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rheinwaldner
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:38 am

Revelation wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
Revelation wrote:
And the P&P article is exactly what Airbus PR would want to be putting out, yet we have no way of knowing if either are involved.

Correct, we cant know. But let me talk about plausibility and probability. Try to think into the heads of people in Boeing's PR department. Don't forget, they need to rebuild trust into the MAX. So what they need are unsuspicious and unconnected sources that bolster the MAX and, if possible, even play down the deadliness of the original design. So having journalists whitewashing the MAX is undeniably a priceless contribution to reach that target. Now, is it unheard that large corporations "control" the media to steer the public opinion? No, it happens. Can it be proved by anybody? No, it can't, as you correctly say, compensations to anybody can be easily hidden from anybody. So is it likely in this case? I would be astonished, if Boeing would not put some effort in appearing favorable in the media....

My $0.02: Someone like Langewiesche with a detailed record of decades of journalism is not on the take, and attempts to suggest otherwise are coming from people who simply do not want his article to gain any consideration. Also, suggesting NYT is on the take is another form of shooting the messenger, and even less convincing given that NYT has published many pieces that Boeing PR would not approve.

Langewiesche has a strong opinion, as does Goyer. Both should gain consideration. Suggesting either or both are being paid off is a cheap shot and an absurdity given their decades long track records. In some regard their opinions are in alignment, but to discuss that further we'll need to use a different forum.

First you say, "we have no way of knowing of either are involved" then you suddenly know "that there is no involvement". Changing the opinion as it suits your narrative?
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airtechy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:43 am

barney captain wrote:
IMHO, the NYT article was spot on.


I agree with all his technical and pilotage write up. I assume he has a source for his remarks derived from the data recorders. He basically is saying that every company and government entity has some level of responsibility for the two accidents, but when the problem occurred in the cockpits the pilots should have been able to handle it. That they couldn't handle what was obviously a case of runaway trim without referring to a checklist is astonishing as the fix is a MEMORY item .. use the CUTOFF switches. Runaway trim has been recognized as an issue that requires immediate action for years .. ever since a motor was added to the manual trim wheels. That's why the yoke has two trim switches wired in series so that if one fails stuck the other one will halt the trimming action. The fact that MCAS caused an intermittent trimming action is irrelevant (and a red herring) as any number of failures can cause that including shorts, opens in wiring or failure of the autopilot itself. A bubble chart of possible trim failures would lead to one fix .. use the CUTOFF switches, use the backup manual trim, and then deal with any other issues.

As an electrical engineer .. and a pilot .. who has designed similar flight control systems, I do find it hard to understand why .. if what has been published is correct .. Boeing designed the MCAS system the way they did. I'm sure at this point .. and with 20/20 hindsight .. they don't either. But their really big failure in the MCAS case was expecting a worldwide pilot base of varying capability to be able to handle a failure that manifested itself as an obvious runaway trim fault. It's sad but the reality is that pilots are trained around automation and protections which can cover for lower pilot skills ninety nine percent of the time but not in the one percent where basic skills are really needed. Maybe they were never learned in the first place.

Jim
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:21 am

WPIAeroGuy wrote:
kalvado wrote:
WPIAeroGuy wrote:
They couldn't predict the failure of the pilots not the sensor.

Could, and moreover - should have done so; and hopefully will face consequences on both corporate and personal level for failure to do so.


I could not disagree more. I'm sorry, but if you're an engineer in 2012 there is no way in hell you would convince anyone that the runaway trim NNC would not apply and would not resolve the problem. You want to hold people personally liable even though the airplane met the certification requirements at the time?


disagree all you want. It has no push through to reality.

MCAS on MAX did not meet certification requirements.
Certification was based on FAA looking left and whistling while Boeing management looked right and whistled an tuneless tune
after they set an uneducated intern on the job ( MCAS ) to have the desired result.
Additionally processes at the FAA and in interaction with Boeing did not meet the "task set" by law.
If not Boeing the last backstop FAA should have put a stop to that deficient design proposal.

That actually is the thing EASA balks at. FAA nonconformance to their own rule set. System is broken.
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:29 am

airtechy wrote:
barney captain wrote:
IMHO, the NYT article was spot on.


I agree with all his technical and pilotage write up. I assume he has a source for his remarks derived from the data recorders. He basically is saying that every company and government entity has some level of responsibility for the two accidents, but when the problem occurred in the cockpits the pilots should have been able to handle it. That they couldn't handle what was obviously a case of runaway trim without referring to a checklist is astonishing as the fix is a MEMORY item .. use the CUTOFF switches. Runaway trim has been recognized as an issue that requires immediate action for years .. ever since a motor was added to the manual trim wheels. That's why the yoke has two trim switches wired in series so that if one fails stuck the other one will halt the trimming action. The fact that MCAS caused an intermittent trimming action is irrelevant (and a red herring) as any number of failures can cause that including shorts, opens in wiring or failure of the autopilot itself. A bubble chart of possible trim failures would lead to one fix .. use the CUTOFF switches, use the backup manual trim, and then deal with any other issues.

As an electrical engineer .. and a pilot .. who has designed similar flight control systems, I do find it hard to understand why .. if what has been published is correct .. Boeing designed the MCAS system the way they did. I'm sure at this point .. and with 20/20 hindsight .. they don't either. But their really big failure in the MCAS case was expecting a worldwide pilot base of varying capability to be able to handle a failure that manifested itself as an obvious runaway trim fault. It's sad but the reality is that pilots are trained around automation and protections which can cover for lower pilot skills ninety nine percent of the time but not in the one percent where basic skills are really needed. Maybe they were never learned in the first place.

Jim

The absolute raw fact is that ET302 pilots did recognize the failure as a runaway trim stabilizer. But this was not enough to survive.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:24 am

PixelFlight wrote:
airtechy wrote:
barney captain wrote:
IMHO, the NYT article was spot on.


I agree with all his technical and pilotage write up. I assume he has a source for his remarks derived from the data recorders. He basically is saying that every company and government entity has some level of responsibility for the two accidents, but when the problem occurred in the cockpits the pilots should have been able to handle it. That they couldn't handle what was obviously a case of runaway trim without referring to a checklist is astonishing as the fix is a MEMORY item .. use the CUTOFF switches. Runaway trim has been recognized as an issue that requires immediate action for years .. ever since a motor was added to the manual trim wheels. That's why the yoke has two trim switches wired in series so that if one fails stuck the other one will halt the trimming action. The fact that MCAS caused an intermittent trimming action is irrelevant (and a red herring) as any number of failures can cause that including shorts, opens in wiring or failure of the autopilot itself. A bubble chart of possible trim failures would lead to one fix .. use the CUTOFF switches, use the backup manual trim, and then deal with any other issues.

As an electrical engineer .. and a pilot .. who has designed similar flight control systems, I do find it hard to understand why .. if what has been published is correct .. Boeing designed the MCAS system the way they did. I'm sure at this point .. and with 20/20 hindsight .. they don't either. But their really big failure in the MCAS case was expecting a worldwide pilot base of varying capability to be able to handle a failure that manifested itself as an obvious runaway trim fault. It's sad but the reality is that pilots are trained around automation and protections which can cover for lower pilot skills ninety nine percent of the time but not in the one percent where basic skills are really needed. Maybe they were never learned in the first place.

