't have much experience to start with is a recipe for continued disaster.

It's both painful, and humorous watching a new first officer struggle with the automation when cleared for a visual approach, it would be so much easier, and smoother to just click everything off, and "do some pilot s**t", but that's outside the comfort zone for some.

When flying a visual pattern with everything turned off in recurrent is treated like a major evolution, we have an industry wide problem that needs to be addressed.

And I'll add, I'm shocked and disappointed at Boeing, after some of the things I've read about the "new" management culture. It seems they have truly lost their way. Hopefully they get things turned around, they do build great airplanes.
 
mrbots
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:31 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:43 pm

cuban8 wrote:
So how come we all come back to pilot mistakes and extra training in this thread?


Because the issues with MCAS, Boeing, and the FAA are well known and discussed with no one arguing against them but many don't want to admit that there are things to be improved on in relation to how the pilots handled the situation. Improvements that become training lessons to be taught to Max pilots going forward.
Last edited by mrbots on Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
morrisond
Posts: 1614
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:43 pm

cuban8 wrote:
It’s sad to see how this thread is polluted with misinformation. It’s also laughable that posters are still continuing to blame the pilots for these events.

The third pilot who saved the day was in the jump seat. That’s very different from being upfront handling a situation. I’ve been conducting check/safety flights from the jump seat and in the simulator close to 20 years now and believe me, the situation and overall awareness from the back is completely different than from sitting in the front.

The airplane is grounded mainly for one reason and that is MCAS. The fact is, all world wide regulators agree on that fact, the POTUS grounded the MAX based on that fact and even Boeing admits to that fact.

Even after reconstructing the failures in the simulator, very few experts (except on a.net) are blaming the pilots. In fact, nobody (except a.net) is talking about additional pilot training; especially not Boeing.

So how come we all come back to pilot mistakes and extra training in this thread?

Was there a pilot mistake?
Very possible.
Does pilots need extra training?
Sure, we can all gain from extra training.

But how come pilot mistake and extra training of third world pilots is the main topic on this thread? Could people actually start referring these claims to a news article or to an aviation expert, instead of writing their uniformed biased opinion?


I take it you missed this article from the NYT's - please read https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/maga ... ashes.html
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:54 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:

Hate big bad Boeing all you want, but there are still human factors issues involved in both accidents.


Only fools and idiots think there is a single point of failure in this situation.
 
shankly
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:56 pm

Revelation wrote:
Yes, they had a third pilot in the cockpit, but the key was having one pilot with the right skills, not having two or more lacking the right skills.


Rev, I quietly enjoy your posts, but this made me jump. Go back and listen to those DP Davies interviews I sent you and then think about what you just posted. DP would not have let the 737Max anywhere near the UK registry.....
L1011 - P F M
 
hivue
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:01 pm

uta999 wrote:
They should not even mention the pilots, who are unable to defend themselves from any blame.


I say lets go one better. Let's make this retroactive. Change all previous official accident reports concluding that some form of pilot error was involved where the crew did not survive to eliminate any reference to the (unable to defend themselves) pilots. How about that?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:02 pm

StTim wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:

Hate big bad Boeing all you want, but there are still human factors issues involved in both accidents.


Only fools and idiots think there is a single point of failure in this situation.

Yet on this thread we have quotes such as "Putting the knee into Boeings neck is required" and doing otherwise is a "push for absolving Boeing of any wrong doing".

Meanwhile, even Airbus has said that it's important to the aviation industry that MAX's post-fix safety is verified and it is returned to service.
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oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
Meanwhile, even Airbus has said that it's important to the aviation industry that MAX's post-fix safety is verified and it is returned to service.



And I am sure that we all agree on that! At least I agree that safety is vital. For that to happen Boeing needs to be clear, transparent and honest.

With Boeing management however not being really transparent, how will the max ever be returned SAFELY to the skies?


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kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:23 pm

morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
yuomi wrote:

Air Astana Flight 1388?

Close, as a metric - crew was prepared for a crash/ditch, situation resolved from the ground.
morrisond wrote:
Lufthansa 1829?

