ltbewr
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:52 am

With the release of the preliminary summary of the proposed report by the Indonesian authorities and early comments by other regulatory agencies as to the Lion Air crash, it is quite damming to Boeing. One has to be concerned about the politics behind the report, to blame Boeing and the USA's FAA and significantly less blame on the pilots. That is also due to financial issues, to bash Boeing to get basically a refund for their 737MAX's and for all the costs involved with the grounding. The European authorities seem to be the most skeptical as to the fix as approved by Boeing and the USA's FAA, they may keep MAX's grounded until early 2020 to conduct their own tests and airlines will have to have all their pilots use MAX simulators before they fly MAX's again.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/in ... spartandhp
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:15 am

XRAYretired wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Do you have an aural warning clock to help you get up for work in the morning?


A quick search of my 737 manuals on my ipad comes up with the word alarm only three times. There is the fire alarm bell, the lavatory fire alarm, and a reference about causing alarm in the cabin. So neither of these crews had multiple alarms going off in the flight deck. In fact, until they exceeded VMO, they probably only had one aural warning going off, the stick shaker on the captains side.

Would have thought 'DONT SINK' can be counted?

Ray


I stand corrected. Not sure about Lion, since the FDR data in the prelim doesn't show GPWS data, but the ET prelim shows a couple of GPWS activations around 3 minutes in. But not continuous at that point.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:22 am

ltbewr wrote:
With the release of the preliminary summary of the proposed report by the Indonesian authorities and early comments by other regulatory agencies as to the Lion Air crash, it is quite damming to Boeing. One has to be concerned about the politics behind the report, to blame Boeing and the USA's FAA and significantly less blame on the pilots. That is also due to financial issues, to bash Boeing to get basically a refund for their 737MAX's and for all the costs involved with the grounding. The European authorities seem to be the most skeptical as to the fix as approved by Boeing and the USA's FAA, they may keep MAX's grounded until early 2020 to conduct their own tests and airlines will have to have all their pilots use MAX simulators before they fly MAX's again.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/in ... spartandhp


Where does the article reference simulator training with respect to Europe? All I see is reference to Canada requiring it (likely for no reason other than to show how "tough" they are being) and the FAA not requiring it.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:29 am

morrisond wrote:
The point people are trying to make is that if that third pilot was in the front he probably would have saved it without a third person in the cockpit - he recognized the problem and knew what the fix was.

Absolute nonsense. You don't know that at all. If the third pilot was sitting in the Captain's or First Officer's seat he would be far more task saturated and much less likely to notice what's happening with the trim wheels.


morrisond wrote:
As Galaxyflyer pointed out the NYT Journalist does have a pretty impressive background.

Which makes all the facts they got wrong all the more suspicious - hence the comments from me and others that he quite clearly has an agenda.

morrisond wrote:
Yes they might have turned the Electric Trim system off but by not pulling the thrust back they made the controls unusable even if they did try the manual trim which is debatable.


A/T will idle the engines once the aircraft exceeds the bugged speed and goes into the dive.

morrisond wrote:
The issues are not as clear cut as you are trying to make them.


Right because I'm the one making most of the ridiculous, unfounded statements in this thread. :roll:
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AABusDrvr
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:17 pm

zkojq wrote:

A/T will idle the engines once the aircraft exceeds the bugged speed and goes into the dive.



Only if you are in a speed mode, not if you are in a LVL CHG climb, as ET 302 was. That's an N1 limit mode, the A/T's will maintain the command climb thrust. If you never reach the MCP selected altitude before you start descending, the A/T's will stay at climb thrust. The FD will provide commands to maintain the MCP selected speed.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:43 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
A pragmatic review of the NYT magazine article.
https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/explos ... Ye6ZG5Fw2w

And this part puts things into perspective:

Still, the author suggests that were he in a position of authority to do so, he would return the airliner to service as it's currently configured.

So pilot blame is more about saying there's nothing wrong with the plane, and therefore the certification, than pilot training. Which is exactly what Boeing PR would want to be putting out at this point in the game.

And the P&P article is exactly what Airbus PR would want to be putting out, yet we have no way of knowing if either are involved.
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morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:59 pm

zkojq wrote:
morrisond wrote:
The point people are trying to make is that if that third pilot was in the front he probably would have saved it without a third person in the cockpit - he recognized the problem and knew what the fix was.

Absolute nonsense. You don't know that at all. If the third pilot was sitting in the Captain's or First Officer's seat he would be far more task saturated and much less likely to notice what's happening with the trim wheels.


I said probably - maybe I should have said "could have" - he obviously had a different level of knowledge and as Indonesia won't release the CVR's who know's for sure. If you read through the crash report the pilot's were talking about the trim spinning - they noticed it.

zkojq wrote:
morrisond wrote:
As Galaxyflyer pointed out the NYT Journalist does have a pretty impressive background.

Which makes all the facts they got wrong all the more suspicious - hence the comments from me and others that he quite clearly has an agenda.


Yes TheMoonofAlabama is a more credible Journalistic resource. So if I start something calling TheMoonofCanada my opinion counts more instead of posting here?

zkojq wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Yes they might have turned the Electric Trim system off but by not pulling the thrust back they made the controls unusable even if they did try the manual trim which is debatable.


A/T will idle the engines once the aircraft exceeds the bugged speed and goes into the dive.


At what speed did they set the Bug then? Warp 1?

zkojq wrote:
morrisond wrote:
The issues are not as clear cut as you are trying to make them.


Right because I'm the one making most of the ridiculous, unfounded statements in this thread. :roll:


You may not agree with the sources I have cited - but they seem to be a lot better than many in this thread are pointing too.
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:13 pm

morrisond wrote:

zkojq wrote:

A/T will idle the engines once the aircraft exceeds the bugged speed and goes into the dive.


At what speed did they set the Bug then? Warp 1?



See my above post. He isn't correct in this situation, at least for ET.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:19 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
morrisond wrote:

zkojq wrote:

A/T will idle the engines once the aircraft exceeds the bugged speed and goes into the dive.


At what speed did they set the Bug then? Warp 1?



See my above post. He isn't correct in this situation, at least for ET.


I saw it - Thanks for putting the right information in - I was typing my reply while you were posting. I couldn't help myself though as I was pretty sure he was wrong and I was hoping someone would correct him - but even if he was right they sure didn't set it at a reasonable speed and I couldn't help making a crack.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:39 pm

In the article https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/in ... spartandhp
a copy of the WJS article, I find this point significant:

The latest version of Indonesia’s accident report has been shared with the FAA and NTSB for comment. U.S. officials are expected to visit Indonesia around the end of this month to finalize the document. People familiar with the process said NTSB experts don’t appear to have major disagreements with the draft. Boeing and the FAA, on the other hand, are concerned the final report will unduly emphasize design and FAA certification missteps, some of these people said.

So we have the NTSB, an agency I rather trust, not having any major disagreements with the draft report, but the FAA and Boeing are not satisfied with the prominent role design and certification plays as a reason for the crash.
So the FAA and Boeing seems to disagree with the real experts, the NTSB (and the Indonesian accident research team).

So I still think we are missing the awakening the two accidents should have brought to the FAA and Boeing.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:40 pm

And I just want to quote a paragraph of a pretty insightful comment from tech-ops, showing why proper systematic training would be useless for MCAS scenario:
Starlionblue wrote:
This idea of "not rushing into the ECAM actions" has actually been given an increased emphasis recently, at least in our training. Think first. Verbalise your conclusinos and intentions to the PM. Look up at the overhead panel first so you can double-check that the pertinent light is actually on before you got disengaging an IDG or something.

There are few situations where waiting 15-30 seconds while the aircraft is on a stable flight path will make any difference.

Think first. Something MCAS timings do not allow.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
A pragmatic review of the NYT magazine article.
https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/explos ... Ye6ZG5Fw2w

And this part puts things into perspective:

Still, the author suggests that were he in a position of authority to do so, he would return the airliner to service as it's currently configured.

So pilot blame is more about saying there's nothing wrong with the plane, and therefore the certification, than pilot training. Which is exactly what Boeing PR would want to be putting out at this point in the game.

And the P&P article is exactly what Airbus PR would want to be putting out, yet we have no way of knowing if either are involved.

Pure free speculation trying to blame Airbus.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:47 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
Revelation wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
And this part puts things into perspective:

So pilot blame is more about saying there's nothing wrong with the plane, and therefore the certification, than pilot training. Which is exactly what Boeing PR would want to be putting out at this point in the game.

And the P&P article is exactly what Airbus PR would want to be putting out, yet we have no way of knowing if either are involved.

Pure free speculation trying to blame Airbus.

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morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:49 pm

kalvado wrote:
And I just want to quote a paragraph of a pretty insightful comment from tech-ops, showing why proper systematic training would be useless for MCAS scenario:
Starlionblue wrote:
This idea of "not rushing into the ECAM actions" has actually been given an increased emphasis recently, at least in our training. Think first. Verbalise your conclusinos and intentions to the PM. Look up at the overhead panel first so you can double-check that the pertinent light is actually on before you got disengaging an IDG or something.

There are few situations where waiting 15-30 seconds while the aircraft is on a stable flight path will make any difference.

Think first. Something MCAS timings do not allow.


Neither would a classic runaway trim situation which you are required to know about as a memory item and deal with in a very short period of time on all commercial aircraft as it is the one thing most likely to kill you the fastest if not recognized and dealt with.

If you suspect something wrong with the trim system - turn it off. It's as simple as that.
 
bob75013
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:50 pm

Contrary to what has been reported on a-net

""U.S., Europe Could Approve Boeing 737 Max At Same Time

European Union Aviation Safety Agency Executive Director Patrick Ky suggested that the Boeing 737 Max could return to flight in the U.S. and EU at roughly the same time.

"We are in permanent contact with the FAA in order to remain coordinated and to be able to aim for a near-simultaneous return to flight of the aircraft in Europe and the United States," he told the French publication Air and Cosmos International over the weekend."

https://www.investors.com/news/boeing-7 ... yptr=yahoo
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
A pragmatic review of the NYT magazine article.
https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/explos ... Ye6ZG5Fw2w

And this part puts things into perspective:

Still, the author suggests that were he in a position of authority to do so, he would return the airliner to service as it's currently configured.

So pilot blame is more about saying there's nothing wrong with the plane, and therefore the certification, than pilot training. Which is exactly what Boeing PR would want to be putting out at this point in the game.

And the P&P article is exactly what Airbus PR would want to be putting out, yet we have no way of knowing if either are involved.

Correct, we cant know. But let me talk about plausibility and probability. Try to think into the heads of people in Boeing's PR department. Don't forget, they need to rebuild trust into the MAX. So what they need are unsuspicious and unconnected sources that bolster the MAX and, if possible, even play down the deadliness of the original design. So having journalists whitewashing the MAX is undeniably a priceless contribution to reach that target. Now, is it unheard that large corporations "control" the media to steer the public opinion? No, it happens. Can it be proved by anybody? No, it can't, as you correctly say, compensations to anybody can be easily hidden from anybody. So is it likely in this case? I would be astonished, if Boeing would not put some effort in appearing favorable in the media....
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kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:18 pm

morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
And I just want to quote a paragraph of a pretty insightful comment from tech-ops, showing why proper systematic training would be useless for MCAS scenario:
Starlionblue wrote:
This idea of "not rushing into the ECAM actions" has actually been given an increased emphasis recently, at least in our training. Think first. Verbalise your conclusinos and intentions to the PM. Look up at the overhead panel first so you can double-check that the pertinent light is actually on before you got disengaging an IDG or something.

There are few situations where waiting 15-30 seconds while the aircraft is on a stable flight path will make any difference.

Think first. Something MCAS timings do not allow.


Neither would a classic runaway trim situation which you are required to know about as a memory item and deal with in a very short period of time on all commercial aircraft as it is the one thing most likely to kill you the fastest if not recognized and dealt with.

If you suspect something wrong with the trim system - turn it off. It's as simple as that.

We have 2 opposite requirements
(1)think before pushing random switches - which is a generic approach for complex systems.
(2) 3 second response required by MCAS - response to high threat situation. If you see a lion, lion also sees you...

Think about what works best in modern world.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:05 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
Revelation wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
And this part puts things into perspective:

So pilot blame is more about saying there's nothing wrong with the plane, and therefore the certification, than pilot training. Which is exactly what Boeing PR would want to be putting out at this point in the game.

And the P&P article is exactly what Airbus PR would want to be putting out, yet we have no way of knowing if either are involved.

Correct, we cant know. But let me talk about plausibility and probability. Try to think into the heads of people in Boeing's PR department. Don't forget, they need to rebuild trust into the MAX. So what they need are unsuspicious and unconnected sources that bolster the MAX and, if possible, even play down the deadliness of the original design. So having journalists whitewashing the MAX is undeniably a priceless contribution to reach that target. Now, is it unheard that large corporations "control" the media to steer the public opinion? No, it happens. Can it be proved by anybody? No, it can't, as you correctly say, compensations to anybody can be easily hidden from anybody. So is it likely in this case? I would be astonished, if Boeing would not put some effort in appearing favorable in the media....

My $0.02: Someone like Langewiesche with a detailed record of decades of journalism is not on the take, and attempts to suggest otherwise are coming from people who simply do not want his article to gain any consideration. Also, suggesting NYT is on the take is another form of shooting the messenger, and even less convincing given that NYT has published many pieces that Boeing PR would not approve.

Langewiesche has a strong opinion, as does Goyer. Both should gain consideration. Suggesting either or both are being paid off is a cheap shot and an absurdity given their decades long track records. In some regard their opinions are in alignment, but to discuss that further we'll need to use a different forum.
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planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:10 pm

kalvado wrote:
morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
And I just want to quote a paragraph of a pretty insightful comment from tech-ops, showing why proper systematic training would be useless for MCAS scenario:

Think first. Something MCAS timings do not allow.


Neither would a classic runaway trim situation which you are required to know about as a memory item and deal with in a very short period of time on all commercial aircraft as it is the one thing most likely to kill you the fastest if not recognized and dealt with.

If you suspect something wrong with the trim system - turn it off. It's as simple as that.

We have 2 opposite requirements
(1)think before pushing random switches - which is a generic approach for complex systems.
(2) 3 second response required by MCAS - response to high threat situation. If you see a lion, lion also sees you...

Think about what works best in modern world.


All situations are not the same. A pilot can't take 25-30 seconds to assess the situation when an engine fails on takeoff. They must react quickly. The same is true for a "real" runaway stabilizer (as some on this thread like to call it). Therefore, there are not two opposite requirements. The requirements are different depending on the type of failure.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:14 pm

kalvado wrote:
morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
And I just want to quote a paragraph of a pretty insightful comment from tech-ops, showing why proper systematic training would be useless for MCAS scenario:

Think first. Something MCAS timings do not allow.


Neither would a classic runaway trim situation which you are required to know about as a memory item and deal with in a very short period of time on all commercial aircraft as it is the one thing most likely to kill you the fastest if not recognized and dealt with.

If you suspect something wrong with the trim system - turn it off. It's as simple as that.

We have 2 opposite requirements
(1)think before pushing random switches - which is a generic approach for complex systems.
(2) 3 second response required by MCAS - response to high threat situation. If you see a lion, lion also sees you...

Think about what works best in modern world.


(1) Turning off electric Trim is not flipping random switches - as has been reported on this forum MAX and 737 Pilots regularly turn off Electric Trim and use the manual trim wheel when hand flying to keep there skills sharp.
(2) Easy - Kill the Lion by turning off Electric Trim - it only takes a second to do so and the Lion is definitely dead.
 
TigerFlyer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:25 pm

William Langewiesche had it exactly right: "Airmanship” is an anachronistic word, but it is applied without prejudice to women as well as men. Its full meaning is difficult to convey. It includes a visceral sense of navigation, an operational understanding of weather and weather information, the ability to form mental maps of traffic flows, fluency in the nuance of radio communications and, especially, a deep appreciation for the interplay between energy, inertia and wings. Airplanes are living things. The best pilots do not sit in cockpits so much as strap them on."

Yeah, there were shortcomings in the MAX design and engineering, but it should not have brought down these aircraft.

Langewiesche's qualifications are impeccable. In addition to being an accomplished pilot and author in his own right, his father, Wolfgang, wrote "Stick and Rudder: An Explanation of the Art of Flying" in 1944. It is the Old Testament of flight instruction. And yes, flying remains an "art." It cannot be reduced to idiot-proof button pushing.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:25 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
In the article https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/in ... spartandhp
a copy of the WJS article, I find this point significant:

The latest version of Indonesia’s accident report has been shared with the FAA and NTSB for comment. U.S. officials are expected to visit Indonesia around the end of this month to finalize the document. People familiar with the process said NTSB experts don’t appear to have major disagreements with the draft. Boeing and the FAA, on the other hand, are concerned the final report will unduly emphasize design and FAA certification missteps, some of these people said.

So we have the NTSB, an agency I rather trust, not having any major disagreements with the draft report, but the FAA and Boeing are not satisfied with the prominent role design and certification plays as a reason for the crash.
So the FAA and Boeing seems to disagree with the real experts, the NTSB (and the Indonesian accident research team).

So I still think we are missing the awakening the two accidents should have brought to the FAA and Boeing.


I take it you missed this part

"U.S. air-crash investigators are preparing to announce a handful of separate safety recommendations, ranging from bolstering the manual flying skills of pilots to enhancing FAA vetting of new aircraft designs.

The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board is expected around the end of the month to call for improvements to cockpit training and crew decision making, according to industry and government officials."
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:38 pm

And as well the knee jerk assertions that EASA was going to roll over and play dead or was going to wage full war on the FAA have both been demonstrated false. As reasonable people would have expected.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:07 pm

morrisond wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
In the article https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/in ... spartandhp
a copy of the WJS article, I find this point significant:

The latest version of Indonesia’s accident report has been shared with the FAA and NTSB for comment. U.S. officials are expected to visit Indonesia around the end of this month to finalize the document. People familiar with the process said NTSB experts don’t appear to have major disagreements with the draft. Boeing and the FAA, on the other hand, are concerned the final report will unduly emphasize design and FAA certification missteps, some of these people said.

So we have the NTSB, an agency I rather trust, not having any major disagreements with the draft report, but the FAA and Boeing are not satisfied with the prominent role design and certification plays as a reason for the crash.
So the FAA and Boeing seems to disagree with the real experts, the NTSB (and the Indonesian accident research team).

So I still think we are missing the awakening the two accidents should have brought to the FAA and Boeing.


I take it you missed this part

"U.S. air-crash investigators are preparing to announce a handful of separate safety recommendations, ranging from bolstering the manual flying skills of pilots to enhancing FAA vetting of new aircraft designs.

The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board is expected around the end of the month to call for improvements to cockpit training and crew decision making, according to industry and government officials."


I did not miss that part.
It is only that you are obsessed with putting the blame on the pilots and do not seem to realize, that the USA based NTSB is completely satisfied with putting the main reason of the crash on the design by Boeing and oversight by the FAA.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:12 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
And as well the knee jerk assertions that EASA was going to roll over and play dead or was going to wage full war on the FAA have both been demonstrated false. As reasonable people would have expected.

Some will be disappointed if EASA's foot doesn't end up on Boeing's neck. I do think a reasonable middle ground will be found. Ky may have spoken too loudly or too soon for his point of view to prevail. Time will tell.
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Chemist
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:16 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
morrisond wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
In the article https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/in ... spartandhp
a copy of the WJS article, I find this point significant:

The latest version of Indonesia’s accident report has been shared with the FAA and NTSB for comment. U.S. officials are expected to visit Indonesia around the end of this month to finalize the document. People familiar with the process said NTSB experts don’t appear to have major disagreements with the draft. Boeing and the FAA, on the other hand, are concerned the final report will unduly emphasize design and FAA certification missteps, some of these people said.

So we have the NTSB, an agency I rather trust, not having any major disagreements with the draft report, but the FAA and Boeing are not satisfied with the prominent role design and certification plays as a reason for the crash.
So the FAA and Boeing seems to disagree with the real experts, the NTSB (and the Indonesian accident research team).

So I still think we are missing the awakening the two accidents should have brought to the FAA and Boeing.


I take it you missed this part

"U.S. air-crash investigators are preparing to announce a handful of separate safety recommendations, ranging from bolstering the manual flying skills of pilots to enhancing FAA vetting of new aircraft designs.

The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board is expected around the end of the month to call for improvements to cockpit training and crew decision making, according to industry and government officials."


I did not miss that part.
It is only that you are obsessed with putting the blame on the pilots and do not seem to realize, that the USA based NTSB is completely satisfied with putting the main reason of the crash on the design by Boeing and oversight by the FAA.


I've seen morrisonnd say that he thinks Boeing is predominantly responsible (morrison, correct me if I'm wrong), so it's not accurate to say that he is obsessed with blaming the pilots.
I agree with him though that pilots unable to follow basic training and concepts (don't overspeed) should not be ignored, either.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
And as well the knee jerk assertions that EASA was going to roll over and play dead or was going to wage full war on the FAA have both been demonstrated false. As reasonable people would have expected.

Some will be disappointed if EASA's foot doesn't end up on Boeing's neck. I do think a reasonable middle ground will be found. Ky may have spoken too loudly or too soon for his point of view to prevail. Time will tell.


I assume that the concerns of the EASA have been taken seriously and Boeing is working on solutions.
 
hivue
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:21 pm

kalvado wrote:
We have 2 opposite requirements
(1)think before pushing random switches - which is a generic approach for complex systems.
(2) 3 second response required by MCAS - response to high threat situation. If you see a lion, lion also sees you...

Think about what works best in modern world.


What works best in the modern world is what always has worked best. Take as much time as you have available to decide on your course of action, but not any more. If you have 3 minutes, decide on your course of action in 3 minutes. It you have 3 seconds, decide on your course of action in 3 seconds.

I read an anecdote somewhere -- I think it was in the Neil Armstrong biography -- about a test pilot who was asked why he always sounded so calm on the radio in an emergency. He said that he would count to 10 out loud before keying the mic to give is voice time to calm down. If he couldn't reach 10 he didn't want to be talking to anyone anyway.

Speaking of Armstrong, he had a well know reputation for talking a long time to make decisions. Yet he ejected safely from the Lunar Landing Training Vehicle at 200 feet AGL, a decision that met all the criteria of being "split-second." Apparently, he had thought things out ahead of time and knew that was the only option if the contraption ever acted up.
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kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:24 pm

planecane wrote:
kalvado wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Neither would a classic runaway trim situation which you are required to know about as a memory item and deal with in a very short period of time on all commercial aircraft as it is the one thing most likely to kill you the fastest if not recognized and dealt with.

If you suspect something wrong with the trim system - turn it off. It's as simple as that.

We have 2 opposite requirements
(1)think before pushing random switches - which is a generic approach for complex systems.
(2) 3 second response required by MCAS - response to high threat situation. If you see a lion, lion also sees you...

Think about what works best in modern world.


All situations are not the same. A pilot can't take 25-30 seconds to assess the situation when an engine fails on takeoff. They must react quickly. The same is true for a "real" runaway stabilizer (as some on this thread like to call it). Therefore, there are not two opposite requirements. The requirements are different depending on the type of failure.

All situations are not created equal, that's for sure. But that is exactly why certain things are trained in a sim quite often, and some are read-once.
Fully expect runaway trim, in all variations - including MCAS 1.0, to be added as a mandatory exercise for any 737 type as an aftermath.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:27 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Revelation wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
And as well the knee jerk assertions that EASA was going to roll over and play dead or was going to wage full war on the FAA have both been demonstrated false. As reasonable people would have expected.

Some will be disappointed if EASA's foot doesn't end up on Boeing's neck. I do think a reasonable middle ground will be found. Ky may have spoken too loudly or too soon for his point of view to prevail. Time will tell.


I assume that the concerns of the EASA have been taken seriously and Boeing is working on solutions.
sounds right. Maybe Ky's message the other week found the mark and Boeing woke up?

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PITingres
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:04 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
... It is only that you are obsessed with putting the blame on the pilots and do not seem to realize, that the USA based NTSB is completely satisfied with putting the main reason of the crash on the design by Boeing and oversight by the FAA.


Put the blame? As if "blame" is a single thing, like a beachball, that can only belong to one thing? Please. morrisond is not obsessed with blaming only the pilots, I would say he is attempting to prevent assigning singular blame as it if were a Bullwinkle-style bomb to be handed from one to another.

There are multiple causes. MCAS and its crappy implementation is one and that is not in dispute. The fact that a pilot, admittedly under stress, could not manage to just turn the bloody thing off and hand fly the airplane certainly deserves mention as a contributing factor if not the proximal cause of the Lion accident.

You keep looking for The One Thing To Blame. It doesn't work like that in the real world. MCAS is the thing-to-be-fixed, but when considering causes, the pilots (meaning, either their actions, or their training, or both) do not get to get off scot-free.
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Strato2
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:52 pm

Boeing is paying 144500 USD to the families of the dead.

https://news.sky.com/story/boeing-to-pa ... s-11818039
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:53 pm

morrisond wrote:
(1) Turning off electric Trim is not flipping random switches - as has been reported on this forum MAX and 737 Pilots regularly turn off Electric Trim and use the manual trim wheel when hand flying to keep there skills sharp.

Really ? Searching on the internet I found the exact opposite:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-regulator-insight/regulators-knew-before-crashes-that-737-max-trim-control-was-confusing-in-some-conditions-document-idUSKCN1RA0DP
“It would be very unusual to use the trim wheel in flight. I have only used manual trim once in the simulator,” said a 737 pilot
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:54 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
(1) Turning off electric Trim is not flipping random switches - as has been reported on this forum MAX and 737 Pilots regularly turn off Electric Trim and use the manual trim wheel when hand flying to keep there skills sharp.

Really ? Searching on the internet I found the exact opposite:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-regulator-insight/regulators-knew-before-crashes-that-737-max-trim-control-was-confusing-in-some-conditions-document-idUSKCN1RA0DP
“It would be very unusual to use the trim wheel in flight. I have only used manual trim once in the simulator,” said a 737 pilot
maybe they use the manual trim for fitness exercises?

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morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:05 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
(1) Turning off electric Trim is not flipping random switches - as has been reported on this forum MAX and 737 Pilots regularly turn off Electric Trim and use the manual trim wheel when hand flying to keep there skills sharp.

Really ? Searching on the internet I found the exact opposite:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-regulator-insight/regulators-knew-before-crashes-that-737-max-trim-control-was-confusing-in-some-conditions-document-idUSKCN1RA0DP
“It would be very unusual to use the trim wheel in flight. I have only used manual trim once in the simulator,” said a 737 pilot


Sorry I missed a word - it should have read "some MAX and 737 pilots"

"Only once in an simulator" - that does not even rise to the standard of pathetic for any pilot or training system of an Commercial airplane.
Last edited by morrisond on Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:10 pm

oschkosch wrote:
maybe they use the manual trim for fitness exercises?

maybe more should?
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:37 pm

morrisond wrote:
"Only once in an simulator" - that does not even rise to the standard of pathetic for any pilot or training system of an Commercial airplane.

What fact did you have to support your claim ?
 
barney captain
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:08 pm

IMHO, the NYT article was spot on.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:06 pm

morrisond wrote:
I take it you missed this part

"U.S. air-crash investigators are preparing to announce a handful of separate safety recommendations, ranging from bolstering the manual flying skills of pilots to enhancing FAA vetting of new aircraft designs.

The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board is expected around the end of the month to call for improvements to cockpit training and crew decision making, according to industry and government officials."


That's all well and good, but the problem is the NTSB can only make recommendations, they have no teeth to enforce them. Many of their recommendations are simply ignored by the FAA.
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sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:23 pm

Why was the first activation of MCAS for the JT610 crash more than 10 sec duration? From the report DFDR plot, the AND iteration (~23:22:42) looks about 1.3 ticks long. For 12 sec per tick, thats about 15-16 sec. Would this be another type of failure that hasnt been accounted for?
Yet the text of the report says 10 seconds.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
WPIAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:51 pm

IADFCO wrote:
WPIAeroGuy wrote:

[...]
2a. While everyone is looking at this crash with 20/20 hindsight, imagine your an engineer at Boeing circa 2012. I feel like no one actually understands how hard it would be to not only predict this failure mode, but convince superiors it was dangerous enough to warrant a redesign. Let's pretend you're pretty much clairvoyant, and you predict the EXACT failure mode that happened in the LionAir crash.
[...]



I don't think it would be so hard to figure out what would happen if your sensor fails high or fails low. I'm sure you have your Simulink model (or whatever Boeing uses) with at least a linearized model of the aircraft. Put a do/for loop over all the sensors, for each consider fail high/fail low, integrate the equations of motion for a bunch of flight conditions and step inputs with a paper pilot model. Flag all the results that break linearity for a further look by a human analyst. We run sims with 100 states and the equivalent of thousands of panels in real time on a high-end desktop with a good GPU with no particular attention to computational efficiency, and even so we could run hundreds if not thousands of simulations a day on a $2K desktop.

I don't know about design practices in commercial aviation because I don't work in that area, but I find very hard to believe that Boeing could not figure out what would happen with a failed vane, and in fact IIRC none of the whistleblowers have claimed that.



Did you intentionally not quote the rest of what I wrote so you could instead answer the question you wanted? They couldn't predict the failure of the pilots not the sensor.
-WPIAeroGuy
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:56 pm

It is end of September now. I assume the upcoming Holiday Season can be considered "lost" for 737MAX purposes?
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:26 am

WPIAeroGuy wrote:
They couldn't predict the failure of the pilots not the sensor.

Could, and moreover - should have done so; and hopefully will face consequences on both corporate and personal level for failure to do so.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:30 am

Bloomberg: FAA Chief Stresses Need for Better Plane Design and Piloting seems to be the first on-line report from the Montreal IATA briefing.

The only part I found interesting was a question asked to the EASA chief:

When asked after the meeting if he still hoped the 737 Max could go back into service at roughly the same time in Europe as in the U.S., EASA Executive Director Patrick Ky said “that’s what we are working on.”

“We need a certain number of things, which were detailed by” the FAA during the meeting, he said. “I have nothing to add to what I said already.”

Unfortunately these things that the FAA detailed aren't in the report, but he has nothing to add to what he has said already, I presume these are the four items from his earlier presentation.

So IMO the only think relatively new is that he is stating the goal for a unified ungrounding.
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WPIAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:14 am

kalvado wrote:
WPIAeroGuy wrote:
They couldn't predict the failure of the pilots not the sensor.

Could, and moreover - should have done so; and hopefully will face consequences on both corporate and personal level for failure to do so.


I could not disagree more. I'm sorry, but if you're an engineer in 2012 there is no way in hell you would convince anyone that the runaway trim NNC would not apply and would not resolve the problem. You want to hold people personally liable even though the airplane met the certification requirements at the time? You have no idea of the implications that would bring. This wasn't a structural member that was undersized and failed because someone screwed up a calculation. This is trying to predict human behavior in an extremely rare and unique situation. And the closest example you would have had at the time (runaway trim) indicated that it should be a non-issue.

And for the all people saying that MCAS is a band aid, or some wacky idea Boeing had to keep the 737 in production you should know that the Piper Cheyenne had a stability augmentation system that activated between 125 and 100 knots. This is far from a new idea or unique to the 737. Read the following article, its eerily similar to the MCAS situation:

https://airfactsjournal.com/2013/05/the ... e-balance/
-WPIAeroGuy
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:53 am

WPIAeroGuy wrote:
kalvado wrote:
WPIAeroGuy wrote:
They couldn't predict the failure of the pilots not the sensor.

Could, and moreover - should have done so; and hopefully will face consequences on both corporate and personal level for failure to do so.


I could not disagree more. I'm sorry, but if you're an engineer in 2012 there is no way in hell you would convince anyone that the runaway trim NNC would not apply and would not resolve the problem. You want to hold people personally liable even though the airplane met the certification requirements at the time? You have no idea of the implications that would bring. This wasn't a structural member that was undersized and failed because someone screwed up a calculation. This is trying to predict human behavior in an extremely rare and unique situation. And the closest example you would have had at the time (runaway trim) indicated that it should be a non-issue.

And for the all people saying that MCAS is a band aid, or some wacky idea Boeing had to keep the 737 in production you should know that the Piper Cheyenne had a stability augmentation system that activated between 125 and 100 knots. This is far from a new idea or unique to the 737. Read the following article, its eerily similar to the MCAS situation:

https://airfactsjournal.com/2013/05/the ... e-balance/


I was an engineer in 2012.

There's no way in hell's hell you would convince anyone that Boeing didnt know the failure modes of MCAS, much less a single sensor for a system that could push the nose down was acceptable by any stretch of the imagination.

But what about the checklists? Plane makers dont design planes from checklists, unless you're Boeing and you promised an airline or two they wouldnt need to train their pilots.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:27 am

WPIAeroGuy wrote:
kalvado wrote:
WPIAeroGuy wrote:
They couldn't predict the failure of the pilots not the sensor.

Could, and moreover - should have done so; and hopefully will face consequences on both corporate and personal level for failure to do so.


I could not disagree more. I'm sorry, but if you're an engineer in 2012 there is no way in hell you would convince anyone that the runaway trim NNC would not apply and would not resolve the problem. You want to hold people personally liable even though the airplane met the certification requirements at the time? You have no idea of the implications that would bring. This wasn't a structural member that was undersized and failed because someone screwed up a calculation. This is trying to predict human behavior in an extremely rare and unique situation. And the closest example you would have had at the time (runaway trim) indicated that it should be a non-issue.

