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UA857
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Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:09 pm

Recently I read an article from One Mile at a Time called American Permanently Cuts Chicago To China Flights (link: https://onemileatatime.com/american-cut ... a-flights/) I began to wonder why did AA choose ORD as their TPAC gateway instead of DFW if there already UA flying ORD-Asia?
 
rwsea
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:13 pm

Have you ever seen a map? DFW is totally out of the way for most of the country. ORD is a much larger metro area in its own right, and is a very convenient location for connections from the entire Eastern part of the US. DFW is out of the way unless you're connecting from the SE or Texas (not exactly the highest traffic areas to Asia).
 
x1234
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:25 pm

I don't know how much high yielding traffic AA is getting from Latin America either. The largest markets are GRU, MEX & EZE. GRU is faster to Asia via Europe/JNB/DXB and EZE you can go via AKL or Europe. MEX there's already non-stops to NRT (2x daily on AM & NH), ICN (west-bound fuel stop in MTY due to MEX elevation), PEK (TIJ elevation stop) & PVG (west-bound fuel stop in TIJ). Also in Canada (YVR, YYZ, YUL) its like Europe/Mexico where you can transit without entering the country.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:25 pm

Pretty sure DFW doesn't have an Asian population that's able to be compared to ORD's. Years ago when they applied for ORD-PVG/PEK, market conditions were more "favorable" for AA than they are today.

And... didn't AA apply for DFW-PEK in 2007?
 
x1234
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:29 pm

But the Asian population in DFW/IAH/AUS/SAT/ATL/CLT/RDU/MCO/MIA is GROWING especially Texas due to high tech which naturally has East Asia travel. As the front cabin is filling up (and by all accounts when I've searched for the flights the J cabin is 70-90% full) its a success.
 
YYZORD
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:30 pm

Actually you have to enter Canada when transiting in YYZ, YVR, and YUL unless you are going to a US transborder flight through Preclearance.

x1234 wrote:
I don't know how much high yielding traffic AA is getting from Latin America either. The largest markets are GRU, MEX & EZE. GRU is faster to Asia via Europe/JNB/DXB and EZE you can go via AKL or Europe. MEX there's already non-stops to NRT (2x daily on AM & NH), ICN (west-bound fuel stop in MTY due to MEX elevation), PEK (TIJ elevation stop) & PVG (west-bound fuel stop in TIJ). Also in Canada (YVR, YYZ, YUL) its like Europe/Mexico where you can transit without entering the country.
 
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chepos
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Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:34 pm

Can’t talk to the yield, but for example I know the DFW-LIM flight carries a lot of connections ex PEK/PVG. It is not rare to see half of the flight with pax connecting from those two destinations. Granted, most probably Chinese tourist, so most probably not the highest yielding.

I guess back then ORD made more sense than DFW. A ton of capacity on OAL has been added from ORD to Asia since then.


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Last edited by chepos on Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:36 pm

I would hardly call ORD an Asia gateway for AA considering all the service they have cut or scaled back.
 
kavok
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:45 pm

AA’s real TPAC gateway is LAX, though obviously they have several TPAC flights from their DFW megahub.

The real issue no one wants to discuss is that AA is slowly but surely becoming a smaller player in the Midwest compared to DL, UA, and WN. Maybe it will work out as the south is growing faster in population than the Midwest, but the fact that DL will be serving more Asian traffic from each of two separate Midwest hubs (MSP,DTW) than AA could from ORD (even with UA) shows how AA is prioritizing the Midwest long term.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:52 pm

Lack of competition combined with better connectivity. It makes up for DFW-Asia being about 1/4 in size as ORD-Asia in O&D.
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Ishrion
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:05 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I would hardly call ORD an Asia gateway for AA considering all the service they have cut or scaled back.


ORD *was* AA’s Asian gateway. Obviously it no longer holds the title considering it only has a 3x weekly flight to NRT.

Years ago it was the only AA hub with service to China until AA added DFW/LAX-PVG/PEK.
 
jfk777
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:17 pm

x1234 wrote:
But the Asian population in DFW/IAH/AUS/SAT/ATL/CLT/RDU/MCO/MIA is GROWING especially Texas due to high tech which naturally has East Asia travel. As the front cabin is filling up (and by all accounts when I've searched for the flights the J cabin is 70-90% full) its a success.


Its not hard for AA to have full J class cabins when their 787-8 have only 20 seats, the 787-9 seat 30 in Business Class. While the seats are nice, but they need more of them. Only the 777 have enough J class seats. AA should properly equip their 787-9 like Pacific partners JAL and Qantas do, if that means they should have a higher J class Pacific then so be it.

