• 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 74
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:38 pm

seahawk wrote:
Probably yes, but we do not know the consequences of the using 2 sensors, it opens a lot of new questions.

For example you suddenly create a connection between the ADIRU of the pilot and that of the co-pilot, those system are totally independent at the moment. You know need to connect ADMs to both ADIRUS, which then begs the question if a failure in any of those components could fry all connected components. Ist the ADIRU able to handle data from 3 ADMs and not only 2, etc.

According to Satcom Guru each FCC already have connection from each ADIRU making it able to get the other side AoA value. https://www.satcom.guru/2018/11/737-fcc ... mmand.html
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3766
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:10 pm

hivue wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
If you hit a strong microburst in a bad weather approach you might be toast without MACS. Imagine you are on approach, before flaps are down at around 5000ft agl and you are hit by a strong microburst. Autopilot is immediately off and when you realized what happened you are 3500ft agl descending. You pull on the joke as well as trim ANU as much as you can to avoid terrain. AoA increases and MCAS activates. MCAS prevents a stall but also reduces the effectivity of your manoeuvre to avoid terrain


It appears that the myth that MCAS is a stall prevention system persists. It was not a stall prevention system in MCAS 0.0 and 1.0, and will not be a stall prevention system in MCAS 2.0. MCAS is there to provide proper stick forces when the situation -- and the certification requirements -- require some augmentation for that.


MCAS will not prevent stall, one can still stall the plane with active MCAS. But MCAS will help/assist and prevent the crew from pulling the plane into a stall. So MCAS does play a role in preventing stall (under certain flight conditions). Does that make it a stall prevention system? It's a fine line . . .
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1145
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:20 pm

PW100 wrote:
hivue wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
If you hit a strong microburst in a bad weather approach you might be toast without MACS. Imagine you are on approach, before flaps are down at around 5000ft agl and you are hit by a strong microburst. Autopilot is immediately off and when you realized what happened you are 3500ft agl descending. You pull on the joke as well as trim ANU as much as you can to avoid terrain. AoA increases and MCAS activates. MCAS prevents a stall but also reduces the effectivity of your manoeuvre to avoid terrain


It appears that the myth that MCAS is a stall prevention system persists. It was not a stall prevention system in MCAS 0.0 and 1.0, and will not be a stall prevention system in MCAS 2.0. MCAS is there to provide proper stick forces when the situation -- and the certification requirements -- require some augmentation for that.


MCAS will not prevent stall, one can still stall the plane with active MCAS. But MCAS will help/assist and prevent the crew from pulling the plane into a stall. So MCAS does play a role in preventing stall (under certain flight conditions). Does that make it a stall prevention system? It's a fine line . . .

MCAS, or Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, is a perfectly accurate name. What is inaccurate is to say that it’s there to make the plane feel like an NG. It’s there to meet the FAR requirements. The NG also meets these requirements, but does not require MCAS.

As regards stalls, it would be better to say that MCAS has the benefit of being a stall discouragement system. Of course, it has that feature because that is the intention FAR requirements for which MCAS was implemented on the MAX.
 
sillystrings
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:37 pm

planecane wrote:
sillystrings wrote:
hivue wrote:

It appears that the myth that MCAS is a stall prevention system persists. It was not a stall prevention system in MCAS 0.0 and 1.0, and will not be a stall prevention system in MCAS 2.0. MCAS is there to provide proper stick forces when the situation -- and the certification requirements -- require some augmentation for that.



I don't know. To me this argument sounds like "the purpose of a wall switch is to provide current to the light bulb, not to turn the light on".

What exactly is the purpose of the stick force requirement then?


So that it does not become easier to reach stall attitude under certain high AoA conditions. It is somewhat semantics but there is a distinction. A stall prevention system would do something to prevent the pilot from being able to get to stall attitude. In the case of the 737 that would be something like not allowing the elevator to move past a certain point so that no matter what the pilot does it is impossible to stall.

Airbus FWB does this (at least in normal mode) where no matter what the pilot does, they can't stall the aircraft. That is a stall prevention system.

MCAS does not make it impossible to stall.


