XRAYretired
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:50 pm

Chemist wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
Chemist wrote:

Your term "blaming the pilots" is a simple binary and that is incorrect.
I suspect that fault lies iwith Boeing somewhere around 90%. But 10% with the crew. And that's still important.
It's been a while since I read the prelim report, but didn't in fact the fateful Lion Air flight have a pilot successfully retrimming for some time and then the aircraft did its plunge shortly after control was transferred to the other pilot?
Ignoring the lack of communication on the transfer, that would mean that one pilot was sharp enough to recognize a solution and the other one wasn't. And we're not talking about a disengaged jumpseat pilot here, either.

You are making the same mistake as the NYT article author. Making assumptions and drawing inference on the actions and abilities of the pilots to suit a narrative without the evidence to so do - it is not in the report. (at least it is without the vitriolic personal character assassinations of the NYT article thankfully).

Ray


Exactly. It's my opinion from all I've read, mostly in this forum. We're all offering our assumptions and drawing inferences here.

The only valid information for those last moments of the flight is that in the report. It is entirely possible to paint an entirely different story that may actually be closer to the truth. Too many fall for the rhetoric that purports to be knowledgeable without any relationship to reality.

Ray
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9199
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:52 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Had lower level FAA people had more support from 'overseas' perhaps they could have overcome FAA and Boeing manager carelessness.

It then becomes a nationalism issue, just like Europeans and Americans don't like the other "telling them what to do or that they were wrong or heaven forbid missed something, smaller countries are following the big boys and will do the same thing.
Look at when there are accidents and or natural disasters, there will be those who when the lights are bright, want to show how good they are.
We just had a major disaster in the Bahamas, and our ATC controllers in addition to dealing with a single runway at NAS now had a massive number of relief flights and every Tom Dick and Harry who has a single engine prop flying VFR into the country, some to view the damage others to being in relief, for the first couple days it was rough. The US military finally delivered a mobile unit to Abaco so that more direct control can be at the island of the country most in need for those flights. I have seen reports from pilots very critical of our controllers in the first couple days, others accept that it was just a perfect storm and they were overwhelmed and yes in some cases, out of their depth.
However, this is when assistance from the big boys work and the young get a chance to learn to improve and get better. We are looking at taking over more control of our air space, depending on how we are graded, it could get easier or more difficult.
Apologies for derailing, but just thought to show an existing example where both sides of the divide can work together.
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:02 pm

par13del wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Had lower level FAA people had more support from 'overseas' perhaps they could have overcome FAA and Boeing manager carelessness.

It then becomes a nationalism issue, just like Europeans and Americans don't like the other "telling them what to do or that they were wrong or heaven forbid missed something, smaller countries are following the big boys and will do the same thing.
Look at when there are accidents and or natural disasters, there will be those who when the lights are bright, want to show how good they are.
We just had a major disaster in the Bahamas, and our ATC controllers in addition to dealing with a single runway at NAS now had a massive number of relief flights and every Tom Dick and Harry who has a single engine prop flying VFR into the country, some to view the damage others to being in relief, for the first couple days it was rough. The US military finally delivered a mobile unit to Abaco so that more direct control can be at the island of the country most in need for those flights. I have seen reports from pilots very critical of our controllers in the first couple days, others accept that it was just a perfect storm and they were overwhelmed and yes in some cases, out of their depth.
However, this is when assistance from the big boys work and the young get a chance to learn to improve and get better. We are looking at taking over more control of our air space, depending on how we are graded, it could get easier or more difficult.
Apologies for derailing, but just thought to show an existing example where both sides of the divide can work together.

Best wishes to any and all doing their bit in the face of a calamitous disaster.

Ray
 
JHwk
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:11 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:04 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
How many % for the FAA ?



Fundamentally, 0%. Anything they deferred on becomes Boeing's sole responsibility.

That doesn't mean they didn't fail at their job; they clearly did. However, from a "responsbility" matrix they are just a level of checks and balances and not the designer in responsible charge.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3943
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:14 pm

TheF15Ace wrote:
I was just making sure that anybody new to the forum was aware of what you said and what you actually meant. For those who followed the ET crash/MAX grounding threads from the start, you adding that sob story above to the end of each of your posts would only be a waste of time and bandwidth.


Isn't it peculiar how the same folks who keep relentlessly advocating for "better training globally" don't advocate Sim training for MAX crew upon an ungrounding - let alone promote that idea with anything like the same vigour. :scratchchin:

Revelation wrote:

Yes, they had a third pilot in the cockpit, but the key was having one pilot with the right skills, not having two or more lacking the right skills.

Nonsense. The key was having one pilot off-duty with a low workload. And the issue manifesting itself during cruise.

cuban8 wrote:
I’ve been conducting check/safety flights from the jump seat and in the simulator close to 20 years now and believe me, the situation and overall awareness from the back is completely different than from sitting in the front.