Not really, single failure leading to single effect - loss of pitch control, requiring single reaction - holding back stick.

morrisond wrote:
The Eva Air A330 incident of 2012?

Which one? https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/149194 - not even equipment problem.


Lufthansa 1829 reacted the same way they had too on Both MAX losses - hold stick and turn off Automation - there would have been a lot of Alarms going off.

From the AVHerald report "The captain was able to maintain altitude by providing a continuous nose up input deflecting the side stick about 50% of its travel. The autopilot could not be engaged again, and a manual nose up trim was not possible."

The Skygods won that one.

The Eva Air incident is from this article on LH1829 - I can't find the flight number. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... le-457574/

If you will, there is no mention of other warnings which MCAS situations had: stall warning/stick shaker, airspeed disagree - which call for their own analysis and resolution methods. Multiple seemingly independent problems is what I am talking about, not single reason - single response scenarios
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
StTim wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:

Hate big bad Boeing all you want, but there are still human factors issues involved in both accidents.


Only fools and idiots think there is a single point of failure in this situation.

Yet on this thread we have quotes such as "Putting the knee into Boeings neck is required" and doing otherwise is a "push for absolving Boeing of any wrong doing".

Meanwhile, even Airbus has said that it's important to the aviation industry that MAX's post-fix safety is verified and it is returned to service.


Sir- I refer you to my comment. If you look back I have always said there will be plenty of blame to share around.

I directed my comments as much against those who want to lay everything at Boeing’s door as to those who just want to blame the pilots.

Personally I suspect most will lie at Boeing’s door but I wait to read the accident investigation reports.

I read mist AAIB ones.
 
hivue
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:45 pm

StTim wrote:
but I wait to read the accident investigation reports.

I read mist AAIB ones.


The reports you refer to will not be coming from the AAIB (or the NTSB either).
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
DM wants the earliest date, FAA wants as much time as it can get, but not so much as to upset other stakeholders.

I thought the safety of the MAX would be the only stake in all of this. Certification work driven by timelines and other stakes than safety triggered this scandal in the first place. Where is the progress on the learning curve?
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:36 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
Revelation wrote:
DM wants the earliest date, FAA wants as much time as it can get, but not so much as to upset other stakeholders.

I thought the safety of the MAX would be the only stake in all of this. Certification work driven by timelines and other stakes than safety triggered this scandal in the first place. Where is the progress on the learning curve?

Interesting comment, given that FAA took a bit longer than EASA to certify A350 and all kinds of nefarious theories were floated, the sanctity of the safety regime was not an acceptable explanation.

Seems A350 deliveries had a time line to meet, stake holders were complaining, etc.

I guess the status quo going forward is all regulators take as long as they deem necessary for certification, no complaints allowed.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:37 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
Revelation wrote:
DM wants the earliest date, FAA wants as much time as it can get, but not so much as to upset other stakeholders.

I thought the safety of the MAX would be the only stake in all of this. Certification work driven by timelines and other stakes than safety triggered this scandal in the first place. Where is the progress on the learning curve?

Like any finite job, certification work can be planned, events scheduled, and certain timeline - subject to changes in process - can be created...
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:04 pm

hivue wrote:
StTim wrote:
but I wait to read the accident investigation reports.

I read mist AAIB ones.


The reports you refer to will not be coming from the AAIB (or the NTSB either).


I realise that it will not be AAIB or NTSB - but if you read those you should understand how these things are written.
 
Chemist
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:09 pm

n562wn wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
uta999 wrote:
Before both of the MAX Air Accident reports are published, Boeing should make a statement admitting full and unequivocal responsibility for both incidents. They should not even mention the pilots, who are unable to defend themselves from any blame.

Design, test and build a good aeroplane; document everything, certify everything honestly, and it won't crash itself. An American pilot would have crashed it too eventually. The 737 MAX is the modern DC-10 by a magnitude of 10, in terms of errors made by Boeing.



That sounds like a bang up plan. Admit total responsibility for something you are not totally responsible for, before the final reports are published. No sane person, let alone any responsible corporate manager would ever consider that.