The reason AA got their tales quicked from ORD to China is their 787-8 didn't have enough J class seats to be profitable, they had 20. AA needs to take a page from United which is increasing Business Class seats, have you seen the Polaris 767 with so many J class seats they seat in total only 160 passengers. Parker has to remember he is not the CEO of Usairways anymore he is CEO of AA with longer routes from DFW & LAX.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:21 pm

jfk777 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
But the Asian population in DFW/IAH/AUS/SAT/ATL/CLT/RDU/MCO/MIA is GROWING especially Texas due to high tech which naturally has East Asia travel. As the front cabin is filling up (and by all accounts when I've searched for the flights the J cabin is 70-90% full) its a success.


Its not hard for AA to have full J class cabins when their 787-8 have only 20 seats, the 787-9 seat 30 in Business Class. While the seats are nice, but they need more of them. Only the 777 have enough J class seats. AA should properly equip their 787-9 like Pacific partners JAL and Qantas do, if that means they should have a higher J class Pacific then so be it.

The reason AA got their tales quicked from ORD to China is their 787-8 didn't have enough J class seats to be profitable, they had 20. AA needs to take a page from United which is increasing Business Class seats, have you seen the Polaris 767 with so many J class seats they seat in total only 160 passengers. Parker has to remember he is not the CEO of Usairways anymore he is CEO of AA with longer routes from DFW & LAX.


That's not the reason AA failed in ORD.

AA used to operate its highest F and J capacity aircraft on ORD-PVG/PEK, the old 772 with 16 first class seats and 37(?) business class seats.

That huge premium capacity obviously didn't work out for them, so they switched to the 788, which had 28 business class seats. That failed.

Note that AA never operated ORD-PEK/PVG using the 20J 28W 788 because the routes were already cut before retrofits for the aircraft began.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:17 pm

There's another reason: Distance.

ORD is a good 250-300nm closer to the bulk of Asia than is DFW. Back in the day, AA's longest ranged aircraft was their 772ERs, and IINM, AA they were all 648,000lb MTOWs back then.

Combine that with the greater O&D and shorter connectivity to the more of the country, and you likely a big component of why that choice was made.

jfk777 wrote:
While the seats are nice, but they need more of them. Only the 777 have enough J class seats.

Based on what criteria?
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atx11
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:13 am

atx11 wrote:
rwsea wrote:
Have you ever seen a map? DFW is totally out of the way for most of the country. ORD is a much larger metro area in its own right, and is a very convenient location for connections from the entire Eastern part of the US. DFW is out of the way unless you're connecting from the SE or Texas (not exactly the highest traffic areas to Asia).


Sorry need to address this post...So has the world map changed in the last 10 years? Because AA has more or less tossed ORD aside and we’ve seen DFW work.

Alone, ORD metro is approx 2M larger, yes, but there’s nearly 30M people just in Texas with very little competition to Asia. Once you include the southeast (Miami, ATL, etc), you have a very good base for Asia flights. As someone said in this thread, AA funnels a lot of Asia to Latin/South American traffic through DFW.

There’s a whole other world out there besides the northeast and west coast...
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:20 am

atx11 wrote:
atx11 wrote:
rwsea wrote:
Have you ever seen a map? DFW is totally out of the way for most of the country. ORD is a much larger metro area in its own right, and is a very convenient location for connections from the entire Eastern part of the US. DFW is out of the way unless you're connecting from the SE or Texas (not exactly the highest traffic areas to Asia).


Sorry need to address this post...So has the world map changed in the last 10 years? Because AA has more or less tossed ORD aside and we’ve seen DFW work.

Alone, ORD metro is approx 2M larger, yes, but there’s nearly 30M people just in Texas with very little competition to Asia. Once you include the southeast (Miami, ATL, etc), you have a very good base for Asia flights. As someone said in this thread, AA funnels a lot of Asia to Latin/South American traffic through DFW.

There’s a whole other world out there besides the northeast and west coast...


Chicago isn’t the northeast and Texas has competition to Asia. IAH has 5 carriers that fly there and DFW 3. That’s not bad.
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Ishrion
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:30 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
atx11 wrote:
atx11 wrote:

Sorry need to address this post...So has the world map changed in the last 10 years? Because AA has more or less tossed ORD aside and we’ve seen DFW work.

Alone, ORD metro is approx 2M larger, yes, but there’s nearly 30M people just in Texas with very little competition to Asia. Once you include the southeast (Miami, ATL, etc), you have a very good base for Asia flights. As someone said in this thread, AA funnels a lot of Asia to Latin/South American traffic through DFW.

There’s a whole other world out there besides the northeast and west coast...


Chicago isn’t the northeast and Texas has competition to Asia. IAH has 5 carriers that fly there and DFW 3. That’s not bad.


For DFW, if you really want to be specific about competition, technically has two given AA/JL have a JV. I believe AA/Korean Air even codeshare on DFW-ICN, so there's that.