I couldn't agree more.

AABusDrvr wrote:
Automation in the flight deck can be a tremendous tool to reduce work load, and increase situational awareness. It can also become a terrible crutch, that will lead you down a path to undesired aircraft state very quickly. The problem for me, is when it's use is mandated all the time.


Agreed but that's a problem with the SOPs (and the powers at be who write and enforce them) rather than the actual crew. You know there's a problem higher up when a crew won't risk flying a raw data approach on a cavok day because they're fearful of big brother finding out.
First to fly the 787-9
 
Chemist
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:28 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
Chemist wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
You are making the same mistake as the NYT article author. Making assumptions and drawing inference on the actions and abilities of the pilots to suit a narrative without the evidence to so do - it is not in the report. (at least it is without the vitriolic personal character assassinations of the NYT article thankfully).

Ray


Exactly. It's my opinion from all I've read, mostly in this forum. We're all offering our assumptions and drawing inferences here.

The only valid information for those last moments of the flight is that in the report. It is entirely possible to paint an entirely different story that may actually be closer to the truth. Too many fall for the rhetoric that purports to be knowledgeable without any relationship to reality.

Ray


It seems you're saying nobody can have an opinion based upon what they know or have heard. Is that a mistake? I said "I suspect" and qualified it as my humble opinion. This is a discussion board. If I was having coffee with you, that's the type of conversation we would have. Most of the posts in this entire thread are opinions as we all know the number of facts publicized are still limited. It appears you are saying that if it's not 100% factual, don't have an opinion and don't post anything like that here.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3225
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:58 pm

flyingphil wrote:
"Crash Course"
How Boeing's managerial revolution created the 737 MAX disaster
A long read, but well worth it

https://newrepublic.com/article/154944/ ... revolution


I read the article in full:

1. It is largely unfair, because

2. It is written in 'journalese'*, a type of reporting I particularly find offensive

3. It is mostly true.

* for example, in 'journalese' restaurant reviews, the reporter has an all over impression, but each and every item is spun to support that impression. Even though it simply does not apply. "I do not like this dish, therefore it has too much (too little) salt. The plate was not the right sized. The waiter did not look happy, the food was too hot (the food was too cool) etc. etc. etc.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
rjsampson
Posts: 375
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:00 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:05 pm

Just a quick tip for people trying to access NYT articles after reaching your limit (or any other article-quota site):

Use a proxy, and you can read as many as you want. Do a google search for "online proxy", and enter the URL.
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. But GA is so dang expensive these days! :(
 
morrisond
Posts: 1672
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:05 pm

zkojq wrote:
TheF15Ace wrote:
I was just making sure that anybody new to the forum was aware of what you said and what you actually meant. For those who followed the ET crash/MAX grounding threads from the start, you adding that sob story above to the end of each of your posts would only be a waste of time and bandwidth.


Isn't it peculiar how the same folks who keep relentlessly advocating for "better training globally" don't advocate Sim training for MAX crew upon an ungrounding - let alone promote that idea with anything like the same vigour. :scratchchin:



I did - I said all Pilots should have to demonstrate the ability to complete a full flight using full manual control as part of recurrent training.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3968
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:17 am

How ‘bout just doing so “on the line”. Just don’t engage the autopilot.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3968
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:24 am

sgrow787 wrote:
marktci wrote:
MSN.com picked up the NYT article and you should be able to read it here (if you can't get to it through the NYT site):

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/wh ... li=AAggNb9

The one problem with his (journalist Langewiesche, who is brand new to NYT, the linked article being his very first, so not much credibility there to begin with) point about Boeing being pilots first, is that Boeing would have given pilots the information on the new system, MCAS, if that were true. At that point, Boeing is depending on the training of loyal domestic pilots to pull them out of trouble. They're going to ask the ROTW to empirically approve the ungrounding based on a few months of domestic flight metrics, or however long it takes to will their way. Absolutely astonishing, the article as well as the saga..

Edit to add:
The other thing is, if Boeing was aware of inadequacies in Lion Air's pilot training, why would Boeing then decide to test out that inadequacy with real live passengers at stake, with their own safety record on the line? Isnt the more simple answer that they couldnt get the proper work done (ie with sensor redundancy) in the time promised, and they made a choice to stop "waxing that apple" and go make money??


Langwiesche is a very experienced aviator and writer with many years at Atlantic and other publications. Cheap hit there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Langewiesche
 
morrisond
Posts: 1672
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:00 am

zkojq wrote:
ikramerica wrote:

In the first crash, the pilots the night before knew what to do and did it.


Yes - all three of them. Amazing what an extra set of eyes can do in the flight deck. The only time MCAS errors have been overcome is when the plane has three pilots upfront. Maybe that should be a condition of ungrounding.

ikramerica wrote:
Boeing made a crap system. All they can do is fix that. They can’t fix those airlines. Only the airlines can properly train their pilots and properly dispatch their aircraft.