MCAS moves control surfaces, correct?

The purpose of this movement is to make it more difficult to enter stall, correct?

If you are arguing that it's not a very capable stall prevention system, I agree completely. However, since it's an active system that has authority over the plane's control surfaces, it is a stall prevention system. As opposed to, for example, a stick shaker, which is a stall warning system. The fact that it is not as capable as a FBW system is irrelevant, except it highlights the limitations of 737 design.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2526
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:42 pm

Well, if anyone wants to see pics of the Max's being stored at Boeing's facility in SAT,
I found this link on the Houston chronicle's website today;

https://www.chron.com/business/article/ ... o-17785994
 
hivue
Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:55 pm

sillystrings wrote:
I don't know. To me this argument sounds like "the purpose of a wall switch is to provide current to the light bulb, not to turn the light on".


That argument would be valid except for the fact there are real stall prevention systems -- systems that actually prevent the pilot from stalling the airplane. MCAS is not one of them.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3766
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:12 pm

hivue wrote:
sillystrings wrote:
I don't know. To me this argument sounds like "the purpose of a wall switch is to provide current to the light bulb, not to turn the light on".


That argument would be valid except for the fact there are real stall prevention systems -- systems that actually prevent the pilot from stalling the airplane. MCAS is not one of them.


Right. MCAS is the Mini-Me of Stall Protection . . .
Image
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
kalvado
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:24 pm

aerolimani wrote:
PW100 wrote:
hivue wrote:

It appears that the myth that MCAS is a stall prevention system persists. It was not a stall prevention system in MCAS 0.0 and 1.0, and will not be a stall prevention system in MCAS 2.0. MCAS is there to provide proper stick forces when the situation -- and the certification requirements -- require some augmentation for that.


MCAS will not prevent stall, one can still stall the plane with active MCAS. But MCAS will help/assist and prevent the crew from pulling the plane into a stall. So MCAS does play a role in preventing stall (under certain flight conditions). Does that make it a stall prevention system? It's a fine line . . .

MCAS, or Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, is a perfectly accurate name. What is inaccurate is to say that it’s there to make the plane feel like an NG. It’s there to meet the FAR requirements. The NG also meets these requirements, but does not require MCAS.

As regards stalls, it would be better to say that MCAS has the benefit of being a stall discouragement system. Of course, it has that feature because that is the intention FAR requirements for which MCAS was implemented on the MAX.

This reminds me discussion if what happened between Bill and Monica in Oral Office should be considered a sexual act. Well, it is not under the definition in that old and dusty book... For the rest of us, MCAS is still a stall prevention thing.
 
sillystrings
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:34 pm

kalvado wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
PW100 wrote:

MCAS will not prevent stall, one can still stall the plane with active MCAS. But MCAS will help/assist and prevent the crew from pulling the plane into a stall. So MCAS does play a role in preventing stall (under certain flight conditions). Does that make it a stall prevention system? It's a fine line . . .

MCAS, or Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, is a perfectly accurate name. What is inaccurate is to say that it’s there to make the plane feel like an NG. It’s there to meet the FAR requirements. The NG also meets these requirements, but does not require MCAS.

As regards stalls, it would be better to say that MCAS has the benefit of being a stall discouragement system. Of course, it has that feature because that is the intention FAR requirements for which MCAS was implemented on the MAX.

This reminds me discussion if what happened between Bill and Monica in Oral Office should be considered a sexual act. Well, it is not under the definition in that old and dusty book... For the rest of us, MCAS is still a stall prevention thing.


It's truly baffling to see all this pretzel twisting...
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:56 pm

I wonder how much Boeing will ask in compensation from Rockwell-Collins.
 
kalvado
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:07 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I wonder how much Boeing will ask in compensation from Rockwell-Collins.

A better question is how much would they get - and my bet is "much much less than they would ask"
 
IWMBH
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:22 am

kalvado wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I wonder how much Boeing will ask in compensation from Rockwell-Collins.