If you really want to include everything... you could throw in Emirates/Qatar and count them as "Asia" unless we're talking about East Asia specifically.
 
atx11
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:38 am

Guys - I get what you’re saying. What I meant was there is most definitely an Asia market for this particular area. I know Chicago isn’t northeast (I lived there haha) but he referenced connecting traffic from the NE.

Edit: does anyone remember what the Asia flights were before the AA build up at DFW? What did IAH have?
 
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:54 am

YYZORD wrote:
Actually you have to enter Canada when transiting in YYZ, YVR, and YUL unless you are going to a US transborder flight through Preclearance.

x1234 wrote:
I don't know how much high yielding traffic AA is getting from Latin America either. The largest markets are GRU, MEX & EZE. GRU is faster to Asia via Europe/JNB/DXB and EZE you can go via AKL or Europe. MEX there's already non-stops to NRT (2x daily on AM & NH), ICN (west-bound fuel stop in MTY due to MEX elevation), PEK (TIJ elevation stop) & PVG (west-bound fuel stop in TIJ). Also in Canada (YVR, YYZ, YUL) its like Europe/Mexico where you can transit without entering the country.


YYZ, YUL, and YVR all have sterile ITI, not just to the US.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:56 am

atx11 wrote:
Guys - I get what you’re saying. What I meant was there is most definitely an Asia market for this particular area. I know Chicago isn’t northeast (I lived there haha) but he referenced connecting traffic from the NE.

Edit: does anyone remember what the Asia flights were before the AA build up at DFW? What did IAH have?


DFW-ICN launched May 9, 2013
DFW-PVG launched I believe June 12, 2014
I believe DFW-HKG launched the same day as PVG...?
DFW-PEK May 7, 2015

Given these dates, before the build up of PVG/HKG, IAH had:
Air China PEK-IAH launched July 11, 2013
...and Singapore Airlines? Not sure when they had SIN-Moscow-IAH?

ANA didn't start until 2015.
 
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:04 am

Almost the entire Asian continent lies north of the equator, which means that all great circle routes from the USA will tend north, so a southern city like Dallas is at a disadvantage because it is further from most of Asia than Chicago. Even in an era when aircraft can fly 16 hour routes, ORD is relatively more "on the way" to Asia for the majority of the US population (which lives east of the Mississippi and south of Chicago). DFW makes a great Latin America hub for the exact same reason.
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mpdpilot
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:12 am

I thought this dated back to some issues that American had with its pilots union. There were limits on the time a flight could be flown and DFW was out of range for most of asia. American intended to fly DFW-HKG with the MD-11 way back when but the aircraft didn't perform and the union issues prevented it. By the time they worked out the issues with their union there weren't a lot of options for flights to china but they launched DFW-ICN and DFW-HKG right away. With all the slots for teir 1 airports in china taken, I don't see what else they could fly to Asia from DFW that would make any sense.

Now this is just what I am remembering from various places so I don't know for sure, I am sure someone on here knows more than I do.
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Ishrion
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:20 am

mpdpilot wrote:
I thought this dated back to some issues that American had with its pilots union. There were limits on the time a flight could be flown and DFW was out of range for most of asia. American intended to fly DFW-HKG with the MD-11 way back when but the aircraft didn't perform and the union issues prevented it. By the time they worked out the issues with their union there weren't a lot of options for flights to china but they launched DFW-ICN and DFW-HKG right away. With all the slots for teir 1 airports in china taken, I don't see what else they could fly to Asia from DFW that would make any sense.

Now this is just what I am remembering from various places so I don't know for sure, I am sure someone on here knows more than I do.


DFW-TPE is a strong possibility: https://www.anna.aero/2018/03/07/dallas ... -searches/

Wouldn't be surprised if they one day launch another city in Japan or potentially return DFW-KIX.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:44 am

rwsea wrote:
Have you ever seen a map? DFW is totally out of the way for most of the country. ORD is a much larger metro area in its own right, and is a very convenient location for connections from the entire Eastern part of the US. DFW is out of the way unless you're connecting from the SE or Texas (not exactly the highest traffic areas to Asia).


Also already operating flights via LAX from Texas & parts of SE.
 
N649DL
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:01 am

AA didn't square away having the right aircraft types to Asia from DFW until the 787-8/9 and 773ER came around. That's why they got the 747SP in the late-1980s as no aircraft was capable of running DFW-NRT atthe time (until the M11, and that even that bird struggled a bit). Those flights are extremely long and ORD was a better fit at the time to launch them. Yet those flights were weak out of the gate because UAL is much stronger to Asia than AA from ORD.

However at the beginning of launch IIRC DFW-ICN was on a 772ER. At the time they seemed to be transitioning to building up the Asian network from DFW in general and taking away from ORD.
 
sabby
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:57 am

LAX772LR wrote:
There's another reason: Distance.