By virtue of always being the first two people to the scene of every plane crash, the pilots will almost always be unable to defend themselves. It's the nature of the beast, and the fact they are no longer here, shouldn't stop the evaluation of their performance, good or bad.

I'm not blaming these two crews specifically, there is a much larger problem with the whole system, driven solely by costs. The B.S. "pilot shortage" is only because the airlines have made the job rather unattractive any more. So instead of increased pay and better work rules, let's just lower the requirements (MPL, I'm looking right at you).

IMHO, the lowered requirements for becoming an airline pilot, and policy like this are the heart of the problem. This is from page 183 of the ET 409 accident report, and is from the Ethiopian Airlines Enterprise Flight Operations Policy Manual. I'll bet this, or a statement very much like it is still in their manual, and many other like it across the globe.

Image

When we take young, very low experience pilots, put them in an airliner flight deck, and they spend their careers being systems managers, instead of pilots, we get people who are good at rote tasks, but who struggle when things don't go how they are expected to.

I've already stated in the earlier thread that as a pilot type rated in the 737, and several other transport category jets, I can't understand why any pilot would attempt to engage the autopilot, more than once, with an active stick shaker, and other system abnormalities. My money says the above policy is the answer. When the automation is all you know, you head for your safety blanket, even if it's the totally wrong thing to do.

Hate big bad Boeing all you want, but there are still human factors issues involved in both accidents.


Nice to see some sanity enter the thread..


Yes,
Boeing screwed up big time. But ignoring pilot qualifications would be negligent. By looking at all contributing factors, we make aviation safer for the future.
 
Chemist
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:14 pm

cuban8 wrote:
It’s sad to see how this thread is polluted with misinformation. It’s also laughable that posters are still continuing to blame the pilots for these events.

The third pilot who saved the day was in the jump seat. That’s very different from being upfront handling a situation. I’ve been conducting check/safety flights from the jump seat and in the simulator close to 20 years now and believe me, the situation and overall awareness from the back is completely different than from sitting in the front.

The airplane is grounded mainly for one reason and that is MCAS. The fact is, all world wide regulators agree on that fact, the POTUS grounded the MAX based on that fact and even Boeing admits to that fact.

Even after reconstructing the failures in the simulator, very few experts (except on a.net) are blaming the pilots. In fact, nobody (except a.net) is talking about additional pilot training; especially not Boeing.

So how come we all come back to pilot mistakes and extra training in this thread?

Was there a pilot mistake?
Very possible.
Does pilots need extra training?
Sure, we can all gain from extra training.

But how come pilot mistake and extra training of third world pilots is the main topic on this thread? Could people actually start referring these claims to a news article or to an aviation expert, instead of writing their uniformed biased opinion?


Your term "blaming the pilots" is a simple binary and that is incorrect.
I suspect that fault lies iwith Boeing somewhere around 90%. But 10% with the crew. And that's still important.
It's been a while since I read the prelim report, but didn't in fact the fateful Lion Air flight have a pilot successfully retrimming for some time and then the aircraft did its plunge shortly after control was transferred to the other pilot?
Ignoring the lack of communication on the transfer, that would mean that one pilot was sharp enough to recognize a solution and the other one wasn't. And we're not talking about a disengaged jumpseat pilot here, either.
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:24 pm

Ryanair Freezes Payment to Boeing on 737 Max Delivery Delays

Looks like MoL is getting fed up waiting 'for Boeing to get its shit together'

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ery-delays

MAD MAX10.. any news?
Anyone know if any progress has been made with the 737 MAX10 ?

As far as I know it has not flown yet.
Boeing has designed a new extended main landing gear to address the tail strike issue with such a long fuselage.
There were also issues with emergency evacuation time due to the increased number of seats.
I would have thought such a stretched fuselage may lead to C of G issues too..
Not seen any updates lately.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:27 pm

Chemist wrote:
I suspect that fault lies iwith Boeing somewhere around 90%. But 10% with the crew. And that's still important.