A better question is how much would they get - and my bet is "much much less than they would ask"


Boeing is the one who signed of on the flight tests so I guess Boeing is responsible for the fly ability of the aircraft. I would be surprised if they can - legally - ask for any compensation. Anyone an idea how things worked out with compensations with the rudder failures?
 
ubeema
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:03 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I wonder how much Boeing will ask in compensation from Rockwell-Collins.

I am lost. How Rockwell Collins wronged Boeing?
 
ubeema
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:06 am

kalvado wrote:
This reminds me discussion if what happened between Bill and Monica in Oral Office should be considered a sexual act. Well, it is not under the definition in that old and dusty book... For the rest of us, MCAS is still a stall prevention thing.

Freudian slip...you meant Oval Office? Or you being naughty ?
 
kalvado
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:11 am

ubeema wrote:
kalvado wrote:
This reminds me discussion if what happened between Bill and Monica in Oral Office should be considered a sexual act. Well, it is not under the definition in that old and dusty book... For the rest of us, MCAS is still a stall prevention thing.

Freudian slip...you meant Oval Office? Or you being naughty ?

I am being factual
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:27 am

ubeema wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I wonder how much Boeing will ask in compensation from Rockwell-Collins.

I am lost. How Rockwell Collins wronged Boeing?


They are responsible for the design of MCAS.
 
kalvado
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:53 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
ubeema wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I wonder how much Boeing will ask in compensation from Rockwell-Collins.

I am lost. How Rockwell Collins wronged Boeing?


They are responsible for the design of MCAS.

are they? I doubt R-C have aerodynamics experts on the project, as such they would have little say in defining control laws. I don't believe Boeing will be sharing intimate information about plane behavior, more likely just provide specs with "need to know" attached. and if those specs were followed, Boeing cannot get much more than "too bad, so sad.."
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:00 am

kalvado wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ubeema wrote:
I am lost. How Rockwell Collins wronged Boeing?


They are responsible for the design of MCAS.

are they? I doubt R-C have aerodynamics experts on the project, as such they would have little say in defining control laws. I don't believe Boeing will be sharing intimate information about plane behavior, more likely just provide specs with "need to know" attached. and if those specs were followed, Boeing cannot get much more than "too bad, so sad.."


So if Toyota had a dangerous cruise control issue with a module supplied by another vendor, you think Toyota should be the only one blamed?

I suppose you thought Parker-Hannifin was blameless as well.
 
kalvado
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:18 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
kalvado wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

They are responsible for the design of MCAS.

are they? I doubt R-C have aerodynamics experts on the project, as such they would have little say in defining control laws. I don't believe Boeing will be sharing intimate information about plane behavior, more likely just provide specs with "need to know" attached. and if those specs were followed, Boeing cannot get much more than "too bad, so sad.."


So if Toyota had a dangerous cruise control issue with a module supplied by another vendor, you think Toyota should be the only one blamed?

I suppose you thought Parker-Hannifin was blameless as well.

Project is divided between multiple companies, departments and people, each of them having their role.
Someone defines what FCC should do, someone converts that into laws and algorithms, someone codes them into C(or whatever they use), someone else tests resulting software. There is only that much overlap between different stages, and a coder can do only that much if aerodynamic engineer wrote "+" instead of "-".
I don't know who should be doing things like defining erroneous input response definition. I suspect that is still done on Boeing side of things.

That is why it is very important for the head company to define specs carefully, without assuming something is obvious to people down the line. Besides, there should be (and most likely there is) a contract defining roles of R-C and B in this case.
It is entirely possible R-C is totally blameless, and it is equally possible they carry a good share of responsibility. However, there was an assumption that pilots must recognize and correct certain conditions, and that assumption was certainly made by Boeing. It is not up to software folks to question those assumptions.
 
planecane
Posts: 1069
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:25 am

PW100 wrote:
hivue wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
If you hit a strong microburst in a bad weather approach you might be toast without MACS. Imagine you are on approach, before flaps are down at around 5000ft agl and you are hit by a strong microburst. Autopilot is immediately off and when you realized what happened you are 3500ft agl descending. You pull on the joke as well as trim ANU as much as you can to avoid terrain. AoA increases and MCAS activates. MCAS prevents a stall but also reduces the effectivity of your manoeuvre to avoid terrain


It appears that the myth that MCAS is a stall prevention system persists. It was not a stall prevention system in MCAS 0.0 and 1.0, and will not be a stall prevention system in MCAS 2.0. MCAS is there to provide proper stick forces when the situation -- and the certification requirements -- require some augmentation for that.


