D L X
Posts: 12465
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:07 pm

Blerg wrote:
I am sure they worked on this for months now and that airlines were informed in advance. I am sure many of them have removed flights from the booking systems or have simply re-scheduled them.

I don't think it's safe to assume this was planned months in advance. For one, Trump can't keep a secret. Second, the airlines are still selling tickets for flights leaving in that window. (Maybe they're hoping the weather prevents the flyovers?)
 
ual763
Posts: 910
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:47 pm

D L X wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I am sure they worked on this for months now and that airlines were informed in advance. I am sure many of them have removed flights from the booking systems or have simply re-scheduled them.

I don't think it's safe to assume this was planned months in advance. For one, Trump can't keep a secret. Second, the airlines are still selling tickets for flights leaving in that window. (Maybe they're hoping the weather prevents the flyovers?)


You’ve just confirmed our points here. 1.) Trump can’t keep a secret... Exactly, it was known well in advance his plans for both moved fireworks (back in May) and also the flyovers (over a week ago). Airlines/Airport knew about it. 2.) The airlines still aren’t canceling/delaying flights in advance. This would lead one to believe that they don’t really deem it necessary to do so and/or it won’t disrupt operations. Essentially, everyone is making a big deal over nothing.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
alasizon
Posts: 1810
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:50 pm

Babyshark wrote:
The coolness of AF1, Blue Angeles and an F35 fly over will outweigh a few delays on probably empty flights excluding the nonrevs.


Flights aren't going to be empty, you can expect probably a 50-70% LF averaged overall.

dtw9 wrote:
How many of you making comments on this will be personally impacted. Answer. None.

I can guarantee you, there will be several hundred (maybe a thousand) airline employees affected by this between those working at DCA, those working at the outstations/hubs, those working in the reservations departments, those dealing with re-routed passengers that were making connections in DCA etc. Couple that with the impact to ATC, passengers and the family/friends picking up said passengers and there is quite an impact.

jayunited wrote:
I'm totally disagreeing with you but the industry is seeing a lot of changes in the publics travel patterns on holidays.
Holidays like Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving and Christmas, airports across this country use to be dead not a whole lot of traffic. However, that has changed and so have the airlines schedules. Traveling on a holiday can be 5%or more cheaper than traveling in the days before or immediately after the holiday. Sometimes people will celebrate the holiday a day early so family and friends can take advantage of the savings if they book a ticket on the holiday. So while airlines are not running their full schedule it isn't the skeleton schedule it use to be years ago when very few people traveled on the actual holiday. Take Thanksgiving for instance airlines are running a full schedule the morning of Thanksgiving, it starts to taper down around 1pm eastern time through 12pm eastern Black Friday after 12pm eastern Black friday its full steam ahead for at least 20 hours. Christmas, airports are empty Christmas morning things start to pick up (the schedule picks up tremendously) around 2-3pm eastern and airlines are like UA are scheduling a full banks of flights out of places like ORD at 11pm, 12am and 1am on Christmas day. Just 5-6 years ago it was unheard of but the travel patterns behaviors have changed and so to have airlines schedules.

This is definitely more and more the trend, particularly in airports like PHX & DEN where the flows are predominately East & West as people move across the country. Last year on Christmas we had a near 90% LF which would have been unheard of a few years ago.

Blerg wrote:
I am sure they worked on this for months now and that airlines were informed in advance. I am sure many of them have removed flights from the booking systems or have simply re-scheduled them.

They haven't. The airlines were officially notified yesterday and everything as of right now is still loaded and planned. Airline schedules are finalized anywhere between 90 and 120 days upstream.

Ziyulu wrote:
The question is if airlines anticipated this event well advance before planning their schedules.

Given full schedules are loaded, clearly not.

izbtmnhd wrote:
This is thread has mostly overhyped nonsense from an operational standpoint.

There’s going to be an average of 100 people per flt on July 4th evening? C’mon.


Lets assume the average gauge is a 125 seat aircraft which is a likely decently close when you consider most flights are either 738/321/757s and then 76 seat RJs. A 70% load factor would put it around 87 people per flight, not counting those that are already in DCA awaiting their connections. Inbound loads are definitely going to be higher than the outbound loads so its not unreasonable to think that with some delayed inbounds; you could get close to that average.

izbtmnhd wrote:
We’re talking about one airport on a holiday evening.

Can we go back to having to pay to join the forum?

We have single airport centered topics all the time, usually they don't revolve around an airport being shut down for two hours with short notice. Everyone is entitled to have their opinions, regardless of whether they had previously paid to join the forums or not.

Passengers don't handle disruption to their holiday travel plans very well and in fact you will see more complaints from holiday travelers than most other groups simply because its "their" holiday to take off and now they have been inconvenienced.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
twinotter
Posts: 222
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:53 pm

Blerg wrote:
I am sure they worked on this for months now and that airlines were informed in advance. I am sure many of them have removed flights from the booking systems or have simply re-scheduled them.