Jim

The absolute raw fact is that ET302 pilots did recognize the failure as a runaway trim stabilizer. But this was not enough to survive.

However, they apparently didn't understand how to perform the recovery procedure. It is a fact that they cut off the electric trim before getting back into trim. Had they finished trimming before moving the cutout switches, they would have recovered. Unless it turns out that there was something preventing the electric trim from trimming further nose up (which there isn't any evidence of in the preliminary report) there is no reason the ET crew shouldn't have recovered. Like you said, they recognized the runaway stabilizer.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:46 am

planecane wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
airtechy wrote:

I agree with all his technical and pilotage write up. I assume he has a source for his remarks derived from the data recorders. He basically is saying that every company and government entity has some level of responsibility for the two accidents, but when the problem occurred in the cockpits the pilots should have been able to handle it. That they couldn't handle what was obviously a case of runaway trim without referring to a checklist is astonishing as the fix is a MEMORY item .. use the CUTOFF switches. Runaway trim has been recognized as an issue that requires immediate action for years .. ever since a motor was added to the manual trim wheels. That's why the yoke has two trim switches wired in series so that if one fails stuck the other one will halt the trimming action. The fact that MCAS caused an intermittent trimming action is irrelevant (and a red herring) as any number of failures can cause that including shorts, opens in wiring or failure of the autopilot itself. A bubble chart of possible trim failures would lead to one fix .. use the CUTOFF switches, use the backup manual trim, and then deal with any other issues.

As an electrical engineer .. and a pilot .. who has designed similar flight control systems, I do find it hard to understand why .. if what has been published is correct .. Boeing designed the MCAS system the way they did. I'm sure at this point .. and with 20/20 hindsight .. they don't either. But their really big failure in the MCAS case was expecting a worldwide pilot base of varying capability to be able to handle a failure that manifested itself as an obvious runaway trim fault. It's sad but the reality is that pilots are trained around automation and protections which can cover for lower pilot skills ninety nine percent of the time but not in the one percent where basic skills are really needed. Maybe they were never learned in the first place.

Jim

The absolute raw fact is that ET302 pilots did recognize the failure as a runaway trim stabilizer. But this was not enough to survive.

However, they apparently didn't understand how to perform the recovery procedure. It is a fact that they cut off the electric trim before getting back into trim. Had they finished trimming before moving the cutout switches, they would have recovered. Unless it turns out that there was something preventing the electric trim from trimming further nose up (which there isn't any evidence of in the preliminary report) there is no reason the ET crew shouldn't have recovered. Like you said, they recognized the runaway stabilizer.

Not that they were alone, Boeing didn't really understand things either.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:07 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
First you say, "we have no way of knowing of either are involved" then you suddenly know "that there is no involvement". Changing the opinion as it suits your narrative?

First part is fact.

Second part was prefaced by "My $0.02" thus opinion.

But thanks for the gratuitous attack.

You seem to have a lot invested in the idea that media outlets are being corrupted by PR firms without offering any form of evidence.

Care to offer some?

You do know this kind of accusation without proof does comes across as shooting the messenger, right?
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:18 pm

Reuters: FAA chief invites Boeing 737 MAX feedback from divided world regulators is another write up from the Montreal IATA meeting.

One part of interest:

FAA Administrator Steve Dickson told the regulators in Montreal “accidents in complex systems rarely are the result of a single cause; rather, they often happen due to a complex chain of events and interaction between man and machine.”

He said all countries must “foster improvements in standards and approaches for not just in how aircraft are designed and produced, but how they are maintained and operated.

That's a pretty balanced approach, and not surprising given Dickson's career path.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:20 pm

FAA misled Congress on inspector training for Boeing 737 Max, investigators say

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html

quote:

Investigators examining a whistleblower complaint have concluded that safety inspectors who worked on training requirements for Boeing 737 Max pilots were themselves “underqualified” — and that the Federal Aviation Administration provided misleading information about the issue to Congress.

and

Boeing and the FAA have faced intense criticism for failing to make sure pilots had the information and training necessary to handle any problems with a new automated safety feature on the Max, known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS. Investigators say the feature, fed by faulty data from a sensor, repeatedly misfired, forcing the nose of both planes down before they crashed.

and

The Office of Audit and Evaluation reported in February that it had reviewed training records for all aviation safety inspectors assigned to an office in Seattle, where the Boeing 737 Max was evaluated, and in Long Beach, where questions about inspector training were first raised by the whistleblower concerning a separate Gulfstream aircraft.

The FAA auditors “found 16 of 22 (73%) have not completed the required formal training course. Worse yet, at least 11 of the 16 do not qualify to enroll in the course because they do not hold a Certified Flight Instructor certificate,” they wrote.


It seems to me that the responsibility of insufficient training for 737MAX pilots lies squarely at the feet of the FAA and Boeing.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:23 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
airtechy wrote:
barney captain wrote:
IMHO, the NYT article was spot on.


I agree with all his technical and pilotage write up. I assume he has a source for his remarks derived from the data recorders. He basically is saying that every company and government entity has some level of responsibility for the two accidents, but when the problem occurred in the cockpits the pilots should have been able to handle it. That they couldn't handle what was obviously a case of runaway trim without referring to a checklist is astonishing as the fix is a MEMORY item .. use the CUTOFF switches. Runaway trim has been recognized as an issue that requires immediate action for years .. ever since a motor was added to the manual trim wheels. That's why the yoke has two trim switches wired in series so that if one fails stuck the other one will halt the trimming action. The fact that MCAS caused an intermittent trimming action is irrelevant (and a red herring) as any number of failures can cause that including shorts, opens in wiring or failure of the autopilot itself. A bubble chart of possible trim failures would lead to one fix .. use the CUTOFF switches, use the backup manual trim, and then deal with any other issues.

As an electrical engineer .. and a pilot .. who has designed similar flight control systems, I do find it hard to understand why .. if what has been published is correct .. Boeing designed the MCAS system the way they did. I'm sure at this point .. and with 20/20 hindsight .. they don't either. But their really big failure in the MCAS case was expecting a worldwide pilot base of varying capability to be able to handle a failure that manifested itself as an obvious runaway trim fault. It's sad but the reality is that pilots are trained around automation and protections which can cover for lower pilot skills ninety nine percent of the time but not in the one percent where basic skills are really needed. Maybe they were never learned in the first place.

Jim

The absolute raw fact is that ET302 pilots did recognize the failure as a runaway trim stabilizer. But this was not enough to survive.


No for them it wasn't - as has been stated a zillion times - they left Autothrottle engaged in TOGO and therefore didn't have much control over pitch or power. Reducing thrust would have made it a lot easier to control pitch. However there is no evidence of that until the very end of the flight.

This was a basic skill that does not need to be part of any Emergency Checklist.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:25 pm

planecane wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
airtechy wrote:

I agree with all his technical and pilotage write up. I assume he has a source for his remarks derived from the data recorders. He basically is saying that every company and government entity has some level of responsibility for the two accidents, but when the problem occurred in the cockpits the pilots should have been able to handle it. That they couldn't handle what was obviously a case of runaway trim without referring to a checklist is astonishing as the fix is a MEMORY item .. use the CUTOFF switches. Runaway trim has been recognized as an issue that requires immediate action for years .. ever since a motor was added to the manual trim wheels. That's why the yoke has two trim switches wired in series so that if one fails stuck the other one will halt the trimming action. The fact that MCAS caused an intermittent trimming action is irrelevant (and a red herring) as any number of failures can cause that including shorts, opens in wiring or failure of the autopilot itself. A bubble chart of possible trim failures would lead to one fix .. use the CUTOFF switches, use the backup manual trim, and then deal with any other issues.