The fact that most crews and FAA pilots have crashed the simulator with the MCAS fix shows that the issue is not specific to Lion or Ethiopian.

Chemist wrote:
In fact, Lion Air had a smart person in the cockpit that allowed a flight to proceed with the malfunction


A third pilot. Not specifically a "smart person" but a third off duty pilot.

WIederling wrote:
Interesting writeup on the NYT Langewiesche screed:
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/09/1 ... .html#more

Langewiesche is fairly obviously a stooge. I'm sure that one of Boeing's K Street lobbyists paid him handsomely for his efforts.


oschkosch wrote:
Boeing is using the NYT for PR purposes only. The NYT article is a must read, but only because it shows to what lengths Boeing is prepared to go in order to bend public perception of the max.

:checkmark:

dougbr2006 wrote:
It has been Boeing's intention from day 1 to put the blame on anything or anyone but them.

They first tried to blame the pilots for not implementing the flight manual (Which turned out that MCAS wasn`t clearly mentioned in the Lion Air Flight Manual)
Then after Ethiopian they tried to blame inadequate training and knowledge of the system, plus low hour co-pilot. (Even though it has been shown that the crew did carry out the procedure but the MCAS had proved to be difficult to overcome)

:checkmark: And after both accidents (but especially Ethiopian) they did all they could to tell the world that 1) the crashes were unrelated to the aircraft and 2) that thus the MAX shouldn't be grounded. Lots of their minions here did their best to push both of those narratives.


The point people are trying to make is that if that third pilot was in the front he probably would have saved it without a third person in the cockpit - he recognized the problem and knew what the fix was.

The Simulator tests were done at the point where the plane was so far gone (Multiple non-countered MCAS activations and severely overspeed) that yes it was impossible to save. If pilots had been put in the sims at the same point where the first mistakes were made and used the Boeing procedures the outcomes would most decidedly have been very different.

As Galaxyflyer pointed out the NYT Journalist does have a pretty impressive background.

It has not been proven that the ET crew actually followed the correct procedure. Yes they might have turned the Electric Trim system off but by not pulling the thrust back they made the controls unusable even if they did try the manual trim which is debatable.

The issues are not as clear cut as you are trying to make them.

Obviously the MAX should be grounded as the assumed expertise of Pilots Worldwide as assumed by regulation and used in certification does not exist.
 
TheF15Ace
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:27 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:32 am

zkojq wrote:
TheF15Ace wrote:
I was just making sure that anybody new to the forum was aware of what you said and what you actually meant. For those who followed the ET crash/MAX grounding threads from the start, you adding that sob story above to the end of each of your posts would only be a waste of time and bandwidth.


Isn't it peculiar how the same folks who keep relentlessly advocating for "better training globally" don't advocate Sim training for MAX crew upon an ungrounding - let alone promote that idea with anything like the same vigour. :scratchchin:



Oh absolutely. Anything that goes against Boeing's ''she's just like the NG'' sales pitch/delays RTS is apparently a big no-no :shakehead:

The only training that matters is flying circuits around a field in a 172 to achieve 1500 hours. The accompanying master type rating (valid for Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, Bombardier etc) and Skygod status will ensure that any situation can be dealt with accordingly. ;)
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7001
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:22 am

StTim wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
Hate big bad Boeing all you want, but there are still human factors issues involved in both accidents.


Only fools and idiots think there is a single point of failure in this situation.

The performance of the accident crews is interesting, and we will know more when the reports are released. Even Boeing complains that they do not get all relevant information. We know even less.

But at the end of the day, this thread is about grounding of the MAX. Strictly speaking, the MAX i not grounded because it crashed. It is grounded because with MCAS 1.0 it does not comply with certification requirements.

Sadly its shortcomings were discovered following the accidents. It would have been a lot better had it been discovered before anything really serious happened, as was the case when the 787 was grounded. But we were not that lucky this time.

Fixing the MAX and evaluating the accident crews' performance are two entirely different things. But the latter is the less interesting thing because no MAX crew will ever again be faced with what the Lion and Ethiopian accident crews were up against.

Whether we are talking average skill crews, 20,000 hr super heroes, or those 50% who are below average, they will never get a chance to pull a handle of flip a switch on a MCAS 1.0 equipped MAX. And that is exactly what matters.

Then we can continue to talk about the quality of crew training, as we have done for a hundred years, including differences around the world. And it will be discussed in five - ten years time when airline companies, insurance companies and Boeing will still be fighting in courts around the world about compensations related to the MAX accidents.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
AABusDrvr
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:34 am

TheF15Ace wrote:
zkojq wrote:
TheF15Ace wrote:
I was just making sure that anybody new to the forum was aware of what you said and what you actually meant. For those who followed the ET crash/MAX grounding threads from the start, you adding that sob story above to the end of each of your posts would only be a waste of time and bandwidth.


