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2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:52 pm

I’ve always been a fan of boarding through 2L on the 757, especially when I get to turn left. However what a passenger prefers and an airline prefers can be very different.

Did airlines believe 2L/R on the 757 and 321 were an inefficient use of space?
 
mjzair
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:56 pm


Apparently not.
Jetblue just took delivery of their first A321 NEO without the 2L/R door.
 
MO11
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:12 pm

mjzair wrote:

Apparently not.
Jetblue just took delivery of their first A321 NEO without the 2L/R door.


That's a Flex, which doesn't have one. More space for seats.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:14 pm

MO11 wrote:
mjzair wrote:

Apparently not.
Jetblue just took delivery of their first A321 NEO without the 2L/R door.


That's a Flex, which doesn't have one. More space for seats.


Which will become the standard configuration for the A321 very soon. The NX configuration is a better use of space and is similar to the -900ER/-9/-10 door configuration.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:30 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
MO11 wrote:
mjzair wrote:

Apparently not.
Jetblue just took delivery of their first A321 NEO without the 2L/R door.


That's a Flex, which doesn't have one. More space for seats.


Which will become the standard configuration for the A321 very soon. The NX configuration is a better use of space and is similar to the -900ER/-9/-10 door configuration.


I’m not so sure that’ll wind up being true. The NEO pushes toward being a long-haul airplane, and at least some carriers will want mid-cabin lavs and/or galleys. The doors make much more sense in that sort of cabin configuration. I imagine the NEO fleet will wind up looking a lot like the worldwide 752 fleet with different operators taking different exit configurations (and, eventually, some operators with multiple configurations).
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flight152
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:40 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
MO11 wrote:

That's a Flex, which doesn't have one. More space for seats.


Which will become the standard configuration for the A321 very soon. The NX configuration is a better use of space and is similar to the -900ER/-9/-10 door configuration.


I’m not so sure that’ll wind up being true. The NEO pushes toward being a long-haul airplane, and at least some carriers will want mid-cabin lavs and/or galleys. The doors make much more sense in that sort of cabin configuration. I imagine the NEO fleet will wind up looking a lot like the worldwide 752 fleet with different operators taking different exit configurations (and, eventually, some operators with multiple configurations).

Long Haul? With a A321? Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here.
 
Natflyer
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:42 pm

questions wrote:
I’ve always been a fan of boarding through 2L on the 757, especially when I get to turn left. However what a passenger prefers and an airline prefers can be very different.

Did airlines believe 2L/R on the 757 and 321 were an inefficient use of space?


Works well on the 757 (and 767) for faster boarding.
 
VSMUT
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:50 pm

flight152 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

Which will become the standard configuration for the A321 very soon. The NX configuration is a better use of space and is similar to the -900ER/-9/-10 door configuration.


I’m not so sure that’ll wind up being true. The NEO pushes toward being a long-haul airplane, and at least some carriers will want mid-cabin lavs and/or galleys. The doors make much more sense in that sort of cabin configuration. I imagine the NEO fleet will wind up looking a lot like the worldwide 752 fleet with different operators taking different exit configurations (and, eventually, some operators with multiple configurations).

Long Haul? With a A321? Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here.


The A321XLR will be capable of over 10 hour long flights. That's pretty long in my book.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:50 pm

This hands down is why I hate flying the A321. If it weren’t for the fact it is the worst boarding experience it would be a great plane. Likewise, the 757 would be awful if not for the common 2L/R boarding. It’s just too long of an aircraft in single aisle.
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catiii
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:52 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
MO11 wrote:

That's a Flex, which doesn't have one. More space for seats.


Which will become the standard configuration for the A321 very soon. The NX configuration is a better use of space and is similar to the -900ER/-9/-10 door configuration.


I’m not so sure that’ll wind up being true. The NEO pushes toward being a long-haul airplane, and at least some carriers will want mid-cabin lavs and/or galleys. The doors make much more sense in that sort of cabin configuration. I imagine the NEO fleet will wind up looking a lot like the worldwide 752 fleet with different operators taking different exit configurations (and, eventually, some operators with multiple configurations).


Airbus won’t be offering it with the mid door going forward.
 
VSMUT
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:55 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
I’m not so sure that’ll wind up being true. The NEO pushes toward being a long-haul airplane, and at least some carriers will want mid-cabin lavs and/or galleys. The doors make much more sense in that sort of cabin configuration. I imagine the NEO fleet will wind up looking a lot like the worldwide 752 fleet with different operators taking different exit configurations (and, eventually, some operators with multiple configurations).


