"The Federal Aviation Administration announced Tuesday that operations at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport would be suspended between 6:15 p.m. and 7:45 p.m. ET Thursday to allow a ceremonial flyover of military aircraft during President Donald Trump's Independence Day event."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/02/politics ... index.html

Gonna try to not make this political, which is going to be hard, but shutting down a major airport for 1 ½ hours for a non-essential reason is absolutely moronic

I saw this too and was going to post, but then decided not to for fear of political flame war. But I think we can all agree that many people flying in or out during that time period will not be happy.

I did the math and according to the schedules this will impact 63 arrivals and 37 departures, a nontrivial figure.

airlinereporter wrote:

I did the math and according to the schedules this will impact 63 arrivals and 37 departures, a nontrivial figure.

Is that on a normal day or is that the actual volume expected on the holiday?

Aviation wise, I see just under 50 flights scheduled to arrive tonight during that time. There may not be as many on Thursday perhaps, but how many flights might be affected? Will there be any ripple effect at other airports? Will there be any cancellations or just delays?

Seems like horribly short notice?

Beyond obnoxious and highly moronic.

n92r03 wrote:

Also, are there not restrictions for DCA for the annual fireworks show that begins at appx 21:00?

9:00PM - 9:45PM there are DCA restrictions as well for the fireworks

This has been done before for a special flyover in 2015(Obama Pres). However, I don't really understand why DCA needs to close for a few flyovers. Wouldn't runway and approach holds be good enough?

Parades and flypasts are always made to impress somebody.

I just ask... whom, exactly.

Wasting taxpayers dollars to inconvenience taxpayers - registered independent

I realize that this topic has political undertones, but please keep blatant political commentary out of this discussion. Political commentary is restricted to the non aviation forum. Thank you.

Nice decision mod. This isn’t political at all.

DCa will sometimes too have diversions/temp restrictions when AF1 or other vip aircraft land at Edwards. I know someone who landed at Dulles because her dca bound CRJ couldn’t hold any longer. Most pax disembarked at IAD but those who didn’t had a short flight to get to DCA.

There is going to be a thunderstorm....

Just pretend you're flying into EWR and everything is just delayed as usual.

I wonder how high Air Force One will be for the fly over? (Yes, I know it isn't Air Force One when the President is not on it)

How much time did the airport and airlines have to plan for this?

NYPECO wrote:

How much time did the airport and airlines have to plan for this?

The got two days notice. Not announced until today.

It's only 90 mins on a non-busy travel evening. Minimal impact. Eyeroll

Makes me sick. But then a lot of things do these days. There. No mention of politics.

At delta we run 12 flights a day between atlanta and dca. On july 4th we have 7 and only 1 in that window. It probably inconveniences very few, their flight will be delayed like an irop. Theyll be okay.

Your political persuasion will determine how you handle it and I'm pretty sure you'll believe yours right and anyone on the other side is wrong.

But imho let america celebrate July 4th. Go big. Screw dca.

I fly to dca, i know it like the back of my hand and it's a frustrating place to operate in and out. Having it shut down is fine by me. Too bad congress is already out of town.

LovePrunesAnet wrote:

It's only 90 mins on a non-busy travel evening. Minimal impact. Eyeroll

A 90 minute closure backs up a lot of air traffic. I once had a 90 minute weather delay into DCA that caused me to be stuck in CMH that then led to crew timeout that led to me having to stay the night in Columbus with the closest hotel 45 mins away to then get on a flight at 6 am and head to Baltimore and take a $118 taxi ride due to immense traffic. There is no eyeroll when someone expects to get to a destination and they do not make it because other are being irresponsible. I can separate politics and say let politicians do what they need to do to make themselves feel special as all of them do. However, not notifying airlines so schedules can be adjusted weeks or months before is something we call foolish. With proper notice airlines can do their job and make changes to the flight schedule. Now, well, Twitter and message boards will be full of people not making it home in time to watch fireworks with their kids or people being stuck overnight in DC or some other airport due to crew timeouts and missed connections.... all while avoidable with a little planning.

ncflyer wrote:

Nice decision mod. This isn’t political at all.

DCa will sometimes too have diversions/temp restrictions when AF1 or other vip aircraft land at Edwards. I know someone who landed at Dulles because her dca bound CRJ couldn’t hold any longer. Most pax disembarked at IAD but those who didn’t had a short flight to get to DCA.