Isn't it peculiar how the same folks who keep relentlessly advocating for "better training globally" don't advocate Sim training for MAX crew upon an ungrounding - let alone promote that idea with anything like the same vigour. :scratchchin:



Oh absolutely. Anything that goes against Boeing's ''she's just like the NG'' sales pitch/delays RTS is apparently a big no-no :shakehead:

The only training that matters is flying circuits around a field in a 172 to achieve 1500 hours. The accompanying master type rating (valid for Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, Bombardier etc) and Skygod status will ensure that any situation can be dealt with accordingly. ;)


No one has any illusion that the MAX is “just like an NG”. But as a guy who received his company designed, computer based MAX differences training, and was able to successfully fly a MAX. I’m curious exactly what everyone thinks needs to be trained in a simulator. If it’s ultimately required, I’ll attend whatever training is mandated, but I believe it will be a waste of all our time.

You need to understand, it’s not the 1500 hours that’s required, it’s the experience and judgement you acquire getting those hours.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21788
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:45 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Langwiesche is a very experienced aviator and writer with many years at Atlantic and other publications. Cheap hit there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Langewiesche

:checkmark:

People should do a little research.

It's open season on messengers these days: shoot first and ask questions later.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
flyingphil
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:56 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:15 am

Australia may ban Boeing 737 Max even if US gives it all-clear

"...Global air safety authorities, including Casa, are due to meet on Monday in Montreal to discuss the Max issue at a meeting called by the FAA."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -all-clear
 
TheF15Ace
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:27 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:45 am

AABusDrvr wrote:
TheF15Ace wrote:
zkojq wrote:

Isn't it peculiar how the same folks who keep relentlessly advocating for "better training globally" don't advocate Sim training for MAX crew upon an ungrounding - let alone promote that idea with anything like the same vigour. :scratchchin:



Oh absolutely. Anything that goes against Boeing's ''she's just like the NG'' sales pitch/delays RTS is apparently a big no-no :shakehead:

The only training that matters is flying circuits around a field in a 172 to achieve 1500 hours. The accompanying master type rating (valid for Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, Bombardier etc) and Skygod status will ensure that any situation can be dealt with accordingly. ;)


No one has any illusion that the MAX is “just like an NG”. But as a guy who received his company designed, computer based MAX differences training, and was able to successfully fly a MAX. I’m curious exactly what everyone thinks needs to be trained in a simulator. If it’s ultimately required, I’ll attend whatever training is mandated, but I believe it will be a waste of all our time.


We should hear about it from EASA and possibly other regulating bodies before a RTS if they deem it necessary. Might not apply specifically to you but just as there are differing views on initial training others might not follow in lockstep with the FAA.

You need to understand, it’s not the 1500 hours that’s required, it’s the experience and judgement you acquire getting those hours.


And you need to understand that an FAA rule implemented after Colgan 3407 in 2009 doesn't suddenly make it the absolute gold standard and anyone who doesn't follow that path and that path alone is any less of a pilot. After all you do need to consider the amount of non Cessna training that a pilot goes through before ever setting foot inside an Airbus/Boeing flight deck even to do base training on said type. Unless you mean that airlines from around the world, from major international carriers to regional LCCs are conducting thousands of safe flight operations daily only due to sheer luck.
 
User avatar
flyingphil
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:56 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:47 am

FAA waiting for more software details before 737 MAX can return to service

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1W509E

So, some actual news for a change. Seems the ungrounding is still a long way off.
 
oschkosch
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:50 am

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/faa-c ... 2019-09-19

So he did the sim and says it is favorable yet the safety analysis is not finished.

The nation’s top aviation regulator tested new flight-control software for the Boeing 737 Max in a simulator on Thursday and gave it a favorable review. New Federal Aviation Administration chief Stephen Dickson, who is a pilot, also toured the Max assembly line near Seattle and met with senior Boeing officials. The Max has been grounded since March after two crashes killed 346 people. Boeing hopes the FAA will allow it to fly again in the next couple months. But Dickson said his agency has no timetable for reviewing changes that Boeing is making to the plane.

Boeing has not yet submitted its safety analysis of the changes. Dickson said he has seen draft materials that still need more work. He did not provide details.
 
cuban8
Posts: 239
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:17 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:51 am

Revelation wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Langwiesche is a very experienced aviator and writer with many years at Atlantic and other publications. Cheap hit there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Langewiesche

:checkmark:

People should do a little research.

It's open season on messengers these days: shoot first and ask questions later.


I don’t know Mr. Langewiesche’s aviation experience, but this Wikipedia information doesn’t really convince me in any direction. Probably half of the a.net posters on here have a similar aviation experience/background (minus the journalism side of it).

