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compensateme
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:57 am

SteelChair wrote:
I don't think DTW and MSP were generating revenue premiums 10-15 years ago for NWA and then Delta either. The core question remains, why is Delta now abe to generate that revenue premium?


DTW and MSP both earn a much higher revenue premium today than they did 10-15 years ago. Take some time to educate yourself and research the data.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:09 am

MSPNWA wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Well thats certainly an interesting viewpoint. On the data that Delta submits to the SEC claiming a revenue advantage.....well, they're lying. Because the folks on a.net have better data!


Then we're not talking the same data. I'm talking head-to-head route data where this supposed product-driven revenue advantage never materializes.

You asked about why DL now has an aggregate revenue edge over those two. You've been told why. DL's network faces less competition, and its customers are forced to pay more to fly. Doesn't sound so glamorous now, does it. It isn't a fancy business model, but it makes money.


But is that their fault? DL made the moves to get to this point, and it happens those moves involve becoming entrenched in markets with little competition. In turn, because they reap huge $$, they can invest in their overall product. Good for them!

Serious question (for anyone), since it is clear some posters on this forum think DL has an unfair advantage by robbing ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC to subsidize their network, what should they be forced to do to level the playing field with UA/AA?
 
alasizon
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:18 am

Fargo wrote:
SLC to subsidize their network


I don't believe it would be fair to say SLC generates any sort of revenue premium compared to DEN & PHX.

DL puts out a good product and definitely gets folks to believe in their flavor of Kool-Aid but I'm not sold that they can sustain it. There is limited room in my opinion for them to improve their domestic product while UA & AA have far bigger gaps where improvement can be made. Passengers buy based on where they see the most improvement/upside and as you get closer to the top, the room for improvement shrinks and so does your ability to win new customers.

Whether or not AA/UA are moving in the right direction is a totally different issue.
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Capn
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:42 am

tphuang,
You sound like a very smart person, and I admire your diligence in all the research you do on MARGINS and YIELDS... I think what you miss is the big picture. I think that running a major airline has many other facets to it than just those two areas.
You are now bringing in other reasons why Deltas success is due to unfair advantages over its rivals.
I wonder if there will ever be a time that you will admit that they are really a well run airline. They truly try to do all the things that will make them better, and are not afraid to spend money where it is needed to be better than their competitors.
I mean no disrespect, but you do make me laugh with all your reasons as to why Delta Is " going to get killed " by another competitor if they enter a certain market or try to compete with SO AND SO...
I have never worked for Delta,( I took an early retirement from NWA in 1996 ). I was not a Delta fan throughout my career,( however Delta does administer my pension and benefits, thankyou delta ),I sure am now. I know quite a lot about the industry and can say unequivocally that Delta is running the best airline I have ever seen in all my 73 years ( 50 in aviation.)
So I will sit back and await your next reason why Delta just isn't going to be able to compete with B6, NK, or WN.
Man, If they could just get their yields up...
UH-1 DEHAVILAND HERON MARTIN 404 DC-9 CHALLENGER 601 FALCON 50 & 900EX
 
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BroadwayLimited
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:23 am

compensateme wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I don't think DTW and MSP were generating revenue premiums 10-15 years ago for NWA and then Delta either. The core question remains, why is Delta now abe to generate that revenue premium?

DTW and MSP both earn a much higher revenue premium today than they did 10-15 years ago. Take some time to educate yourself and research the data.

This is what I was talking about earlier. People on this board can be so negative to other posters. Sad.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:11 pm

BroadwayLimited wrote:
compensateme wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I don't think DTW and MSP were generating revenue premiums 10-15 years ago for NWA and then Delta either. The core question remains, why is Delta now abe to generate that revenue premium?

DTW and MSP both earn a much higher revenue premium today than they did 10-15 years ago. Take some time to educate yourself and research the data.

This is what I was talking about earlier. People on this board can be so negative to other posters. Sad.

Its especially sad when they do so while spinning "facts" to fit their narrative.

I had no idea that MSP and DTW had higher margins now than 10-15 years ago. Sarcasm intended. Of course they have higher margins because Delta. That's kinda what we were talking about....Delta's ability to command a premium. I asked why. I seriously doubt its because of MSP and DTW, or even ATL for that matter. Here is my earthshattering conclusion: they command a premium, at just about every one of their hubs, because they deliver a better, more reliable product than UAL or AA.
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:24 pm

SteelChair wrote:
BroadwayLimited wrote:
compensateme wrote:
DTW and MSP both earn a much higher revenue premium today than they did 10-15 years ago. Take some time to educate yourself and research the data.

This is what I was talking about earlier. People on this board can be so negative to other posters. Sad.

Its especially sad when they do so while spinning "facts" to fit their narrative.

I had no idea that MSP and DTW had higher margins now than 10-15 years ago. Sarcasm intended. Of course they have higher margins because Delta. That's kinda what we were talking about....Delta's ability to command a premium. I asked why. I seriously doubt its because of MSP and DTW, or even ATL for that matter. Here is my earthshattering conclusion: they command a premium, at just about every one of their hubs, because they deliver a better, more reliable product than UAL or AA.


I like DL, but can you honestly say they command a premium at their costal hubs (LAX, SEA, JFK, LGA, BOS, etc)? I don't think so.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:22 pm

Fargo wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
BroadwayLimited wrote:
This is what I was talking about earlier. People on this board can be so negative to other posters. Sad.

Its especially sad when they do so while spinning "facts" to fit their narrative.

I had no idea that MSP and DTW had higher margins now than 10-15 years ago. Sarcasm intended. Of course they have higher margins because Delta. That's kinda what we were talking about....Delta's ability to command a premium. I asked why. I seriously doubt its because of MSP and DTW, or even ATL for that matter. Here is my earthshattering conclusion: they command a premium, at just about every one of their hubs, because they deliver a better, more reliable product than UAL or AA.


I like DL, but can you honestly say they command a premium at their costal hubs (LAX, SEA, JFK, LGA, BOS, etc)? I don't think so.


Admittedly, the claim is not broken down by hub. But in their filings they claim an average revenue premium vis a vis their competitors. They're normally hesitant to put it in an investor presentation (SEC oversight) unless they can prove it.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:28 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Fargo wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Its especially sad when they do so while spinning "facts" to fit their narrative.

I had no idea that MSP and DTW had higher margins now than 10-15 years ago. Sarcasm intended. Of course they have higher margins because Delta. That's kinda what we were talking about....Delta's ability to command a premium. I asked why. I seriously doubt its because of MSP and DTW, or even ATL for that matter. Here is my earthshattering conclusion: they command a premium, at just about every one of their hubs, because they deliver a better, more reliable product than UAL or AA.


I like DL, but can you honestly say they command a premium at their costal hubs (LAX, SEA, JFK, LGA, BOS, etc)? I don't think so.