Does the lack of doors prevent them from putting in a lavatory and galley?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:08 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
I’m not so sure that’ll wind up being true. The NEO pushes toward being a long-haul airplane, and at least some carriers will want mid-cabin lavs and/or galleys. The doors make much more sense in that sort of cabin configuration. I imagine the NEO fleet will wind up looking a lot like the worldwide 752 fleet with different operators taking different exit configurations (and, eventually, some operators with multiple configurations).


Does the lack of doors prevent them from putting in a lavatory and galley?


No, though it makes servicing the galley tricky.
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:28 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
I’m not so sure that’ll wind up being true. The NEO pushes toward being a long-haul airplane, and at least some carriers will want mid-cabin lavs and/or galleys. The doors make much more sense in that sort of cabin configuration. I imagine the NEO fleet will wind up looking a lot like the worldwide 752 fleet with different operators taking different exit configurations (and, eventually, some operators with multiple configurations).


Does the lack of doors prevent them from putting in a lavatory and galley?


Mid cabin galleys without Doors slow down turn times. Widebodies like the 767 sometimes have them, but catering pushing carts down the aisle on turns slows down cabin cleaning. It is even worse when the galley has to be serviced after boarding starts. I would not expect many airlines to install a midcabin galley on an a321.
 
deebee278
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:32 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
This hands down is why I hate flying the A321. If it weren’t for the fact it is the worst boarding experience it would be a great plane. Likewise, the 757 would be awful if not for the common 2L/R boarding. It’s just too long of an aircraft in single aisle.


I also think that using 2L has a bit to do with ramp space. It's been a few years but on the 757 at Cancun on overnights, 2L was what they used. As for the 321, I tend to agree. I was to board a 321 through flight at ATL a couple weeks ago. It took twenty minutes for everyone to deboard and another twenty to clean the aircraft. Yea, I know it's Summer and many families are traveling.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:17 pm

2L boarding was always the exception, rather than the rule on the A321, the door is quite close to the engine by all accounts. bmi and Lufthansa used to use it, but I don’t know of others.

The doors do seem to be a poor use of space, without them EI can fit 16 Full-Flat Thomson Vantage and 168Y seats at 31”. In comparison the 757 seats 12J165Y
 
gaystudpilot
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:33 pm

2L is definitely a better F/J experience.
- During boarding you don’t have all of those Y passengers traipsing through the cabin looking at you.
- Because of the mid cabin lav, during flight you don’t have Y passengers walking through the front cabin, feeling the walls of the galley looking for the forward lav like zombies in the night.
 
rbavfan
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:05 am

flight152 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

Which will become the standard configuration for the A321 very soon. The NX configuration is a better use of space and is similar to the -900ER/-9/-10 door configuration.


I’m not so sure that’ll wind up being true. The NEO pushes toward being a long-haul airplane, and at least some carriers will want mid-cabin lavs and/or galleys. The doors make much more sense in that sort of cabin configuration. I imagine the NEO fleet will wind up looking a lot like the worldwide 752 fleet with different operators taking different exit configurations (and, eventually, some operators with multiple configurations).

Long Haul? With a A321? Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here.


Really. Before the widebody jets the 707 was the "long haul" airliner of choice.
707-120 137 pass, 3600nm, 174 @ 34"
707-320/420 141 pass, 3750nm, 189 @ 34"
707-320B 141 pass, 5000nm, 194 @ 32"

All had 6" narrower cabin than the A321 cabin.
So how do you question the A321 being considered long haul? History is on it's side
 
rbavfan
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:08 am

catiii wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

Which will become the standard configuration for the A321 very soon. The NX configuration is a better use of space and is similar to the -900ER/-9/-10 door configuration.


I’m not so sure that’ll wind up being true. The NEO pushes toward being a long-haul airplane, and at least some carriers will want mid-cabin lavs and/or galleys. The doors make much more sense in that sort of cabin configuration. I imagine the NEO fleet will wind up looking a lot like the worldwide 752 fleet with different operators taking different exit configurations (and, eventually, some operators with multiple configurations).


Airbus won’t be offering it with the mid door going forward.