I find the NYT article better than the average aviation article. That being said, there is a lot of generalizations and wrong “facts” made by the author to suit his narrative. I will try to comment on them later today.
When business goes to hell, you get rid of three things. Your private jet, your yacht and your mistress..........and most importantly in that order.
~ Russian Billionaire ~
 
sgrow787
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:00 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Langwiesche is a very experienced aviator and writer with many years at Atlantic and other publications. Cheap hit there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Langewiesche


Doesn't say what kind of planes he flew. If it was commercial it would have said "commercial pilot" and what airlines and how many hours. I'm not a pilot but I know there's a big difference flying a crop duster that can land pretty much anywhere and a commercial jet, with all the automation layers, and sensors, with 100+ passengers and crew you're responsible for.

Besides, if he was qualified, this article from Moon Of Alabama points out several inconsistencies and errors in his NYT piece (as posted earlier today):

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/09/1 ... .html#more

How anyone can start a dialog blaming dead pilots for not responding correctly to a system on a new plane that Boeing purposely concealed from them is unbelievable in my honest opinion. On top of that, one of its (loyal) customers, Southwest, was kept in the dark, from mid-2017 till after the Lion Air crash in Oct 2018, about the AOA disagree indicator not working because some engineer accidentally programmed the AOA indicator option into it:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/28/boeing- ... f-wsj.html

So yes, it's important to have the right training and skills as a pilot. But the accident is prevented if the plane manufacturer doesn't put their product into service until it's certified safe to do so.

Besides, haven't we already determined that MCAS 1.0 was all but unrecoverable at low altitude and high speed (Mentour Pilot's manual trim video was at 265 knots, well under VMO, and they couldn't budge the trim wheel). So even experienced pilots would not have survived the accident scenario. And if the pilots on this forum and elsewhere are so confident in how easy it would be to solve errant MCAS 1.0, where are the videos of one duck taping the left AOA vane at 75 degrees, and taking off just to show us how it's done? Couldn't test pilots do that for us? I think we know the answer to that one.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1251
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:48 am

prebennorholm wrote:
StTim wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
Hate big bad Boeing all you want, but there are still human factors issues involved in both accidents.


Only fools and idiots think there is a single point of failure in this situation.

The performance of the accident crews is interesting, and we will know more when the reports are released. Even Boeing complains that they do not get all relevant information. We know even less.

But at the end of the day, this thread is about grounding of the MAX. Strictly speaking, the MAX i not grounded because it crashed. It is grounded because with MCAS 1.0 it does not comply with certification requirements.

Sadly its shortcomings were discovered following the accidents. It would have been a lot better had it been discovered before anything really serious happened, as was the case when the 787 was grounded. But we were not that lucky this time.

Fixing the MAX and evaluating the accident crews' performance are two entirely different things. But the latter is the less interesting thing because no MAX crew will ever again be faced with what the Lion and Ethiopian accident crews were up against.

Whether we are talking average skill crews, 20,000 hr super heroes, or those 50% who are below average, they will never get a chance to pull a handle of flip a switch on a MCAS 1.0 equipped MAX. And that is exactly what matters.

Then we can continue to talk about the quality of crew training, as we have done for a hundred years, including differences around the world. And it will be discussed in five - ten years time when airline companies, insurance companies and Boeing will still be fighting in courts around the world about compensations related to the MAX accidents.

In a cacophony of voices claiming that they are presenting the only balanced analysis, yours is one of the only truly balanced posts I’ve read in a while. Thank you for that.

It’s stunning to see the hypocrisy here sometimes. People will claim that they are balanced, and looking at the whole picture, and in the very next sentence they will be stoking the fires of Airbus vs Boeing. It beggars belief at times.

Just because you’re good at debating, it doesn’t mean you’re right. Some people around here could use a little self-reflection, and maybe some toning back the hubris. That’s saying nothing of the jingoism that persists.

Thank you again, prebennorholm. I’ve been thinking for a while how to express what you wrote.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:08 am

rjsampson wrote:
Just a quick tip for people trying to access NYT articles after reaching your limit (or any other article-quota site):

Use a proxy, and you can read as many as you want. Do a google search for "online proxy", and enter the URL.


Delete the site related cookies in your browser after a visit.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17679
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:16 am

prebennorholm wrote:
And it will be discussed in five - ten years time when airline companies, insurance companies and Boeing will still be fighting in courts around the world about compensations related to the MAX accidents.


I see Boeing settling - there's no way they want their failings on MCAS 1.0 exposed to detailed scrutiny in a public court.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:19 am

morrisond wrote:
The point people are trying to make is that if that third pilot was in the front he probably would have saved it without a third person in the cockpit - he recognized the problem and knew what the fix was.


The third guy had zero workload.
From what I've seen reported his understanding of the issues was not "instant" either.

Watch, think, while twiddling thumbs... coming to a tentative solution, have it tested and voila.
no comparison to
working as a paired crew member flying the plane under significant regular workload.

completely different involvement and thus time available for introspection.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17679
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:42 am

WIederling wrote:
morrisond wrote:
The point people are trying to make is that if that third pilot was in the front he probably would have saved it without a third person in the cockpit - he recognized the problem and knew what the fix was.