ORD is a good 250-300nm closer to the bulk of Asia than is DFW. Back in the day, AA's longest ranged aircraft was their 772ERs, and IINM, AA they were all 648,000lb MTOWs back then.

Combine that with the greater O&D and shorter connectivity to the more of the country, and you likely a big component of why that choice was made.


DFW is also much hotter than ORD, so that impacts on the aircraft performance even more.
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:08 am

ANC could have been to Asia/North America what DXB is to Europe/Asia.
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jfk777
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:01 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
There's another reason: Distance.

ORD is a good 250-300nm closer to the bulk of Asia than is DFW. Back in the day, AA's longest ranged aircraft was their 772ERs, and IINM, AA they were all 648,000lb MTOWs back then.

Combine that with the greater O&D and shorter connectivity to the more of the country, and you likely a big component of why that choice was made.

jfk777 wrote:
While the seats are nice, but they need more of them. Only the 777 have enough J class seats.

Based on what criteria?


Based on the criteria that successful international 787-9 operators have higher number of premium seats their 787-9. I would call BA, Qantas and JAL successful airlines and successful 787-9 operators. Or are you saying they are Not ?

If you are X generic airline then ORD is a better Asian gateway then a Texas based one which is one reason UA has man more Atlantic & Pacific international flights from ORD then Houston. IF you are AA you live and die by what happens in DFW, they own it and have limited competition since most foreign airlines fly to Houston. Its only natural that AA fly to all the usual Asian cities from DFW and whatever they fly from ORD would be less. AA flew for years to Shanghai from ORD and later to Peking, perhaps the routes diminished when they started DFW & LAX to China. Whatever the reasons its sad AA couldn't make China work from ORD and Hoping they do keep Tokyo.
 
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gdg9
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:31 pm

AA has DFW-ICN, NRT (2x), PEK, HKG right now so pretty good coverage at least for the main spots?
DFW-HND coming soon too.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:26 pm

Ishrion wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
atx11 wrote:


Chicago isn’t the northeast and Texas has competition to Asia. IAH has 5 carriers that fly there and DFW 3. That’s not bad.


For DFW, if you really want to be specific about competition, technically has two given AA/JL have a JV. I believe AA/Korean Air even codeshare on DFW-ICN, so there's that.

If you really want to include everything... you could throw in Emirates/Qatar and count them as "Asia" unless we're talking about East Asia specifically.


I was talking about East Asia only but you make a good point about the JV. That would mean DFW has two carriers that fly to Asia: AA/JL and KE and IAH has four: UA/NH, CA, BR, and SQ.
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chunhimlai
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:12 pm

AA never fly more transpacific destination from ORD than DFW
 
B752OS
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:30 pm

I wonder if Boston gaining non-stop flights to Asia hurt AA (and even UA) at Chicago? JAL started NRT-BOS in 2012 and since then a slew of other East Asian roues have started to Boston - Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong and now Seoul. I am willing to bet a number of people who used fly say PVD/MHT/PWM/BDL-ORD-Asia now opt to drive to Boston and get on the non-stop flight.

Chicago is a lot more convenient to capture this traffic than Dallas is.
 
golfingboy
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:43 pm

AA's international route network (TATL and TPAC) is a hot mess IMHO. Not as well defined, structured, or connected as DL or UA's network.

A big part of AA's problem is trying to make main gateways at airports that simply do not have the operational resources to be a major hub or has the capacity to build out for AA (i.e. PHL and LAX).

DFW and CLT are the only two hubs that have this capability, however AA has little interest in making CLT a major TATL hub other than a handful of trunk routes and DFW is not as well positioned geographically for the vast majority of the connections plus longer stage lengths are more costly to operate.
 
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JakubH
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:04 pm

golfingboy wrote:
AA's international route network (TATL and TPAC) is a hot mess IMHO. Not as well defined, structured, or connected as DL or UA's network.

A big part of AA's problem is trying to make main gateways at airports that simply do not have the operational resources to be a major hub or has the capacity to build out for AA (i.e. PHL and LAX).

DFW and CLT are the only two hubs that have this capability, however AA has little interest in making CLT a major TATL hub other than a handful of trunk routes and DFW is not as well positioned geographically for the vast majority of the connections plus longer stage lengths are more costly to operate.


I cannot agree.

PHL for TATL, LAX for TPAC, and DFW/MIA/LAX for LATAM seem like a good split, allowing AA to keep strengthening and growing its network.

I am most familiar with LAX: AA plans additional growth at the airport once new terminal space is added (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-450127/)
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FSDan
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:08 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
AA never fly more transpacific destination from ORD than DFW


This is incorrect. For at least a few years, AA flew ORD-NRT, ORD-PEK, and ORD-PVG while their only DFW-Asia service was a double daily DFW-NRT.
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mfe777
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:54 pm

gdg9 wrote:
AA has DFW-ICN, NRT (2x), PEK, HKG right now so pretty good coverage at least for the main spots?
DFW-HND coming soon too.