MCAS will not prevent stall, one can still stall the plane with active MCAS. But MCAS will help/assist and prevent the crew from pulling the plane into a stall. So MCAS does play a role in preventing stall (under certain flight conditions). Does that make it a stall prevention system? It's a fine line . . .


The line is that it doesn't make it more difficult than the FAA regulation to stall. It makes the MAX meet the specification. It does not "prevent a stall."

The 777 has a stall prevention system. The following quote is from a detailed description of the 777 FBW system:

At maximum backwards control column deflection, the aircraft will not fully stall as the PFCs will limit the deflection of the elevators to a value such as to not exceed the maximum angle of attack and fully stall the aircraft


MCAS does not do this. It will not add more nose down trim (when functioning properly) than necessary to maintain the stick force gradient at the current AoA and airspeed. If it was designed as a stall prevention system it would add enough nose down trim to make it impossible to increase the AoA using the elevator.
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1716
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:08 am

MSPNWA wrote:
sillystrings wrote:
The implication is quite clear. To state otherwise is simply gas-lighting.


Even "safe" airplanes crash with the airplane itself being a factor.

If the whole 737 family had have the crash rate of the MAX, every seventh 737 would have been destroyed in a crash (MAX: 2 crashed in 515k flight hours, whole 737 family in 2014: 264 millions flight hours -> would mean more than 1000 from 7700 crashed).

Do you consider that as "safe"? Every seventh 737 crashed and the aircraft contributing each time the same factor? That is not safe. That is so bad, that its beyond imagination and comparison.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1716
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:12 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I wonder how much Boeing will ask in compensation from Rockwell-Collins.

I wonder whether Boeing will compensate the airlines for the missed fuel burn delta. The business case of buying and operating the MAX is currently not working out for the airlines. They have a competitive disadvantage vs. the NEO operators.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
planecane
Posts: 1069
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:26 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I wonder how much Boeing will ask in compensation from Rockwell-Collins.

I wonder whether Boeing will compensate the airlines for the missed fuel burn delta. The business case of buying and operating the MAX is currently not working out for the airlines. They have a competitive disadvantage vs. the NEO operators.

You could argue they are saving fuel by cancelling all those flights! :-)
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8603
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:55 am

XRAYretired wrote:
seahawk wrote:
kalvado wrote:
False actuation malfunction probability is strongly reduced with 2 sensor approach, and severity of the outcome is limited with the single-shot actuation. I would say, proposed MCAS logic is as good as it can be with an existing set of hardware. Both false-actuation and false-non-actuation probabilities seem low enough.


Probably yes, but we do not know the consequences of the using 2 sensors, it opens a lot of new questions.

For example you suddenly create a connection between the ADIRU of the pilot and that of the co-pilot, those system are totally independent at the moment. You know need to connect ADMs to both ADIRUS, which then begs the question if a failure in any of those components could fry all connected components. Ist the ADIRU able to handle data from 3 ADMs and not only 2, etc.


You need to think data rather than wires. They already share data sources including each others outputs for some function checking.

Ray


That is true, but it still leaves a lot of questions. For example could one ADIRU still access the second sensor if the other is non-operational. There are certainly new failure modes to risk access and probably some additional info needed for the flight manual.

Add any additional problems encountered during test flights / sim flights.
 
oschkosch
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:59 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I wonder how much Boeing will ask in compensation from Rockwell-Collins.

I wonder whether Boeing will compensate the airlines for the missed fuel burn delta. The business case of buying and operating the MAX is currently not working out for the airlines. They have a competitive disadvantage vs. the NEO operators.
one could say that buying a plane with MCAS has a negative effect on the CASM....