How many % for the FAA ?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:55 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
I'm not blaming these two crews specifically, there is a much larger problem with the whole system, driven solely by costs. The B.S. "pilot shortage" is only because the airlines have made the job rather unattractive any more. So instead of increased pay and better work rules, let's just lower the requirements (MPL, I'm looking right at you).

IMHO, the lowered requirements for becoming an airline pilot, and policy like this are the heart of the problem.
When we take young, very low experience pilots, put them in an airliner flight deck, and they spend their careers being systems managers, instead of pilots, we get people who are good at rote tasks, but who struggle when things don't go how they are expected to.

I want to put some of your post into context, especially the context of the developing world versus the developed world and the USA. The B.S. "pilot shortage" is mostly a USA problem / construct if you like, in the developing world, airline pilots is still seen as a glamour job not available to all, no shortage there and the pay scale is at or close to the top of highest paid earners. A lot of pilots start young flying charters not big jet's but props, some only get jet training when hired by the airline.
We can agree or disagree on the safety culture and the effects on operations, but if we take your post as being about the USA market, how is your current safety standards in operation, good, better than the developed world? If yes, then the bigger gripe would be the squeeze on wages, and that would be a Wall St. problem, still a USA centric problem since most foreign citizens cannot partake, companies and governments yes.
Crashes of a/c flown by non-USA pilots have grounded the MAX, causing USA airlines and Boeing financial pain, unfortunately, we cannot say that their lack of skill and or poor airline safety culture is the only reason why those a/c crashed, even if we just take the limited liability of Boeing's official statement that they put too much load on the pilots.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:04 pm

Chemist wrote:
cuban8 wrote:
It’s sad to see how this thread is polluted with misinformation. It’s also laughable that posters are still continuing to blame the pilots for these events.

The third pilot who saved the day was in the jump seat. That’s very different from being upfront handling a situation. I’ve been conducting check/safety flights from the jump seat and in the simulator close to 20 years now and believe me, the situation and overall awareness from the back is completely different than from sitting in the front.

The airplane is grounded mainly for one reason and that is MCAS. The fact is, all world wide regulators agree on that fact, the POTUS grounded the MAX based on that fact and even Boeing admits to that fact.

Even after reconstructing the failures in the simulator, very few experts (except on a.net) are blaming the pilots. In fact, nobody (except a.net) is talking about additional pilot training; especially not Boeing.

So how come we all come back to pilot mistakes and extra training in this thread?

Was there a pilot mistake?
Very possible.
Does pilots need extra training?
Sure, we can all gain from extra training.

But how come pilot mistake and extra training of third world pilots is the main topic on this thread? Could people actually start referring these claims to a news article or to an aviation expert, instead of writing their uniformed biased opinion?


Your term "blaming the pilots" is a simple binary and that is incorrect.
I suspect that fault lies iwith Boeing somewhere around 90%. But 10% with the crew. And that's still important.
It's been a while since I read the prelim report, but didn't in fact the fateful Lion Air flight have a pilot successfully retrimming for some time and then the aircraft did its plunge shortly after control was transferred to the other pilot?
Ignoring the lack of communication on the transfer, that would mean that one pilot was sharp enough to recognize a solution and the other one wasn't. And we're not talking about a disengaged jumpseat pilot here, either.

You are making the same mistake as the NYT article author. Making assumptions and drawing inference on the actions and abilities of the pilots to suit a narrative without the evidence to so do - it is not in the report. (at least it is without the vitriolic personal character assassinations of the NYT article thankfully).

Ray
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:11 pm

"Crash Course"
How Boeing's managerial revolution created the 737 MAX disaster
A long read, but well worth it

https://newrepublic.com/article/154944/ ... revolution
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:15 pm

While comity between certification agencies throughout the world is a good thing, I think more 'verifying' is not a bad thing. Even small countries with fewer staffing could pick up a few areas and dig a little deeper. Had EASA (or Ebonia - LOL) come up with reservations about MCAS al involved would have benefited.
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:19 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
While comity between certification agencies throughout the world is a good thing, I think more 'verifying' is not a bad thing. Even small countries with fewer staffing could pick up a few areas and dig a little deeper. Had EASA (or Ebonia - LOL) come up with reservations about MCAS al involved would have benefited.