I'll bet if enough demanded it or it was a large order they would do it.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:12 am

rbavfan wrote:
catiii wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I’m not so sure that’ll wind up being true. The NEO pushes toward being a long-haul airplane, and at least some carriers will want mid-cabin lavs and/or galleys. The doors make much more sense in that sort of cabin configuration. I imagine the NEO fleet will wind up looking a lot like the worldwide 752 fleet with different operators taking different exit configurations (and, eventually, some operators with multiple configurations).


Airbus won’t be offering it with the mid door going forward.


I'll bet if enough demanded it or it was a large order they would do it.


Precisely. It’s certified and IINM the doors are the same as 1L/R, so there isn’t a parts availability issue. I don’t think the extra overwing exit on the 319 was “available” either. That’s probably the best analogy.
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77H
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:26 am

ikolkyo wrote:
MO11 wrote:
mjzair wrote:

Apparently not.
Jetblue just took delivery of their first A321 NEO without the 2L/R door.


That's a Flex, which doesn't have one. More space for seats.


Which will become the standard configuration for the A321 very soon. The NX configuration is a better use of space and is similar to the -900ER/-9/-10 door configuration.


I wonder why Airbus chose to delete 2L/R instead of 3L/R? While boarding at 2L is rare, when done, it offers a little extra exclusivity for customers in F/J. Additionally 2L creates a little buffer between F/J and Y. Lastly, keeping 3L/R disrupts the Y cabin where are 2L/R usually separate the 2.

77H
 
Andy33
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:42 am

77H wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
MO11 wrote:

That's a Flex, which doesn't have one. More space for seats.


Which will become the standard configuration for the A321 very soon. The NX configuration is a better use of space and is similar to the -900ER/-9/-10 door configuration.


I wonder why Airbus chose to delete 2L/R instead of 3L/R? While boarding at 2L is rare, when done, it offers a little extra exclusivity for customers in F/J. Additionally 2L creates a little buffer between F/J and Y. Lastly, keeping 3L/R disrupts the Y cabin where are 2L/R usually separate the 2.

77H

Possibly because the majority of customers wanted it that way? A substantial number of airlines simply don't have F/J at all, or have a Eurobusiness configuration where the cabin divider can be in a different place between each trip
 
MIflyer12
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:04 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Really. Before the widebody jets the 707 was the "long haul" airliner of choice.
707-120 137 pass, 3600nm, 174 @ 34"
707-320/420 141 pass, 3750nm, 189 @ 34"
707-320B 141 pass, 5000nm, 194 @ 32"

All had 6" narrower cabin than the A321 cabin.
So how do you question the A321 being considered long haul? History is on it's side


The general conception of what's long-haul has changed in the last sixty years. Do you buy all of your music on mono LPs and consider it state-of-the-art?
 
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DL717
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:04 pm

Natflyer wrote:
questions wrote:
I’ve always been a fan of boarding through 2L on the 757, especially when I get to turn left. However what a passenger prefers and an airline prefers can be very different.

Did airlines believe 2L/R on the 757 and 321 were an inefficient use of space?


Works well on the 757 (and 767) for faster boarding.


This. Boarding a 739/321 is a pain. Wider aisle will fix it, but I don’t see that happening any time soon. I always thought the 763s without the L2 were a pain as well.
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DL717
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:06 pm

77H wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
MO11 wrote:

That's a Flex, which doesn't have one. More space for seats.


Which will become the standard configuration for the A321 very soon. The NX configuration is a better use of space and is similar to the -900ER/-9/-10 door configuration.


I wonder why Airbus chose to delete 2L/R instead of 3L/R? While boarding at 2L is rare, when done, it offers a little extra exclusivity for customers in F/J. Additionally 2L creates a little buffer between F/J and Y. Lastly, keeping 3L/R disrupts the Y cabin where are 2L/R usually separate the 2.

77H


No one used them because it was a smaller door (5’ tall vs 6’) and a little too close to the engine. Dumb move.
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trijetsonly
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:35 pm

DL717 wrote:
77H wrote:

I wonder why Airbus chose to delete 2L/R instead of 3L/R? While boarding at 2L is rare, when done, it offers a little extra exclusivity for customers in F/J. Additionally 2L creates a little buffer between F/J and Y. Lastly, keeping 3L/R disrupts the Y cabin where are 2L/R usually separate the 2.

77H


No one used them because it was a smaller door (5’ tall vs 6’) and a little too close to the engine. Dumb move.