Airlines were not informed in advance. My company's plan is to run a full schedule and delay based on ATC constraints.

BTW, there is nothing "simple" about rescheduling flights.
 
D L X
Posts: 12465
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:02 pm

ual763 wrote:
You’ve just confirmed our points here. 1.) Trump can’t keep a secret... Exactly, it was known well in advance his plans for both moved fireworks (back in May) and also the flyovers (over a week ago). Airlines/Airport knew about it.

Was July 2 suddenly last week? Because that's when the closure was announced. People on this board who work for the airlines and several news outlets have reported this. And even if they knew or predicted a closure for the fireworks, you are wrong about the flyover closure. Feel free to point us to a source reporting a closure at 6:15 to 7:45.

ual763 wrote:
2.) The airlines still aren’t canceling/delaying flights in advance. This would lead one to believe that they don’t really deem it necessary to do so and/or it won’t disrupt operations. Essentially, everyone is making a big deal over nothing.

OR, it's a bigger deal to cancel flights. That plane, in addition to its passengers, need to be somewhere else.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 8872
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:07 pm

So what happens if the afternoon storms leave a cloud deck too low for an air show , but not bad for DCA operations? Will DCA still operate or have the flights been cancelled?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
TheOldDude
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:31 pm

Reading this thread I get the feeling some think commercial interests should take precedence over our countries birthday celebration. But that’s OK because tolerance is a virtue, no matter what the view.
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 840
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:38 pm

alasizon wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
The coolness of AF1, Blue Angeles and an F35 fly over will outweigh a few delays on probably empty flights excluding the nonrevs.


Flights aren't going to be empty, you can expect probably a 50-70% LF averaged overall.

dtw9 wrote:
How many of you making comments on this will be personally impacted. Answer. None.

I can guarantee you, there will be several hundred (maybe a thousand) airline employees affected by this between those working at DCA, those working at the outstations/hubs, those working in the reservations departments, those dealing with re-routed passengers that were making connections in DCA etc. Couple that with the impact to ATC, passengers and the family/friends picking up said passengers and there is quite an impact.

jayunited wrote:
I'm totally disagreeing with you but the industry is seeing a lot of changes in the publics travel patterns on holidays.
Holidays like Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving and Christmas, airports across this country use to be dead not a whole lot of traffic. However, that has changed and so have the airlines schedules. Traveling on a holiday can be 5%or more cheaper than traveling in the days before or immediately after the holiday. Sometimes people will celebrate the holiday a day early so family and friends can take advantage of the savings if they book a ticket on the holiday. So while airlines are not running their full schedule it isn't the skeleton schedule it use to be years ago when very few people traveled on the actual holiday. Take Thanksgiving for instance airlines are running a full schedule the morning of Thanksgiving, it starts to taper down around 1pm eastern time through 12pm eastern Black Friday after 12pm eastern Black friday its full steam ahead for at least 20 hours. Christmas, airports are empty Christmas morning things start to pick up (the schedule picks up tremendously) around 2-3pm eastern and airlines are like UA are scheduling a full banks of flights out of places like ORD at 11pm, 12am and 1am on Christmas day. Just 5-6 years ago it was unheard of but the travel patterns behaviors have changed and so to have airlines schedules.

This is definitely more and more the trend, particularly in airports like PHX & DEN where the flows are predominately East & West as people move across the country. Last year on Christmas we had a near 90% LF which would have been unheard of a few years ago.

Blerg wrote:
I am sure they worked on this for months now and that airlines were informed in advance. I am sure many of them have removed flights from the booking systems or have simply re-scheduled them.

They haven't. The airlines were officially notified yesterday and everything as of right now is still loaded and planned. Airline schedules are finalized anywhere between 90 and 120 days upstream.

Ziyulu wrote:
The question is if airlines anticipated this event well advance before planning their schedules.

Given full schedules are loaded, clearly not.

izbtmnhd wrote:
This is thread has mostly overhyped nonsense from an operational standpoint.

There’s going to be an average of 100 people per flt on July 4th evening? C’mon.


Lets assume the average gauge is a 125 seat aircraft which is a likely decently close when you consider most flights are either 738/321/757s and then 76 seat RJs. A 70% load factor would put it around 87 people per flight, not counting those that are already in DCA awaiting their connections. Inbound loads are definitely going to be higher than the outbound loads so its not unreasonable to think that with some delayed inbounds; you could get close to that average.

izbtmnhd wrote:
We’re talking about one airport on a holiday evening.

Can we go back to having to pay to join the forum?

We have single airport centered topics all the time, usually they don't revolve around an airport being shut down for two hours with short notice. Everyone is entitled to have their opinions, regardless of whether they had previously paid to join the forums or not.

Passengers don't handle disruption to their holiday travel plans very well and in fact you will see more complaints from holiday travelers than most other groups simply because its "their" holiday to take off and now they have been inconvenienced.


It’s July the 4th evening. Load factors are not at 70% but planes do need to repositioned for the 5th hence all the flights.

Holiday travel plans? If you’re traveling on the night of the 4th you’re literally missing the highlight of the entire holiday. So those travelers very likely don’t care about it much anyway and are looking for a super cheap fare. We’ll there are risks going for the bottom of the barrel.

I mean this is common sense stuff. You have to literally ignore it’s a holiday to hype this up as some sort of massive nationwide travel inconvenience. Definitely politics and not operational.
 
alasizon
Posts: 1810
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:49 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
I mean this is common sense stuff. You have to literally ignore it’s a holiday to hype this up as some sort of massive nationwide travel inconvenience. Definitely politics and not operational.


I'm not hyping this up as a nationwide travel inconvenience. Rather simply stating its an inconvenience to probably about 8-9k worth of passengers plus the people picking them up/expecting them and then the employees dealing with it. As someone who works in the operation every single day, I'm pretty sure I know what an operational issue looks like.

izbtmnhd wrote:
It’s July the 4th evening. Load factors are not at 70% but planes do need to repositioned for the 5th hence all the flights.

Holiday travel plans? If you’re traveling on the night of the 4th you’re literally missing the highlight of the entire holiday. So those travelers very likely don’t care about it much anyway and are looking for a super cheap fare. We’ll there are risks going for the bottom of the barrel.


Some people work the 4th and then choose to take off Friday and make it a weekend getaway. There is a reason why airlines cut their capacity on the 5th-7th this year but left the 4th pretty much intact from everything I've seen. Is it high yielding traffic like Thanksgiving/Christmas, no. It is still holiday traffic though and people who expect for their plans to go smoothly.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
Babyshark
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:50 pm

I just remembered. If this creates problems for delta nationwide then I can go in to work after fireworks for an awesome greenslip double pay trip. I'm now excited for more than just an AF1, Blues, F35 flyover on tv and awesome boom booms on the Potomac.
 
BC77008
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:48 pm

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:16 pm

I just feel so bad for the passengers booked on these affected flights as well as the passengers booked on flights down line that will also be delayed. I feel bad for the affected airline crew members and the airport staff that will have to assuage many upset travelers during the delay. I also feel bad for all the service members being forced into this parade when they should be at home celebrating with their own cookouts and their own families.
MY favorite airline and hub is bigger and/or better than YOUR favorite airline and hub!
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:38 pm

KFTG wrote:
Hoping for rain.

Your hope may become a reality. Storms are in the forecast; and if the day runs like how it has the last three years, it will be a rainy day
 
Cody
Posts: 2240
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 12:16 pm

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:20 pm

I am a Captain scheduled to land a plane at 9:10 PM in DCA tonight. I worked on July 4th voluntarily knowing full-well there would be celebration disruptions. If I did not realize this I must have been asleep.

Enjoy the celebration!
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2272
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:22 pm

I'm willing to bet that it's gonna rain this afternoon in Washington DC.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
D L X
Posts: 12465
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:20 pm

Cody wrote:
I am a Captain scheduled to land a plane at 9:10 PM in DCA tonight. I worked on July 4th voluntarily knowing full-well there would be celebration disruptions. If I did not realize this I must have been asleep.

Enjoy the celebration!

Well, yes! Fireworks at 9:10pm are known years in advance. I don't know where your flight will be coming from, but I imagine that your plan was take off at the normal time and hold, if necessary, at DCA. I'm also going to guess it's your last flight of the day, but I'm open to correction.

How does that compare to the 90 minute closure at 6:15 today that was announced on Tuesday?

(You might not have seen it above, but I fly on July 4 a lot. I love seeing the fireworks from the air. Safe travels!)
 
Cody
Posts: 2240
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 12:16 pm

Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:21 pm

D L X wrote:
Cody wrote:
I am a Captain scheduled to land a plane at 9:10 PM in DCA tonight. I worked on July 4th voluntarily knowing full-well there would be celebration disruptions. If I did not realize this I must have been asleep.

Enjoy the celebration!

Well, yes! Fireworks at 9:10pm are known years in advance. I don't know where your flight will be coming from, but I imagine that your plan was take off at the normal time and hold, if necessary, at DCA. I'm also going to guess it's your last flight of the day, but I'm open to correction.

How does that compare to the 90 minute closure at 6:15 today that was announced on Tuesday?

(You might not have seen it above, but I fly on July 4 a lot. I love seeing the fireworks from the air. Safe travels!)


We don't know yet. I just spoke to dispatch and it is currently a "play it by ear" thing based on the first closure, weather, and the second closure. As of now the plan is to hold until it is over, but that could easily change with the above factors and of course ATC.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: DCA to close for July 4th Celebration

Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:01 pm

Because so many posts have been off topic, political, or personal attacks, the thread will be locked. The discussion can continue in the Non Aviation Forum.

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