And for the all people saying that MCAS is a band aid, or some wacky idea Boeing had to keep the 737 in production you should know that the Piper Cheyenne had a stability augmentation system that activated between 125 and 100 knots. This is far from a new idea or unique to the 737. Read the following article, its eerily similar to the MCAS situation:

https://airfactsjournal.com/2013/05/the ... e-balance/

To begin with, problematic version of MCAS reportedly was born in 2017, after flight testing started. And while it could be an honest mistake, whoever eliminated second input from the system sure as hell didn't run a full analysis of failure mode for that single sensor. I assume they were in a rush to keep test frames flying. If they did that analysis, and actually thought that multiple systems depending on a single sensor going crazy at the same time - and commanding control inputs - is OK, it paints too sad of a picture of Boeing development teams. I can understand mistakes in a rush, and to keep those small leftovers of trust in Boeing intact, lets hope that is the case.
On a separate note, human-machine interfaces were seriously studied over pat 50 years. If there is no HMI team at Boeing, then again, Boeing is decades behind the curve and needs to start catching up as soon as possible. More likely MCAS in its production form wasn't vetted by HMI people, though.
And I am really surprised there was no Roger Boisjoly - and
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:38 am

Revelation wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
Revelation wrote:
And the P&P article is exactly what Airbus PR would want to be putting out, yet we have no way of knowing if either are involved.

Correct, we cant know. But let me talk about plausibility and probability. Try to think into the heads of people in Boeing's PR department. Don't forget, they need to rebuild trust into the MAX. So what they need are unsuspicious and unconnected sources that bolster the MAX and, if possible, even play down the deadliness of the original design. So having journalists whitewashing the MAX is undeniably a priceless contribution to reach that target. Now, is it unheard that large corporations "control" the media to steer the public opinion? No, it happens. Can it be proved by anybody? No, it can't, as you correctly say, compensations to anybody can be easily hidden from anybody. So is it likely in this case? I would be astonished, if Boeing would not put some effort in appearing favorable in the media....

My $0.02: Someone like Langewiesche with a detailed record of decades of journalism is not on the take, and attempts to suggest otherwise are coming from people who simply do not want his article to gain any consideration. Also, suggesting NYT is on the take is another form of shooting the messenger, and even less convincing given that NYT has published many pieces that Boeing PR would not approve.

Langewiesche has a strong opinion, as does Goyer. Both should gain consideration. Suggesting either or both are being paid off is a cheap shot and an absurdity given their decades long track records. In some regard their opinions are in alignment, but to discuss that further we'll need to use a different forum.

First you say, "we have no way of knowing of either are involved" then you suddenly know "that there is no involvement". Changing the opinion as it suits your narrative?
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airtechy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:43 am

barney captain wrote:
IMHO, the NYT article was spot on.


I agree with all his technical and pilotage write up. I assume he has a source for his remarks derived from the data recorders. He basically is saying that every company and government entity has some level of responsibility for the two accidents, but when the problem occurred in the cockpits the pilots should have been able to handle it. That they couldn't handle what was obviously a case of runaway trim without referring to a checklist is astonishing as the fix is a MEMORY item .. use the CUTOFF switches. Runaway trim has been recognized as an issue that requires immediate action for years .. ever since a motor was added to the manual trim wheels. That's why the yoke has two trim switches wired in series so that if one fails stuck the other one will halt the trimming action. The fact that MCAS caused an intermittent trimming action is irrelevant (and a red herring) as any number of failures can cause that including shorts, opens in wiring or failure of the autopilot itself. A bubble chart of possible trim failures would lead to one fix .. use the CUTOFF switches, use the backup manual trim, and then deal with any other issues.

As an electrical engineer .. and a pilot .. who has designed similar flight control systems, I do find it hard to understand why .. if what has been published is correct .. Boeing designed the MCAS system the way they did. I'm sure at this point .. and with 20/20 hindsight .. they don't either. But their really big failure in the MCAS case was expecting a worldwide pilot base of varying capability to be able to handle a failure that manifested itself as an obvious runaway trim fault. It's sad but the reality is that pilots are trained around automation and protections which can cover for lower pilot skills ninety nine percent of the time but not in the one percent where basic skills are really needed. Maybe they were never learned in the first place.

Jim
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:21 am

WPIAeroGuy wrote:
kalvado wrote:
WPIAeroGuy wrote:
They couldn't predict the failure of the pilots not the sensor.

Could, and moreover - should have done so; and hopefully will face consequences on both corporate and personal level for failure to do so.


I could not disagree more. I'm sorry, but if you're an engineer in 2012 there is no way in hell you would convince anyone that the runaway trim NNC would not apply and would not resolve the problem. You want to hold people personally liable even though the airplane met the certification requirements at the time?


disagree all you want. It has no push through to reality.

MCAS on MAX did not meet certification requirements.
Certification was based on FAA looking left and whistling while Boeing management looked right and whistled an tuneless tune
after they set an uneducated intern on the job ( MCAS ) to have the desired result.
Additionally processes at the FAA and in interaction with Boeing did not meet the "task set" by law.
If not Boeing the last backstop FAA should have put a stop to that deficient design proposal.

That actually is the thing EASA balks at. FAA nonconformance to their own rule set. System is broken.
Murphy is an optimist

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