As an electrical engineer .. and a pilot .. who has designed similar flight control systems, I do find it hard to understand why .. if what has been published is correct .. Boeing designed the MCAS system the way they did. I'm sure at this point .. and with 20/20 hindsight .. they don't either. But their really big failure in the MCAS case was expecting a worldwide pilot base of varying capability to be able to handle a failure that manifested itself as an obvious runaway trim fault. It's sad but the reality is that pilots are trained around automation and protections which can cover for lower pilot skills ninety nine percent of the time but not in the one percent where basic skills are really needed. Maybe they were never learned in the first place.

Jim

The absolute raw fact is that ET302 pilots did recognize the failure as a runaway trim stabilizer. But this was not enough to survive.

However, they apparently didn't understand how to perform the recovery procedure. It is a fact that they cut off the electric trim before getting back into trim. Had they finished trimming before moving the cutout switches, they would have recovered. Unless it turns out that there was something preventing the electric trim from trimming further nose up (which there isn't any evidence of in the preliminary report) there is no reason the ET crew shouldn't have recovered. Like you said, they recognized the runaway stabilizer.


The procedure does not include electric trimming before cutting the switches. It is an addendum to the procedure where it is mentioned to first use the electrical trim to trim the frame. Nowhere is a clear statement, that you will not be able to use the manual trim system all over the flight envelope.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:26 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
FAA misled Congress on inspector training for Boeing 737 Max, investigators say

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html

quote:

Investigators examining a whistleblower complaint have concluded that safety inspectors who worked on training requirements for Boeing 737 Max pilots were themselves “underqualified” — and that the Federal Aviation Administration provided misleading information about the issue to Congress.

and

Boeing and the FAA have faced intense criticism for failing to make sure pilots had the information and training necessary to handle any problems with a new automated safety feature on the Max, known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS. Investigators say the feature, fed by faulty data from a sensor, repeatedly misfired, forcing the nose of both planes down before they crashed.

and

The Office of Audit and Evaluation reported in February that it had reviewed training records for all aviation safety inspectors assigned to an office in Seattle, where the Boeing 737 Max was evaluated, and in Long Beach, where questions about inspector training were first raised by the whistleblower concerning a separate Gulfstream aircraft.

The FAA auditors “found 16 of 22 (73%) have not completed the required formal training course. Worse yet, at least 11 of the 16 do not qualify to enroll in the course because they do not hold a Certified Flight Instructor certificate,” they wrote.


It seems to me that the responsibility of insufficient training for 737MAX pilots lies squarely at the feet of the FAA and Boeing.


I wouldn't disagree with that on differences training between the NG and MAX. However basic training and pilot skills is another matter - that is on the Home countries regulators and airlines.
 
jmry888
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:26 pm

So where is it written that the airlines themselves cannot do more training like hands on flying and sim time. They have to be told by a regulatory body to do it ? They are not allowed to be proactive and do that with out being told to do it ? Just asking because i don't know the answer.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:35 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
FAA misled Congress on inspector training for Boeing 737 Max, investigators say

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html

quote:

Investigators examining a whistleblower complaint have concluded that safety inspectors who worked on training requirements for Boeing 737 Max pilots were themselves “underqualified” — and that the Federal Aviation Administration provided misleading information about the issue to Congress.

and

Boeing and the FAA have faced intense criticism for failing to make sure pilots had the information and training necessary to handle any problems with a new automated safety feature on the Max, known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS. Investigators say the feature, fed by faulty data from a sensor, repeatedly misfired, forcing the nose of both planes down before they crashed.

and

The Office of Audit and Evaluation reported in February that it had reviewed training records for all aviation safety inspectors assigned to an office in Seattle, where the Boeing 737 Max was evaluated, and in Long Beach, where questions about inspector training were first raised by the whistleblower concerning a separate Gulfstream aircraft.

The FAA auditors “found 16 of 22 (73%) have not completed the required formal training course. Worse yet, at least 11 of the 16 do not qualify to enroll in the course because they do not hold a Certified Flight Instructor certificate,” they wrote.


It seems to me that the responsibility of insufficient training for 737MAX pilots lies squarely at the feet of the FAA and Boeing.

For some balance, FAA's response was:

The FAA said in a statement to Reuters it remains “confident in our representations to Congress and in the work of our aviation safety professionals.”

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1W812Y
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Francoflier
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:39 pm

morrisond wrote:
No for them it wasn't - as has been stated a zillion times - they left Autothrottle engaged in TOGO and therefore didn't have much control over pitch or power. Reducing thrust would have made it a lot easier to control pitch. However there is no evidence of that until the very end of the flight.

This was a basic skill that does not need to be part of any Emergency Checklist.


I see your attempts to shift blame on the crews continue unabated. You are relentless in your diverting effort, I'll give you that.

Since when does less thrust helps with pitch control again? I'd love it if you refreshed my memory on those basic pilot skills you keep talking about since, last I was in flight school, reducing thrust in a conventional jet induced a pitch down moment...
:scratchchin:
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:39 pm

planecane wrote:
However, they apparently didn't understand how to perform the recovery procedure. It is a fact that they cut off the electric trim before getting back into trim. Had they finished trimming before moving the cutout switches, they would have recovered. Unless it turns out that there was something preventing the electric trim from trimming further nose up (which there isn't any evidence of in the preliminary report) there is no reason the ET crew shouldn't have recovered. Like you said, they recognized the runaway stabilizer.

ET302 pilots fully implemented the EAD procedure. That procedure was badly redacted and left open the possibility to use the manual trim wheels without any warning about the fact that there are not usable at high speed. You can't expect the pilots to understand something that is not written in the procedure. The fact that the trim wheels was not usable at high speed was not explain enough to the pilots. In addition that EAD procedure was never the subject of a training requirement, so you can't expect pilots to flawlessly implement it fast enough to fight the MCAS, especially with unusual workload and stress caused by multiple disagreement indications. As such scenario should not have passed the safety assessment. This is one of the issue that the safety agencies are working on.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:42 pm

jmry888 wrote:
So where is it written that the airlines themselves cannot do more training like hands on flying and sim time. They have to be told by a regulatory body to do it ? They are not allowed to be proactive and do that with out being told to do it ? Just asking because i don't know the answer.

More hands flying with pax in easy conditions will give 9nly that much effect. Same as with hours buildup in US - feel good, little effect. Doing so in more difficult environment will lead to accidents.
Sim training may have some positive effect, but return of investment is diminishing for a pretty expensive training. Big question is what you're going to train for. Some most challenging common situations are trained for, going down the list again means diminishing returns.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:47 pm

jmry888 wrote:
So where is it written that the airlines themselves cannot do more training like hands on flying and sim time. They have to be told by a regulatory body to do it ? They are not allowed to be proactive and do that with out being told to do it ? Just asking because i don't know the answer.