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
 
Interested
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:24 am

MSPNWA wrote:
sillystrings wrote:
The implication is quite clear. To state otherwise is simply gas-lighting.


Even "safe" airplanes crash with the airplane itself being a factor. I'm guessing you made a conclusion first and are trying to find evidence to support it. That leads to distortions like this.

What you won't find is anything like "we have no blame", "we are not at fault", "we have nothing to do with the crashes", etc. But keep searching if you wish.


What you will find is an inexcusable attempt to avoid grounding even after the second crash

That's the real scary bit about Boeing's attitude to all of this.

These planes would still be flying whilst Boeing attempted their software fixes and patches if Boeing had their way

Thank God that they didn't get their way

I still find it incredible that knowing what they were already working on etc that they didn't immediately ground all their Max 737s themselves after the second crash

It shows the kind of desperate organisation they have become
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:45 am

Interested wrote:
It shows the kind of desperate organisation they have become


What qualifications do you have to make such a bold claim? And you don't get to be as old as Boeing by building a substandard product.
 
Interested
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:53 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Interested wrote:
It shows the kind of desperate organisation they have become


What qualifications do you have to make such a bold claim? And you don't get to be as old as Boeing by building a substandard product.


Qualifications??

I'm just a normal member of the public dumbfounded that an organisation that I always imagined I could trust entirely could have done what they have done

The more I read about them and follow this situation the more I shake my head.

What qualifications do I need to find it inexcusable that they didn't voluntarily ground their planes after the second crash?

They've shown themselves to be untrustworthy in their present form

I'm sure previous versions of Boeing were far more trustworthy. That can't excuse what Boeing have become.
 
Interested
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:55 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Interested wrote:
It shows the kind of desperate organisation they have become


What qualifications do you have to make such a bold claim? And you don't get to be as old as Boeing by building a substandard product.


I'm sure the old Boeing are embarrassed and ashamed by what the new Boeing have become
 
User avatar
MrBren
Posts: 251
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:44 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:59 am

I have read somewhere that the plane won't fly before H2 2020. Is this true?
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 553
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:09 am

planecane wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I wonder how much Boeing will ask in compensation from Rockwell-Collins.

I wonder whether Boeing will compensate the airlines for the missed fuel burn delta. The business case of buying and operating the MAX is currently not working out for the airlines. They have a competitive disadvantage vs. the NEO operators.

You could argue they are saving fuel by cancelling all those flights! :-)

If they hedged their fuel futures they could sell them back at a profit and Boeing could ask for a cut!!

Ray
 
yabeweb
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:41 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:15 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
kalvado wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

They are responsible for the design of MCAS.

are they? I doubt R-C have aerodynamics experts on the project, as such they would have little say in defining control laws. I don't believe Boeing will be sharing intimate information about plane behavior, more likely just provide specs with "need to know" attached. and if those specs were followed, Boeing cannot get much more than "too bad, so sad.."


So if Toyota had a dangerous cruise control issue with a module supplied by another vendor, you think Toyota should be the only one blamed?

I suppose you thought Parker-Hannifin was blameless as well.

If Toyota buys from X vendor, they have to be sure that the part they buy are within specs and tested, if they failed to do so, they are the one to blame.

Outsurcing does not mean "you do what you want and i'll plug it in in blindlessly my product ", the thing i sell has MY name on it, I have to be sure it is at least safe!
 
Interested
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:27 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
ubeema wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I wonder how much Boeing will ask in compensation from Rockwell-Collins.

I am lost. How Rockwell Collins wronged Boeing?


They are responsible for the design of MCAS.


Do you understand how business works in the real world?

Everything that goes into a Boeing branded plane is Boeing's responsibility

Stop trying to deflect blame

Last month it was all the pilots fault. Now it's the subcontractors

Lol
 
oschkosch
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:21 am

Interested wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ubeema wrote:
I am lost. How Rockwell Collins wronged Boeing?


They are responsible for the design of MCAS.


Do you understand how business works in the real world?