The third guy had zero workload.
From what I've seen reported his understanding of the issues was not "instant" either.

Watch, think, while twiddling thumbs... coming to a tentative solution, have it tested and voila.
no comparison to
working as a paired crew member flying the plane under significant regular workload.

completely different involvement and thus time available for introspection.


Did he not also go and fetch the flight manual from his carry-on?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3504
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:55 am

The NYT article has exposed the binary narrative we're seeing from certain parties. Even though the NYT author was highly critical of all parties involved, that's not acceptable to some. If you're not placing 100% of blame in one certain direction and 0% in every other, you're a PR man, hit piece author, not credible, etc. Sad. It's exposing extreme bias, but they don't care.

I miss the days of aviation being a family that supported each other no matter the circumstances. Clearly those days are long gone. Instead of the aviation community versus the outside world, it's now a civil war.

sgrow787 wrote:
Besides, if he was qualified, this article from Moon Of Alabama points out several inconsistencies and errors in his NYT piece (as posted earlier today):
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/09/1 ... .html#more


I see infinitely more qualification in the professional words of Langewiesche.

The link is not worth repeating, in my honest opinion.
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:11 am

flyingphil wrote:
Australia may ban Boeing 737 Max even if US gives it all-clear

"...Global air safety authorities, including Casa, are due to meet on Monday in Montreal to discuss the Max issue at a meeting called by the FAA."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -all-clear

Not something VA wants to hear. It would be a headache for them to switch to the 320/321NEO.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:20 am

MSPNWA wrote:
I miss the days of aviation being a family that supported each other no matter the circumstances. Clearly



That has long been killed with superanuated designs being dragged forward and
imbecile campaigns like "here the pilot is in real command".
Similar problematic and/or polarizing competitive techniques.

"The Best of the Best .." are no longer alone on their hill
and tribal recourse has long been taken.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Alfons
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:17 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:42 am

morrisond wrote:
The Simulator tests were done at the point where the plane was so far gone (Multiple non-countered MCAS activations and severely overspeed).


Source?
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:26 am

Revelation wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Langwiesche is a very experienced aviator and writer with many years at Atlantic and other publications. Cheap hit there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Langewiesche

:checkmark:

People should do a little research.

It's open season on messengers these days: shoot first and ask questions later.

The NYT need to find only a single guy to write this article. Compare that with all the official messages we got from regulators and airlines this days regarding the 737-8/9 MAX return to service. Clearly this guy is alone and have to assume that position.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2115
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:40 am

PixelFlight wrote:
Revelation wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Langwiesche is a very experienced aviator and writer with many years at Atlantic and other publications. Cheap hit there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Langewiesche

:checkmark:

People should do a little research.

It's open season on messengers these days: shoot first and ask questions later.

The NYT need to find only a single guy to write this article. Compare that with all the official messages we got from regulators and airlines this days regarding the 737-8/9 MAX return to service. Clearly this guy is alone and have to assume that position.

There will always be a spectrum of opinions, and NYT will be in the wrong denying professionally presented materials a right to be considered just because they disagree with the author (well, do not try to apply that to current president topic). Readers have equal right to agree or disagree with those articles.
IMHO NYT can be in the right by provocing a discussion and publishing a response of some sort within a few days; or in the wrong by obliging to Boeing PR colleagues or even worse, a call from owners or DC. Nonetheless, publishing an opinion I disagree with is definitely a right of free press.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:40 am

scbriml wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
And it will be discussed in five - ten years time when airline companies, insurance companies and Boeing will still be fighting in courts around the world about compensations related to the MAX accidents.


I see Boeing settling - there's no way they want their failings on MCAS 1.0 exposed to detailed scrutiny in a public court.

Sure there don't want that, but it that realistically avoidable since there officially published an EAD about the MCAS starting with "prompted by analysis performed by the manufacturer" ?
I always thought that the EAD will become an unavoidable central evidence in the legal aspect of this drama.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:50 am

kalvado wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Revelation wrote:
:checkmark:

People should do a little research.

It's open season on messengers these days: shoot first and ask questions later.

The NYT need to find only a single guy to write this article. Compare that with all the official messages we got from regulators and airlines this days regarding the 737-8/9 MAX return to service. Clearly this guy is alone and have to assume that position.

There will always be a spectrum of opinions, and NYT will be in the wrong denying professionally presented materials a right to be considered just because they disagree with the author (well, do not try to apply that to current president topic). Readers have equal right to agree or disagree with those articles.
IMHO NYT can be in the right by provocing a discussion and publishing a response of some sort within a few days; or in the wrong by obliging to Boeing PR colleagues or even worse, a call from owners or DC. Nonetheless, publishing an opinion I disagree with is definitely a right of free press.