These are the same companies that happily charge you $$$ to reserve a seat in advance, book aisle/window seats, sell 28" seat pitch by default, offer telephone box sized loos, etc.

We are finding many airlines don't do anything beyond the minimum level specified by law, even though the minimums were supposed to be guidelines for worst case acceptable behaviors.

Heck, it should be clear by now to everyone that in some cases simply bribing the regulator is standard practice, and since that is cheaper for the airlines and for pilot candidates, that's how it often happens.

This year, two New York Times reporters, Hannah Beech and Muktita Suhartono, spoke to a former investigator who said that after a previous Lion Air accident, an airline employee tried to hand over a black garbage bag full of cash. The surprise was that the investigator did not accept it. Beech and Suhartono wrote: “Such payments from Lion Air were common because transportation-safety officials were poorly paid, former investigators said. A former high-level Lion Air employee confirmed that when he worked at the company, clandestine payments to government investigators, even for restaurants and prostitutes, were routine.” I admired the reporters’ restraint in their use of the past tense. It is not clear that anything has changed.

Ref: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/maga ... ashes.html

Beyond the numbers, a qualitative problem is becoming a concern, according to Jean-Michel Bigarre, head of global flight training at Airbus. “A looming pilot shortage is coupled with variation in the level of training worldwide,” he tells Aviation Week.

National authorities lack uniformity in pilot training regulation. Airbus safety experts also see “strange things in poor countries where air transport is growing very fast—suspiciously quick pilot qualification and fraudulent flight-hour accounting.”

Ref: https://aviationweek.com/commercial-avi ... ng-quality
Last edited by Revelation on Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:51 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
planecane wrote:
However, they apparently didn't understand how to perform the recovery procedure. It is a fact that they cut off the electric trim before getting back into trim. Had they finished trimming before moving the cutout switches, they would have recovered. Unless it turns out that there was something preventing the electric trim from trimming further nose up (which there isn't any evidence of in the preliminary report) there is no reason the ET crew shouldn't have recovered. Like you said, they recognized the runaway stabilizer.

ET302 pilots fully implemented the EAD procedure. That procedure was badly redacted and left open the possibility to use the manual trim wheels without any warning about the fact that there are not usable at high speed. You can't expect the pilots to understand something that is not written in the procedure. The fact that the trim wheels was not usable at high speed was not explain enough to the pilots. In addition that EAD procedure was never the subject of a training requirement, so you can't expect pilots to flawlessly implement it fast enough to fight the MCAS, especially with unusual workload and stress caused by multiple disagreement indications. As such scenario should not have passed the safety assessment. This is one of the issue that the safety agencies are working on.

After ET crash when FDR data published there was a period of radio silence. Nobody could understand anything. It wasn't Boeing who identified the problem, it was Bjorn from Leeham who pointed out possible blowback issue a few days later. Clearly, there was no understanding of published EAD by either pilot's or Boeing itself as requiring electric retrim before cutoff. Moreover, general notation - it is just a runaway - was precluding such retrim...
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:35 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Boeing is paying 144500 USD to the families of the dead.

https://news.sky.com/story/boeing-to-pa ... s-11818039


So 144,500 USD is the price of an Indonesian or Ethiopian fellow. How much would Boeing have offered for an American? I bet much more. Boeing response is a big joke.
Last edited by MrBren on Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jmry888
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:36 pm

My retired pilot friends in their opinions believe every couple of years the airlines should make it mandatory that the pilots that hold pilot in command status use a spare or removed from service aircraft and actually go fly it , up to into stall , including stall if possible. etc ,etc.

But my question was is there any regulatory body or rule or regulation that prohibits an airline from doing the above training ?

kalvado said-
More hands flying with pax in easy conditions will give 9nly that much effect. Same as with hours buildup in US - feel good, little effect. Doing so in more difficult environment will lead to accidents.
Sim training may have some positive effect, but return of investment is diminishing for a pretty expensive training. Big question is what you're going to train for. Some most challenging common situations are trained for, going down the list again means diminishing returns.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:49 pm

MrBren wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Boeing is paying 144500 USD to the families of the dead.

https://news.sky.com/story/boeing-to-pa ... s-11818039


So 144,500 USD is the price of an Indonesian or Ethiopian fellow. How much would Boeing have offered for an American? I bet much more. Boeing response is a big joke.


144.500 USD in Malaysian and Ethiopian currency represents 3 to 5 times more in the standard of living of these countries

You confirm?
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:10 pm

morrisond wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
FAA misled Congress on inspector training for Boeing 737 Max, investigators say

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html

quote:

Investigators examining a whistleblower complaint have concluded that safety inspectors who worked on training requirements for Boeing 737 Max pilots were themselves “underqualified” — and that the Federal Aviation Administration provided misleading information about the issue to Congress.

and

Boeing and the FAA have faced intense criticism for failing to make sure pilots had the information and training necessary to handle any problems with a new automated safety feature on the Max, known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS. Investigators say the feature, fed by faulty data from a sensor, repeatedly misfired, forcing the nose of both planes down before they crashed.

and

The Office of Audit and Evaluation reported in February that it had reviewed training records for all aviation safety inspectors assigned to an office in Seattle, where the Boeing 737 Max was evaluated, and in Long Beach, where questions about inspector training were first raised by the whistleblower concerning a separate Gulfstream aircraft.

The FAA auditors “found 16 of 22 (73%) have not completed the required formal training course. Worse yet, at least 11 of the 16 do not qualify to enroll in the course because they do not hold a Certified Flight Instructor certificate,” they wrote.


It seems to me that the responsibility of insufficient training for 737MAX pilots lies squarely at the feet of the FAA and Boeing.


I wouldn't disagree with that on differences training between the NG and MAX. However basic training and pilot skills is another matter - that is on the Home countries regulators and airlines.


No, that is also on the FAA and OEM. I agree that perhaps the many hours on a Cessna 172 are regulated by law in the USA, as unproductive they may be for flying a passenger airliner, but basic training and pilot skills are usually in regards to the requirements set by the OEM and, in this case of an USA designed and build airplane, by the FAA.
I the same way there are set up the requirements for moving from the NG to the MAX, there are also requirements in regards to moving to the NG.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:20 pm

MrBren wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Boeing is paying 144500 USD to the families of the dead.

https://news.sky.com/story/boeing-to-pa ... s-11818039


So 144,500 USD is the price of an Indonesian or Ethiopian fellow. How much would Boeing have offered for an American? I bet much more. Boeing response is a big joke.


Easy there chief. This is just step 1 in a multiyear compensation process. This is the voluntary payout with no strings attached. Next will come the criminal and/or civil litigation which will undoubtedly be settled out of court in the next 5 years, I bet less than 2 with Boeing wanting to move on as quickly as possible. Say what you will about the American legal system or Boeing vs. Airbus, NOTHING beats American-style payouts for criminal or accidental death where a manufacturer is assigned blame. We own the Gold on that one. The final cost will be in the billions, whether it's 2, 5 or 10 is the question.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:27 pm

kalvado wrote:
Clearly, there was no understanding of published EAD by either pilot's or Boeing itself as requiring electric retrim before cutoff.