My only question would be how would small countries force large companies in the developed world to take their concerns seriously, you really believe that there is mutual respect?
It would be a shocker if that is the case in aviation safety, because it is not in anything else.
 
ZKCIF
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:20 pm

par13del is extremely right. The situation with pilot hiring has incredibly changed during the last decade or two. the number of commercial aircraft seems to have doubled. Meanwhile, for the case of the USA, Uncle Sam does not train two or three times more guys to fly while in the army. Consequently, pilots have to be sourced elsewhere.
Many countries/airlines are already suffering from pilot shortage.
Seeing the production of 787s and 320NEOs going through the roof I do not expect it to improve.
Hence, the average quality of the pilots is not going to go up just because the "entry fee" is extremely high, and the ability to afford it does not correlate with the potential.
I believe that our only chance is the attractiveness of this job to young girls. Women are still underrepresented.
-----
Coming back to the two disasters: pilots may be to blame to some very minor extent, but we should not expect their standards of competence go up soon. Therefore, it is essential to facilitate the job of a pilot in order not to give them a chance of making a mistake. If MAX becomes a bigger challenge than other aircraft, its longterm statistics will be disastrous (including USA). we should have no illusions. That is why I do hope that regulators will help Boeing understand that they can make no compromise. Otherwise, OK, they get a green light now, but with relatively high complexity, we will have a crash a year. The industry cannot afford it. Boeing cannot just focus on its stock value of tomorrow.
 
Chemist
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:29 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
Chemist wrote:
I suspect that fault lies iwith Boeing somewhere around 90%. But 10% with the crew. And that's still important.

How many % for the FAA ?


You're right, I would probably put Boeing at 75% and FAA at 15% and pilots at perhaps 10% on that. Obviously just my own slightly educated rough opinion. Clearly Boeing and the FAA most at fault. But I'm just saying let's not sweep pilot training/competence under the rug as that's still an important (although relatively minor IMHO) factor.
 
hivue
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:31 pm

StTim wrote:
hivue wrote:
StTim wrote:
but I wait to read the accident investigation reports.

I read mist AAIB ones.


The reports you refer to will not be coming from the AAIB (or the NTSB either).


I realise that it will not be AAIB or NTSB - but if you read those you should understand how these things are written.


I do read them and admire how they are written. I hope that Indonesian and Ethiopian authorities read them and have the same appreciation for their comprehensiveness, transparency, and objectivity.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
Chemist
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:31 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
Chemist wrote:
cuban8 wrote:
It’s sad to see how this thread is polluted with misinformation. It’s also laughable that posters are still continuing to blame the pilots for these events.

The third pilot who saved the day was in the jump seat. That’s very different from being upfront handling a situation. I’ve been conducting check/safety flights from the jump seat and in the simulator close to 20 years now and believe me, the situation and overall awareness from the back is completely different than from sitting in the front.

The airplane is grounded mainly for one reason and that is MCAS. The fact is, all world wide regulators agree on that fact, the POTUS grounded the MAX based on that fact and even Boeing admits to that fact.

Even after reconstructing the failures in the simulator, very few experts (except on a.net) are blaming the pilots. In fact, nobody (except a.net) is talking about additional pilot training; especially not Boeing.

So how come we all come back to pilot mistakes and extra training in this thread?

Was there a pilot mistake?
Very possible.
Does pilots need extra training?
Sure, we can all gain from extra training.

But how come pilot mistake and extra training of third world pilots is the main topic on this thread? Could people actually start referring these claims to a news article or to an aviation expert, instead of writing their uniformed biased opinion?


Your term "blaming the pilots" is a simple binary and that is incorrect.
I suspect that fault lies iwith Boeing somewhere around 90%. But 10% with the crew. And that's still important.
It's been a while since I read the prelim report, but didn't in fact the fateful Lion Air flight have a pilot successfully retrimming for some time and then the aircraft did its plunge shortly after control was transferred to the other pilot?
Ignoring the lack of communication on the transfer, that would mean that one pilot was sharp enough to recognize a solution and the other one wasn't. And we're not talking about a disengaged jumpseat pilot here, either.