Agree. To be clear, I also support the right to publish any opinion about facts, and any speculations, as long as the reaction about them are also free. Often the tricky part is to split facts from speculations, as some situation can be very complex, like for example the safety culture in a big company that makes a lot of money by cutting cost.
 
planecane
Posts: 1236
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:08 am

prebennorholm wrote:
But at the end of the day, this thread is about grounding of the MAX. Strictly speaking, the MAX i not grounded because it crashed. It is grounded because with MCAS 1.0 it does not comply with certification requirements.


It is 100% grounded because it crashed (twice). If the same incidents had happened but the crews recovered there would have just been an AD and Boeing would have rolled out a software change after a few months.
 
planecane
Posts: 1236
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:15 am

sgrow787 wrote:
Besides, haven't we already determined that MCAS 1.0 was all but unrecoverable at low altitude and high speed (Mentour Pilot's manual trim video was at 265 knots, well under VMO, and they couldn't budge the trim wheel). So even experienced pilots would not have survived the accident scenario. And if the pilots on this forum and elsewhere are so confident in how easy it would be to solve errant MCAS 1.0, where are the videos of one duck taping the left AOA vane at 75 degrees, and taking off just to show us how it's done? Couldn't test pilots do that for us? I think we know the answer to that one.


No, we haven't determined that MCAS 1.0 was all but unrecoverable at low altitude and high speed. The manual trim wheel wouldn't matter if the electric trim was used to get back in trim before cutting it off.

As for your experiment, first of all anybody that set out to do that demonstration would recover easily because they would know what is coming and be ready to counteract the trim and cut out the switches as soon as the flaps were retracted. Second, there can't be any videos because the fleet is grounded and the pilot who did that would be terminated if they weren't grounded. Nobody can do a simulator video because the MAX simulators didn't simulate MCAS. Maybe it could be faked in an NG simulator by programming the different failures simultaneously and setting off a runaway stabilizer. Does anybody know if an NG simulator can be programmed for a single side stick shaker and associated issues of a failed AoA sensor?
 
Noshow
Posts: 1082
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:21 am

That's a procedure nobody could know and nobody had suggested for a system made unknown to pilots at that time.
Still on the blame the pilots narrative?
 
asdf
Posts: 496
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:42 am

Noshow wrote:
That's a procedure nobody could know and nobody had suggested for a system made unknown to pilots at that time.
Still on the blame the pilots narrative?



well, they want to unground within the next ten days
so the blame has to spread wide ...
 
morrisond
Posts: 1672
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:44 am

Alfons wrote:
morrisond wrote:
The Simulator tests were done at the point where the plane was so far gone (Multiple non-countered MCAS activations and severely overspeed).


Source?


Watch the videos - they were debated here multiple times.
 
morrisond
Posts: 1672
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:47 am

PixelFlight wrote:
scbriml wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
And it will be discussed in five - ten years time when airline companies, insurance companies and Boeing will still be fighting in courts around the world about compensations related to the MAX accidents.


I see Boeing settling - there's no way they want their failings on MCAS 1.0 exposed to detailed scrutiny in a public court.

Sure there don't want that, but it that realistically avoidable since there officially published an EAD about the MCAS starting with "prompted by analysis performed by the manufacturer" ?
I always thought that the EAD will become an unavoidable central evidence in the legal aspect of this drama.


They probably won't have much a leg to stand on with Lionair - but I can see them fighting ET to the bitter end. It fits their narrative and there will probably be enough doubt about the ET crew actions that this is the course they will probably take.
 
planecane
Posts: 1236
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:50 am

asdf wrote:
Noshow wrote:
That's a procedure nobody could know and nobody had suggested for a system made unknown to pilots at that time.
Still on the blame the pilots narrative?



well, they want to unground within the next ten days
so the blame has to spread wide ...


Early Q4 does not mean the first day of Q4. Clearly, they aren't targeting the first day since they haven't even submitted the final package yet.
 
Noshow
Posts: 1082
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:19 am

They now have changed the entire MCAS-system and the use of onboard computers (dual now) and inform and train the pilots different.
They finally changed the aircraft not because the pilots were to blame.
 
planecane
Posts: 1236
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:41 am

Noshow wrote:
They now have changed the entire MCAS-system and the use of onboard computers (dual now) and inform and train the pilots different.
They finally changed the aircraft not because the pilots were to blame.


They changed the aircraft because there was clearly an issue with the design of MCAS that led to an unacceptably high rate of runaway stabilizer incidents and worldwide regulatory agencies were not going to allow it to fly again if they didn't.