Admittedly, the claim is not broken down by hub. But in their filings they claim an average revenue premium vis a vis their competitors. They're normally hesitant to put it in an investor presentation (SEC oversight) unless they can prove it.

I know with my employer, employees trick the system to fly DL even when they price too high. So I believe DL is receiving a premium at LAX.

Considering how well DL performed, they are managing the network well.

I would speculate the AS loyalty minimizes the SEA premium. But when I visit BOS, all indications they are getting a premium. LGA in boom times, like now, is a premium market in its own right.

Lightsaber
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FlyingElvii
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:27 am

panamair wrote:
And for those who have been criticizing Delta for not cancelling flights but delaying them significantly, one side benefit of that is that it provides extra capacity/option for disrupted passengers especially in these periods of 90+% load factors. When airlines are running such high load factors, a flight cancellation will likely result in the inconvenienced passenger not being able to get on a flight for quite a few days. By still maintaining the original flight albeit 12 or 16 hours later, the passenger will have another option besides trying to standby for overbooked flights.

Overnight delays are usually 10-11 hours, depending on hotel availability, which has been super tight in many markets, due to peak Vacay season.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:52 am

SteelChair wrote:
I had no idea that MSP and DTW had higher margins now than 10-15 years ago. Sarcasm intended. Of course they have higher margins because Delta. That's kinda what we were talking about....Delta's ability to command a premium. I asked why. I seriously doubt its because of MSP and DTW, or even ATL for that matter. Here is my earthshattering conclusion: they command a premium, at just about every one of their hubs, because they deliver a better, more reliable product than UAL or AA.


You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but it takes a serious avoidance of economic principles to claim that it's not overwhelmingly about supply and demand. Picking and choosing when economics apply isn't a sound conclusion, if you ask me.

I think it all also goes back to your premise that MSP and DTW didn't command a premium in years past. The data doesn't support that belief. MSP has historically been one of the highest fare large airports in the country. It was for NW. It still is for DL. DTW was often in the higher end as well in the years before the acquisition. ATL's rise coincides near-perfectly with the timeline of AirTran's demise. It's not a coincidence. And obviously connecting traffic is much more lucrative than before with half the hub-and-spoke airlines gone.

SteelChair wrote:
Admittedly, the claim is not broken down by hub. But in their filings they claim an average revenue premium vis a vis their competitors. They're normally hesitant to put it in an investor presentation (SEC oversight) unless they can prove it.


They've claimed an average premium in those hubs? I don't recall seeing that, although it wouldn't surprise me at LAX.

But let's say they have claimed it, and we assume average yield versus the competition. Now you have a problem with your claim that ATL, DTW, and MSP are about the product. It doesn't make sense that the same product can command a premium in some locations but not others, assuming everything else is equal. The elephant in the room is that it's not equal.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:50 am

ethernal wrote:
91% domestic load factor is - I believe - the highest load factor Delta has ever reported for any month (at least going back to 2016).


For June, Delta's previous record was 89.82% back in 2015. For July, they broke 90% in 2008, 2009, and 2014.

Year Month DOMESTIC (Delta)
2009 7 91.10%
2008 7 90.33%
2014 7 90.11%
2010 7 89.88%
2015 6 89.82%
2015 7 89.61% - for comparison this month was Southwest peak load factor at 87.6%
2007 7 89.61%
2012 7 89.59%
2011 7 89.53%
2009 6 89.46%
2010 6 89.39
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:46 am

compensateme wrote:
beerbus wrote:
2. If all USA network carriers are experiencing the results of a strong economy, and reduced competion- how do you explain DL's consistent approx 25% higher net profit than its peers?

I am not trashing AA or UA, but an acknowledgment of DL's marketing strategy and strong operational metrics should also be considered as part of these results.


DL generates higher margins because it faces little direct competition at DTW, MSP & SLC, and minimal completion at ATL. Do not fool yourself - this is where the profit is generated. It’s why the economics of 100-seat mainline aircraft work for DL and not AA or UA. (Because AA and UA operate in a much more competitive environment, whereas DL limits capacity at its trunk hubs to maximize margins).

Detroit and Minneapolis may not be as sexy as Chicago, but when you control the market — vs. the three way completion at Chicago between UA, AA and WN — and ultimately carry a similar number of local passengers at much high prices....

It’s not rocket science.


Please explain all the RJ's that American and United operate out of O'hare then.
 
airlineguy1234
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:49 am

SteelChair wrote:
tphuang wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
For those poo-pooong these results, "they were expected....," etc.

Was 90.4% expected? 2 points better than last June? The low fuel prices are like adding a supercharger to an already humming engine. They don't cancel flights and they fill up the ones they schedule with higher revenue customers than other airlines. With the oldest fleet among large carriers. The total (operational amd financial) results that Delta is delivering now are perhaps the most impressive in the history of commercial aviation.


We will see when all the Q2 results come out, but DL is typically not in the top 3 domestically when it comes to margins. They do the best amongst legacies, but normally worse than WN. WN will probably do worse this time around due to MAX issues. But calling it most impressive seems to completely overlook the actual margins.


You seem focused on one metric, margins.

I am saying no airline in history has ever produced these kinds of passenger volume, these kinds of load factors, these kinds of completion factors, and these kinds of profits. Ever. And theyre doing it with the oldest fleet among the majors. And they still beat UAL and AA on customer scores and on time numbers.


I would say this likely has to do with their employees. Their employees are great!
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:45 pm

beerbus wrote:
DL today reported their June operating performance.
RPMs:
........................ June '19 .........................June '18 ......................... Increase %
Domestic ............. 14,118,714................ 13,078,646 .................... 8.0
Int'l ................... 9,668,351................. 9,361,074 ............................. 4.4
System L/F ............. 90.9.................. 88.0 ................ ........... 2.9 Points


The data reported by BTS is always lower than on the corporate reports. I assume that the corporate data includes Regional Airlines while the BTS data is just mainline.

BTS data RPMs June 2018 for Delta
11,236,120
8,291,150

BTS data ASMs June 2018 for Delta
12,661,054
9,273,568
 
jfern022
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:52 pm

Some people will believe anything to portray a negative attitude towards Delta.

It’s quite immature and shows people’s biases
 
beerbus
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:55 pm

MSPNWA wrote:

But let's say they have claimed it, and we assume average yield versus the competition. Now you have a problem with your claim that ATL, DTW, and MSP are about the product. It doesn't make sense that the same product can command a premium in some locations but not others, assuming everything else is equal. The elephant in the room is that it's not equal.



1. The hubs you mention do not consist solely on local traffic. As it's been pointed out previously both DTW and MSP have equal, or smaller local traffic bases than hubs that are controlled by AA like CLT, PHL or DFW, or UA's DEN or IAH operations. So if the local traffic bases are similar- and they are all fortress hubs- again why is DL reporting superior returns? All three legacy carriers fight for the coasts, and the competition at ORD doesn't explain a 25% lower operating profit for UA and AA. IMHO the DTW and MSP hubs don't explain the higher profits.

2. My experience in the industry taught me that CONNECTING traffic is key to superior profits. There's only so much local traffic at a hub, and it's usually not enough to guarantee profitability, no matter how strong the local yield is.

Customers who live in the midwest for example have multiple options to travel from SDF, CMH, CLE, MKE, BHM, or LIT. They have to connect to most cities. They have a choice, as no carrier has a hub-like grip over local traffic.

Connecting traffic is a very important component of any airlines revenue generation.

And reputation and service are part of the consumer decision matrix.

Why does a customer in IND for example chose a particular carrier between IND and PDX for example? They have multiple options.

IMHO, DL is winning (for the moment at least) the battle for the connecting traffic from non-hub cities. While you don't seem to agree, I contend that DL's service reputation and reliablity are giving them a revenue advantage. And it is an advantage that they have spent the last 10 years working on- since the DL/NW merger.

It's a very slight advantage- but it adds up when you carry 14 million passengers in a month.

I would respectfully suggest, that DL's overall product delivery is moving market share from non-hub cities they don't control. The HUBS are equal for this discussion. - but service delivery and customer perception are NOT. I realize you don't acknowledge that the DL brand or service can influence traffic.

However- I know brand does make a difference from previous personal experience as an airline sales manager. When I was in the industry, AA had a superior product in every sense- cleaner planes, nicer airports, happier employees- a generally better reputation among high yield business travelers. Even though we all flew 727-200's and DC-10's.

Where I worked- we had to overcome that perception and reality via pricing. The corporate deals I cut had to be more price aggressive to overcome AA and their service advantage. Fang (Mr Crandall) was kicking our butt.

We made money too- but it was by cutting costs; the lower costs, (and lower resulting service level) made up for our lower yields.

The same problem took place from the spoke cities- passengers perceived lower service levels, and needed price stimulation to move purchasing decisions.

Now the tables have turned IMO- AA and to a lesser extent, UA are chasing DL. And my marketing/sales friend at AA and UA admit this privately to me. (they can because I'm now out of the industry)
 
dlflynhayn
Posts: 288
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:36 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Well thats certainly an interesting viewpoint. On the data that Delta submits to the SEC claiming a revenue advantage.....well, they're lying. Because the folks on a.net have better data!


Then we're not talking the same data. I'm talking head-to-head route data where this supposed product-driven revenue advantage never materializes.

You asked about why DL now has an aggregate revenue edge over those two. You've been told why. DL's network faces less competition, and its customers are forced to pay more to fly. Doesn't sound so glamorous now, does it. It isn't a fancy business model, but it makes money.


So its Delta's fault that they have hubs with no competition wow hahahaha.Some people just can't realize that bottom line even if the revenue came from North Korea lol its a profit more than UA,AA,WN or whoever u want besides DL that's it!! Cant wait for Valentines Day :D
 
dlflynhayn
Posts: 288
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:55 pm

Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:46 pm

beerbus wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

But let's say they have claimed it, and we assume average yield versus the competition. Now you have a problem with your claim that ATL, DTW, and MSP are about the product. It doesn't make sense that the same product can command a premium in some locations but not others, assuming everything else is equal. The elephant in the room is that it's not equal.



1. The hubs you mention do not consist solely on local traffic. As it's been pointed out previously both DTW and MSP have equal, or smaller local traffic bases than hubs that are controlled by AA like CLT, PHL or DFW, or UA's DEN or IAH operations. So if the local traffic bases are similar- and they are all fortress hubs- again why is DL reporting superior returns? All three legacy carriers fight for the coasts, and the competition at ORD doesn't explain a 25% lower operating profit for UA and AA. IMHO the DTW and MSP hubs don't explain the higher profits.

2. My experience in the industry taught me that CONNECTING traffic is key to superior profits. There's only so much local traffic at a hub, and it's usually not enough to guarantee profitability, no matter how strong the local yield is.

Customers who live in the midwest for example have multiple options to travel from SDF, CMH, CLE, MKE, BHM, or LIT. They have to connect to most cities. They have a choice, as no carrier has a hub-like grip over local traffic.

Connecting traffic is a very important component of any airlines revenue generation.

And reputation and service are part of the consumer decision matrix.

Why does a customer in IND for example chose a particular carrier between IND and PDX for example? They have multiple options.

IMHO, DL is winning (for the moment at least) the battle for the connecting traffic from non-hub cities. While you don't seem to agree, I contend that DL's service reputation and reliablity are giving them a revenue advantage. And it is an advantage that they have spent the last 10 years working on- since the DL/NW merger.

It's a very slight advantage- but it adds up when you carry 14 million passengers in a month.

I would respectfully suggest, that DL's overall product delivery is moving market share from non-hub cities they don't control. The HUBS are equal for this discussion. - but service delivery and customer perception are NOT. I realize you don't acknowledge that the DL brand or service can influence traffic.

However- I know brand does make a difference from previous personal experience as an airline sales manager. When I was in the industry, AA had a superior product in every sense- cleaner planes, nicer airports, happier employees- a generally better reputation among high yield business travelers. Even though we all flew 727-200's and DC-10's.

Where I worked- we had to overcome that perception and reality via pricing. The corporate deals I cut had to be more price aggressive to overcome AA and their service advantage. Fang (Mr Crandall) was kicking our butt.

We made money too- but it was by cutting costs; the lower costs, (and lower resulting service level) made up for our lower yields.

The same problem took place from the spoke cities- passengers perceived lower service levels, and needed price stimulation to move purchasing decisions.

Now the tables have turned IMO- AA and to a lesser extent, UA are chasing DL. And my marketing/sales friend at AA and UA admit this privately to me. (they can because I'm now out of the industry)


MY mom works for UA and i pray for her everyday lol..so ill ID90 sometimes out of Hawaii if i get stuck on DL,service is actually not bad on UA better than AA IMHO but when you fly all airlines during the year you realize quick the differences between the 3 real fast, its just the little things that DL is doing better than AA,UA me for one is EC if your gonna charge more for that seat maybe you should give a little extra but UA doesn't not sure about AA since i haven't been in EC this year on AA.Oh and PTV's are what people want been on UA numerous times when there use ur own device system lol hardly works and is always refreshing hmmmm not good.Just my 2 cents :D
 
FI767
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:21 pm

As a Delta silver medallion member I agree that they should be able to charge more for better service, in flight entertainment in seat backs on large majority of the mainline equipment etc. Overall I have had good experiencing with Delta until last June 19th flying PDX-MSP-IND. Our aircraft left about an hour late from PDX due to network outage in the Delta computer network which resulted in delayed boarding and receipt of flight plan.
The F/A's visited with all the passengers that had connections at MSP to advise arriving and connecting gates as well as assuring us that every effort would be made to make up some time and that due to the outage connecting flights were departing late. Upon arrival we ran to the connecting gate only to see our aircraft being pushed away from the gate. As this was last flight to IND for the evening we headed to customer service to voice our disappointment and frustrations. The customer service representative was very sympathetic but advised us that they did not agree with the decision to not hold the connecting flights for late arriving passengers. Those decisions were made in Atlanta Things even got worse when we were told that there were no hotel rooms available in Minneapolis that whole week and Delta was unable to provide any accommodations. We were left totally on our own without even our hand luggage which we had checked in at PDX to help speed up boarding. The only thing we were offered was $100 off voucher for a future delta flight. No meal vouchers or anything. After spending 2 hours checking websites and calling hotel we found a hotel 40 minute Uber ride from MSP at 2x the normal rate. It was almost midnight when we arrived at the hotel. After a short stay we took an Uber back to MSP the following morning for an early morning departure. I filled out the complaint form and uploaded our expenses and now nearly 2 weeks later I have not received any response from Delta except for an acknowledgement that the complaint was received.
Delta may outperform their peers on regular basis but my last experience with Delta has definitely soured my impression of how Delta handled a simple minor flight delay and left number of passengers stranded without any accommodations at a major hub.
 
777Mech
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:12 am

FI767 wrote:
As a Delta silver medallion member I agree that they should be able to charge more for better service, in flight entertainment in seat backs on large majority of the mainline equipment etc. Overall I have had good experiencing with Delta until last June 19th flying PDX-MSP-IND. Our aircraft left about an hour late from PDX due to network outage in the Delta computer network which resulted in delayed boarding and receipt of flight plan.
The F/A's visited with all the passengers that had connections at MSP to advise arriving and connecting gates as well as assuring us that every effort would be made to make up some time and that due to the outage connecting flights were departing late. Upon arrival we ran to the connecting gate only to see our aircraft being pushed away from the gate. As this was last flight to IND for the evening we headed to customer service to voice our disappointment and frustrations. The customer service representative was very sympathetic but advised us that they did not agree with the decision to not hold the connecting flights for late arriving passengers. Those decisions were made in Atlanta Things even got worse when we were told that there were no hotel rooms available in Minneapolis that whole week and Delta was unable to provide any accommodations. We were left totally on our own without even our hand luggage which we had checked in at PDX to help speed up boarding. The only thing we were offered was $100 off voucher for a future delta flight. No meal vouchers or anything. After spending 2 hours checking websites and calling hotel we found a hotel 40 minute Uber ride from MSP at 2x the normal rate. It was almost midnight when we arrived at the hotel. After a short stay we took an Uber back to MSP the following morning for an early morning departure. I filled out the complaint form and uploaded our expenses and now nearly 2 weeks later I have not received any response from Delta except for an acknowledgement that the complaint was received.
Delta may outperform their peers on regular basis but my last experience with Delta has definitely soured my impression of how Delta handled a simple minor flight delay and left number of passengers stranded without any accommodations at a major hub.


Cool story, but this has nothing to do with the topic. Go put this in a trip report forum somewhere else.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2143
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:24 am

beerbus wrote:
Now the tables have turned IMO- AA and to a lesser extent, UA are chasing DL. And my marketing/sales friend at AA and UA admit this privately to me. (they can because I'm now out of the industry)


That isn't an industry secret and even UA's management has stated we are chasing DL. I'll take it a step further and say AA and for sure UA can not catch DL's financial performance and the sooner the UA and AA fan clubs on this thread accept it the easier these thread are to read because you take the emotion out of it.
I don't even work for DL and but I can appreciate how well the airline is ran. Looking at UA we face stiff competition at every hub, although UA basically has most of the traffic at both EWR and SFO and we are able to charge a premium in these 2 markets we face stiff competition at ORD, DEN, LAX and now IAH. A lot of UA's problems were not caused by existential circumstances a lot of UA's problem were caused by UA. If we really want the truth the only 2 hubs UA should be facing stiff competition at is ORD and LAX, if UA was a better run airline and if we would have had better leadership or leaders with a vision in years past (before Kirby and Oscar) UA could have locked down both DEN and IAH. Instead we had leaders who publicly stated there was no money to be made in the U.S. domestic market, we had leaders who parked vast numbers of mainline jets in favor or regionals, and we had leaders who were more concerned with satisfying Wall Street than satisfying their customers. The reason UA is facing such stiff competition at DEN and IAH is because UA screwed up, even Kirby has stated in some town halls, when he was at AA he would be scratching his head trying to figure out way UA basically gave up so much domestic market share to our rivals. The largest beneficiaries of UA's decline over all those years was first WN then, AA took over the entire state of Texas when UA under Smisek reduced IAH (if I'm not mistaken after the merger wasn't IAH reduced to like 450-475 daily departures during the summer)? Last but not least DL came along and wipe the slate clean in the Midwest, Northeast, and took advantage of UA's weak position at LAX. All the while UA was stuck in a self made holding pattern that we couldn't figure out how to get out off.

As a UA employee it gives me no joy to say this but the truth is DL is a good 8-10 years ahead of UA and DL is showing no signs of slowing down and its going to take the better part of the next decade for UA to even reach the point where DL is at today. Why because UA does not have the narrowbody mainline aircraft in the fleet, UA does not have available gates at airports like EWR, ORD, SFO, and LAX and at most of these airports new gates won't be available until at least 2025 - 2028.

As an outsider I honestly don't understand why AA lags so far behind DL because AA has 3 fortress hubs at DFW, CLT and the crown jewel every airlines wants a piece of MIA. AA is facing stiff competition at ORD, LAX and to a certain extent PHX and PHL. But with the 3 powerhouse fortress hubs (something UA does not have and to a certain extent neither does DL) I think AA should be further along that they are but again they have poor leadership at the top.

Although leadership is to blame for certain things at UA and AA the rest of the blame has to rest on the shoulders everyday employees. Its no secret when DL and WN employees screw up the public is willing to cut them a break because in the public's mind it isn't the norm. The public has a perception of DL and WN that is mostly positive. However when AA or UA employees make a gaffe it becomes national news and it because it was the public expects because they already have a negative persection of us. What both UA and AA employees need to realize is we all have to go the extra mile, take that extra second, to give the customer exceptional service because the only way we can change people perception of us is one passenger at a time and every time we fail to deliver exceptional service it just reinforces the negative connotations they already have of each individual airline.
Last edited by jayunited on Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5410
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:25 am

beerbus wrote:

1. The hubs you mention do not consist solely on local traffic. As it's been pointed out previously both DTW and MSP have equal, or smaller local traffic bases than hubs that are controlled by AA like CLT, PHL or DFW, or UA's DEN or IAH operations.