Everything that goes into a Boeing branded plane is Boeing's responsibility

Stop trying to deflect blame

Last month it was all the pilots fault. Now it's the subcontractors

Lol
I see the hardcore fanboys blaming the passengers soon.... i.e. nobody forced them to fly a Boeing, how dare their families receive compensation.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 553
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:29 am

I see fixing the latest processor hang up problem is to 'reduce pilot workload', as well as the MCAS fix is - Boeing CEO. Thought this guy was supposed to be an engineer?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ue-459465/

Ray
 
uta999
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:49 am

Is this whole sorry MAX saga indicative of aircraft design in general? Little has improved over the last 30 years, it just keeps getting worse. A rush to the bottom. Somehow we have gone from the 707/DC-8 to the 747/Concorde, then fallen off a cliff in terms of design and innovation, back to the 1970s. Pretty soon LCC will be offering wooden seats and a bucket (for an extra fee). Boeing may have come up with the MAX and MCAS, but its the airlines that are leading this route to all things crap.
Your computer just got better
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2289
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:39 am

He's just throwing out lines to keep investors off his back.
 
art
Posts: 2914
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:53 am

sillystrings wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
sillystrings wrote:
"This is an ongoing and relentless commitment to make safe airplanes even safer."


That is not a stance of having no fault. You'll have to keep searching. And searching. And searching. Etc.


to make safe airplanes even safer

The implication is quite clear. To state otherwise is simply gas-lighting.


I interpret the "safe airplanes" reference as a reference to include the MAX ie a claim that the MAX that crashed twice was a safe aircraft. I, along with all the world's aviation regulatory authorities, dispute that claim. Fortunately the scrutiny to which the MAX has been subjected revealed another possibly catastrophic problem before another aircraft was lost: insufficient processing power/overdemanding code in the processor/software used in the MCAS system. One hopes that will prove to be the last serious deficiency identified in what Boeing asserted was a safe aircraft.
 
AirwayBill
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:37 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:28 am

Interested wrote:

Do you understand how business works in the real world?

Everything that goes into a Boeing branded plane is Boeing's responsibility

Stop trying to deflect blame

Last month it was all the pilots fault. Now it's the subcontractors

Lol


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

The manufacturer of a finished product is responsible for constantly monitoring the quality of its suppliers, and rejecting elements that are not up to standard.

If a problem occurs with said product, final manufacturer will be ultimately held responsible. Boeing is no exception, they miserably failed in that regard.

Would the general public sue Foxconn if one of the components of their iPhone had a catastrophic defect? No. Apple's brand image gets tarnished. Apple faces the charges. Apple pays the compensations.
 
kalvado
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:05 am

MrBren wrote:
I have read somewhere that the plane won't fly before H2 2020. Is this true?

Nobody is sure. Several months from now if nothing else comes up is the best you can say.
Likely 2020, as schedule will be fairly tight for 2019 EIS-2. Hopefully 2020 means Q1, maybe Q2. Another full year is on a pessimistic side, IMHO. But never say never.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:18 am

seahawk wrote:
For example could one ADIRU still access the second sensor if the other is non-operational.
Yes if this second sensor is part of the same ADIRU, for example multiple redundant IR inside the same ADIRU. No if this second sensor is part of an another ADIRU, like the AoA sensor in general. The redundancy is then done by each FCCs that get, filter, compare, and validate data from multiples ADIRU. With enough redundancy of each parts, the failure of one sensors, or one ADIRU, or one FCC still allow to keep full normal operation on a well designed system.
 
macc
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:11 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:35 pm

Anyone has an idea how many planes parked out of the shop? I wonder if Boeing will have to cut production rates down again soon, must be hell of a strain on the cash flow to have all these parts and planes sitting around.
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2289
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:38 pm

It'd be a nightmare if it emerges that they all need hardware rework!
 
SEU
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:21 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:56 pm

macc wrote:
Anyone has an idea how many planes parked out of the shop? I wonder if Boeing will have to cut production rates down again soon, must be hell of a strain on the cash flow to have all these parts and planes sitting around.


