sccutler
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:04 pm

It was operating as a Part 91 flight - not on any Part 135 cert. The aircraft was owned by a local LLC as a holding company for a family. It is a tragedy of terrible consequence, a blessing that no one was in the hangar.

The Falcon 50 in the hangar is certainly bound to be damaged beyond economic repair; the helicopter was pulled out, but also has likely heat damage. There is a BBJ that is based in this hangar as well, but it was not in the hangar at the time of the crash.

My ramp is directly across the field from the accident site, and I took a great many photos with my longest lens (a 200mm), but while there is quite a debris field to the north of the hangar, there were no pieces big enough to be immediately recognizable as airplane parts.

A near-new plane, flown by qualified pilots, benign weather. Defies easy explanation.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
flightwriter
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:10 pm

cdin844 wrote:
The article linked above said the aircraft veered left before crashing. Pretty much all takeoffs from this airport make a very quick turn to the left, so I wonder if the pilot was attempting to do that?


The takeoff clearance included a left turnout to 050, so it's possible. As you note, most traffic off 15 is sent left to avoid traffic off DAL and for the Bush TFR.

However, given the distance from the runway end to the accident site I don't believe the aircraft would have climbed high enough to initiate the turn. Perhaps of note, there have been at least four takeoff crashes involving King Airs since 2014, including the A90 crash in Hawaii last month. (The other three were BE200s, including this one.) In all four cases the aircraft rolled left - into the critical engine - prior to crashing.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:43 pm

I was going to ask if it had auto-feather, I see I've been beaten to the idea.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
cdin844
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:50 am

From this article: https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/NTSB- ... ssion=true

Snell said he remembers hearing both engines running, but at a lower power setting.

"If you have a house fan: Speed one is low, speed four is high. When you're taking off you should be at a three or four, and this sounded like it was at a one or a two," he said. "But it didn't sound like it was one engine operating at a high speed, like as if they lost one."

According to Snell, the plane was simply too low and too slow on takeoff.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:05 am

NTSB said that they "were able to determine that the landing gear was down at the time of impact".

There ya go.

NTSB didn't give us the significance of that fact, but our King Air drivers know what that means if there was an engine failure.

Can't rule out things like power setting, etc., of course, although it would seem bizarre that they wouldn't notice reduced thrust on a takeoff with a substantial percentage of the useable weight used, and/or that they weren't accelerating normally. With a bunch of hours in the type, one can "feel" this stuff.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:24 am

D L X wrote:
Is it a political campaign?

It seems that there are people that know who owns this plane. What is preventing people from sharing it?


https://nypost.com/2019/07/01/family-of ... NYPTwitter

She worked on some of Trump's properties as an interior designer. Real political. :sarcastic:
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die.
 
D L X
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:54 am

NIKV69 wrote:
D L X wrote:
Is it a political campaign?

It seems that there are people that know who owns this plane. What is preventing people from sharing it?


https://nypost.com/2019/07/01/family-of ... NYPTwitter

She worked on some of Trump's properties as an interior designer. Real political. :sarcastic:

I think you misunderstood me, but it’s not important.
 
tcfc424
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:14 pm

Local Dallas news station WFAA mentions comments made during the press conference. At 12 seconds prior to the crash, there was a crew comment consistent with confusion, then at 8 seconds prior a comment about a problem with the left engine.

Source: https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/recor ... 18ae31b678
 
hivue
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:28 pm

I have a question for those with the expertise to answer it: Exactly how do-able is safe recovery from a failure of the critical engine at precisely the most critical instant of takeoff in a King Air 350 being properly operated, heavily (not over-) loaded, in benign weather? Should any fully qualified King Air pilot (I believe the airplane is certified for single pilot operation) out there be expected to do it 100% of the time or do these particular circumstances push the situation way out toward the margin where it takes an especially skilled and alert pilot to pull it off?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:36 pm

hivue wrote:
I have a question for those with the expertise to answer it: Exactly how do-able is safe recovery from a failure of the critical engine at precisely the most critical instant of takeoff in a King Air 350 being properly operated, heavily (not over-) loaded, in benign weather? Should any fully qualified King Air pilot (I believe the airplane is certified for single pilot operation) out there be expected to do it 100% of the time or do these particular circumstances push the situation way out toward the margin where it takes an especially skilled and alert pilot to pull it off?