While I can't say the DL O&D traffic at DTW/MSP is greater than AA at CLT, both DTW and MSP have quite a bit more O and D traffic than CLT. (Even SLC has more O and D than CLT). MSP is comparable to IAH. DTW is sized like DCA or BWI. Yes, DL ops at ATL, DTW and MSP thrive on connecting traffic.

Lots of ink has been spilled in this thread on some pretty good numbers. In a few weeks we'll see other U.S. network carriers report higher cancellation rates, lower on-time rates, lower load factors, and lower operating profits, and inevitably many posters will hail these as great successes.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:34 am

777Mech wrote:
FI767 wrote:
As a Delta silver medallion member I agree that they should be able to charge more for better service, in flight entertainment in seat backs on large majority of the mainline equipment etc. Overall I have had good experiencing with Delta until last June 19th flying PDX-MSP-IND. Our aircraft left about an hour late from PDX due to network outage in the Delta computer network which resulted in delayed boarding and receipt of flight plan.
The F/A's visited with all the passengers that had connections at MSP to advise arriving and connecting gates as well as assuring us that every effort would be made to make up some time and that due to the outage connecting flights were departing late. Upon arrival we ran to the connecting gate only to see our aircraft being pushed away from the gate. As this was last flight to IND for the evening we headed to customer service to voice our disappointment and frustrations. The customer service representative was very sympathetic but advised us that they did not agree with the decision to not hold the connecting flights for late arriving passengers. Those decisions were made in Atlanta Things even got worse when we were told that there were no hotel rooms available in Minneapolis that whole week and Delta was unable to provide any accommodations. We were left totally on our own without even our hand luggage which we had checked in at PDX to help speed up boarding. The only thing we were offered was $100 off voucher for a future delta flight. No meal vouchers or anything. After spending 2 hours checking websites and calling hotel we found a hotel 40 minute Uber ride from MSP at 2x the normal rate. It was almost midnight when we arrived at the hotel. After a short stay we took an Uber back to MSP the following morning for an early morning departure. I filled out the complaint form and uploaded our expenses and now nearly 2 weeks later I have not received any response from Delta except for an acknowledgement that the complaint was received.
Delta may outperform their peers on regular basis but my last experience with Delta has definitely soured my impression of how Delta handled a simple minor flight delay and left number of passengers stranded without any accommodations at a major hub.


Cool story, but this has nothing to do with the topic. Go put this in a trip report forum somewhere else.


Well since we're dispensing advice, howsabout you let moderators moderate and meanwhile try a simple dose of kindness?
 
Justapax
Posts: 59
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:42 am

jayunited wrote:
beerbus wrote:
Now the tables have turned IMO- AA and to a lesser extent, UA are chasing DL. And my marketing/sales friend at AA and UA admit this privately to me. (they can because I'm now out of the industry)


That isn't an industry secret and even UA's management has stated we are chasing DL. I'll take it a step further and say AA and for sure UA can not catch DL's financial performance and the sooner the UA and AA fan clubs on this thread accept it the easier these thread are to read because you take the emotion out of it.
I don't even work for DL and but I can appreciate how well the airline is ran. Looking at UA we face stiff competition at every hub, although UA basically has most of the traffic at both EWR and SFO and we are able to charge a premium in these 2 markets we face stiff competition at ORD, DEN, LAX and now IAH. A lot of UA's problems were not caused by existential circumstances a lot of UA's problem were caused by UA. If we really want the truth the only 2 hubs UA should be facing stiff competition at is ORD and LAX, if UA was a better run airline and if we would have had better leadership or leaders with a vision in years past (before Kirby and Oscar) UA could have locked down both DEN and IAH. Instead we had leaders who publicly stated there was no money to be made in the U.S. domestic market, we had leaders who parked vast numbers of mainline jets in favor or regionals, and we had leaders who were more concerned with satisfying Wall Street than satisfying their customers. The reason UA is facing such stiff competition at DEN and IAH is because UA screwed up, even Kirby has stated in some town halls, when he was at AA he would be scratching his head trying to figure out way UA basically gave up so much domestic market share to our rivals. The largest beneficiaries of UA's decline over all those years was first WN then, AA took over the entire state of Texas when UA under Smisek reduced IAH (if I'm not mistaken after the merger wasn't IAH reduced to like 450-475 daily departures during the summer)? Last but not least DL came along and wipe the slate clean in the Midwest, Northeast, and took advantage of UA's weak position at LAX. All the while UA was stuck in a self made holding pattern that we couldn't figure out how to get out off.

As a UA employee it gives me no joy to say this but the truth is DL is a good 8-10 years ahead of UA and DL is showing no signs of slowing down and its going to take the better part of the next decade for UA to even reach the point where DL is at today. Why because UA does not have the narrowbody mainline aircraft in the fleet, UA does not have available gates at airports like EWR, ORD, SFO, and LAX and at most of these airports new gates won't be available until at least 2025 - 2028.

As an outsider I honestly don't understand why AA lags so far behind DL because AA has 3 fortress hubs at DFW, CLT and the crown jewel every airlines wants a piece of MIA. AA is facing stiff competition at ORD, LAX and to a certain extent PHX and PHL. But with the 3 powerhouse fortress hubs (something UA does not have and to a certain extent neither does DL) I think AA should be further along that they are but again they have poor leadership at the top.

Although leadership is to blame for certain things at UA and AA the rest of the blame has to rest on the shoulders everyday employees. Its no secret when DL and WN employees screw up the public is willing to cut them a break because in the public's mind it isn't the norm. The public has a perception of DL and WN that is mostly positive. However when AA or UA employees make a gaffe it becomes national news and it because it was the public expects because they already have a negative persection of us. What both UA and AA employees need to realize is we all have to go the extra mile, take that extra second, to give the customer exceptional service because the only way we can change people perception of us is one passenger at a time and every time we fail to deliver exceptional service it just reinforces the negative connotations they already have of each individual airline.


Jayunited: Very well said. Facts and truth. You nailed it.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:25 am

beerbus wrote:
1. The hubs you mention do not consist solely on local traffic. As it's been pointed out previously both DTW and MSP have equal, or smaller local traffic bases than hubs that are controlled by AA like CLT, PHL or DFW, or UA's DEN or IAH operations. So if the local traffic bases are similar- and they are all fortress hubs- again why is DL reporting superior returns? All three legacy carriers fight for the coasts, and the competition at ORD doesn't explain a 25% lower operating profit for UA and AA. IMHO the DTW and MSP hubs don't explain the higher profits.

2. My experience in the industry taught me that CONNECTING traffic is key to superior profits. There's only so much local traffic at a hub, and it's usually not enough to guarantee profitability, no matter how strong the local yield is.

Customers who live in the midwest for example have multiple options to travel from SDF, CMH, CLE, MKE, BHM, or LIT. They have to connect to most cities. They have a choice, as no carrier has a hub-like grip over local traffic.

Connecting traffic is a very important component of any airlines revenue generation.

And reputation and service are part of the consumer decision matrix.

Why does a customer in IND for example chose a particular carrier between IND and PDX for example? They have multiple options.

IMHO, DL is winning (for the moment at least) the battle for the connecting traffic from non-hub cities. While you don't seem to agree, I contend that DL's service reputation and reliablity are giving them a revenue advantage. And it is an advantage that they have spent the last 10 years working on- since the DL/NW merger.

It's a very slight advantage- but it adds up when you carry 14 million passengers in a month.

I would respectfully suggest, that DL's overall product delivery is moving market share from non-hub cities they don't control. The HUBS are equal for this discussion. - but service delivery and customer perception are NOT. I realize you don't acknowledge that the DL brand or service can influence traffic.

However- I know brand does make a difference from previous personal experience as an airline sales manager. When I was in the industry, AA had a superior product in every sense- cleaner planes, nicer airports, happier employees- a generally better reputation among high yield business travelers. Even though we all flew 727-200's and DC-10's.

Where I worked- we had to overcome that perception and reality via pricing. The corporate deals I cut had to be more price aggressive to overcome AA and their service advantage. Fang (Mr Crandall) was kicking our butt.

We made money too- but it was by cutting costs; the lower costs, (and lower resulting service level) made up for our lower yields.

The same problem took place from the spoke cities- passengers perceived lower service levels, and needed price stimulation to move purchasing decisions.

Now the tables have turned IMO- AA and to a lesser extent, UA are chasing DL. And my marketing/sales friend at AA and UA admit this privately to me. (they can because I'm now out of the industry)


1) Clearly they don't, and they also grab a good number of high-yield connecting PAX. Last I saw, MSP and DTW were considerably larger O&D airports than CLT, about the same size as IAH (although HOU adds to the Houston metro), and are close to PHL. Clearly DEN is larger, but it's fractured among multiple carriers in its highly competitive market, limiting yields. MSP and DTW are unique in that they are among the largest local markets without a second airline and/or airport adding considerable competition. It's not rocket science to see how DL (and NW before it) commands high yields there. It's economics. How can you say MSP and DTW don't do their part to explain the high profits when DL itself has said they (and ATL) are the highest margin hubs?

2) I agree that connecting traffic can be very lucrative. The industry consolidation has removed four major hub-and-spoke airlines, and there's few small airports that weren't affected. Just because you have three or four reasonable options doesn't mean the carriers are feeling bad and flooding the connecting demand with capacity. Not at all. They are expensive to fly from for a reason. There may be a "choice", but it isn't cheap. This is probably why ATL now shines more than ever. The entire SE corner of the country is dominated by DL and AA connections. The loss of AirTran removed a lot of connecting capacity in the region.

The bottom line is that no one is saying DL is definitively not commanding a premium (however large or small) because of its product. I don't think that can proven. But the problem is that people claim DL commands a premium (and not just minor), but no one has ever been able to provide data points to back up even a minor premium. Instead the data often shows the opposite. It reminds of something I learned in economics classes. It takes both theory and data in agreement. The claim that DL commands a premium because of its product lacks both. And the reason the data doesn't show is because the underlying theory doesn't agree. Competitive forces (or lack thereof) are the primary reason DL commands a premium today. And the data loudly agrees. Like I've said earlier, you are entitled to your opinion, but I wouldn't base mine on something the available evidence disagrees with.
 
Mboyle1988
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:07 am

Not sure why poster above listed MIA as an AA fortress hub. The only fortress hubs are DFW and CLT. I believe the third most profitable hub is PHL then PHX. MIA is towards the bottom now from what I remember.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:17 am

Mboyle1988 wrote:
Not sure why poster above listed MIA as an AA fortress hub. The only fortress hubs are DFW and CLT. I believe the third most profitable hub is PHL then PHX. MIA is towards the bottom now from what I remember.


It's DFW & CLT, followed by DCA not PHL
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:29 am

Paying more money on airfares just to get the mileage points is a really really bad investment. It’s second maybe to financing a brand new car in terms of bad purchases
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:41 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
beerbus wrote:

1. The hubs you mention do not consist solely on local traffic. As it's been pointed out previously both DTW and MSP have equal, or smaller local traffic bases than hubs that are controlled by AA like CLT, PHL or DFW, or UA's DEN or IAH operations.


While I can't say the DL O&D traffic at DTW/MSP is greater than AA at CLT, both DTW and MSP have quite a bit more O and D traffic than CLT. (Even SLC has more O and D than CLT). MSP is comparable to IAH. DTW is sized like DCA or BWI. Yes, DL ops at ATL, DTW and MSP thrive on connecting traffic.

Lots of ink has been spilled in this thread on some pretty good numbers. In a few weeks we'll see other U.S. network carriers report higher cancellation rates, lower on-time rates, lower load factors, and lower operating profits, and inevitably many posters will hail these as great successes.


Last year, SLC surpassed CLT in local enplanements; CLT now reigns as the hub with the fewest local enplanements. DTW & MSP do indeed have significantly more...

In line with several of the deleted postings, this thread has more truthiness than facts in it...
truthiness - the quality of seeming or being felt to be true, even if not necessarily true.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:44 pm

compensateme wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
beerbus wrote:

1. The hubs you mention do not consist solely on local traffic. As it's been pointed out previously both DTW and MSP have equal, or smaller local traffic bases than hubs that are controlled by AA like CLT, PHL or DFW, or UA's DEN or IAH operations.


While I can't say the DL O&D traffic at DTW/MSP is greater than AA at CLT, both DTW and MSP have quite a bit more O and D traffic than CLT. (Even SLC has more O and D than CLT). MSP is comparable to IAH. DTW is sized like DCA or BWI. Yes, DL ops at ATL, DTW and MSP thrive on connecting traffic.

Lots of ink has been spilled in this thread on some pretty good numbers. In a few weeks we'll see other U.S. network carriers report higher cancellation rates, lower on-time rates, lower load factors, and lower operating profits, and inevitably many posters will hail these as great successes.


Last year, SLC surpassed CLT in local enplanements; CLT now reigns as the hub with the fewest local enplanements. DTW & MSP do indeed have significantly more...

In line with several of the deleted postings, this thread has more truthiness than facts in it...
truthiness - the quality of seeming or being felt to be true, even if not necessarily true.


I've found myself wondering what effect the super efficient and long legged CS300 will have upon SLC? That airplane, combined with the new terminal, mean significant upgrading to the SLC travel experience in the near term.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:47 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I've found myself wondering what effect the super efficient and long legged CS300 will have upon SLC? That airplane, combined with the new terminal, mean significant upgrading to the SLC travel experience in the near term.


If you build it, they will come? How'd the new terminals work out for PIT, CVG, DTW, IND, etc.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:53 pm

compensateme wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I've found myself wondering what effect the super efficient and long legged CS300 will have upon SLC? That airplane, combined with the new terminal, mean significant upgrading to the SLC travel experience in the near term.