Don't forget about PVG, too.
 
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:05 pm

gdg9 wrote:
AA has DFW-ICN, NRT (2x), PEK, HKG right now so pretty good coverage at least for the main spots?
DFW-HND coming soon too.


PVG?

And HND replaces NRT, so it's not like it's growth.
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Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:14 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Almost the entire Asian continent lies north of the equator, which means that all great circle routes from the USA will tend north, so a southern city like Dallas is at a disadvantage because it is further from most of Asia than Chicago. Even in an era when aircraft can fly 16 hour routes, ORD is relatively more "on the way" to Asia for the majority of the US population (which lives east of the Mississippi and south of Chicago). DFW makes a great Latin America hub for the exact same reason.


Bingo!
If you are going to only fly somewhere from one non-west coast location, ORD makes more sense since it saves $ on the TPAC flight. All those connecting flights between cities in the US were going to be flying anyway. Unless there is significant O&D traffic for that route near DFW it doesn't make sense to do it from there.
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2815
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:15 pm

737max8 wrote:
gdg9 wrote:
AA has DFW-ICN, NRT (2x), PEK, HKG right now so pretty good coverage at least for the main spots?
DFW-HND coming soon too.


PVG?

And HND replaces NRT, so it's not like it's growth.


I don't recall any confirmation from AA about that?

Yes, it is reasonable that they may use 1 frequency to replace an existing NRT flight, but there hasn't been any confirmation.
 
User avatar
chepos
Posts: 7273
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:45 pm

737max8 wrote:
gdg9 wrote:
AA has DFW-ICN, NRT (2x), PEK, HKG right now so pretty good coverage at least for the main spots?
DFW-HND coming soon too.


PVG?

And HND replaces NRT, so it's not like it's growth.


HND/NRT replacement out of DFW has not been announced: At this point it is A.net speculation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6164
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:11 pm

chepos wrote:
737max8 wrote:
gdg9 wrote:
AA has DFW-ICN, NRT (2x), PEK, HKG right now so pretty good coverage at least for the main spots?
DFW-HND coming soon too.


PVG?

And HND replaces NRT, so it's not like it's growth.


HND/NRT replacement out of DFW has not been announced: At this point it is A.net speculation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It’ll definitely replace one of the two NRT flights.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:16 pm

chepos wrote:
737max8 wrote:
gdg9 wrote:
AA has DFW-ICN, NRT (2x), PEK, HKG right now so pretty good coverage at least for the main spots?
DFW-HND coming soon too.


PVG?

And HND replaces NRT, so it's not like it's growth.


HND/NRT replacement out of DFW has not been announced: At this point it is A.net speculation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it can be safely assumed. No way there are going to be four flights DFW-Tokyo, counting JL's flight.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:17 pm

chepos wrote:
737max8 wrote:
gdg9 wrote:
AA has DFW-ICN, NRT (2x), PEK, HKG right now so pretty good coverage at least for the main spots?
DFW-HND coming soon too.


PVG?

And HND replaces NRT, so it's not like it's growth.


HND/NRT replacement out of DFW has not been announced: At this point it is A.net speculation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it can be safely assumed. No way there are going to be four flights DFW-Tokyo, counting JL's flight.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Posts: 901
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:31 pm

golfingboy wrote:
AA's international route network (TATL and TPAC) is a hot mess IMHO. Not as well defined, structured, or connected as DL or UA's network.


Looking at AA Net Income from international flights for the past 17 years would seem to confirm your hypothesis. They have not had a positive net income from TPAC since 2nd quarter 2016.