...and they are 2,000+ miles apart. Odd that an AFB in Cal would affect DCA so much.....lol..

skyharborshome wrote:

LovePrunesAnet wrote:

It's only 90 mins on a non-busy travel evening. Minimal impact. Eyeroll

A 90 minute closure backs up a lot of air traffic. I once had a 90 minute weather delay into DCA that caused me to be stuck in CMH that then led to crew timeout that led to me having to stay the night in Columbus with the closest hotel 45 mins away to then get on a flight at 6 am and head to Baltimore and take a $118 taxi ride due to immense traffic. There is no eyeroll when someone expects to get to a destination and they do not make it because other are being irresponsible. I can separate politics and say let politicians do what they need to do to make themselves feel special as all of them do. However, not notifying airlines so schedules can be adjusted weeks or months before is something we call foolish. With proper notice airlines can do their job and make changes to the flight schedule. Now, well, Twitter and message boards will be full of people not making it home in time to watch fireworks with their kids or people being stuck overnight in DC or some other airport due to crew timeouts and missed connections.... all while avoidable with a little planning.

Was that on July 4th when most airlines cut back flights?

Just looking at the DL schedule as an example, they only have 1 departure that I see that is going to be impacted, the 1905 to ATL. The last bank to most other places on the 5th leaves around 1700. The 1905 is still showing on time. My guess is they're going to board it up, push back, and wait just to get a good spot in line.

In other news, Trump says that they will include cutting edge U.S. military technology, including "brand new Sherman tanks" and "brand new Abrams tanks" in the parade that will close the airport.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/01/us/p ... y-4th.html


Perhaps DL can activate a "brand new DC-3" or "brand new 767-200" from the museum down at ATL to operate that 1705 departure.

casinterest wrote:

This has been done before for a special flyover in 2015(Obama Pres). However, I don't really understand why DCA needs to close for a few flyovers. Wouldn't runway and approach holds be good enough?

The 2015 flyover you're referring to had nothing to do with Obama. It was a WWII flyover as part of the 70th anniversary of VE Day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7GeCM9d6g8
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl ... ccca95de89
It was pretty cool. I was out on the river for this event. It was also good the airport was closed. One of the WWII fighters had an engine problem and made an emergency landing at DCA.

Gotta love how everyone is saying we won’t make his political, yet in their replies, they literally make it political by their choice of words... But anyways, the flyovers/speech/fireworks have been announced for a while now. I’m sure the airlines/airports/atc knew before now. It is just hitting the public arena now. The airlines that fly in at that time of night will just delay their flights and business will go on as always. It’s not like DCA is a big connecting airport. Most business are closed that day anyways. And people flying out at that time of night have already missed the intl. banks at other Eastern airports. So this won’t affect anyone that badly. This isn’t the first time DCA has been delayed due to Independence Day celebrations and it won’t be the last. Life will go on. No need for people to be physically “sick”... Get over it and enjoy the holiday (and the awesome air show too)!! I know I will be!

johnyv wrote:

I wonder how high Air Force One will be for the fly over? (Yes, I know it isn't Air Force One when the President is not on it)

Then, use SAM 28000 or SAM 29000 for the two VC-25s

Oops. Edwards. Andrews. Generic two syllable male names. Close enough.

sprxUSA wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

Nice decision mod. This isn’t political at all.

DCa will sometimes too have diversions/temp restrictions when AF1 or other vip aircraft land at Edwards. I know someone who landed at Dulles because her dca bound CRJ couldn’t hold any longer. Most pax disembarked at IAD but those who didn’t had a short flight to get to DCA.

...and they are 2,000+ miles apart. Odd that an AFB in Cal would affect DCA so much.....lol..

LovePrunesAnet wrote:

It's only 90 mins on a non-busy travel evening. Minimal impact. Eyeroll

I can assure you that Thursday and Sunday nights are the busiest evenings of the week on the east coast. When it comes to DCA, nothing is "minimal impact". Granted it's not as sensitive as LGA, but it's close.

Just a reminder to users — keep politics out of this thread. Users posting political comments may be warned or banned. Keep the discussion on topic.

✈️ atcsundevil

Is it really so bad to make airlines shift a handful of flights by an hour? To all of you saying this is short notice- Do we even know when this was internally announced? This could have been weeks ago, especially considering the flyovers and fireworks have been scheduled for quite a while now. Plus, July 4th is hardly a busy travel day. This will not affect as many people as on a normal day.

This was a necessary side effect of an indisputably positive celebration. Millions of people will benefit from and enjoy whatever is planned in Washington and a few thousand will have to slightly alter their travel plans.

atcsundevil wrote:

LovePrunesAnet wrote:

It's only 90 mins on a non-busy travel evening. Minimal impact. Eyeroll

I can assure you that Thursday and Sunday nights are the busiest evenings of the week on the east coast. When it comes to DCA, nothing is "minimal impact". Granted it's not as sensitive as LGA, but it's close.

True, but July 4th is not a normal Thursday evening.

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

Seems like horribly short notice?

LOL that was my thought. Couldn't they have announced this sooner?

It’s not that big of a deal. It’s the 4th of July, a holiday

dmstorm22 wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

LovePrunesAnet wrote:

It's only 90 mins on a non-busy travel evening. Minimal impact. Eyeroll

I can assure you that Thursday and Sunday nights are the busiest evenings of the week on the east coast. When it comes to DCA, nothing is "minimal impact". Granted it's not as sensitive as LGA, but it's close.

True, but July 4th is not a normal Thursday evening.

Right, I didn't mean to imply that it would be a normal Thursday, but there will most certainly be an impact on airlines, passengers, and controllers. Considering we still haven't been formally notified of any plans or impacts, I don't believe things will ultimately be as smooth as they might have been had there been more prior planning.

ual763 wrote:

Gotta love how everyone is saying we won’t make his political, yet in their replies, they literally make it political by their choice of words... But anyways, the flyovers/speech/fireworks have been announced for a while now. I’m sure the airlines/airports/atc knew before now. It is just hitting the public arena now. The airlines that fly in at that time of night will just delay their flights and business will go on as always. It’s not like DCA is a big connecting airport. Most business are closed that day anyways. And people flying out at that time of night have already missed the intl. banks at other Eastern airports. So this won’t affect anyone that badly. This isn’t the first time DCA has been delayed due to Independence Day celebrations and it won’t be the last. Life will go on. No need for people to be physically “sick”... Get over it and enjoy the holiday (and the awesome air show too)!! I know I will be!

This is not entirely accurate. The fireworks don’t normally close DCA. Because of the special events on the National Mall the fireworks display has moved. This is what is causing that closure. The flyover is causing the other closing. As someone who lives in the DC area and works with DoD and NPS clients daily, this has been in flux and no one has known exactly what was happening until very recently. Local officials are still scrambling and there is very little firm in terms of normal Fourth of July.

atcsundevil wrote:

dmstorm22 wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

I can assure you that Thursday and Sunday nights are the busiest evenings of the week on the east coast. When it comes to DCA, nothing is "minimal impact". Granted it's not as sensitive as LGA, but it's close.

True, but July 4th is not a normal Thursday evening.

Right, I didn't mean to imply that it would be a normal Thursday, but there will most certainly be an impact on airlines, passengers, and controllers. Considering we still haven't been formally notified of any plans or impacts, I don't believe things will ultimately be as smooth as they might have been had there been more prior planning.

100% agree.

I'm speculating the secret service decided to have the long closure for the speech/flyover. Probably security concerns since the president will be standing basically right in the flightpath. If it was just for the flyover, it could probably be a 10 minute closure.

atcsundevil wrote:

dmstorm22 wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

I can assure you that Thursday and Sunday nights are the busiest evenings of the week on the east coast. When it comes to DCA, nothing is "minimal impact". Granted it's not as sensitive as LGA, but it's close.

True, but July 4th is not a normal Thursday evening.

Right, I didn't mean to imply that it would be a normal Thursday, but there will most certainly be an impact on airlines, passengers, and controllers. Considering we still haven't been formally notified of any plans or impacts, I don't believe things will ultimately be as smooth as they might have been had there been more prior planning.

Unfortunately (and totally separate from its policy choices), this administration doesn’t excel in planning or technical competence; look at things like the travel ban or the census citizenship question, both of which likely could have been accomplished more quickly and constitutionally by more competent technicians. The fact that this is a complex multi-agency affair regardless of the programming choices only exacerbates the problem.

Anyone have factual info on what aircraft will be in the flyover? Keyword is factual.

DLASFlyer wrote:

"The Federal Aviation Administration announced Tuesday that operations at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport would be suspended between 6:15 p.m. and 7:45 p.m. ET Thursday to allow a ceremonial flyover of military aircraft during President Donald Trump's Independence Day event."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/02/politics ... index.html

Two points.
1) When did it become "Donald Trump's" Independence Day?

2) There is a fairly regular flypast at Buckingham Palace (i.e. annually, usually for the Queen's birthday) which could easily conflict with traffic inbound to Heathrow, but I don't recall ever hearing of any major interruptions to their operations. I guess the flypast traffic is always kept at lower altitudes, and changes heading long before it gets anywhere near LHR traffic. Presumably that is not an easy option at DCA?

The 100th Anniversary of the RAF in 2018 was the largest of the more recent events at Buck House, and at least one group of aircraft (the Red Arrows) continued on from central London to overfly LHR 27R. I'm guessing in that specific case they paused all movements (on that runway) for a couple of minutes at least....



AFAIK here on a.net there was very little discussion of this event and it's effect on LHR at the time. Maybe there was minimal impact to LHR, and ATC simply interrupted normal departure traffic for a very brief period? It probably would have been completely different if the other 90 a/c involved (some of them slow moving helicopters or WWII fighters) also overflew LHR.

n92r03 wrote:

Anyone have factual info on what aircraft will be in the flyover? Keyword is factual.

AF1 and the Blue Angels. That’s what’s being reported here in DC.

Hoping for rain.

NYPECO wrote:

How much time did the airport and airlines have to plan for this?

We already had a reduced sched for 4 July, but it will affect a few flights. Conference call in the morning.

Babyshark wrote:

At delta we run 12 flights a day between atlanta and dca. On july 4th we have 7 and only 1 in that window. It probably inconveniences very few, their flight will be delayed like an irop. Theyll be okay.

Your political persuasion will determine how you handle it and I'm pretty sure you'll believe yours right and anyone on the other side is wrong.

But imho let america celebrate July 4th. Go big. Screw dca.

I fly to dca, i know it like the back of my hand and it's a frustrating place to operate in and out. Having it shut down is fine by me. Too bad congress is already out of town.

Send'em to IAD...

KFTG wrote:

Hoping for rain.

That'll get operations back on track.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

DLASFlyer wrote:

"The Federal Aviation Administration announced Tuesday that operations at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport would be suspended between 6:15 p.m. and 7:45 p.m. ET Thursday to allow a ceremonial flyover of military aircraft during President Donald Trump's Independence Day event."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/02/politics ... index.html

Two points.
1) When did it become "Donald Trump's" Independence Day?

2) There is a fairly regular flypast at Buckingham Palace (i.e. annually, usually for the Queen's birthday) which could easily conflict with traffic inbound to Heathrow, but I don't recall ever hearing of any major interruptions to their operations. I guess the flypast traffic is always kept at lower altitudes, and changes heading long before it gets anywhere near LHR traffic. Presumably that is not an easy option at DCA?

The 100th Anniversary of the RAF in 2018 was the largest of the more recent events at Buck House, and at least one group of aircraft (the Red Arrows) continued on from central London to overfly LHR 27R. I'm guessing in that specific case they paused all movements (on that runway) for a couple of minutes at least....



AFAIK here on a.net there was very little discussion of this event and it's effect on LHR at the time. Maybe there was minimal impact to LHR, and ATC simply interrupted normal departure traffic for a very brief period? It probably would have been completely different if the other 90 a/c involved (some of them slow moving helicopters or WWII fighters) also overflew LHR.

The problem is, the location of the flyover (probably near the Lincoln Memorial) is less than two miles basically straight off the north end of runway 1-19. They are always either landing or departing over the river there, so there is no way to avoid that critical piece of airspace (and aircraft already are limited where they can go due to permanent airspace restrictions on both sides of the river there.

dcaproducer wrote:

n92r03 wrote:

Anyone have factual info on what aircraft will be in the flyover? Keyword is factual.

AF1 and the Blue Angels. That’s what’s being reported here in DC.

And an F35 demonstration