Seem to be fully supported by the last news "FAA misled Congress on inspector training for Boeing 737 Max, investigators say" posted #4107
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:47 pm

jmry888 wrote:
My retired pilot friends in their opinions believe every couple of years the airlines should make it mandatory that the pilots that hold pilot in command status use a spare or removed from service aircraft and actually go fly it , up to into stall , including stall if possible. etc ,etc.

But my question was is there any regulatory body or rule or regulation that prohibits an airline from doing the above training ?

kalvado said-
More hands flying with pax in easy conditions will give 9nly that much effect. Same as with hours buildup in US - feel good, little effect. Doing so in more difficult environment will lead to accidents.
Sim training may have some positive effect, but return of investment is diminishing for a pretty expensive training. Big question is what you're going to train for. Some most challenging common situations are trained for, going down the list again means diminishing returns.

200 hour pilot with little experience other than setting up and turning on automation feels bad, thus calls from FAA, Airbus and others to change things.

Rules do not prohibit more training, airline accounting bean counters do.

They won't spend on training unless regulations leave no choice and they have no option to bribe.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:51 pm

jmry888 wrote:
My retired pilot friends in their opinions believe every couple of years the airlines should make it mandatory that the pilots that hold pilot in command status use a spare or removed from service aircraft and actually go fly it , up to into stall , including stall if possible. etc ,etc.


https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19611204-0
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19640715-0

both crashes in scope of "getting some real hands on flying experience"

In today's environment any airline would lose in the market if
they produced an "incident" from "lets do some risky flying to get a feel for the thing".
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:51 pm

morrisond wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
FAA misled Congress on inspector training for Boeing 737 Max, investigators say

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html

quote:

Investigators examining a whistleblower complaint have concluded that safety inspectors who worked on training requirements for Boeing 737 Max pilots were themselves “underqualified” — and that the Federal Aviation Administration provided misleading information about the issue to Congress.

and

Boeing and the FAA have faced intense criticism for failing to make sure pilots had the information and training necessary to handle any problems with a new automated safety feature on the Max, known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS. Investigators say the feature, fed by faulty data from a sensor, repeatedly misfired, forcing the nose of both planes down before they crashed.

and

The Office of Audit and Evaluation reported in February that it had reviewed training records for all aviation safety inspectors assigned to an office in Seattle, where the Boeing 737 Max was evaluated, and in Long Beach, where questions about inspector training were first raised by the whistleblower concerning a separate Gulfstream aircraft.

The FAA auditors “found 16 of 22 (73%) have not completed the required formal training course. Worse yet, at least 11 of the 16 do not qualify to enroll in the course because they do not hold a Certified Flight Instructor certificate,” they wrote.


It seems to me that the responsibility of insufficient training for 737MAX pilots lies squarely at the feet of the FAA and Boeing.


I wouldn't disagree with that on differences training between the NG and MAX. However basic training and pilot skills is another matter - that is on the Home countries regulators and airlines.

The probe was specifically about the 737-8/9 MAX and crashes in situation that required way more than basic training and pilots skills to survive an EAD procedure badly redacted by a safety team where about the 3/4 didn't have the required training to do there jobs.

The epic of this drama is that the hot "training" issue debated since so many months here was in reality not where many where looking at. :crackup:
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:56 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Since when does less thrust helps with pitch control again? I'd love it if you refreshed my memory on those basic pilot skills you keep talking about since, last I was in flight school, reducing thrust in a conventional jet induced a pitch down moment...


When you're going fast enough for the control surfaces to lose effectiveness (and thrust-induced pitch to be minor to none). What flight school did you go to?

Also, we need to dispel the myth that the ET pilots were struggling with pitch, somehow justifying an overspeed condition (it never is justified). Their climb rate wasn't far off from a normal rate - it was solidly positive - and there wasn't an obstacle in front of them they needed to clear. There was no need to fly at takeoff thrust, and it was an elementary, grave mistake.

PixelFlight wrote:
ET302 pilots fully implemented the EAD procedure. That procedure was badly redacted and left open the possibility to use the manual trim wheels without any warning about the fact that there are not usable at high speed. You can't expect the pilots to understand something that is not written in the procedure. The fact that the trim wheels was not usable at high speed was not explain enough to the pilots. In addition that EAD procedure was never the subject of a training requirement, so you can't expect pilots to flawlessly implement it fast enough to fight the MCAS, especially with unusual workload and stress caused by multiple disagreement indications. As such scenario should not have passed the safety assessment. This is one of the issue that the safety agencies are working on.


You keep stating "fully implemented" as fact when it's not known to be so. We don't know how usable or unusable the manual trim wheels were as we don't positively know if the ET crew ever used them properly (the facts point strongly to no). And don't forget, it took elementary mistakes to get to the point of high speed where control surfaces lose effectiveness and may make the trim difficult or impossible to move. So saying that they fully implemented a procedure that's potentially ineffective or impossible to complete due to prior mistakes is misleading at best. I strongly believe the EAD was written with everything the pilots needed. Your claim that it was "badly redacted" is not a proper use of the term "redacted". "Incomplete" can be your opinion.

Yes, you can expect pilots to understand things not expressly written. Piloting isn't just looking at a recipe book that starts with turning the oven on. If you believe something like "hint: don't overspeed" needs to be written in an EAD, then the level of piloting you're willing to accept makes me wonder why have pilots in the cockpit at all. The evidence shows they didn't know/trust how to manually fly their airplane. It's a scary thought.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:57 pm

Revelation wrote:
jmry888 wrote:
So where is it written that the airlines themselves cannot do more training like hands on flying and sim time. They have to be told by a regulatory body to do it ? They are not allowed to be proactive and do that with out being told to do it ? Just asking because i don't know the answer.

These are the same companies that happily charge you $$$ to reserve a seat in advance, book aisle/window seats, sell 28" seat pitch by default, offer telephone box sized loos, etc.

We are finding many airlines don't do anything beyond the minimum level specified by law, even though the minimums were supposed to be guidelines for worst case acceptable behaviors.

Heck, it should be clear by now to everyone that in some cases simply bribing the regulator is standard practice, and since that is cheaper for the airlines and for pilot candidates, that's how it often happens.

This year, two New York Times reporters, Hannah Beech and Muktita Suhartono, spoke to a former investigator who said that after a previous Lion Air accident, an airline employee tried to hand over a black garbage bag full of cash. The surprise was that the investigator did not accept it. Beech and Suhartono wrote: “Such payments from Lion Air were common because transportation-safety officials were poorly paid, former investigators said. A former high-level Lion Air employee confirmed that when he worked at the company, clandestine payments to government investigators, even for restaurants and prostitutes, were routine.” I admired the reporters’ restraint in their use of the past tense. It is not clear that anything has changed.

Ref: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/maga ... ashes.html

Beyond the numbers, a qualitative problem is becoming a concern, according to Jean-Michel Bigarre, head of global flight training at Airbus. “A looming pilot shortage is coupled with variation in the level of training worldwide,” he tells Aviation Week.

National authorities lack uniformity in pilot training regulation. Airbus safety experts also see “strange things in poor countries where air transport is growing very fast—suspiciously quick pilot qualification and fraudulent flight-hour accounting.”