Year   Qtr   LATIN   ATLANTIC   PACIFIC
2019   1   $231,467   -$89,519   -$79,097
2018   4   $193,458   -$46,326   -$129,454
2018   3   $224,840   $150,423   -$89,159
2018   2   $226,664   +$82,800   -$88,581
2018   1   $308,068   -$75,869   -$128,485
2017   4   $100,842   -$77,823   -$119,549
2017   3   $228,828   $126,497   -$55,905
2017   2   $118,670   +$86,791   -$70,023
2017   1   $76,730   -$43,458   -$100,575
2016   4   $107,984   -$72,353   -$79,254
2016   3   $177,630   $115,350   -$27,389
2016   2   $298,509   $103,518   $292,320
2016   1   $306,731   +$69,018   $315,686
2015   4   $88,080   +$45,755   $74,005
2015   3   $242,532   $269,125   $111,562
2015   2   $128,827   $179,952   $118,490
2015   1   $114,534   $61,089   $89,627
2014   4   $50,552   $6,832   -$80,760
2014   3   $48,275   $157,195   -$37,141
2014   2   -$1,700   $94,547   -$53,884
2014   1   $209,896   -$8,070   -$46,815
2013   4   -$257,172   -$254,591   -$173,517
2013   3   $204,265   $113,783   -$68,570
2013   2   $103,164   $80,866   -$62,992
2013   1   $114,791   -$59,546   -$88,282
2012   4   $221,469   -$10,276   -$37,391
2012   3   $131,260   -$31,803   -$37,401
2012   2   $35,982   -$47,361   -$59,632
2012   1   -$213,935   -$251,383   -$142,256
2011   4   -$6,258   -$217,752   -$94,946
2011   3   $214,901   -$148,509   -$110,030
2011   2   $24,935   -$194,868   -$118,472
2011   1   $146,499   -$108,290   -$39,742
2010   4   $35,656   -$126,799   -$27,647
2010   3   $31,100   $16,023   $1,235
2010   2   -$56,922   $10,497   -$2,824
2010   1   -$5,733   -$99,168   -$34,647
2009   4   $41,183   -$56,212   -$25,027
2009   3   $2,663   -$36,279   -$25,783
2009   2   -$57,647   -$64,354   -$27,311
2009   1   $70,892   -$112,440   -$18,439
2008   4   $28,392   -$236,507   -$77,663
2008   3   $90,254   $18,052   -$6,302
2008   2   -$197,453   -$185,177   -$52,332
2008   1   $86,496   -$74,323   -$16,111
2007   4   $80,518   $5,611   $5,506
2007   3   $66,556   $131,710   $17,553
2007   2   $47,505   $126,511   $13,345
2007   1   $116,720   $35,000   -$244
2006   4   $80,720   $38,752   $2,018
2006   3   $51,269   $129,004   -$11,261
2006   2   $46,597   $130,574   -$16,307
2006   1   $37,553   -$10,455   -$24,511
2005   4   -$85,680   -$33,565   -$44,542
2005   3   -$3,100   $136,278   -$24,429
2005   2   -$14,307   $115,314   -$14,836
2005   1   $33,014   $27,244   -$8,113
2004   4   -$27,649   $12,713   $8,219
2004   3   -$29,392   $117,028   $14,653
2004   2   $32,710   $156,040   $34,071
2004   1   $92,037   $61,890   $21,563
2003   4   $63,386   $74,234   $28,009
2003   3   $79,002   $144,784   $28,694
2003   2   $30,279   $118,489   $2,767
2003   1   -$28,634   -$29,409   -$10,401
2002   4   -$63,349   -$54,632   -$7,060
2002   3   -$41,698   -$23,911   $4,086
2002   2   -$51,603   -$21,324   $175
2002   1   -$178,906   -$137,252   -$15,478
2001   4   -$59,064   -$65,485   -$12,963
2001   3   $34,759   $43,902   $17,907
2001   2   -$21,275   $51,622   $5,912
2001   1   $43,767   -$15,164   $13,618
2000   4   -$1,731   $5,286   $3,231
2000   3   $30,453   $81,248   $15,119
2000   2   $16,586   $67,547   $12,979
2000   1   $23,551   $442   $11,483

 
dc10lover
Posts: 1594
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:17 pm

Maybe Chicago is more of a major business destination than Dallas.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6164
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:52 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
golfingboy wrote:
AA's international route network (TATL and TPAC) is a hot mess IMHO. Not as well defined, structured, or connected as DL or UA's network.


Looking at AA Net Income from international flights for the past 17 years would seem to confirm your hypothesis. They have not had a positive net income from TPAC since 2nd quarter 2016.

Year   Qtr   LATIN   ATLANTIC   PACIFIC
2019   1   $231,467   -$89,519   -$79,097
2018   4   $193,458   -$46,326   -$129,454
2018   3   $224,840   $150,423   -$89,159
2018   2   $226,664   +$82,800   -$88,581
2018   1   $308,068   -$75,869   -$128,485
2017   4   $100,842   -$77,823   -$119,549
2017   3   $228,828   $126,497   -$55,905
2017   2   $118,670   +$86,791   -$70,023
2017   1   $76,730   -$43,458   -$100,575
2016   4   $107,984   -$72,353   -$79,254
2016   3   $177,630   $115,350   -$27,389
2016   2   $298,509   $103,518   $292,320
2016   1   $306,731   +$69,018   $315,686
2015   4   $88,080   +$45,755   $74,005
2015   3   $242,532   $269,125   $111,562
2015   2   $128,827   $179,952   $118,490
2015   1   $114,534   $61,089   $89,627
2014   4   $50,552   $6,832   -$80,760
2014   3   $48,275   $157,195   -$37,141
2014   2   -$1,700   $94,547   -$53,884
2014   1   $209,896   -$8,070   -$46,815
2013   4   -$257,172   -$254,591   -$173,517
2013   3   $204,265   $113,783   -$68,570
2013   2   $103,164   $80,866   -$62,992
2013   1   $114,791   -$59,546   -$88,282
2012   4   $221,469   -$10,276   -$37,391
2012   3   $131,260   -$31,803   -$37,401
2012   2   $35,982   -$47,361   -$59,632
2012   1   -$213,935   -$251,383   -$142,256
2011   4   -$6,258   -$217,752   -$94,946
2011   3   $214,901   -$148,509   -$110,030
2011   2   $24,935   -$194,868   -$118,472
2011   1   $146,499   -$108,290   -$39,742
2010   4   $35,656   -$126,799   -$27,647
2010   3   $31,100   $16,023   $1,235
2010   2   -$56,922   $10,497   -$2,824
2010   1   -$5,733   -$99,168   -$34,647
2009   4   $41,183   -$56,212   -$25,027
2009   3   $2,663   -$36,279   -$25,783
2009   2   -$57,647   -$64,354   -$27,311
2009   1   $70,892   -$112,440   -$18,439
2008   4   $28,392   -$236,507   -$77,663
2008   3   $90,254   $18,052   -$6,302
2008   2   -$197,453   -$185,177   -$52,332
2008   1   $86,496   -$74,323   -$16,111
2007   4   $80,518   $5,611   $5,506
2007   3   $66,556   $131,710   $17,553
2007   2   $47,505   $126,511   $13,345
2007   1   $116,720   $35,000   -$244
2006   4   $80,720   $38,752   $2,018
2006   3   $51,269   $129,004   -$11,261
2006   2   $46,597   $130,574   -$16,307
2006   1   $37,553   -$10,455   -$24,511
2005   4   -$85,680   -$33,565   -$44,542
2005   3   -$3,100   $136,278   -$24,429
2005   2   -$14,307   $115,314   -$14,836
2005   1   $33,014   $27,244   -$8,113
2004   4   -$27,649   $12,713   $8,219
2004   3   -$29,392   $117,028   $14,653
2004   2   $32,710   $156,040   $34,071
2004   1   $92,037   $61,890   $21,563
2003   4   $63,386   $74,234   $28,009
2003   3   $79,002   $144,784   $28,694
2003   2   $30,279   $118,489   $2,767
2003   1   -$28,634   -$29,409   -$10,401
2002   4   -$63,349   -$54,632   -$7,060
2002   3   -$41,698   -$23,911   $4,086
2002   2   -$51,603   -$21,324   $175
2002   1   -$178,906   -$137,252   -$15,478
2001   4   -$59,064   -$65,485   -$12,963
2001   3   $34,759   $43,902   $17,907
2001   2   -$21,275   $51,622   $5,912
2001   1   $43,767   -$15,164   $13,618
2000   4   -$1,731   $5,286   $3,231
2000   3   $30,453   $81,248   $15,119
2000   2   $16,586   $67,547   $12,979
2000   1   $23,551   $442   $11,483



Looking at those pacific numbers I don’t know that ORD can be the scapegoat for all of it. There’s definitely money loss at LAX and DFW over the Pacific.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
dfw88
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:25 pm

Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:39 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
golfingboy wrote:
AA's international route network (TATL and TPAC) is a hot mess IMHO. Not as well defined, structured, or connected as DL or UA's network.


Looking at AA Net Income from international flights for the past 17 years would seem to confirm your hypothesis. They have not had a positive net income from TPAC since 2nd quarter 2016.