If you build it, they will come? How'd the new terminals work out for PIT, CVG, DTW, IND, etc.


Agree generally, air travel has to respond to demand, not create it, but one caveat. The areas you listed are rust belt, largely unionized, business unfriendly states that were/are shrinking economically. Utah is a more business friendly atmosphere.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:54 pm

SteelChair wrote:
compensateme wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I've found myself wondering what effect the super efficient and long legged CS300 will have upon SLC? That airplane, combined with the new terminal, mean significant upgrading to the SLC travel experience in the near term.


If you build it, they will come? How'd the new terminals work out for PIT, CVG, DTW, IND, etc.


Agree generally, air travel has to respond to demand, not create it, but one caveat. The areas you listed are rust belt, largely unionized, business unfriendly states that were/are shrinking economically. Utah is a more business friendly atmosphere.


Additionally, that was during a time when hubs were being created. That doesn't really happen now (maybe some larger focus cities).
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:04 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
compensateme wrote:

If you build it, they will come? How'd the new terminals work out for PIT, CVG, DTW, IND, etc.


Agree generally, air travel has to respond to demand, not create it, but one caveat. The areas you listed are rust belt, largely unionized, business unfriendly states that were/are shrinking economically. Utah is a more business friendly atmosphere.


Additionally, that was during a time when hubs were being created. That doesn't really happen now (maybe some larger focus cities).


Good point and that reminds me also that SLC survived the downturn, whereas PIT and CVG did not.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:13 pm

SteelChair wrote:
compensateme wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I've found myself wondering what effect the super efficient and long legged CS300 will have upon SLC? That airplane, combined with the new terminal, mean significant upgrading to the SLC travel experience in the near term.


If you build it, they will come? How'd the new terminals work out for PIT, CVG, DTW, IND, etc.


Agree generally, air travel has to respond to demand, not create it, but one caveat. The areas you listed are rust belt, largely unionized, business unfriendly states that were/are shrinking economically. Utah is a more business friendly atmosphere.


You can thank the LDS (Utah has the highest birth rate in the nation) and continuing exodus from CA's high cost of living (of the people moving into Utah, more than half come from CA) for the population boom in Utah... but jobs? Utah ranked #9 in 2017 (2018 not available) in young people/college graduates leaving the state -- the highest-ranked Western state. And the large Western population shift that mostly benefited Utah has largely shifted to Idaho in the past coupe years.

So again... if you build it, they will come?
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:46 pm

compensateme wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
compensateme wrote:

If you build it, they will come? How'd the new terminals work out for PIT, CVG, DTW, IND, etc.


Agree generally, air travel has to respond to demand, not create it, but one caveat. The areas you listed are rust belt, largely unionized, business unfriendly states that were/are shrinking economically. Utah is a more business friendly atmosphere.


You can thank the LDS (Utah has the highest birth rate in the nation) and continuing exodus from CA's high cost of living (of the people moving into Utah, more than half come from CA) for the population boom in Utah... but jobs? Utah ranked #9 in 2017 (2018 not available) in young people/college graduates leaving the state -- the highest-ranked Western state. And the large Western population shift that mostly benefited Utah has largely shifted to Idaho in the past coupe years.

So again... if you build it, they will come?


Good point. The Mountain West is the fastest growing region of the USA. DL's SLC hub isn't built just for Utah, but also fast growing neighboring states. Especially states like Idaho without a hub airport. Las Vegas, Denver and Phoenix are the comparable peer airports. For those who built, they indeed came.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:23 pm

SteelChair wrote:
LAXLHR wrote:
DL runs a tight ship (I still see them for what they are) but they do a great job as a business. There is no doubt that MAX planes being grounded has helped push people to them. That is a lot of daily availability gone!..and those who say it has no bearing, well its a.net.


Please let the forum know "what they are."


Still waiting
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:24 pm

compensateme wrote:
beerbus wrote:
2. If all USA network carriers are experiencing the results of a strong economy, and reduced competion- how do you explain DL's consistent approx 25% higher net profit than its peers?

I am not trashing AA or UA, but an acknowledgment of DL's marketing strategy and strong operational metrics should also be considered as part of these results.


DL generates higher margins because it faces little direct competition at DTW, MSP & SLC, and minimal completion at ATL. Do not fool yourself - this is where the profit is generated. It’s why the economics of 100-seat mainline aircraft work for DL and not AA or UA. (Because AA and UA operate in a much more competitive environment, whereas DL limits capacity at its trunk hubs to maximize margins).

Detroit and Minneapolis may not be as sexy as Chicago, but when you control the market — vs. the three way completion at Chicago between UA, AA and WN — and ultimately carry a similar number of local passengers at much high prices....

It’s not rocket science.


That is Delta's recipe for success. They are also alot more stable running fortress hubs. Delta has its strategy down and i don't see them changing unless market conditions do. The new SLC will be capable of transferring more passengers too when the terminals are up and running. Transfer people thru lower cost ATL, SLC, DTW, MSP when possible avoid NYC, ORD, SEA, SFO, LAX, BOS, DC, MIA those places are mostly for O&D for delta too expensive to connect masses thru. Delta has things figured out.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:15 pm

Special thanks to NolaMD88fan for compiling the research:
https://cats.airports.faa.gov/Reports/r ... _ufZoc4eas

LOWEST cost airports (FAA Large and Medium hub classifications):
BUR = $2.09
ATL = $2.61
CLT = $3.58
SLC = $4.17
MSY = $4.31
PBI = $4.70
CVG = $4.71
TPA = $4.89
PHX = $6.26
MKE = $6.42


HIGHEST:
EWR = $26.17
JFK = $25.41
SFO = $20.63
LGA = $19.33
MIA = $19.20
ORD = $17.87
LAX = $16.75
IAD = $16.53
PHL = $16.04
SJU = $14.99
 
User avatar
compensateme
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:20 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
compensateme wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

Agree generally, air travel has to respond to demand, not create it, but one caveat. The areas you listed are rust belt, largely unionized, business unfriendly states that were/are shrinking economically. Utah is a more business friendly atmosphere.


You can thank the LDS (Utah has the highest birth rate in the nation) and continuing exodus from CA's high cost of living (of the people moving into Utah, more than half come from CA) for the population boom in Utah... but jobs? Utah ranked #9 in 2017 (2018 not available) in young people/college graduates leaving the state -- the highest-ranked Western state. And the large Western population shift that mostly benefited Utah has largely shifted to Idaho in the past coupe years.

So again... if you build it, they will come?


Good point. The Mountain West is the fastest growing region of the USA. DL's SLC hub isn't built just for Utah, but also fast growing neighboring states. Especially states like Idaho without a hub airport. Las Vegas, Denver and Phoenix are the comparable peer airports. For those who built, they indeed came.


Except that, of course, SLC already serves that purpose, and is significantly smaller market than LAS, SEA, DEN & PHX.

SLC made the decision to rebuild the airport because the incumbent facilities (a) had reached the end of their useful life (and required hundreds of millions in capital improvement projects); (b) offered a mediocre/inadequate passenger experience and (c) did not easily accommodate growth. They did the right thing, and planned for the new facilities (include financially) for over a decade.

That said, I'm stumped as to why so many a.net users believe that once the new airport is complete, SLC will rival that of DEN. As it stands, DL carries a larger percentage of connecting traffic at SLC than it does at MSP & DTW; DL's worked hard over the past decade to limit capacity at SLC/DTW/MSP/etc. to achieve premiums and I doubt they'll pee it away. Not to mention, DL isn't likely to add capacity beyond the GDP growth rate, and markets like SEA/BOS/RDU/etc. are taking large chucks of expansion.
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compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:25 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Special thanks to NolaMD88fan for compiling the research:
https://cats.airports.faa.gov/Reports/r ... _ufZoc4eas

LOWEST cost airports (FAA Large and Medium hub classifications):
BUR = $2.09
ATL = $2.61
CLT = $3.58
SLC = $4.17
MSY = $4.31
PBI = $4.70
CVG = $4.71
TPA = $4.89
PHX = $6.26
MKE = $6.42


HIGHEST:
EWR = $26.17
JFK = $25.41
SFO = $20.63
LGA = $19.33
MIA = $19.20
ORD = $17.87
LAX = $16.75
IAD = $16.53
PHL = $16.04
SJU = $14.99


As I pointed out in the other thread, those numbers need to be taken into context. CPE is NOT a check airlines cut per passenger, but rather a simple calculation of (costs paid by airlines / enplanements). Most airlines' costs are fixed, not variable. Keep that equation in mind -- ATL has a CPE because its costs are largely fixed and it's brining mass amounts of enplanements.

Also, SLC has borrowed over $3.5B to finance the new terminal, but won't begin serving the debt for several years. When it does, it'll pass those costs along and its CPE will balloon, just as DTW's and MSP's ballooned when their new/expanded facilities opened in the early 2000s. SLC's CPE will balloon well past DTW & MSP, which have half the debt.
Last edited by compensateme on Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SteelChair
Posts: 1067
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Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:26 pm

compensateme wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
compensateme wrote:

You can thank the LDS (Utah has the highest birth rate in the nation) and continuing exodus from CA's high cost of living (of the people moving into Utah, more than half come from CA) for the population boom in Utah... but jobs? Utah ranked #9 in 2017 (2018 not available) in young people/college graduates leaving the state -- the highest-ranked Western state. And the large Western population shift that mostly benefited Utah has largely shifted to Idaho in the past coupe years.

So again... if you build it, they will come?


Good point. The Mountain West is the fastest growing region of the USA. DL's SLC hub isn't built just for Utah, but also fast growing neighboring states. Especially states like Idaho without a hub airport. Las Vegas, Denver and Phoenix are the comparable peer airports. For those who built, they indeed came.


Except that, of course, SLC already serves that purpose, and is significantly smaller market than LAS, SEA, DEN & PHX.

SLC made the decision to rebuild the airport because the incumbent facilities (a) had reached the end of their useful life (and required hundreds of millions in capital improvement projects); (b) offered a mediocre/inadequate passenger experience and (c) did not easily accommodate growth. They did the right thing, and planned for the new facilities (include financially) for over a decade.

That said, I'm stumped as to why so many a.net users believe that once the new airport is complete, SLC will rival that of DEN. As it stands, DL carries a larger percentage of connecting traffic at SLC than it does at MSP & DTW; DL's worked hard over the past decade to limit capacity at SLC/DTW/MSP/etc. to achieve premiums and I doubt they'll pee it away. Not to mention, DL isn't likely to add capacity beyond the GDP growth rate, and markets like SEA/BOS/RDU/etc. are taking large chucks of expansion.


I don't see SLC ever rivaling DEN. And I agree that the primary reason for rebuilding the airport is that it needed to be done because the old one was old and outdated (like IND previously mentioned).
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:48 pm

compensateme wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
compensateme wrote:

You can thank the LDS (Utah has the highest birth rate in the nation) and continuing exodus from CA's high cost of living (of the people moving into Utah, more than half come from CA) for the population boom in Utah... but jobs? Utah ranked #9 in 2017 (2018 not available) in young people/college graduates leaving the state -- the highest-ranked Western state. And the large Western population shift that mostly benefited Utah has largely shifted to Idaho in the past coupe years.

So again... if you build it, they will come?


Good point. The Mountain West is the fastest growing region of the USA. DL's SLC hub isn't built just for Utah, but also fast growing neighboring states. Especially states like Idaho without a hub airport. Las Vegas, Denver and Phoenix are the comparable peer airports. For those who built, they indeed came.


Except that, of course, SLC already serves that purpose, and is significantly smaller market than LAS, SEA, DEN & PHX.

SLC made the decision to rebuild the airport because the incumbent facilities (a) had reached the end of their useful life (and required hundreds of millions in capital improvement projects); (b) offered a mediocre/inadequate passenger experience and (c) did not easily accommodate growth. They did the right thing, and planned for the new facilities (include financially) for over a decade.

That said, I'm stumped as to why so many a.net users believe that once the new airport is complete, SLC will rival that of DEN. As it stands, DL carries a larger percentage of connecting traffic at SLC than it does at MSP & DTW; DL's worked hard over the past decade to limit capacity at SLC/DTW/MSP/etc. to achieve premiums and I doubt they'll pee it away. Not to mention, DL isn't likely to add capacity beyond the GDP growth rate, and markets like SEA/BOS/RDU/etc. are taking large chucks of expansion.


You are correct in that the new airport only adds about 4 or 5 gates, though it's not exactly 1-1 comparison when you factor in the E-gates. But DL has definitely been upgauging SLC as of late, growing capacity at a higher rate than GDP.

And do you know what portion of that 3.6bil was paid in cash and through cash? Here's a link: https://slcairport.com/thenewslc/rebuild-highlights/
Last edited by Cactusjuba on Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
whpbur
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:14 am

Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:52 pm

2 X 737 BUR-ATL started today. Heard the first flight was full. I think this route should do well!
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Delta Air Lines June 2019 Operating Performance.

Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:27 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
And do you know what portion of that 3.6bil was paid in cash and through cash? Here's a link: https://slcairport.com/thenewslc/rebuild-highlights/


Not much. Per the link, two-thirds of the cost will be paid for through debt... and that chart was created when the project was expected to cost $3B (and based on projections when it was sub-$2B). It'll likely end up being 80%, or $3B+.

Let's not fool ourselves -- once SLC begins servicing the debt, the CPE will double, and DL/SLC already realizes it.
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