Ref: https://aviationweek.com/commercial-avi ... ng-quality


Well at least we know Ethiopian probably aren't one of the airlines doing the bare minimum since they were one of the first in the world to be getting hold of the MAX simulator. Although it wasn't even a real MAX simulator was it a Boeing apparently thought they could just leave bits out?

I don't understand why the same point has to be made again and again and again regarding pilot competence. It' so dull. We get what someone thinks. Especially since we know US pilots went into the sim after the crash, knowing what was coming, and still crashed it.

The point has been made, But the world's aviation authorities have decided this plane was not airworthy as it was, and additional training is not enough to make it airworthy, and is not really relevant to the ungrounding. Boeing produced a plane that put impossible demands on pilots. Yes, training can always be improved, but the constant implied maligning of these guys, who were set up for their own deaths by Boeing, I find deeply distasteful. We don't even know if their training had anything whatsoever to do with it, so the repeated assertions are just speculation.

It might be better if people just stopped responding to one particular poster and this thread will become a lot more readable. Don't feed em!
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:57 pm

It would be a waste of anyone’s time to report every post on here which is about pilots and not about the grounding. So, maybe we could all exercise a little more self-awareness? How about this? If you type the word pilot, then you should look more carefully at your post, and consider if maybe it belongs here instead: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1431655

In a thread about an aircraft being grounded, there’s still an awful lot of discussion about pilot va Being fault distribution. If I am not wrong, the only posts here should be either technical news re the 737 systems, or ungrounding news.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:02 pm

aerolimani wrote:
It would be a waste of anyone’s time to report every post on here which is about pilots and not about the grounding. So, maybe we could all exercise a little more self-awareness? How about this? If you type the word pilot, then you should look more carefully at your post, and consider if maybe it belongs here instead: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1431655

In a thread about an aircraft being grounded, there’s still an awful lot of discussion about pilot va Being fault distribution. If I am not wrong, the only posts here should be either technical news re the 737 systems, or ungrounding news.


The grounding involved not just "technical issues," but pilot training issues, especially in areas which are less developed. You can't honestly separate the issues nor should they be separated.

The grounding will be lifted with concurrent directions regarding pilot training/updating. Many pilots feel they could have handled the runaway trim issue without too much trouble but given the multiple warnings from different systems and the fact not all pilots have the same skill level, this fact is not true worldwide.

This aircraft is mass marketed and intended to be used in areas of high development and low. That means the systems and training needs to account for varying levels of skill because not every pilot was trained in their country's military and comes to an airline with 3,000+ hours of experience in highly technical aircraft.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:17 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
Many pilots feel they could have handled the runaway trim issue without too much trouble but given the multiple warnings from different systems and the fact not all pilots have the same skill level, this fact is not true worldwide.

Frankly speaking, I would take pilots' comments with a big chunk of salt. We're talking about a group which gets a pretty specific type of training, often coupled with little education, strong sense of self-dependence (which is actually justified in flight as there is little help available in case of a problem) which leads to seemingly lacking appreciation to all the support taking place on the ground. There were quite a few instances on this board that pilots, confronted by statistical evidence of an existing problem, start calling for more airmanship as the only feasible solution.
I wouldn't be surprized if the same people would be equally helpless in MCAS runaway situation as Lion and ET crews were....
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:18 pm

It's the 24th. Supposedly the fix is supposed to be submitted for approval? Are we expecting to hear something in the next couple of days?
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:28 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
It would be a waste of anyone’s time to report every post on here which is about pilots and not about the grounding. So, maybe we could all exercise a little more self-awareness? How about this? If you type the word pilot, then you should look more carefully at your post, and consider if maybe it belongs here instead: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1431655

In a thread about an aircraft being grounded, there’s still an awful lot of discussion about pilot va Being fault distribution. If I am not wrong, the only posts here should be either technical news re the 737 systems, or ungrounding news.


The grounding involved not just "technical issues," but pilot training issues, especially in areas which are less developed. You can't honestly separate the issues nor should they be separated.

The grounding will be lifted with concurrent directions regarding pilot training/updating. Many pilots feel they could have handled the runaway trim issue without too much trouble but given the multiple warnings from different systems and the fact not all pilots have the same skill level, this fact is not true worldwide.

This aircraft is mass marketed and intended to be used in areas of high development and low. That means the systems and training needs to account for varying levels of skill because not every pilot was trained in their country's military and comes to an airline with 3,000+ hours of experience in highly technical aircraft.

I see your point, and I don’t disagree. You’ve actually changed my mind.

However, it seems like the vast majority of the discussion is about fault. That seems to be related more to the accidents themselves, than to the grounding. What is actually strange is that a moderator has encouraged the pilot training discussion to head off to the thread I mentioned, over in tech/ops. Whereas, the blame discussion continues unabated here in the grounding thread.

In advance of the impending accident reports, I’ve suggested to the moderators that an accident fault discussion could be moved to a new thread.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:50 pm

aerolimani wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
It would be a waste of anyone’s time to report every post on here which is about pilots and not about the grounding. So, maybe we could all exercise a little more self-awareness? How about this? If you type the word pilot, then you should look more carefully at your post, and consider if maybe it belongs here instead: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1431655

In a thread about an aircraft being grounded, there’s still an awful lot of discussion about pilot va Being fault distribution. If I am not wrong, the only posts here should be either technical news re the 737 systems, or ungrounding news.


The grounding involved not just "technical issues," but pilot training issues, especially in areas which are less developed. You can't honestly separate the issues nor should they be separated.

The grounding will be lifted with concurrent directions regarding pilot training/updating. Many pilots feel they could have handled the runaway trim issue without too much trouble but given the multiple warnings from different systems and the fact not all pilots have the same skill level, this fact is not true worldwide.

This aircraft is mass marketed and intended to be used in areas of high development and low. That means the systems and training needs to account for varying levels of skill because not every pilot was trained in their country's military and comes to an airline with 3,000+ hours of experience in highly technical aircraft.

I see your point, and I don’t disagree. You’ve actually changed my mind.

However, it seems like the vast majority of the discussion is about fault. That seems to be related more to the accidents themselves, than to the grounding. What is actually strange is that a moderator has encouraged the pilot training discussion to head off to the thread I mentioned, over in tech/ops. Whereas, the blame discussion continues unabated here in the grounding thread.

In advance of the impending accident reports, I’ve suggested to the moderators that an accident fault discussion could be moved to a new thread.

The accident threads are still open. It is the posters who decided to put everything on this thread instead of using those.

Ray
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:55 pm

kalvado wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:
Many pilots feel they could have handled the runaway trim issue without too much trouble but given the multiple warnings from different systems and the fact not all pilots have the same skill level, this fact is not true worldwide.

Frankly speaking, I would take pilots' comments with a big chunk of salt. We're talking about a group which gets a pretty specific type of training, often coupled with little education, strong sense of self-dependence (which is actually justified in flight as there is little help available in case of a problem) which leads to seemingly lacking appreciation to all the support taking place on the ground. There were quite a few instances on this board that pilots, confronted by statistical evidence of an existing problem, start calling for more airmanship as the only feasible solution.
I wouldn't be surprized if the same people would be equally helpless in MCAS runaway situation as Lion and ET crews were....