The final reports on the crashes haven't been released yet. Therefore the amount of blame assigned to pilots is speculation and opinion at this point. The blame for the failure mode caused by multiple bad decisions in the design of MCAS falls 100% on Boeing. "Blame" for the crashes will likely be spread, at least in part, to other factors. Regardless of the pilots or MCAS, Lion Air dispatched a plane that landed with a known malfunctioning sensor. That crash would not have happened if the failed sensor was replaced and verified to be in working order. It is also true that if MCAS had been designed properly the crash would not have occurred. It isn't so black and white that there is one cause and one party to blame.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:45 am

morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
scbriml wrote:

I see Boeing settling - there's no way they want their failings on MCAS 1.0 exposed to detailed scrutiny in a public court.

Sure there don't want that, but it that realistically avoidable since there officially published an EAD about the MCAS starting with "prompted by analysis performed by the manufacturer" ?
I always thought that the EAD will become an unavoidable central evidence in the legal aspect of this drama.


They probably won't have much a leg to stand on with Lionair - but I can see them fighting ET to the bitter end. It fits their narrative and there will probably be enough doubt about the ET crew actions that this is the course they will probably take.

Will see...
ET302 pilots did not recognize the first MCAS AND in time as expected by Boeing and the FAA (3 seconds expected), but there was not trained to do that in the scenario there faced. There reacted 9 seconds later than expected. For the second MCAS AND there reacted 5 seconds later than expected. Then ET302 pilots followed the EAD procedure that did not take in account the elevator loss of authority and the too small trim wheels, and that procedure contains nothing about the flags or the speed. I doubt that Boeing can uses that 9 and 5 seconds delay, in a never trained failure scenario, to avoid anything. The expected reaction time was unrealistic in that situation, and the training to recognize in time in that situation was missing.
 
Alfons
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:17 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:52 am

morrisond wrote:
Alfons wrote:
morrisond wrote:
The Simulator tests were done at the point where the plane was so far gone (Multiple non-countered MCAS activations and severely overspeed).


Source?


Watch the videos - they were debated here multiple times.


I have a good friend, he believes in a lot of things. Like the earth is flat, the sun moves around earth, and much more. And when I ask him from where he gets his knowledge and qualitative explenations, he tells me... "Youtube". Then I watch his "youtubes", and I get...zero understanding about what I see.

You can not make points with Youtubes.
 
morrisond
Posts: 1672
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:02 pm

Alfons wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Alfons wrote:

Source?


Watch the videos - they were debated here multiple times.


I have a good friend, he believes in a lot of things. Like the earth is flat, the sun moves around earth, and much more. And when I ask him from where he gets his knowledge and qualitative explenations, he tells me... "Youtube". Then I watch his "youtubes", and I get...zero understanding about what I see.

You can not make points with Youtubes.


Ok - then don't bring up the Mentour Pilot video which was posted on Youtube.
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:03 pm

planecane wrote:
Noshow wrote:
They now have changed the entire MCAS-system and the use of onboard computers (dual now) and inform and train the pilots different.
They finally changed the aircraft not because the pilots were to blame.


They changed the aircraft because there was clearly an issue with the design of MCAS that led to an unacceptably high rate of runaway stabilizer incidents and worldwide regulatory agencies were not going to allow it to fly again if they didn't.

The final reports on the crashes haven't been released yet. Therefore the amount of blame assigned to pilots is speculation and opinion at this point. The blame for the failure mode caused by multiple bad decisions in the design of MCAS falls 100% on Boeing. "Blame" for the crashes will likely be spread, at least in part, to other factors. Regardless of the pilots or MCAS, Lion Air dispatched a plane that landed with a known malfunctioning sensor. That crash would not have happened if the failed sensor was replaced and verified to be in working order. It is also true that if MCAS had been designed properly the crash would not have occurred. It isn't so black and white that there is one cause and one party to blame.

No. There was not a known malfunctioning AOA sensor. The pilots best assessment was their problems were related to airspeed malfunction and this was addressed.

Ray
 
Noshow
Posts: 1082
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:04 pm

Alfons, you are welcome to ignore facts however that video was visual proof from a NG full flight sim. Credible.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:08 pm

Question about the horizontal stabilizer trim neutralization:

In both JT610 and ET302 the published flight data records shows that when the pilots used manual electrical stabilizer trim switches to command a nose up after a MCAS automated nose down command, there seem to have difficulties to trim nose up long enough to fully neutralize the horizontal stabilizer to the point where the yoke pitch can be relaxed by both pilots. I see this difficulty as one of the Emmental cheese holes that aligned in the crashes. My understanding is that the pilots very routinely use the electric stab trim switches in any flights, so there are perfectly familiar with them. But the JT610 and ET302 records suggests something like hesitations to continues the stab trim up, and/or a lack of perception on the necessity to continue the stab trim up. Do we have some explanations about this ?

I was speculating that maybe if both pilots applies pitch forces on the yoke, the one that switch the electrical stab trim up might stop when he feel that his pitch force on the yoke disappear, regardless of the pitch force that the other pilot can still apply to the yoke. In consequences the stab trim could not be easily fully neutralized in case both pilots applies pitch force on the yoke.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos