IADFCO
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:25 pm

Here is a potential critical scenario that does not require any MCAS failures -- I think I have described it in a previous post, but I'll gladly do it again (sorry if I don't quote all the previous posts replying to it):

1 - Initial flight conditions are such that MCAS is on but standing by (e.g., steady and level flight, flaps up, autopilot off). Everything is functioning normally, no failures.
2 - The pilot initiates a sharp turn because of the need for immediate evasive action (e.g., so instructed by ATC, an unexpected obstacle noticed when coming out of clouds, flock of birds, drone, etc.).
3 - The aircraft exceeds the MCAS Angle of Attack (AoA) activation threshold, and MCAS activates, trying to put the nose down.
4 - Since MCAS action reduces angle of attack and therefore lift of the aircraft, and load factor, and increases turn radius, the pilot fights it for the required number of seconds.
5 - Following the first activation, the MCAS "turns itself off" until the angle of attack of the aircraft falls again below the AoA activation threshold.
6 - The pilot decides that the turn needs to be tighter, because the obstacle is closing in faster than expected, so he/she pulls on the yoke to further tighten the turn.
7 - In so doing, the angle of attack never goes back below the AoA activation threshold, and MCAS stays inoperative.

The obvious concern is what happens next, without MCAS protection.

I agree with most of FluidFlow's scenario, post 172 (the only exception is perhaps the pull-up maneuver, because it may be over too quickly for the scenario above). The pilot has never experienced this "stick lightening" before, because he/she never saw it in flight or simulator training before, maybe is overloaded by the emergency situation and possibly all sorts of warnings in the cockpit, pulls too hard on the stick, and stalls.

How benign or nasty the stall characteristics of the MAX are, nobody knows, outside of Boeing and maybe FAA. The same is true for how easy or hard it is to recover from stall.

All of the above, again, does not require any failures in the updated MCAS system.
 
tropical
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:22 pm

Interested wrote:
tropical wrote:
Given that the total costs of the grounding will run into billions (whatever the number of billions might end up being), Boeing continues to needlessly shoot itself in the foot by announcing a victims compensation fund of just $100m, which works out at less than 300k per passenger.

I’m sure lawyers for the families of the victims would initially reject any initial offer as insufficient as part of the whole negotiation process. But from the PR angle alone, and considering how relatively small the amount would be within the overall cost of this affair, not to mention how financially strong Boeing is, anything less than a million dollars per victim is not only derisory but also counterproductive, and only serves to generate even more bad publicity for the company. WTF were those in charge of making such decisions thinking??


Think that's a fund for something else - not the victims
Oh... My bad, didn’t know that.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:07 pm

IADFCO wrote:
Here is a potential critical scenario that does not require any MCAS failures -- I think I have described it in a previous post, but I'll gladly do it again (sorry if I don't quote all the previous posts replying to it):

1 - Initial flight conditions are such that MCAS is on but standing by (e.g., steady and level flight, flaps up, autopilot off). Everything is functioning normally, no failures.
2 - The pilot initiates a sharp turn because of the need for immediate evasive action (e.g., so instructed by ATC, an unexpected obstacle noticed when coming out of clouds, flock of birds, drone, etc.).
.


I thought this had been put to bed a while back. Every time I read this I think about replying but don't, just hoping it will go away.

Throw out other big airplanes (everybody has TCAS) and terrain (all the MAX's have EGWPS). Also anything ATC sees that you don't will be done within the normal operating limit.

That said, if you're trying to dodge something small (drones, birds, etc) or a light airplane (non-TCAS) that just came into view and you make a turn using an excessive bank angle the "event" would be over in seconds -- it's a hit or a miss -- at which point you'd return to normal stable flight. 737's ae not F-16's. They do respond nicely in roll but they don't slow down that rapidly (unless you help by pulling the thrust levers to idle) and even at has high a bank angle as any commercial pilot would go to the stick shaker speed would still take a while to get to. I think most pilots would add power in this case realizing they were going into a higher than normal bank turn.

In other words within seconds of starting the maneuver you'd be recovering long before the MCAS went off.
 
Absynth
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:51 pm

Revelation wrote:
Absynth wrote:
Revelation wrote:



You keep bringing that statement up but

a) "returned to service by September" does not equal worldwide ungrounding. It's pretty likely from multiple statements including that Bloomberg article Europe will likely follow later and China even later still. If there is a worldwide ungrounding, it will follow the slowest path not the fastest possible path that is painted by Boeing.

b) this is a statement by Boeing. The same Boeing that stated in early may that a fix was ready yet waited for weeks to actually turn it in. They have a vested interest in portraying the situation through the most rose tinted glasses you'd be able to source, yet you continue to pencil this statement as if it were fact and extrapolate this to the rest of the world in one full sweep. Bizarre.

You use a Boeing statement to counter statements from EASA. Even when the source is anonymous, Bloomberg is no gossip magazine using dubious sources. EASA won't make any official statetements on this so this is about as trustworthy news about their approach and what it means for Boeing as it possibly gets.

That's a lot of outrage venting over one simple statement posted with proper attribution in its proper context, Absynth.


You present Boeing PR fluff as fact to dismiss statements by the EASA Revelation. That's pretty improper if you ask me.
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:39 am

SPEEA engineer breaks silence on Boeing's MAX 737. Read this letter

https://www.kuow.org/stories/boeing-eng ... his-letter
 
speedking
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:43 am

ArgentoSystems wrote:
SPEEA engineer breaks silence on Boeing's MAX 737. Read this letter

https://www.kuow.org/stories/boeing-eng ... his-letter


Incredible. Truly The Cheapest. A Bombay-Boeing from Walmart. Long gone are the Days of Glory!
A Tata Nano might take you cheaply from a point A to B but it is not a Cadillac.
Are there any options for the flying public with higher standards?
 
maint123
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:09 am

speedking wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
SPEEA engineer breaks silence on Boeing's MAX 737. Read this letter

https://www.kuow.org/stories/boeing-eng ... his-letter


Incredible. Truly The Cheapest. A Bombay-Boeing from Walmart. Long gone are the Days of Glory!
A Tata Nano might take you cheaply from a point A to B but it is not a Cadillac.
Are there any options for the flying public with higher standards?

I see that you have joined this forum right after the first max crash.
And you have previously claimed that it's not possible that the MCAS system was not disclosed to the pilots.
Not a Boeing emplyoee are you ? Trying your best to deflect the blame from Boeing to other easier targets, even though these planted stories have been discredited before ?
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:30 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
And I find your theories to be pretty wild. The BOD will not allow this to drag until the middle of 2020.

How much say BOD has, from your perspective?
It is about certification agencies, and there is no guarantee they buy whatever modification Boeing does next as a solution.
So assuming it is 2020, and MAX is not yet in the air, what should BOD do? Take the program out of misery by cancelling all orders, buybacks of all planes and taking 50 billion write-off? Or what?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:34 am

kalvado wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
And I find your theories to be pretty wild. The BOD will not allow this to drag until the middle of 2020.

How much say BOD has, from your perspective?
It is about certification agencies, and there is no guarantee they buy whatever modification Boeing does next as a solution.
So assuming it is 2020, and MAX is not yet in the air, what should BOD do? Take the program out of misery by cancelling all orders, buybacks of all planes and taking 50 billion write-off? Or what?


If Boeing complies with the FAA and checks off their list of demands then why would the FAA keep it grounded? The BOD will intervene if they feel management isn't up to the task or moving quickly enough to roll out the needed improvements.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:24 am

ArgentoSystems wrote:
No, that's outdated info. Right now Boeing does not have any estimates on return to service.

What? You work for Boeing? Since you must, could you correct your colleague and also tell us the internal timeline?

ArgentoSystems wrote:
SPEEA engineer breaks silence on Boeing's MAX 737. Read this letter

https://www.kuow.org/stories/boeing-eng ... his-letter


*Sarcasm on* I'm shocked that a person with skin in the game is critical. *Sarcasm off*

Look, all opinions have to be read, but this is one that needs to be taken with a healthy dose of salt. The glory days of limited aircraft manufacturing competition is long over. The technology is mature, and the difference between success and failure is razor thin. Manufacturers needs to be lean. Otherwise they don't sell airplanes. It's definitely written by someone that doesn't fully understand the economic/management side of the equation, and yet the person speaks as if they know better. Most importantly, the issue with MCAS isn't proof of causation.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:29 am

XRAYretired wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
COEWR787 wrote:
Europe (EASA) just outlined its own demands before it will let the MAX fly in Europe

https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing- ... urn-2019-5

Apparently they won;t be trusting FAA's soothing words any more.

The article is dated from 22 May 2019, 14:10. An update would be welcome.

Perhaps the poster meant to link todays Bloomberg.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -fly-again

Ray

EASA’s checklist includes the potential difficulty pilots have in turning the jet’s manual trim wheel, the unreliability of the Max’s angle-of-attack sensors, inadequate training procedures, the autopilot failing to disengage in certain emergencies, and a software issue flagged just last week by the FAA pertaining to a lagging microprocessor.


Don't think we've heard this one before?

Could the newly identified autopilot issue, mean in certain instances the system 'hangs' when autopilot is turned off and / or flaps re-selected, so the so-called MCAS work arounds don't work?
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:37 am

MSPNWA wrote:
What? You work for Boeing? Since you must, could you correct your colleague and also tell us the internal timeline?
...
Look, all opinions have to be read, but this is one that needs to be taken with a healthy dose of salt.

I don't. In case you don't follow news, the most recent message from Boeing is that they will submit MCAS fix and the other (FCC) problem fix to FAA in September. And THAT is the opinion that has to be taken with a healthy dose of salt :)
 
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767333ER
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:26 am

Interested wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
767333ER wrote:
See here's the thing, you're talking about enthusiasts which is basically the equivalent of a fan. Now in sports for example fans are seen to be more or less dumb or ignorant. This is all besides the point however as I don't see how anyone could possibly like a company that makes planes that fly themselves into the ground, falsifies documents, and fires and threatens to sue employees that caught nonconformities on the assembly line. I for one sure don't like organizations that cover things up. I suppose the only people that could are nationalists or otherwise ill informed people.


Maybe I see through the faux outrage. Some of is realize Boeong isn't alone in having an airplane with a defect or design flaw.

But Boeing does need new leadership. Not just because of this bit the NMA should have been launched a long time ago. They are being way too conservative in that market. I can't blame them for not launching an NSA. There was no engine for it and as far as I know there stll isn't.


350 dead - 5000 more people with their families devastated as a result

"Faux Outrage"

Says it all

If there are any key decision makers at Boeing with the same attitude as you - then maybe Boeing can actually fail after all

And if so it will be fully deserved

Let's hope for Boeing's sake you are just a severe outlier

Disregard the public at your peril

But it’s in plain English right there, Boeing needs new leadership, badly. The leadership they have now gives into the idiotic leadership of a couple of Texas airlines whining that they want a more efficient 737 that won’t cost them any extra to implement than the current one and they want it NOW and this is the junk they have to make to get there. How about don’t give in to those fools because hey one of them will order from you anyway and if you make a good enough NMA product you can convince the other one to do so as well and then guess what, the nearly 350 people wouldn’t have died, any one of which’s life is infinitely worth more than every cent Boeing has ever earned or spent put together.

But then again there was another problem, those airlines both have older rotting 737s that probably had some of those lovely noncomforming fuselage joining pieces that would rot after a good 8-10 years and would need worked on so at least one of these two airlines badly wanted rid of some of those too, but where did that get them now...

I mean having a defect or flaw happens like the Trent 1000 eats itself up, but we shouldn’t be discussing engineering failures of this magnitude where planes are flying themselves into the ground in 2019... well maybe if we weren’t using stuff from the 1960s anymore.
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MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:32 am

ArgentoSystems wrote:
I don't. In case you don't follow news, the most recent message from Boeing is that they will submit MCAS fix and the other (FCC) problem fix to FAA in September. And THAT is the opinion that has to be taken with a healthy dose of salt :)


I don't think it's funny to lie to people that read this and wouldn't know better. I had to read the article to know for sure you were spreading misinformation. Others won't be so lucky.

September with salt is still September. There is no other option.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:27 am

Revelation wrote:
Absynth wrote:
Revelation wrote:



You keep bringing that statement up but

a) "returned to service by September" does not equal worldwide ungrounding. It's pretty likely from multiple statements including that Bloomberg article Europe will likely follow later and China even later still. If there is a worldwide ungrounding, it will follow the slowest path not the fastest possible path that is painted by Boeing.

b) this is a statement by Boeing. The same Boeing that stated in early may that a fix was ready yet waited for weeks to actually turn it in. They have a vested interest in portraying the situation through the most rose tinted glasses you'd be able to source, yet you continue to pencil this statement as if it were fact and extrapolate this to the rest of the world in one full sweep. Bizarre.

You use a Boeing statement to counter statements from EASA. Even when the source is anonymous, Bloomberg is no gossip magazine using dubious sources. EASA won't make any official statetements on this so this is about as trustworthy news about their approach and what it means for Boeing as it possibly gets.

That's a lot of outrage venting over one simple statement posted with proper attribution in its proper context, Absynth.


I understood what you said. It sounded reasonable.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:41 am

Let's keep ignoring the EASA found Boeing 737 Max's Autopilot Has Problem. Maybe it 'll go away..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:30 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
kalvado wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
And I find your theories to be pretty wild. The BOD will not allow this to drag until the middle of 2020.

How much say BOD has, from your perspective?
It is about certification agencies, and there is no guarantee they buy whatever modification Boeing does next as a solution.
So assuming it is 2020, and MAX is not yet in the air, what should BOD do? Take the program out of misery by cancelling all orders, buybacks of all planes and taking 50 billion write-off? Or what?


If Boeing complies with the FAA and checks off their list of demands then why would the FAA keep it grounded? The BOD will intervene if they feel management isn't up to the task or moving quickly enough to roll out the needed improvement's.


If - or rather when - everything is good to go, then life is beautiful.
Problem is that good to go may be easier to say than to achieve. And there is only that much managers, directors and stockholders can do about it. Probably return to flight group already has everything the need at topmost priority level. Finding another group of engineers intimately familiar with 737 is hardly possible. So directors have an option of cheerleading the effort or killing it, I don't see any middle option.
So "they will not allow" means killing it, or what?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:42 am

keesje wrote:
Let's keep ignoring the EASA found Boeing 737 Max's Autopilot Has Problem. Maybe it 'll go away..

To keep activity on this thread sure, thankfully Boeing and the FAA have agreed on the severity of the problems and are working on resolving them to each others mutual satisfaction.
 
sillystrings
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:05 pm

MSPNWA wrote:

Look, all opinions have to be read, but this is one that needs to be taken with a healthy dose of salt. The glory days of limited aircraft manufacturing competition is long over. The technology is mature, and the difference between success and failure is razor thin. Manufacturers needs to be lean. Otherwise they don't sell airplanes. It's definitely written by someone that doesn't fully understand the economic/management side of the equation, and yet the person speaks as if they know better. Most importantly, the issue with MCAS isn't proof of causation.


From Boeing website:
Full-Year 2018

Record revenue of $101.1 billion reflecting strong growth across the portfolio
Record GAAP EPS of $17.85 and record core EPS (non-GAAP)* of $16.01 driven by solid execution
Record operating cash flow of $15.3 billion; repurchased 26.1 million shares for $9.0 billion
Total backlog remains robust at $490 billion, including nearly 5,900 commercial airplanes
Cash and marketable securities of $8.6 billion provide strong liquidity

Outlook for 2019

Revenue guidance of between $109.5 and $111.5 billion reflects higher volume across all businesses
GAAP EPS of between $21.90 and $22.10; core EPS (non-GAAP)* of between $19.90 and $20.10
Operating cash flow expected to increase to between $17.0 and $17.5 billion
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:07 pm

Absynth wrote:
You present Boeing PR fluff as fact to dismiss statements by the EASA Revelation. That's pretty improper if you ask me.

Actually it does not dismiss statements by the EASA, that's just the spin you are applying. It's quite possible Boeing fully understands what EASA is requesting and still feels it can return the aircraft to service in September. Both Boeing and EASA say they've had frequent communications so none of this should be a surprise to Boeing.

ArgentoSystems wrote:
SPEEA engineer breaks silence on Boeing's MAX 737. Read this letter

https://www.kuow.org/stories/boeing-eng ... his-letter

What silence is being broken? There's been nothing silent about this entire situation. It should be no surprise a union leader should not like cost cutting measures and would paint a rosy picture of days gone by. While I'm generally pro-union, some of the stuff Boeing's unions have been doing over the years to pad their membership numbers with make work jobs are absurd.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
brindabella
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:11 pm

sillystrings wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

Look, all opinions have to be read, but this is one that needs to be taken with a healthy dose of salt. The glory days of limited aircraft manufacturing competition is long over. The technology is mature, and the difference between success and failure is razor thin. Manufacturers needs to be lean. Otherwise they don't sell airplanes. It's definitely written by someone that doesn't fully understand the economic/management side of the equation, and yet the person speaks as if they know better. Most importantly, the issue with MCAS isn't proof of causation.


From Boeing website:
Full-Year 2018

Record revenue of $101.1 billion reflecting strong growth across the portfolio
Record GAAP EPS of $17.85 and record core EPS (non-GAAP)* of $16.01 driven by solid execution
Record operating cash flow of $15.3 billion; repurchased 26.1 million shares for $9.0 billion
Total backlog remains robust at $490 billion, including nearly 5,900 commercial airplanes
Cash and marketable securities of $8.6 billion provide strong liquidity



Outlook for 2019

Revenue guidance of between $109.5 and $111.5 billion reflects higher volume across all businesses
GAAP EPS of between $21.90 and $22.10; core EPS (non-GAAP)* of between $19.90 and $20.10
Operating cash flow expected to increase to between $17.0 and $17.5 billion


\Link thanks?

cheers
Billy
 
sillystrings
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:25 pm

brindabella wrote:
sillystrings wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

Look, all opinions have to be read, but this is one that needs to be taken with a healthy dose of salt. The glory days of limited aircraft manufacturing competition is long over. The technology is mature, and the difference between success and failure is razor thin. Manufacturers needs to be lean. Otherwise they don't sell airplanes. It's definitely written by someone that doesn't fully understand the economic/management side of the equation, and yet the person speaks as if they know better. Most importantly, the issue with MCAS isn't proof of causation.


From Boeing website:
Full-Year 2018

Record revenue of $101.1 billion reflecting strong growth across the portfolio
Record GAAP EPS of $17.85 and record core EPS (non-GAAP)* of $16.01 driven by solid execution
Record operating cash flow of $15.3 billion; repurchased 26.1 million shares for $9.0 billion
Total backlog remains robust at $490 billion, including nearly 5,900 commercial airplanes
Cash and marketable securities of $8.6 billion provide strong liquidity



Outlook for 2019

Revenue guidance of between $109.5 and $111.5 billion reflects higher volume across all businesses
GAAP EPS of between $21.90 and $22.10; core EPS (non-GAAP)* of between $19.90 and $20.10
Operating cash flow expected to increase to between $17.0 and $17.5 billion


\Link thanks?

cheers


http://investors.boeing.com/investors/investor-news/press-release-details/2019/Boeing-Reports-Record-2018-Results-and-Provides-2019-Guidance/default.aspx
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:25 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
I don't. In case you don't follow news, the most recent message from Boeing is that they will submit MCAS fix and the other (FCC) problem fix to FAA in September. And THAT is the opinion that has to be taken with a healthy dose of salt :)


I don't think it's funny to lie to people that read this and wouldn't know better. I had to read the article to know for sure you were spreading misinformation. Others won't be so lucky.

Are you confused? What misinformation are you talking about?
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:28 pm

sillystrings wrote:


There is no point to do that... That is the pre-MAX guidance (duh!) that Boeing since withdrawn. There is no new one yet.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/24/boeing- ... -2019.html
 
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767333ER
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
Absynth wrote:
You present Boeing PR fluff as fact to dismiss statements by the EASA Revelation. That's pretty improper if you ask me.

Actually it does not dismiss statements by the EASA, that's just the spin you are applying. It's quite possible Boeing fully understands what EASA is requesting and still feels it can return the aircraft to service in September. Both Boeing and EASA say they've had frequent communications so none of this should be a surprise to Boeing.

ArgentoSystems wrote:
SPEEA engineer breaks silence on Boeing's MAX 737. Read this letter

https://www.kuow.org/stories/boeing-eng ... his-letter

What silence is being broken? There's been nothing silent about this entire situation. It should be no surprise a union leader should not like cost cutting measures and would paint a rosy picture of days gone by. While I'm generally pro-union, some of the stuff Boeing's unions have been doing over the years to pad their membership numbers with make work jobs are absurd.

Boeing is trying to keep people’s hopes up because hey, why not. You want to look confident in their position. Say it’s coming back in September, if not, it’s all good, blame the regulatory bodies or say the fix is coming along but just taking longer than anticipated. It looks better than saying we don’t know when it’s coming back into service because that implies that they may not even know what all the problems are or how to fix them. The problem with Boeing coming out and giving an arbitrary timeframe for return to service is that it isn’t up to them. I don’t imagine they would be going around getting their lawyers to draft a clean bill of health for the FAA to read out to everyone like they have in the past. I could very well be wrong when I say this, but I don’t think September is realistic when dealing with faulty software and now microprocessors as well, it’s just PR to keep everyone’s confidence in the company up, we’ll see in September.


The trick with the SPEEA is to try to see the forest for the trees, there’s a pattern here. I don’t think it matters in this context what things the union has done over the years because if there’s cost cutting to the point of fatalities they will see it and many others will too and they did. Think of all the whistle blowers over the years warning us something like this would happen due to cost cutting. I remember at one point I had contact with a former Boeing employee before he dropped off the radar and he always would say that it had become a place of politics and cost cutting and not much else. It’s hard to deny the the reality that they have built here.
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ArgentoSystems
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:03 pm

767333ER wrote:
I don’t think September is realistic when dealing with faulty software and now microprocessors as well, it’s just PR to keep everyone’s confidence in the company up, we’ll see in September.

It is hard to guess what the second problem fix entails without any hard information. But judging by how quickly they came out with the estimate and how far out it was, I'm guessing their immediate feeling was that the problem and solution is not as trivial like MCAS. So they went with 2-3 month instead of usual 2-3 weeks in the past. If they actually have to some rewriting to do to save CPU cycles I sure hope they don't rush it.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:42 pm

smartplane wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
The article is dated from 22 May 2019, 14:10. An update would be welcome.

Perhaps the poster meant to link todays Bloomberg.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -fly-again

Ray

EASA’s checklist includes the potential difficulty pilots have in turning the jet’s manual trim wheel, the unreliability of the Max’s angle-of-attack sensors, inadequate training procedures, the autopilot failing to disengage in certain emergencies, and a software issue flagged just last week by the FAA pertaining to a lagging microprocessor.


Don't think we've heard this one before?

Could the newly identified autopilot issue, mean in certain instances the system 'hangs' when autopilot is turned off and / or flaps re-selected, so the so-called MCAS work arounds don't work?

Highly unlikely. MCAS doesn't exist with autopilot engaged since the autopilot doesn't feel stick force. I can also make a reasonable assumption that the autopilot has envelope protection built in so the autopilot will never get near an approach to stall.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:47 pm

keesje wrote:
Let's keep ignoring the EASA found Boeing 737 Max's Autopilot Has Problem. Maybe it 'll go away..

Until they release details of exactly what they found it's hard to know how much of an "issue" it is. From what I've read, there isn't an issue "with" the autopilot (which would imply a problem with autopilot function) but rather that it fails to disengage in certain emergencies.

It isn't clear if failure to disengage means failure to do so automatically or failure to do so manually. The former might not be a big issue if the "certain" emergencies are very low likelihood.

So maybe it's a significant issue maybe it isn't. At this point it seems to be partially click bait.

Other than accounting for different flight characteristics, I doubt the autopilot software was changed from the NG. If this issue exists on the NG then it is safe to say it isn't a big issue based on service record.
 
MrBretz
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:05 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
767333ER wrote:
I don’t think September is realistic when dealing with faulty software and now microprocessors as well, it’s just PR to keep everyone’s confidence in the company up, we’ll see in September.

It is hard to guess what the second problem fix entails without any hard information. But judging by how quickly they came out with the estimate and how far out it was, I'm guessing their immediate feeling was that the problem and solution is not as trivial like MCAS. So they went with 2-3 month instead of usual 2-3 weeks in the past. If they actually have to some rewriting to do to save CPU cycles I sure hope they don't rush it.


I agree with this. That’s what we did years ago. They are probably reprogramming some C or C+ routines/objects in assembly language to get more speed. It is labor intensive but easy to check for errors with software simulations.
 
Absynth
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:17 pm

767333ER wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Absynth wrote:
You present Boeing PR fluff as fact to dismiss statements by the EASA Revelation. That's pretty improper if you ask me.

Actually it does not dismiss statements by the EASA, that's just the spin you are applying. It's quite possible Boeing fully understands what EASA is requesting and still feels it can return the aircraft to service in September. Both Boeing and EASA say they've had frequent communications so none of this should be a surprise to Boeing.

ArgentoSystems wrote:
SPEEA engineer breaks silence on Boeing's MAX 737. Read this letter

https://www.kuow.org/stories/boeing-eng ... his-letter

What silence is being broken? There's been nothing silent about this entire situation. It should be no surprise a union leader should not like cost cutting measures and would paint a rosy picture of days gone by. While I'm generally pro-union, some of the stuff Boeing's unions have been doing over the years to pad their membership numbers with make work jobs are absurd.

Boeing is trying to keep people’s hopes up because hey, why not. You want to look confident in their position. Say it’s coming back in September, if not, it’s all good, blame the regulatory bodies or say the fix is coming along but just taking longer than anticipated. It looks better than saying we don’t know when it’s coming back into service because that implies that they may not even know what all the problems are or how to fix them. The problem with Boeing coming out and giving an arbitrary timeframe for return to service is that it isn’t up to them. I don’t imagine they would be going around getting their lawyers to draft a clean bill of health for the FAA to read out to everyone like they have in the past. I could very well be wrong when I say this, but I don’t think September is realistic when dealing with faulty software and now microprocessors as well, it’s just PR to keep everyone’s confidence in the company up, we’ll see in September.


The trick with the SPEEA is to try to see the forest for the trees, there’s a pattern here. I don’t think it matters in this context what things the union has done over the years because if there’s cost cutting to the point of fatalities they will see it and many others will too and they did. Think of all the whistle blowers over the years warning us something like this would happen due to cost cutting. I remember at one point I had contact with a former Boeing employee before he dropped off the radar and he always would say that it had become a place of politics and cost cutting and not much else. It’s hard to deny the the reality that they have built here.


Only a few months ago Boeing claimed may ungrounding and a quick fix. And now we should take their new estimate at face value when issues are even more severe? LOL. some people here just never learn...

And like you state, this is not in Boeing's hands.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:09 pm

Absynth wrote:
Only a few months ago Boeing claimed may ungrounding and a quick fix. And now we should take their new estimate at face value when issues are even more severe?

All I said was that it was interesting that Bloomberg was willing to report that Boeing was telling its customers that 737 would be back in service in September, especially in the context provided, which was that the estimate included a fix for the slow response time issue.

I didn't say you or anyone else should take it at face value, but given the wide range of estimates we got after the "broken microprocessor" story was floated here I think it may be resetting a lot of people's expectations.

Personally I find the date aggressive, but it could be the problem is not as challenging as myself and others thought it was.

I wrote earlier the info we were getting was pretty garbled, so maybe it's not as big a problem as suggested, or perhaps they already had begun addressing it a long time ago and don't need a lot of time to bring the fix in to the current software base and test it.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
art
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:09 pm

keesje wrote:
Let's keep ignoring the EASA found Boeing 737 Max's Autopilot Has Problem. Maybe it 'll go away..


It is starting to look likely that the plane itself will be away for quite some time.

Forget Boeing - they put themselves in this situation by chasing the gods of market share and profit with the MAX at the cost of safety (and a lot of lives) but what of short/medium haul airlines affected by the grounding? It should be that any airline wanting to lease NB's will pay higher rates. Any airline wishing to buy Airbus NB's will pay higher rates. Airlines scheduled to replace 737 NG's with MAX's are put into a position of uncertainty re availability.

How much financial damage will airlines suffer because of the MAX grounding and who pays if Boeing cannot deliver new NB's that are allowed to fly to customers awaiting MAX's?
 
Absynth
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
Absynth wrote:
Only a few months ago Boeing claimed may ungrounding and a quick fix. And now we should take their new estimate at face value when issues are even more severe?

All I said was that it was interesting that Bloomberg was willing to report that Boeing was telling its customers that 737 would be back in service in September, especially in the context provided, which was that the estimate included a fix for the slow response time issue.

I didn't say you or anyone else should take it at face value, but given the wide range of estimates we got after the "broken microprocessor" story was floated here I think it may be resetting a lot of people's expectations.

Personally I find the date aggressive, but it could be the problem is not as challenging as myself and others thought it was.

I wrote earlier the info we were getting was pretty garbled, so maybe it's not as big a problem as suggested, or perhaps they already had begun addressing it a long time ago and don't need a lot of time to bring the fix in to the current software base and test it.


I'll give you that from all estimates, their own estimate should be the most reliable, but only if the estimate they shared with the airliners is a realistic one, not their most optimistic scenario. Given the huge consequences of further delays, I really doubt they gave their most realistic estimate to the operators.

I'll also give you that they should have
a) anticipated this issue and started work on it in case it was rated catastrophic by the FAA (which I find a likely, but also very disturbing scenario - as it implies they learned nothing from the MCAS and AoA disagree alert disasters)
b) they should have their entire engineering team working on parallel software and hardware fixes by now

I'm just not so sure this particular fix will cut it for EASA. I think they have significant extra work ahead of them after the FCC fix. The MAX return to flight may be ultra long haul.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:41 pm

Absynth wrote:
I'm just not so sure this particular fix will cut it for EASA. I think they have significant extra work ahead of them after the FCC fix. The MAX return to flight may be ultra long haul.

The most interesting thing about the article being discussed is that EASA has provided a list of things Boeing needs to address. Up to this point their concerns were open ended if not nebulous. From my point of view this probably bounds the amount of time that 737 will be grounded. Their list of concerns may be changed with time, but as an engineer I'd rather have a list of things to address than to just be looking at various things wondering if that's what the regulator is concerned about.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:42 pm

Absynth wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Absynth wrote:
Only a few months ago Boeing claimed may ungrounding and a quick fix. And now we should take their new estimate at face value when issues are even more severe?

All I said was that it was interesting that Bloomberg was willing to report that Boeing was telling its customers that 737 would be back in service in September, especially in the context provided, which was that the estimate included a fix for the slow response time issue.

I didn't say you or anyone else should take it at face value, but given the wide range of estimates we got after the "broken microprocessor" story was floated here I think it may be resetting a lot of people's expectations.

Personally I find the date aggressive, but it could be the problem is not as challenging as myself and others thought it was.

I wrote earlier the info we were getting was pretty garbled, so maybe it's not as big a problem as suggested, or perhaps they already had begun addressing it a long time ago and don't need a lot of time to bring the fix in to the current software base and test it.


I'll give you that from all estimates, their own estimate should be the most reliable, but only if the estimate they shared with the airliners is a realistic one, not their most optimistic scenario. Given the huge consequences of further delays, I really doubt they gave their most realistic estimate to the operators.

I'll also give you that they should have
a) anticipated this issue and started work on it in case it was rated catastrophic by the FAA (which I find a likely, but also very disturbing scenario - as it implies they learned nothing from the MCAS and AoA disagree alert disasters)
b) they should have their entire engineering team working on parallel software and hardware fixes by now

I'm just not so sure this particular fix will cut it for EASA. I think they have significant extra work ahead of them after the FCC fix. The MAX return to flight may be ultra long haul.


What exactly would Boeing gain by not giving the airlines a realistic estimate? If they think it will be grounded until December but tell their customers September what would that do except cause logistical issues for their customers with no benefit to Boeing.

And don't say stock price. The stock will move based on when it really gets approved. The stock won't go up because Boeing says they think it will fly in 2 months.
 
Absynth
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:04 pm

Revelation wrote:
Absynth wrote:
I'm just not so sure this particular fix will cut it for EASA. I think they have significant extra work ahead of them after the FCC fix. The MAX return to flight may be ultra long haul.

The most interesting thing about the article being discussed is that EASA has provided a list of things Boeing needs to address. Up to this point their concerns were open ended if not nebulous. From my point of view this probably bounds the amount of time that 737 will be grounded. Their list of concerns may be changed with time, but as an engineer I'd rather have a list of things to address than to just be looking at various things wondering if that's what the regulator is concerned about.


If that list doesn't concern you I doubt what list will. A lot of them are hardware issues. The heavy trim wheel, how to address that? Unreliable AoA sensors? I read that as 2 = not enough, not issues with the AoA sensor itself. And all these software and hardware issues will be addressed in two months?

By all accounts everyone is free to believe what they want. But that statement doesn't even remotely pass the sniff test.
 
xmp125a
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:07 pm

enzo011 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If you think the pilots and aielines will be blameless in the accident reports then you aren't paying attention. Both crews made mistakes. The previous Lion Air crew faced the same situation yet they got the plane on the ground safely. And Lion Air repeatedly oushed a malfunctioning aircraft back to the flight line.



Off course they made mistakes, just like the design of MCAS from Boeing was a mistake. If Boeing had done its job to perfection, which seem to be required of the pilots of both flights, then there would not have been the loss of the aircraft. Also, the previous flight had something the two crews who had the accident didn't, a fellow pilot in the jumpseat who was helping to monitor and give advice. Maybe that is the solution, have a three member crew to deal with the extra work Boeing gives to the pilots?


We could extend the previous quip about 737Max having zero emissions with "the safest 3pilot aircraft currently produced by Boeing"!
 
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rikkus67
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:10 pm

speedking wrote:
ArgentoSystems wrote:
SPEEA engineer breaks silence on Boeing's MAX 737. Read this letter

https://www.kuow.org/stories/boeing-eng ... his-letter


Incredible. Truly The Cheapest. A Bombay-Boeing from Walmart. Long gone are the Days of Glory!
A Tata Nano might take you cheaply from a point A to B but it is not a Cadillac.
Are there any options for the flying public with higher standards?


Yeah, it's called a CSer.... err, A220. More and more, I am wondering if the whole 737-CSeries debacle was because Boeing knew their cash cow wasn't as perfect as they wanted everyone to believe.

I would never wish ill will on any company. It doesn't matter if you are a fan or not, period. Unfortunately, the timing of the near demise of the CSeries, and the tragedies with the Max seem to start correlating more than just an issue with pricing.

Just another thought.
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:02 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
SPEEA engineer breaks silence on Boeing's MAX 737. Read this letter

https://www.kuow.org/stories/boeing-eng ... his-letter


The most interesting comment here is the suggestion that Boeing used to compete with Airbus and it was all about product and quality

Now they have moved on and they now compete with companies like Apple and it's all about being the most attractive company for investors

That explains a lot

They've forgotten what got them where they are
 
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tenHangar
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:02 pm

MrBretz wrote:

I agree with this. That’s what we did years ago. They are probably reprogramming some C or C+ routines/objects in assembly language to get more speed. It is labor intensive but easy to check for errors with software simulations.

One of my first thoughts when I heard about the "slow response time" and $9/hour programmer issues was inappropriate programming language. Indian programmers are known for/strong in Java which is arguably slower than C or C++. (Note, I don't know what languages are actually used in 737MAX systems).
Last edited by tenHangar on Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:03 pm

The other interesting suggestion is engineers who find problems or raise issues are viewed as troublesome

That's a bad place to be
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:10 pm

planecane wrote:
Absynth wrote:
Revelation wrote:
All I said was that it was interesting that Bloomberg was willing to report that Boeing was telling its customers that 737 would be back in service in September, especially in the context provided, which was that the estimate included a fix for the slow response time issue.

I didn't say you or anyone else should take it at face value, but given the wide range of estimates we got after the "broken microprocessor" story was floated here I think it may be resetting a lot of people's expectations.

Personally I find the date aggressive, but it could be the problem is not as challenging as myself and others thought it was.

I wrote earlier the info we were getting was pretty garbled, so maybe it's not as big a problem as suggested, or perhaps they already had begun addressing it a long time ago and don't need a lot of time to bring the fix in to the current software base and test it.


I'll give you that from all estimates, their own estimate should be the most reliable, but only if the estimate they shared with the airliners is a realistic one, not their most optimistic scenario. Given the huge consequences of further delays, I really doubt they gave their most realistic estimate to the operators.

I'll also give you that they should have
a) anticipated this issue and started work on it in case it was rated catastrophic by the FAA (which I find a likely, but also very disturbing scenario - as it implies they learned nothing from the MCAS and AoA disagree alert disasters)
b) they should have their entire engineering team working on parallel software and hardware fixes by now

I'm just not so sure this particular fix will cut it for EASA. I think they have significant extra work ahead of them after the FCC fix. The MAX return to flight may be ultra long haul.


What exactly would Boeing gain by not giving the airlines a realistic estimate? If they think it will be grounded until December but tell their customers September what would that do except cause logistical issues for their customers with no benefit to Boeing.

And don't say stock price. The stock will move based on when it really gets approved. The stock won't go up because Boeing says they think it will fly in 2 months.

Providing repeatedly optimistic return to service and modification requirements has persuaded some customers to continue making milestone payments, and move ahead of less enthusiastic customers/supporters. If customers perceive solutions are 'just around the corner', they are less likely to be decisive choosing alternatives.

For the foreseeable future, Boeing has accelerated changes to the commercial aviation landscape, started by RR & PW. For risk management, larger airlines will operate NB and WB fleets from both A & B, powered by two different engine OEM's. The 787 with RR engines will be gone, as the WB default becomes A = RR and B = GE.

Future new NB model volumes may sustain 2 engine brands, but meanwhile, expect predominantly 737-based airlines to minimise future risk by acquiring A320 family powered by PW, and airlines planning to acquire both A220 and A320 family, to select PW for the A220, and LEAP for A320.

Only five months until the end of the year. How likely are SW and FZ to have ordered A320 family powered by PW by 1 Jan 2020? And how likely Airbus will have acquired some / all of RR aero engines by the end of 2020? And the outside bet, PW commercial aero engines goes to Airbus/RR and military to Boeing/GE.
Last edited by smartplane on Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
ubeema
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:11 pm

planecane wrote:
What exactly would Boeing gain by not giving the airlines a realistic estimate? If they think it will be grounded until December but tell their customers September what would that do except cause logistical issues for their customers with no benefit to Boeing.

And don't say stock price. The stock will move based on when it really gets approved. The stock won't go up because Boeing says they think it will fly in 2 months.

I have struggled with that thought too. Poster “Smartplane” shared some insights on the 3 key stages for aircraft acquisition upthread. What I understood is that Boeing is protecting pending/future sales pipeline, basically keeping potential customers from getting cold feet. Although they have a solid backlog to keep factory going for next couple years, sales pipeline remain a constant worry for any business that rely on manufacturing outputs.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:27 pm

ubeema wrote:
planecane wrote:
What exactly would Boeing gain by not giving the airlines a realistic estimate? If they think it will be grounded until December but tell their customers September what would that do except cause logistical issues for their customers with no benefit to Boeing.

And don't say stock price. The stock will move based on when it really gets approved. The stock won't go up because Boeing says they think it will fly in 2 months.

I have struggled with that thought too. Poster “Smartplane” shared some insights on the 3 key stages for aircraft acquisition upthread. What I understood is that Boeing is protecting pending/future sales pipeline, basically keeping potential customers from getting cold feet. Although they have a solid backlog to keep factory going for next couple years, sales pipeline remain a constant worry for any business that rely on manufacturing outputs.

Airlines aren't run by complete morons. They aren't going to take verbal assurances. Any new orders are going to be far enough out that either the MAX will be ungrounded by then or Boeing will be refunding progress payments or offering to apply them to deeply discounted NGs after paying a huge penalty to CFM.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:29 pm

tenHangar wrote:
MrBretz wrote:

I agree with this. That’s what we did years ago. They are probably reprogramming some C or C+ routines/objects in assembly language to get more speed. It is labor intensive but easy to check for errors with software simulations.

One of my first thoughts when I heard about the "slow response time" and $9/hour programmer issues was inappropriate programming language. Indian programmers are known for/strong in Java which is arguably slower than C or C++. (Note, I don't know what languages are actually used in 737MAX systems).

It's not the programmer that decide the programming language used in a safety critical flight computer. This is part of the high level planning per DO-178. I think it's very unlikely that the 737-8/9 MAX flight computer contain any Java code. You can certainly find a lot of competent Indian engineers in any programming language.
 
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OA940
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:21 pm

planecane wrote:
Absynth wrote:
Revelation wrote:
All I said was that it was interesting that Bloomberg was willing to report that Boeing was telling its customers that 737 would be back in service in September, especially in the context provided, which was that the estimate included a fix for the slow response time issue.

I didn't say you or anyone else should take it at face value, but given the wide range of estimates we got after the "broken microprocessor" story was floated here I think it may be resetting a lot of people's expectations.

Personally I find the date aggressive, but it could be the problem is not as challenging as myself and others thought it was.

I wrote earlier the info we were getting was pretty garbled, so maybe it's not as big a problem as suggested, or perhaps they already had begun addressing it a long time ago and don't need a lot of time to bring the fix in to the current software base and test it.


I'll give you that from all estimates, their own estimate should be the most reliable, but only if the estimate they shared with the airliners is a realistic one, not their most optimistic scenario. Given the huge consequences of further delays, I really doubt they gave their most realistic estimate to the operators.

I'll also give you that they should have
a) anticipated this issue and started work on it in case it was rated catastrophic by the FAA (which I find a likely, but also very disturbing scenario - as it implies they learned nothing from the MCAS and AoA disagree alert disasters)
b) they should have their entire engineering team working on parallel software and hardware fixes by now

I'm just not so sure this particular fix will cut it for EASA. I think they have significant extra work ahead of them after the FCC fix. The MAX return to flight may be ultra long haul.


What exactly would Boeing gain by not giving the airlines a realistic estimate? If they think it will be grounded until December but tell their customers September what would that do except cause logistical issues for their customers with no benefit to Boeing.

And don't say stock price. The stock will move based on when it really gets approved. The stock won't go up because Boeing says they think it will fly in 2 months.


You're kinda missing the point. Boeing won't give an estimate they know they can't deliver upon, but the earliest time they can possibly deliver, which is probably still far away from the most probable estimate, especially considering all the problems that are appearing. Besides, it really doesn't matter at all what Boeing says. Their timeline is most closely-aligned with the FAA, and EASA and everyone else will do their own recertification and it'll take even longer for them to allow the MAX to fly again. Besides even the American operators have moved the cancellations up to November, so I assume they know a bit more.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
f1restate
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:36 pm

tenHangar wrote:
MrBretz wrote:

I agree with this. That’s what we did years ago. They are probably reprogramming some C or C+ routines/objects in assembly language to get more speed. It is labor intensive but easy to check for errors with software simulations.

One of my first thoughts when I heard about the "slow response time" and $9/hour programmer issues was inappropriate programming language. Indian programmers are known for/strong in Java which is arguably slower than C or C++. (Note, I don't know what languages are actually used in 737MAX systems).
No mission critical embedded system will run Java code. It is either C or C++ . Judging by the architecture used, it would be C, with some portions written in assembly.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
 
Absynth
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:49 pm

planecane wrote:
ubeema wrote:
planecane wrote:
What exactly would Boeing gain by not giving the airlines a realistic estimate? If they think it will be grounded until December but tell their customers September what would that do except cause logistical issues for their customers with no benefit to Boeing.

And don't say stock price. The stock will move based on when it really gets approved. The stock won't go up because Boeing says they think it will fly in 2 months.

I have struggled with that thought too. Poster “Smartplane” shared some insights on the 3 key stages for aircraft acquisition upthread. What I understood is that Boeing is protecting pending/future sales pipeline, basically keeping potential customers from getting cold feet. Although they have a solid backlog to keep factory going for next couple years, sales pipeline remain a constant worry for any business that rely on manufacturing outputs.

Airlines aren't run by complete morons. They aren't going to take verbal assurances. Any new orders are going to be far enough out that either the MAX will be ungrounded by then or Boeing will be refunding progress payments or offering to apply them to deeply discounted NGs after paying a huge penalty to CFM.


Since the airlines arent counting on september you are contradicting yourself. Indeed, they aren't morons, that's why they take Boeings september claim with spades of salt.

You want to know why september is important to Boeing? That's when most of the MAX replacement lease contracts will expire, and lessors are looking for one year extensions: https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/27/lesso ... roundings/
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:08 am

Absynth wrote:
If that list doesn't concern you I doubt what list will. A lot of them are hardware issues. The heavy trim wheel, how to address that? Unreliable AoA sensors? I read that as 2 = not enough, not issues with the AoA sensor itself. And all these software and hardware issues will be addressed in two months?

By all accounts everyone is free to believe what they want. But that statement doesn't even remotely pass the sniff test.

So EASA asking for a fix for a trim wheel function that is present on hundreds of NG's operating in Europe to allow the MAX back in the air while not grounding the NG passes the sniff test?
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:22 am

par13del wrote:
Absynth wrote:
If that list doesn't concern you I doubt what list will. A lot of them are hardware issues. The heavy trim wheel, how to address that? Unreliable AoA sensors? I read that as 2 = not enough, not issues with the AoA sensor itself. And all these software and hardware issues will be addressed in two months?

By all accounts everyone is free to believe what they want. But that statement doesn't even remotely pass the sniff test.

So EASA asking for a fix for a trim wheel function that is present on hundreds of NG's operating in Europe to allow the MAX back in the air while not grounding the NG passes the sniff test?

There may be an EAD or two for the NG to come.

Boeing claimed MAX was NG tweaked, hoping to limit investigators to only look at MAX v NG differences. Instead, this opened a potential Pandora's box, allowing authorities to expand the scope of investigations to the NG.

Aren't investigators already testing NG simulators and checking certification documentation, the latter presumably for 'names' linked to MAX defects to see what they 'touched' on the NG?

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