Now I am confused, are you now advocating that training is an issue and should be addressed, but not as it relates to the two crashes because one would be placing blame away from Boeing?
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:57 pm

starrion wrote:
It's the 24th. Supposedly the fix is supposed to be submitted for approval? Are we expecting to hear something in the next couple of days?

We have 6 days to go until end September 2019, so if by midnight Pacific coast time on Monday 30th Sep 2019 the fix has not been submitted, Boeing will have missed their own deadline and we should expect an update.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:58 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:

The grounding involved not just "technical issues," but pilot training issues, especially in areas which are less developed. You can't honestly separate the issues nor should they be separated.

The grounding will be lifted with concurrent directions regarding pilot training/updating. Many pilots feel they could have handled the runaway trim issue without too much trouble but given the multiple warnings from different systems and the fact not all pilots have the same skill level, this fact is not true worldwide.

This aircraft is mass marketed and intended to be used in areas of high development and low. That means the systems and training needs to account for varying levels of skill because not every pilot was trained in their country's military and comes to an airline with 3,000+ hours of experience in highly technical aircraft.

I see your point, and I don’t disagree. You’ve actually changed my mind.

However, it seems like the vast majority of the discussion is about fault. That seems to be related more to the accidents themselves, than to the grounding. What is actually strange is that a moderator has encouraged the pilot training discussion to head off to the thread I mentioned, over in tech/ops. Whereas, the blame discussion continues unabated here in the grounding thread.

In advance of the impending accident reports, I’ve suggested to the moderators that an accident fault discussion could be moved to a new thread.

The accident threads are still open. It is the posters who decided to put everything on this thread instead of using those.

Ray

Woah! You’re so correct. It’s been so long since I received a notification from them, I thought they’d been rolled into this thread. Certainly, half the discussion here would lead one to believe that had happened.

Searching for them on my phone is an exercise in torture. If you have the links, would you mind posting them as a refresher for folks here?
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:01 pm

aerolimani wrote:
Woah! You’re so correct. It’s been so long since I received a notification from them, I thought they’d been rolled into this thread. Certainly, half the discussion here would lead one to believe that had happened.

Searching for them on my phone is an exercise in torture. If you have the links, would you mind posting them as a refresher for folks here?


Lion AIr: viewtopic.php?t=1407217

Ethiopian AIrlines: viewtopic.php?t=1417519
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:02 pm

https://www.easa.europa.eu/flight-crew- ... g-paradigm

UPRT training is becoming mandatory.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:03 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
It would be a waste of anyone’s time to report every post on here which is about pilots and not about the grounding. So, maybe we could all exercise a little more self-awareness? How about this? If you type the word pilot, then you should look more carefully at your post, and consider if maybe it belongs here instead: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1431655

In a thread about an aircraft being grounded, there’s still an awful lot of discussion about pilot va Being fault distribution. If I am not wrong, the only posts here should be either technical news re the 737 systems, or ungrounding news.


The grounding involved not just "technical issues," but pilot training issues, especially in areas which are less developed. You can't honestly separate the issues nor should they be separated.

The grounding will be lifted with concurrent directions regarding pilot training/updating. Many pilots feel they could have handled the runaway trim issue without too much trouble but given the multiple warnings from different systems and the fact not all pilots have the same skill level, this fact is not true worldwide.

This aircraft is mass marketed and intended to be used in areas of high development and low. That means the systems and training needs to account for varying levels of skill because not every pilot was trained in their country's military and comes to an airline with 3,000+ hours of experience in highly technical aircraft.


I wouldn't place too much weight on pilots who 'feel' they could have handled it without much trouble. Without having been in the exact same situation themselves their feelings are baseless, and we know pilots aren't always the most humble of people (not necessarily a bad thing, a high degree of confidence is a good thing in this job, but there is a fine line..). We know what happened in the sim tests after the crash, which should make people a little perhaps a little less complacen about their abilities, and perhaps cause them to think twice before repeatedly banging on about lacking training in 'other' parts of the world.
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:03 pm

quote="SonomaFlyer":
The grounding involved not just "technical issues," but pilot training issues, especially in areas which are less developed. You can't honestly separate the issues nor should they be separated.


The grounding absolutely only happened due to technical issues. Traditionally there were a lot of crashes that revealed training issues indeed, which as a consequence did not cause aircraft groundings. But the MAX per Boeing's own definition was to be flown with the same training as the NG. So as the NG has a splendid safety record and the MAX the worst since many decades, the issue regarding the grounding very obviously are not the pilots but the aircraft (design).

Would the MAX be as fault tolerant, as the NG is and as we can expect from an aircraft design from the first world, there would be no crashes, no dead people, no grounding and no discussion about pilot errors. But the MAX is not. It failed spectacularly to comply with Boeings own mantra "What you see is what you get".

As the Boeing cheering crowd (you know the people, who "agree" that Boeing failed badly but then continue to post about anything else during 99% of their airtime) is entertaining an overwhelming effort in fingerpointing against the dead third world pilots, I would raise the question how bad were the first world managers and engineers trained at Boeing, who developed this death trap (my definition of a death trap: a system that exercised greater persistence to kill some hundreds people than the overwhelmed pilots were able hold against it)?
Last edited by rheinwaldner on Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
Planetalk
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:05 pm

aerolimani wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
It would be a waste of anyone’s time to report every post on here which is about pilots and not about the grounding. So, maybe we could all exercise a little more self-awareness? How about this? If you type the word pilot, then you should look more carefully at your post, and consider if maybe it belongs here instead: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1431655

In a thread about an aircraft being grounded, there’s still an awful lot of discussion about pilot va Being fault distribution. If I am not wrong, the only posts here should be either technical news re the 737 systems, or ungrounding news.


The grounding involved not just "technical issues," but pilot training issues, especially in areas which are less developed. You can't honestly separate the issues nor should they be separated.

The grounding will be lifted with concurrent directions regarding pilot training/updating. Many pilots feel they could have handled the runaway trim issue without too much trouble but given the multiple warnings from different systems and the fact not all pilots have the same skill level, this fact is not true worldwide.

This aircraft is mass marketed and intended to be used in areas of high development and low. That means the systems and training needs to account for varying levels of skill because not every pilot was trained in their country's military and comes to an airline with 3,000+ hours of experience in highly technical aircraft.

I see your point, and I don’t disagree. You’ve actually changed my mind.

However, it seems like the vast majority of the discussion is about fault. That seems to be related more to the accidents themselves, than to the grounding. What is actually strange is that a moderator has encouraged the pilot training discussion to head off to the thread I mentioned, over in tech/ops. Whereas, the blame discussion continues unabated here in the grounding thread.

In advance of the impending accident reports, I’ve suggested to the moderators that an accident fault discussion could be moved to a new thread.


The simplest way is if people just ignore/block those posts that add nothing to the discussion and clutter up the thread. They'll soon go away.
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:16 pm

kalvado wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:
Many pilots feel they could have handled the runaway trim issue without too much trouble but given the multiple warnings from different systems and the fact not all pilots have the same skill level, this fact is not true worldwide.

Frankly speaking, I would take pilots' comments with a big chunk of salt. We're talking about a group which gets a pretty specific type of training, often coupled with little education, strong sense of self-dependence (which is actually justified in flight as there is little help available in case of a problem) which leads to seemingly lacking appreciation to all the support taking place on the ground. There were quite a few instances on this board that pilots, confronted by statistical evidence of an existing problem, start calling for more airmanship as the only feasible solution.
I wouldn't be surprized if the same people would be equally helpless in MCAS runaway situation as Lion and ET crews were....