I guess the only reason they are doing it is to keep the suppliers happy and no doubt there is clauses on both sides of any supplier contract that if one breaks the contracts there is a penalty.
 
kalvado
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:08 pm

macc wrote:
Anyone has an idea how many planes parked out of the shop? I wonder if Boeing will have to cut production rates down again soon, must be hell of a strain on the cash flow to have all these parts and planes sitting around.

production keeps running at 40 frames per month, down from 50. With almost 4 months of grounding, 150-200 frames at Boeing is a safe guess; +370 or so already delivered and parked by airlines.
With list price of $100M, actual selling price probably half of that, and at progress payments already made on those, I would guess $20M is due on delivery - or $3-4B total, out of $100B annual sales.
Looks like everyone is tight liped about progress payments on frames in production; if those are on hold as well, it is another 3-4 billion.
With $10B of cash on hand before events unfolded, and with compensations for this and that possibly paid (as cash paid out now or as a discount for future payments?), Boeing may start feeling some discomfort on their bank accounts.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8603
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:57 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
seahawk wrote:
For example could one ADIRU still access the second sensor if the other is non-operational.
Yes if this second sensor is part of the same ADIRU, for example multiple redundant IR inside the same ADIRU. No if this second sensor is part of an another ADIRU, like the AoA sensor in general. The redundancy is then done by each FCCs that get, filter, compare, and validate data from multiples ADIRU. With enough redundancy of each parts, the failure of one sensors, or one ADIRU, or one FCC still allow to keep full normal operation on a well designed system.


I was mainly trying to point out, that any solution causes new failure modes and they might find a problematic one in the process.
 
ArgentoSystems
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:05 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:58 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
It'd be a nightmare if it emerges that they all need hardware rework!

I'm guessing that is where things are going. No technical basis for this guess, of course. It's just in the past their estimation for s/w fix was "a couple of weeks". Now it was immediately 3-4 months, and later CEO is afraid to give any estimates at all.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2289
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:12 pm

kalvado wrote:
macc wrote:
Anyone has an idea how many planes parked out of the shop? I wonder if Boeing will have to cut production rates down again soon, must be hell of a strain on the cash flow to have all these parts and planes sitting around.

production keeps running at 40 frames per month, down from 50. With almost 4 months of grounding, 150-200 frames at Boeing is a safe guess; +370 or so already delivered and parked by airlines.
With list price of $100M, actual selling price probably half of that, and at progress payments already made on those, I would guess $20M is due on delivery - or $3-4B total, out of $100B annual sales.
Looks like everyone is tight liped about progress payments on frames in production; if those are on hold as well, it is another 3-4 billion.
With $10B of cash on hand before events unfolded, and with compensations for this and that possibly paid (as cash paid out now or as a discount for future payments?), Boeing may start feeling some discomfort on their bank accounts.


Interesting numbers you've raised.

I know if I were in charge of an airline, I wouldn't be putting a penny on "in-build" down payments for the of an airframe I *might* not see for 24 months.

But say they get half of it - so are short $30m per frame till delivery (based on $10m upfront, $30m @ delivery, $40m total), at 40 frames/month, by 1st Jan 2020 we are looking at Boeing being ~$12B down on cashflow in compared to the norm.

I don't know how much they'll be able to put suppliers off invoicing given the nature of "Partnering for Success" 1.0 and 2.0. Not something they'll be keen to shoulder.

Add to that compensation to airlines and then add to that 777X R&D - which has to be a few billion.


Looks like there may be no stock buybacks this year. Poor Dennis.
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2031
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:32 pm

I'm shocked that they are still building 40 frames a month in Renton. It shows loyalty to their workers but at some point they'll have to stop.

https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing- ... ked-2019-6
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3766
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:43 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
It'd be a nightmare if it emerges that they all need hardware rework!

I'm guessing that is where things are going. No technical basis for this guess, of course. It's just in the past their estimation for s/w fix was "a couple of weeks". Now it was immediately 3-4 months, and later CEO is afraid to give any estimates at all.


The CEO now only says: “It’s important we take the time necessary to make these updates.”

That sounds awfully like CEO talk for this is going to take more than just a couple of months . . .

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-ceo-addresses-new-737-max-issue-459465/
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 74

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos