xwb777
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Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:29 am

The Mayor of the Berlin, Germany Capital City, Mr. Michael Müller, has called to amend the ASAs between Germany and the UAE to allow Emirates rights in Berlin without dropping any of its 4 German cities it currently operates to, Frankfurt, Dusseldorf, Munich and Hamburg.

The Mayor has stated that the government of Berlin is looking forward for Emirates operations into Berlin if the air services agreement is renegotiated.

Müller’s predecessor Harald Wolf, sees that the lobby from Germany's largest airline, Lufthansa, is the main factor in not changing the agreements and thus allowing Emirates into Berlin. Lufthansa has been away from operating longhaul flights from Berlin and has chosen to mainly operates from its hubs at FRA and MUC.

Currently Emirates operates about 70 flights per week to Germany, carrying around 2.4 million passengers per year, according to the latest figures for 2016/17.

I see that in the future Emirates will be allowed access into Berlin. your thoughts?

Link: https://www.arabianbusiness.com/transpo ... fted-mayor
 
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enilria
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:45 am

Like many airlines, Lufthansa makes the most money when there’s no competition. With all the mergers and shutdowns in Germany long-haul they need to liberalize the bilateral. I understand the arguments made against Emirates, but the same arguments can be made against numerous airlines. I’ll still choose competition.
 
fraT
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:55 am

The mayor of Berlin should set his priority to finally open the airport BER and end this utter embarrassment for Germany.
 
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LH748
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:29 am

Berlin wants a lot of things
It's not particularly good at realizing them though :duck:
306 310 318 319 320 321 333 343 388 ATR72 733 737 738 739 743 744 748 752 753 763 764 772 77W 788 CRJ7 CRJ9 E170 F100 MD11 RJ1H
AA AB AC AF AK AZ BA DE DL EW FD FR HF HG IB IR MF KU LH LT LX OD TG TK TP UA VJ VN WN W6 YP YW
 
AirwayBill
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:32 am

Good! Not everyone wants to transit via FRA or MUC for intercontinental flights.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:33 am

what about new airport?
 
xwb777
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:49 am

Chancellor Angela Merkel has promised Sir Tim Clark landing rights once the new BER airport is open.
 
LUKAS10
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:01 pm

Being at TXL during the peak hours is an adventure. Berlin airports belong to the worst airports worldwide and the mayor should do his best to open the new one before even thinking of inviting Emirates.
 
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Lilienthal
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:08 pm

So basically "Yeah... another route would be great for the city". Of course the mayor of said city would say that. Pretty much a non-story.

Everything hinges on the completion of BER. Once it's open, more long haul routes will undoubtedly follow, especially through the growing LCLH market.

I couldn't care less about EK. I'd rather have a little diversity in destinations and airlines than QR, TK and then EK sucking up all eastbound traffic.
 
787X30
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:10 pm

Fact check: Berlin has EgyptAir, Royal Jordanian, Qatar and Turkish in that area.

Shows the no-competition-argument as a fairy tale, and a pretty tired one.

Lufty's competition in Berlin is the stiffest of any its German stations.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:20 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Chancellor Angela Merkel has promised Sir Tim Clark landing rights once the new BER airport is open.


I wonder if she meant that as a joke. Clever way of saying no.
 
VolvoBus
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:15 pm

How would negotiating at a national (German) level fit with the EU wanting to negotiate new agreements at a supra-national ( EU ) level ?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:28 pm

Lilienthal wrote:
So basically "Yeah... another route would be great for the city". Of course the mayor of said city would say that. Pretty much a non-story.

That sums it up. In this case EK has such an effective hub it would help the city economy.

We can discuss this seriously only after the new airport opening.

Lightsaber
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lightsaber
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:29 pm

VolvoBus wrote:
How would negotiating at a national (German) level fit with the EU wanting to negotiate new agreements at a supra-national ( EU ) level ?

Counties have been bypassing that unless open skies is on the table for the entire EU.

Lightsaber
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sw733
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:32 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Chancellor Angela Merkel has promised Sir Tim Clark landing rights once the new BER airport is open.


We'll see if AKK carries that along if/when she's in charge when BER finally opens.
 
caverunner17
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:59 pm

LUKAS10 wrote:
Being at TXL during the peak hours is an adventure. Berlin airports belong to the worst airports worldwide and the mayor should do his best to open the new one before even thinking of inviting Emirates.

I've flown out of TXL 3 times, twice for long haul (when AB still existed), and once on a FRA-TXL // TXL-MUC itinerary. I didn't find it horrible. Yeah, once you're past security there's not much to do and it's pretty run down, but I never waited more than 15 minutes on any of the flights for security, and it's just an easy bus ride from downtown. I'd rather fly out of there than ORD.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:05 pm

fraT wrote:
The mayor of Berlin should set his priority to finally open the airport BER and end this utter embarrassment for Germany.

BER isn't in Berlin, it's in Schönefeld. Schönefeld has their own mayor.
 
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thekorean
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:24 pm

LUKAS10 wrote:
Being at TXL during the peak hours is an adventure. Berlin airports belong to the worst airports worldwide and the mayor should do his best to open the new one before even thinking of inviting Emirates.

So in other words never
 
klakzky123
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:28 pm

VolvoBus wrote:
How would negotiating at a national (German) level fit with the EU wanting to negotiate new agreements at a supra-national ( EU ) level ?


The EU still allows for bilateral aviation agreements. I think Open Skies is the exception to the rule as that is done through an EU wide agreement. But as long as we're talking about modifying an existing German bilateral agreement, then there's no issue.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:41 pm

787X30 wrote:
Fact check: Berlin has EgyptAir, Royal Jordanian, Qatar and Turkish in that area.

Shows the no-competition-argument as a fairy tale, and a pretty tired one.

Lufty's competition in Berlin is the stiffest of any its German stations.


Are you suggesting that's an impressive list of non-EU carriers?
 
steman
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:51 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
LUKAS10 wrote:
Being at TXL during the peak hours is an adventure. Berlin airports belong to the worst airports worldwide and the mayor should do his best to open the new one before even thinking of inviting Emirates.

I've flown out of TXL 3 times, twice for long haul (when AB still existed), and once on a FRA-TXL // TXL-MUC itinerary. I didn't find it horrible. Yeah, once you're past security there's not much to do and it's pretty run down, but I never waited more than 15 minutes on any of the flights for security, and it's just an easy bus ride from downtown. I'd rather fly out of there than ORD.


This is usually the case most of the time. TXL is my home airport and my preferred choice in Berlin and it´s usually a very hassle free experience. Sure, the facilities are old and not that inviting but it´s still very conveniently placed from the city centre and especially the western boroughs of Berlin and it´s such a compact airport that from landing to getting onto the bus usually takes only few minutes. But it´s growing at very high rates and in summer it gets so crowded that people have been missing flights because lines at check in and securities where too long. All structures get overcrowded and it just becomes an embarassing and very unpleasant experience. Honestly I don´t see how EK could fill a 77W worth of people any time of the day between end of May and end of September. The rest of the year might still be feasable, albeit still subpar compared to most if not all of EK European destinations.
 
mchei
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:58 pm

fraT wrote:
The mayor of Berlin should set his priority to finally open the airport BER and end this utter embarrassment for Germany.


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EddieDude
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:36 pm

fraT wrote:
The mayor of Berlin should set his priority to finally open the airport BER and end this utter embarrassment for Germany.

But is opening the Berlin airport a responsibility of the Berlin mayor? As someone said, the airport is not even located within the Berlin city limits. I believe the project is owned by a company formed by Berlin, the Brandenburg state, and the federal government. In terms of government supervision, I would imagine a ministry or agency of the Brandenburg state would be responsible, but certainly not the Berlin mayor. Perhaps a federal ministry or agency too.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:14 pm

What are the current bilateral limits between Germany and the UAE? As for Berlin, I would actually see Flydubai as more appropriate as a route starter, if the current bilateral is not maxed out.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:31 pm

With the IAG/LATAM JV, there's no competition on the route and fares are sky high. I'm usually very skeptical of their plan of going into saturated markets but that route definitely has some possibilities.
 
philzh
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:42 pm

steman wrote:
Sure, the facilities are old and not that inviting (…)

That's exactly what is so great about TXL. It's still an airport, where one goes to board a plane, and not some kind of shopping mall that just happens to also have flights departing, like most modern airports where the need to monetize every last second of our life dictates everything.
 
cityshuttle
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:42 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
What are the current bilateral limits between Germany and the UAE? As for Berlin, I would actually see Flydubai as more appropriate as a route starter, if the current bilateral is not maxed out.


Bilateral allows only 4 destinations in Germany for UAE carriers, so EY / EK / FZ. Since EY and EK are already flying to FRA / MUC / DUS and EK on top to HAM, FZ couldn’t choose another airport besides those.

I highly doubt that EK would drop HAM, where they fly twice daily without competition from EY or even QR.

Also for that reason EY used AB to connect TXL to AUH via codeshare flights. Otherwise QR would have had the Berlin market to itself, like now after AB folded ... not to mention TK with several daily flights to IST (and SAW).
 
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Lilienthal
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:52 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
I didn't find it horrible. Yeah, once you're past security there's not much to do and it's pretty run down, but I never waited more than 15 minutes on any of the flights for security



If you fly legacy, it's still one of the best. Literally 20 meters from your taxi to your jet bridge. Fly low cost and it's a whole different ball game. Terminal C is a cow shed, almost as bad as SXF. I'm from Berlin and am super embarrassed every time I'm there. God help you if you need to go through security during peak hours...
 
ei146
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:53 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Chancellor Angela Merkel has promised Sir Tim Clark landing rights once the new BER airport is open.

So finally we know the real reason behind all the delays. ;)
 
fraT
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:19 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
fraT wrote:
The mayor of Berlin should set his priority to finally open the airport BER and end this utter embarrassment for Germany.

BER isn't in Berlin, it's in Schönefeld. Schönefeld has their own mayor.


Although it is correct that the airport itself is just outside of the Berlin city limits, the city/village of Schönefeld has no responsibility at all.
Responsible are the states of Berlin and Brandenburg as well as the federal government. However the mayor of Berlin was chairman of the board until two years ago. So he and his predecessor (famous Mr. Wowereit) definitely have a lot of responsibility.
But I don't want to deepen this discussion in this thread (since there is the other BER thread).
 
westgate
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:40 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
787X30 wrote:
Fact check: Berlin has EgyptAir, Royal Jordanian, Qatar and Turkish in that area.

Shows the no-competition-argument as a fairy tale, and a pretty tired one.

Lufty's competition in Berlin is the stiffest of any its German stations.


Are you suggesting that's an impressive list of non-EU carriers?


EgyptAir and Royal Jordanian perhaps not so much, but most definitely Qatar and Turkish, especially in terms of the number of one-stop eastbound destinations they offer. And as far as I'm aware, Qatar's level of service is superior to Emirates.

There's also Scoot, which provides low cost itineraries to South East Asia and Australia. Considering that Berlin is considerably poorer than most West German and West European cities, this is likely a very useful option for locals.

Although Emirates would certainly provide much more capacity and possible a slight increase in one-stop destination options, I don't think it would really add too much to what TXL already has. It's presence could also chase out some of the above mentioned airlines or cause them to reduce frequency/capacity.

Ultimately TXL/Berlin is quite lucky to have what it does at the moment, and considering that the other non-EU airlines that fly there are American, Delta, United and Hainan, I'd say that overall it is indeed a rather impressive list.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:02 pm

The EU handles most new agreements nowadays. They made an offer to Qatar as well as the UAE to renegotiate, but the UAE decided not to proceed. The Mayor of Berlin has a couple of times publicly said that he wishes EK as well, but his clout in national politics is somewhat limited. If he had the clout, he wouldn’t need to say it publicly ;-)
 
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LTU932
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:03 pm

cityshuttle wrote:
I highly doubt that EK would drop HAM, where they fly twice daily without competition from EY or even QR.
And they fly the A380 on one of their flights (the late flight if I checked correctly). Is BER even A380 capable? Or does the Mayor of Berlin Mr Müller want to continue the narrative of Klaus Wowereit on Berlin being "arm aber sexy"?
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
Blerg
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:41 pm

westgate wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
787X30 wrote:
Fact check: Berlin has EgyptAir, Royal Jordanian, Qatar and Turkish in that area.

Shows the no-competition-argument as a fairy tale, and a pretty tired one.

Lufty's competition in Berlin is the stiffest of any its German stations.


Are you suggesting that's an impressive list of non-EU carriers?


EgyptAir and Royal Jordanian perhaps not so much, but most definitely Qatar and Turkish, especially in terms of the number of one-stop eastbound destinations they offer. And as far as I'm aware, Qatar's level of service is superior to Emirates.

There's also Scoot, which provides low cost itineraries to South East Asia and Australia. Considering that Berlin is considerably poorer than most West German and West European cities, this is likely a very useful option for locals.

Although Emirates would certainly provide much more capacity and possible a slight increase in one-stop destination options, I don't think it would really add too much to what TXL already has. It's presence could also chase out some of the above mentioned airlines or cause them to reduce frequency/capacity.

Ultimately TXL/Berlin is quite lucky to have what it does at the moment, and considering that the other non-EU airlines that fly there are American, Delta, United and Hainan, I'd say that overall it is indeed a rather impressive list.



Let's not forget that since Berlin is pretty north, airlines such as Aeroflot and Finnair also offer a great deal of connections to Asia. AY has three daily to Berlin and so does Aeroflot (to SXF though). I wouldn't really go as far as to say that Berlin as a city isn't well connected.
 
cityshuttle
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:58 pm

LTU932 wrote:
And they fly the A380 on one of their flights (the late flight if I checked correctly). Is BER even A380 capable? Or does the Mayor of Berlin Mr Müller want to continue the narrative of Klaus Wowereit on Berlin being "arm aber sexy"?


Yes, the new BER airport has an A380 capable gate.


Blerg wrote:
westgate wrote:
Let's not forget that since Berlin is pretty north, airlines such as Aeroflot and Finnair also offer a great deal of connections to Asia. AY has three daily to Berlin and so does Aeroflot (to SXF though). I wouldn't really go as far as to say that Berlin as a city isn't well connected.


Eastbound connections to Asia are possible with:

AY ... 4 x daily to TXL
LO ... 3 x daily to TXL
SU ... 5 x daily to SXF

As mentioned before, don’t forget TK, they are flying 4-5 x daily TXL-IST as well as 1 x daily TXL-SAW (no long haul).

Besides the 1 x daily QR to DOH, one could also name the 6 x weekly HU to PEK and the 5 x weekly TR (Scoot) to SIN.
Last edited by cityshuttle on Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
rigo
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:12 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
what about new airport?


Hehe, I was about yo say that. If he could try to finally build and open a proper international airport, then maybe the airlines will come.
 
Kilopond
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:13 pm

westgate wrote:
[...]EgyptAir and Royal Jordanian perhaps not so much, but most definitely Qatar and Turkish, especially in terms of the number of one-stop eastbound destinations they offer. [...]


And don't forget the Asian networks of Aeroflot and Finnair which are both perfectly connected to Berlin.
 
rigo
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:18 pm

AirwayBill wrote:
Good! Not everyone wants to transit via FRA or MUC for intercontinental flights.


I disagree, MUC is actually a great airport and transit hub. FRA... well, if you like organised chaos.... Personally I flew to Berlin a couple of times transiting through CDG, that's of course another experience you want to avoid if you can. Although to be fair, CDG is not AS bad as some people make it to be, there is a certain method to its madness.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:27 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Chancellor Angela Merkel has promised Sir Tim Clark landing rights once the new BER airport is open.

Both will be out of office by the time BER opens, if it ever does.
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Kilopond
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:42 pm

AirwayBill wrote:
Good! Not everyone wants to transit via FRA or MUC for intercontinental flights.


This comment makes absolutely no sense because transitting via LHR, CDG, AMS, CPH and so on is just exactly the same in real life.
 
leftcoast8
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:57 pm

fraT wrote:
The mayor of Berlin should set his priority to finally open the airport BER and end this utter embarrassment for Germany.


You'll see Emirates in YVR or YYC before Brandenburg Airport opens for commercial service. In fact I can think of many other things that will probably happen before BER opens:

-Sea-Tac getting A380 gates
-Seattle getting an NBA franchise
-Liverpool winning the Premier League title
-Lindbergh Field/SAN getting a second runway
-Chicago Fire or New England Revolution winning the MLS Cup
-Nuclear fusion power at commercial scale
-Release of Star Citizen

(In rough order of how likely I think each is...:D)
 
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LTU932
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:36 pm

leftcoast8 wrote:
fraT wrote:
The mayor of Berlin should set his priority to finally open the airport BER and end this utter embarrassment for Germany.


You'll see Emirates in YVR or YYC before Brandenburg Airport opens for commercial service. In fact I can think of many other things that will probably happen before BER opens:

-Sea-Tac getting A380 gates
-Seattle getting an NBA franchise
-Liverpool winning the Premier League title
-Lindbergh Field/SAN getting a second runway
-Chicago Fire or New England Revolution winning the MLS Cup
-Nuclear fusion power at commercial scale
-Release of Star Citizen

(In rough order of how likely I think each is...:D)
The only way BER opens at this stage is if Walter Ulbricht states that nobody has the intention of building an airport and they surprise us just weeks later. :stirthepot:
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Berlin Mayor wants Emirates in Berlin

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:35 pm

LTU932 wrote:
leftcoast8 wrote:
fraT wrote:
The mayor of Berlin should set his priority to finally open the airport BER and end this utter embarrassment for Germany.


You'll see Emirates in YVR or YYC before Brandenburg Airport opens for commercial service. In fact I can think of many other things that will probably happen before BER opens:

-Sea-Tac getting A380 gates
-Seattle getting an NBA franchise
-Liverpool winning the Premier League title
-Lindbergh Field/SAN getting a second runway
-Chicago Fire or New England Revolution winning the MLS Cup
-Nuclear fusion power at commercial scale
-Release of Star Citizen

(In rough order of how likely I think each is...:D)
The only way BER opens at this stage is if Walter Ulbricht states that nobody has the intention of building an airport and they surprise us just weeks later. :stirthepot:


You mean we'll all go to bed on a Saturday night and wake up early Sunday morning and find it open and functioning.

I would also add to the list: "you'll see Bakersfield (BFL) announce the arrival of Southwest Airlines".

Has anyone ever done a study of how much money has been lost in the Berlin & Brandenburg state because of this fiasco?

It is utterly criminal that there are those who KNOWINGLY let this happen for personal profit - and are running around free. But worse than that are those who throw up their hands and say, "well, there's nothing that can be done - sucks to be you, Berlin!"

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