Its the nature of the beast, not necessarily a bad thing. In a world where 80% of incidents are put down to pilot error, most pilots will still be convinced it would never have happened to them. We have part time Cessna pilots who appear convinced they would have done better in our crash scenarios.

Case in point is the NYT article author whilst skilfully writing a piece (ignoring the significant errors and omissions) that is primarily a vitriolic character assignation of the pilots and thinly veiled attack on 'foreigners', fills it out by proudly admitting to flying known non-airworthy aircraft on many occasions and expressing a lack of surprise when a collegue dies doing precisely the same thing. Don't think this was in Indonesia or Ethiopia?

Ray
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14002
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:20 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
Well it didn't take long for EASA's Patrick Ky to capitulate to the pressure..

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... x-s-future


It seems Boeing has been pressuring congress to make the FAA more cooperative, using Boeing expertise, in 2012 Reauthorization and 2017,
https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/319723-boeing-urges-congress-to-streamline-aircraft-certification-process

The use of designees has been a part of the fabric of global aviation for decades. Congress specifically directed the FAA to make full use of delegation authority in the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2018.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/


Industry did heavy lobbying to congress to force the FAA into "streamlining" certification. Flagwaving, FUD :

Our global competitors are gaining ground and our regulatory burdens must be reformed if we are to maintain a leadership position.
Furthermore, U.S. aircraft manufacturers and suppliers need a stable and well-understood regulatory
environment if we are to plan, hire and invest effectively – and with confi dence – for the future. We strongly
urge Congress to enact FAA certifi cation streamlining reforms before the end of 2017.
http://www.aia-aerospace.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/AIA_SMC_Letter_Sept2017_v3.pdf

A next step was to have the FAA motivate foreign authorities (EASA) into just validating what the FAA approved. Even very recently Boeing tried to pressure "foreign" authorities to just validate the FAA following procedures and not waste any time having a look at the actual aircraft certification.

John Hamilton, vice president of engineering for Boeing's commercial airplanes, told lawmakers on Wednesday that getting FAA-certified airplanes validated with foreign aviation authorities should “be quick and efficient” but can sometimes take as long as 14 months.

Boeing continues to be the country’s largest exporter, exporting $56.8 billion worth of products and services in 2015.

"This process is not meant to be a re-certification.” Hamilton said during a House Transportation and Infrastructure subcommittee hearing. “A validation should be just that — validating that the FAA conducted the type certificate work to the standards of the foreign regulatory authority in question.”

https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/319723-boeing-urges-congress-to-streamline-aircraft-certification-process

Google has a stronger memory than some of the people howling with the wolves now.

- Politics and efficiency killed safety & US Congress was into it over their necks. They must feel used now.
- It seems safety has been number 2 or 3 on the priority list for some time.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:39 pm

Revelation wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
First you say, "we have no way of knowing of either are involved" then you suddenly know "that there is no involvement". Changing the opinion as it suits your narrative?

First part is fact.

Second part was prefaced by "My $0.02" thus opinion.

But thanks for the gratuitous attack.

You seem to have a lot invested in the idea that media outlets are being corrupted by PR firms without offering any form of evidence.

Care to offer some?

You do know this kind of accusation without proof does comes across as shooting the messenger, right?

Why? I also have put a "My $0.02"-label on my statements.

B.t.w. who do you mean with messenger when I discuss the mechanisms and the probability of corporations controlling the media?
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
Chemist
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:49 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
planecane wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
The absolute raw fact is that ET302 pilots did recognize the failure as a runaway trim stabilizer. But this was not enough to survive.

However, they apparently didn't understand how to perform the recovery procedure. It is a fact that they cut off the electric trim before getting back into trim. Had they finished trimming before moving the cutout switches, they would have recovered. Unless it turns out that there was something preventing the electric trim from trimming further nose up (which there isn't any evidence of in the preliminary report) there is no reason the ET crew shouldn't have recovered. Like you said, they recognized the runaway stabilizer.


The procedure does not include electric trimming before cutting the switches. It is an addendum to the procedure where it is mentioned to first use the electrical trim to trim the frame. Nowhere is a clear statement, that you will not be able to use the manual trim system all over the flight envelope.


Were they in the flight envelope, or overspeed?
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1026
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:02 pm

seahawk wrote:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/flight-crew-licensing-update-easas-pilot-training-paradigm

UPRT training is becoming mandatory.


"Upset and Prevention Recovery Training
UPRT - EASA is supporting the implementation of the UPRT requirements introduced by Regulation (EU) 2018/1974 (amending Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011) through briefing sessions, information session and WebEx in a selection of CAAs."

Regulation (EU) 2018/1974:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32018R1974
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:36 pm

keesje wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
Well it didn't take long for EASA's Patrick Ky to capitulate to the pressure..

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... x-s-future


It seems Boeing has been pressuring congress to make the FAA more cooperative, using Boeing expertise, in 2012 Reauthorization and 2017,
https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/319723-boeing-urges-congress-to-streamline-aircraft-certification-process

The use of designees has been a part of the fabric of global aviation for decades. Congress specifically directed the FAA to make full use of delegation authority in the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2018.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/


Industry did heavy lobbying to congress to force the FAA into "streamlining" certification. Flagwaving, FUD :

Our global competitors are gaining ground and our regulatory burdens must be reformed if we are to maintain a leadership position.
Furthermore, U.S. aircraft manufacturers and suppliers need a stable and well-understood regulatory
environment if we are to plan, hire and invest effectively – and with confi dence – for the future. We strongly
urge Congress to enact FAA certifi cation streamlining reforms before the end of 2017.
http://www.aia-aerospace.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/AIA_SMC_Letter_Sept2017_v3.pdf

A next step was to have the FAA motivate foreign authorities (EASA) into just validating what the FAA approved. Even very recently Boeing tried to pressure "foreign" authorities to just validate the FAA following procedures and not waste any time having a look at the actual aircraft certification.

John Hamilton, vice president of engineering for Boeing's commercial airplanes, told lawmakers on Wednesday that getting FAA-certified airplanes validated with foreign aviation authorities should “be quick and efficient” but can sometimes take as long as 14 months.

Boeing continues to be the country’s largest exporter, exporting $56.8 billion worth of products and services in 2015.

"This process is not meant to be a re-certification.” Hamilton said during a House Transportation and Infrastructure subcommittee hearing. “A validation should be just that — validating that the FAA conducted the type certificate work to the standards of the foreign regulatory authority in question.”

https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/319723-boeing-urges-congress-to-streamline-aircraft-certification-process

Google has a stronger memory than some of the people howling with the wolves now.

- Politics and efficiency killed safety & US Congress was into it over their necks. They must feel used now.
- It seems safety has been number 2 or 3 on the priority list for some time.


Those of us in the industry know full well how valuable the current designee system is. Having the people who are in charge of the certification of the end product available on your team from day one as a subject matter expert (SME) through the entire program is incalculable. People who denigrate the system simply don't understand it.

In other news, it seems the IATA favors a quicker resolution to the grounding: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/24/airline ... eturn.html

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