Not a fixed-wing pilot. Know some King Air drivers. Best friend owned one for years, using professional pilots to take him places on business. Consistent message: Fly it by the numbers with engine failure at rotation and you're fine. Fail to retract the landing gear, it might be a very bad day. The 350i has auto-feather, so the "feather" step of the checklist is eliminated on that model. One of our members with a lot of time driving that type posted about this exact question above, and I didn't comment then because he was a first-person authority on an issue whose comments were consistent with what I had heard.

As we see over and over in GA accidents, licensed commercial pilots routinely make fundamental errors in stress situations that are perhaps reflective of some level of complacency. I was taught to fly rotorcraft like the engine was going to quit or the tail rotor was going to fail at any second, on every flight. Not to fly with white lips and teeth clenched, but to maintain a consistent awareness of what you are going to do if certain things happen.

I used to love Captain Dave's FL390 Blog. Dave was the kind of guy you'd like to have fly your family. A zillion hours in type, a fan of stick-and-rudder skills and a critic of training that downplays them, and the kind of guy who says this on a blog: "The four operational scenarios that I worry about every flight are: 1. Catastrophic engine failure at a critical moment during take-off. 2. Excessive energy (velocity) at landing leading to an overrun. 3. Severe turbulence, either expected (storms) or unexpected (clear air turbulence). 4. Fire on the ground or in-flight."

AND "The problem comes with the old saying familiarity breeds contempt. Modern airliners are reliable beasts with good safety records. This leads to thinking about that good looking flight attendant in the back rather than what will I do if number one engine turns into hot shrapnel at 160 m.p.h. or where could we land right now if the rear galley catches on fire?"

AND " I am always looking for little uh-ohs that might become big Uh-Ohs."

Not everybody flies like that, in rotorcraft and in fixed-wing. And we see the results every once in a while. Like the owner of the Philly Inquirer, whose trusted and beloved Chief Pilot, it turned out, had long not bothered to use the checklist anymore, and didn't typically check the freedom of the controls before takeoff (!!!). The publisher and others were killed when a jammed elevator (which would have been discovered with a simple push and pull of the stick before takeoff), combined with a glacial response to the unfolding issues, caused a runway overrun into a ravine.

Not saying that complacency of any level was the cause here, but the "confusion" issue noted by the NTSB in the cockpit conversation" gets me looking in that direction.

QUOTES from "Excessive Energy" (9/18/2012) at http://flightlevel390.weebly.com/blog.html
 
Sooner787
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:16 pm

WFAA news in DFW released more video of the crash Monday night 7/15

Must advise the video isn't for the faint of heart :(

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/video ... 9a8434f160
 
D L X
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:20 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
WFAA news in DFW released more video of the crash Monday night 7/15

Must advise the video isn't for the faint of heart :(

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/video ... 9a8434f160


Horrifying. They went in inverted. The dashcam video from the parking lot is crystal clear -- they flipped over the left engine, and it happened very quickly.
 
mcdu
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:41 pm

Appears the gear is down in the video. That is not helpful in a V1 cut. They were pretty doomed with all that drag from the the gear. The speed needed with the gear down and all those people on board to avoid the VMC demo they conducted would most likely have meant a zero climb rate if they had done everything else perfectly.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:48 pm

Gear is down. They didn't fly it by the numbers. It drifted left and inverted. I guess there's not much more to see here.
 
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jetfuel
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:45 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
zeke wrote:
Reminds me of this king air accident, crashed into a building adjacent to the airport soon after takeoff with and engine failure.

Gear was not retracted following the failure, failed to climb.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/in ... -2017-024/

Image
It does. In that case it was probably pilot error.


I need to point out that in this accident BOTH engines were operating with high power ie. NO engine failure

Actual Cause - The ATSB found that the pilot did not detect that the aircraft’s rudder trim was in the full nose-left position prior to take-off. The position of the rudder trim resulted in a loss of directional control and had a significant impact on the aircraft’s climb performance in the latter part of the flight.
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
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longhauler
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:04 pm

jetfuel wrote:
Actual Cause - The ATSB found that the pilot did not detect that the aircraft’s rudder trim was in the full nose-left position prior to take-off. The position of the rudder trim resulted in a loss of directional control and had a significant impact on the aircraft’s climb performance in the latter part of the flight.


Notwithstanding checking trim positions is likely on the checklist .... why (or how) on earth would rudder trim be left in such an unusual position during the previous flight? And ... if used ... why wouldn't it be returned to zero at the end of the flight?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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zeke
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:03 pm

longhauler wrote:
Notwithstanding checking trim positions is likely on the checklist .... why (or how) on earth would rudder trim be left in such an unusual position during the previous flight? And ... if used ... why wouldn't it be returned to zero at the end of the flight?


Heard it was just sold from one organisation to another, the position would be from maintenance for the prepurchase inspection.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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longhauler
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:21 am

zeke wrote:
Heard it was just sold from one organisation to another, the position would be from maintenance for the prepurchase inspection.

A frightening thought, but certainly the holes in the Swiss Cheese would have aligned!

I have never flown a King Air, I am curious if the rudder trim would not start to be aerodynamically apparent during the take-off roll. But looking at the video, they were not airborne very long. I can't imagine being able to troubleshoot in such a short time. And let's face it, with such strong yaw, a power loss would be one's first assumption.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
D L X
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:40 am

longhauler wrote:
zeke wrote:
Heard it was just sold from one organisation to another, the position would be from maintenance for the prepurchase inspection.

A frightening thought, but certainly the holes in the Swiss Cheese would have aligned!

I have never flown a King Air, I am curious if the rudder trim would not start to be aerodynamically apparent during the take-off roll. But looking at the video, they were not airborne very long. I can't imagine being able to troubleshoot in such a short time. And let's face it, with such strong yaw, a power loss would be one's first assumption.

Are you guys both talking about the Texas crash or the Australian crash? I don't think we know that the rudder trim was deflected in the Texas crash.
 
worldranger
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:38 am

A number of airlines have had incidents of aborted take-off due config warning on application of TO thrust - the reason; full scale deflection positioning on rudder trim from previous inbound crew to counter-act yaw from long single engine taxi. Not picked up in pre flight checks.
 
mcdu
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:16 am

worldranger wrote:
A number of airlines have had incidents of aborted take-off due config warning on application of TO thrust - the reason; full scale deflection positioning on rudder trim from previous inbound crew to counter-act yaw from long single engine taxi. Not picked up in pre flight checks.


Someone used rudder trim to assist in a Single Engine taxi? They should have their license revoked. I have never seen that in almost 40 years of flying. That is unsafe in so many ways and very poor airmanship.
 
Stickpusher
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Re: Ten dead after King Air crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:51 pm

longhauler wrote:
...let's face it, with such strong yaw, a power loss would be one's first assumption.


That strong yaw reminds me of stall training, back in a time when you actually did the stall as well, rather than just feeling out the approach to one.

I'm sure you know this stuff, but to anyone else...

The most frightening version for me was the stall in a climbing turn when you're not using enough power to achieve the climb but you're maintaining the climb attitude, so the airspeed is dropping and the aircraft begins to slip into the turn. In a right turn the airflow moves around to the right side of the nose as you fall into the turn, so you counteract the yaw-inward weathercocking tendency with a bit of "top rudder". Then the "unexpected" happens and the raised wing stalls, flipping you out of the right-hand turn into a left-hand spin. It's extraordinarily disorientating first time it happens. In small singles it can be unbelievably rapid.

The fuselage tracking sideways masks off some airflow to the raised wing, not to mention that stall speed is higher in a turn anyway, and even dihedral also makes the raised wing more critical.

Seeing the yaw on that King Air really brought back that experience of being taught about stalls in climbing turns. The King Air wasn't climbing so much, but if as people have said it's more critical at that phase of flight in general, then the yaw might have been all that was needed to mask off enough to make the left wing critical (and unlike a climbing turn it went into the yawed turn rather than away from it). Then again it had an engine on that side presumably developing thrust and providing airflow into the masked-off area. If not, that's even more of a problem.

The speed just needs to die away enough to make even a mild skid fatal, as this "not for the faint of heart" clip from the Philippines shows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqmomTUVsAw

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