Year   Qtr   LATIN   ATLANTIC   PACIFIC
2019   1   $231,467   -$89,519   -$79,097
2018   4   $193,458   -$46,326   -$129,454
2018   3   $224,840   $150,423   -$89,159
2018   2   $226,664   +$82,800   -$88,581
2018   1   $308,068   -$75,869   -$128,485
2017   4   $100,842   -$77,823   -$119,549
2017   3   $228,828   $126,497   -$55,905
2017   2   $118,670   +$86,791   -$70,023
2017   1   $76,730   -$43,458   -$100,575
2016   4   $107,984   -$72,353   -$79,254
2016   3   $177,630   $115,350   -$27,389
2016   2   $298,509   $103,518   $292,320
2016   1   $306,731   +$69,018   $315,686
2015   4   $88,080   +$45,755   $74,005
2015   3   $242,532   $269,125   $111,562
2015   2   $128,827   $179,952   $118,490
2015   1   $114,534   $61,089   $89,627
2014   4   $50,552   $6,832   -$80,760
2014   3   $48,275   $157,195   -$37,141
2014   2   -$1,700   $94,547   -$53,884
2014   1   $209,896   -$8,070   -$46,815
2013   4   -$257,172   -$254,591   -$173,517
2013   3   $204,265   $113,783   -$68,570
2013   2   $103,164   $80,866   -$62,992
2013   1   $114,791   -$59,546   -$88,282
2012   4   $221,469   -$10,276   -$37,391
2012   3   $131,260   -$31,803   -$37,401
2012   2   $35,982   -$47,361   -$59,632
2012   1   -$213,935   -$251,383   -$142,256
2011   4   -$6,258   -$217,752   -$94,946
2011   3   $214,901   -$148,509   -$110,030
2011   2   $24,935   -$194,868   -$118,472
2011   1   $146,499   -$108,290   -$39,742
2010   4   $35,656   -$126,799   -$27,647
2010   3   $31,100   $16,023   $1,235
2010   2   -$56,922   $10,497   -$2,824
2010   1   -$5,733   -$99,168   -$34,647
2009   4   $41,183   -$56,212   -$25,027
2009   3   $2,663   -$36,279   -$25,783
2009   2   -$57,647   -$64,354   -$27,311
2009   1   $70,892   -$112,440   -$18,439
2008   4   $28,392   -$236,507   -$77,663
2008   3   $90,254   $18,052   -$6,302
2008   2   -$197,453   -$185,177   -$52,332
2008   1   $86,496   -$74,323   -$16,111
2007   4   $80,518   $5,611   $5,506
2007   3   $66,556   $131,710   $17,553
2007   2   $47,505   $126,511   $13,345
2007   1   $116,720   $35,000   -$244
2006   4   $80,720   $38,752   $2,018
2006   3   $51,269   $129,004   -$11,261
2006   2   $46,597   $130,574   -$16,307
2006   1   $37,553   -$10,455   -$24,511
2005   4   -$85,680   -$33,565   -$44,542
2005   3   -$3,100   $136,278   -$24,429
2005   2   -$14,307   $115,314   -$14,836
2005   1   $33,014   $27,244   -$8,113
2004   4   -$27,649   $12,713   $8,219
2004   3   -$29,392   $117,028   $14,653
2004   2   $32,710   $156,040   $34,071
2004   1   $92,037   $61,890   $21,563
2003   4   $63,386   $74,234   $28,009
2003   3   $79,002   $144,784   $28,694
2003   2   $30,279   $118,489   $2,767
2003   1   -$28,634   -$29,409   -$10,401
2002   4   -$63,349   -$54,632   -$7,060
2002   3   -$41,698   -$23,911   $4,086
2002   2   -$51,603   -$21,324   $175
2002   1   -$178,906   -$137,252   -$15,478
2001   4   -$59,064   -$65,485   -$12,963
2001   3   $34,759   $43,902   $17,907
2001   2   -$21,275   $51,622   $5,912
2001   1   $43,767   -$15,164   $13,618
2000   4   -$1,731   $5,286   $3,231
2000   3   $30,453   $81,248   $15,119
2000   2   $16,586   $67,547   $12,979
2000   1   $23,551   $442   $11,483



Can you provide a source for these numbers?
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1797
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:40 pm

ORD is good for getting to Asia from the eastern half of the country and I suppose anything from the west would go via LA or SFO. Between those three they can pretty much connect every city in the USA to Asia with a fairly direct route.
 
atx11
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:41 am

dc10lover wrote:
Maybe Chicago is more of a major business destination than Dallas.


It’s a confusing thread title but Dallas has already “won” the battle here by being one of AA’s TPAC gateways.

Not sure why people keep chiming in to say why it should be Chicago instead of Dallas when it’s already been decided by management.

People seem to either not know or not understand that there is a tremendous amount of Asia traffic that gets routed through DFW to Latin/S. America. Trade between China specifically and S America is only going to grow and obviously there are a lack of direct options.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7352
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Why did AA choose ORD as its TPAC Gateway instead of DFW?

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:03 am

atx11 wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
Maybe Chicago is more of a major business destination than Dallas.


It’s a confusing thread title but Dallas has already “won” the battle here by being one of AA’s TPAC gateways.

Not sure why people keep chiming in to say why it should be Chicago instead of Dallas when it’s already been decided by management.

People seem to either not know or not understand that there is a tremendous amount of Asia traffic that gets routed through DFW to Latin/S. America. Trade between China specifically and S America is only going to grow and obviously there are a lack of direct options.


DFW has always been the main hub for AA and everything else is secondary. AA owns DFW, at ORD they have always been slightly smaller than United. IN Chicago AA is not only up against United from ORD to Asia but UA's entire Pacific system. That is not to say that AA couldn't be successful from ORD to Japan and China, AA is just going to be bigger in DFW since there is limited competition to Asia, at ORD every airline from Asia flies to Chicago. Hoping AA maintains their own daily nonstop to Tokyo. AA wants JAL to have their flight too from ORD to Tokyo.

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