That is not correct.
Boarding the A321 through 2L is common in Europe, did it many times myself.
Even though it's not full height, I like it and it's convenient as passengers split up there.

I also wonder about the reasoning of deleting 2L/R instead of 3L/R.
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sabby
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:59 pm

I think deleting 3L/R would reduce the exit limit even lower than 220.
 
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DL717
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:09 pm

trijetsonly wrote:
DL717 wrote:
77H wrote:

I wonder why Airbus chose to delete 2L/R instead of 3L/R? While boarding at 2L is rare, when done, it offers a little extra exclusivity for customers in F/J. Additionally 2L creates a little buffer between F/J and Y. Lastly, keeping 3L/R disrupts the Y cabin where are 2L/R usually separate the 2.

77H


No one used them because it was a smaller door (5’ tall vs 6’) and a little too close to the engine. Dumb move.


That is not correct.
Boarding the A321 through 2L is common in Europe, did it many times myself.
Even though it's not full height, I like it and it's convenient as passengers split up there.

I also wonder about the reasoning of deleting 2L/R instead of 3L/R.


The use is so statistically insignificant it’s not even worth mentioning.

And yes, my reason is precisely why it wasn’t used. It was designed as an emergency exit vs the double over-wing option. It just happened to be large enough to board through. Had a boarding door been the intent they would have made it a standard 6’ door. It also would have been located further from the engine. In the aircraft documentation from Airbus it’s even listed as an ”Emergency Exit” not a “Passenger/Crew Door”.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/25.807
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triple3driver
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:07 am

While it is uncommon to board an A321 from L2, it does occassionally happen, I've seen and experienced it numerous times with LH being the primary practitioner, though there are occasionally 2 or 3 others, I don't remember precisely which ones. However, we pretty much always boarded the 757 and 767 through L2, if there was an exception then it was like once or twice, and this is the case across if not all then somewhere around 98% of 757/767 operators. This is the exception for the A321 as the door is smaller and much closer to the engines, increasing the chance of aircraft damage. The thing is, the L2 door is still ideal for blue chip airlines who wish to offer premium cabins of a relatively modest size as that, plus exclusive lavatories and galleys for the premium passengers. However, some airlines want larger premium sections or none at all, which is where the ACF configuration is most useful, and just like with the 757 and 767, we'll likely see a mix of ACF and non ACF configurations being delivered depending on the individual airlines need. For instance, B6, and similar airlines will likely have a mix of ACF and non-ACF aircraft, while airlines like EI will likely only use the traditional layout, and budget airlines such as NK will probably only accept ACF airframes from now on
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767333ER
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:34 am

Almost everyone is missing the point here. These doors were removed in particular because having a set of doors in that position basically dictates how the cabin is set up. Generally speaking on the 757 configurations we would see all the seats between the front and the second doors be business class until DL started not doing this, but that made for a pretty awkward and confusing layout especially if those doors are used for boarding. The A321 is similar, the doors are a similar distance apart and they end up having to put more business class than they probably want, more seat pitch than they want, less business class than they want, or less seat pitch than they want, or some other odd configuration. And now we have companies putting lie-flats in there, why not just remove the thing and throw in some window exits which are easy to configure around and make everyone happy. That way the windows in the overwing rows line up better anyway, because the A321 has always had a place for the overwing exits and just never had them only keeping the awkwardly spaced windows.
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RyanairGuru
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:26 pm

Spot on.

Airbus are doing this to improve flexibility by allowing as much space as needed to fit a decent lie flat product, if the airline wants, or a small business cabin and large economy cabin if the airline wants. The current configuration basically dictates how big the front cabin is and you have to work within those dimensions.

Re galleys, I can't think of a single A321 operator with a galley at 2R.

Re lavatories, that's the airlines decision. There is no reason whatsoever that they can't install lavs behind business and before economy. United have a mid-cabin forward economy lav on their 737-900s whereas Delta was too cheap to do so, it's entirely up to the airline.
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Babyshark
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Re: 2L/R on 757 and 321... Inefficient Use of Space?

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:03 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
Spot on.

Airbus are doing this to improve flexibility by allowing as much space as needed to fit a decent lie flat product, if the airline wants, or a small business cabin and large economy cabin if the airline wants. The current configuration basically dictates how big the front cabin is and you have to work within those dimensions.

Re galleys, I can't think of a single A321 operator with a galley at 2R.

.


^^^ this

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