You are making the same mistake as the NYT article author. Making assumptions and drawing inference on the actions and abilities of the pilots to suit a narrative without the evidence to so do - it is not in the report. (at least it is without the vitriolic personal character assassinations of the NYT article thankfully).

Ray


Exactly. It's my opinion from all I've read, mostly in this forum. We're all offering our assumptions and drawing inferences here.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:34 pm

par13del wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
While comity between certification agencies throughout the world is a good thing, I think more 'verifying' is not a bad thing. Even small countries with fewer staffing could pick up a few areas and dig a little deeper. Had EASA (or Ebonia - LOL) come up with reservations about MCAS al involved would have benefited.

My only question would be how would small countries force large companies in the developed world to take their concerns seriously, you really believe that there is mutual respect?
It would be a shocker if that is the case in aviation safety, because it is not in anything else.


Good question. Take the Philippines, I spent a modest amount of time there, I met and knew a lot of smart well trained people. Some of their regulatory staff likely have global academic credentials, experience and reputation in some areas. There are likely thousands of specific certifications in a jet liner. Those person could review a few of the FAA reviews in areas they know. I would like to think that regulatory agencies throughout the world cooperate when a new model is introduced. Maybe not everything would get the second review, but the aim should be that most critical items would get a second review. Had lower level FAA people had more support from 'overseas' perhaps they could have overcome FAA and Boeing manager carelessness.
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:39 pm

So a new debate question, how does the FAA, NTSB and the USA congress get Boeing to commit to a FBW narrow body a/c to replace the MAX?
We know it cannot be immediately as that would send Boeing into Chpt.11, we know they cannot use military contracts to keep them afloat as those contracts do have to deliver a product, is it possible for the FAA to state that the MAX has reached its grandfather limit and no additional upgrades requiring certification approval will be allowed after the a/c is cleared to fly?
 
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zkojq
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:41 pm

ikramerica wrote:

In the first crash, the pilots the night before knew what to do and did it.


Yes - all three of them. Amazing what an extra set of eyes can do in the flight deck. The only time MCAS errors have been overcome is when the plane has three pilots upfront. Maybe that should be a condition of ungrounding.

ikramerica wrote:
Boeing made a crap system. All they can do is fix that. They can’t fix those airlines. Only the airlines can properly train their pilots and properly dispatch their aircraft.


The fact that most crews and FAA pilots have crashed the simulator with the MCAS fix shows that the issue is not specific to Lion or Ethiopian.

Chemist wrote:
In fact, Lion Air had a smart person in the cockpit that allowed a flight to proceed with the malfunction


A third pilot. Not specifically a "smart person" but a third off duty pilot.

WIederling wrote:
Interesting writeup on the NYT Langewiesche screed:
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/09/1 ... .html#more

Langewiesche is fairly obviously a stooge. I'm sure that one of Boeing's K Street lobbyists paid him handsomely for his efforts.


oschkosch wrote:
Boeing is using the NYT for PR purposes only. The NYT article is a must read, but only because it shows to what lengths Boeing is prepared to go in order to bend public perception of the max.

:checkmark:

dougbr2006 wrote:
It has been Boeing's intention from day 1 to put the blame on anything or anyone but them.

They first tried to blame the pilots for not implementing the flight manual (Which turned out that MCAS wasn`t clearly mentioned in the Lion Air Flight Manual)
Then after Ethiopian they tried to blame inadequate training and knowledge of the system, plus low hour co-pilot. (Even though it has been shown that the crew did carry out the procedure but the MCAS had proved to be difficult to overcome)

:checkmark: And after both accidents (but especially Ethiopian) they did all they could to tell the world that 1) the crashes were unrelated to the aircraft and 2) that thus the MAX shouldn't be grounded. Lots of their minions here did their best to push both of those narratives.
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Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos