ltbewr
Posts: 14168
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:08 pm

Is the plane with the incident still on the ground in BOS ? What happened to the passengers ?
I would presume an inspection and investigation of the cause would have to take place, that could be done in a day or so, but repairs may take longer depending on the level of damage done. If only the seat was damaged, that could be removed or the damaged parts removed, the seat and adjacent one blocked for use on a flight. If the interior cabin wall or floor was damaged that might mean a local repair done in BOS or even ferried to VS's main mx facilities in the UK.
 
EK77WNH
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:42 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:17 pm

I saw no evidence of any sort of ‘rescue flight,’ but with this being the high season and LF being in the 90’s all around, simply putting people on other flights seems like a challenge.

In any event, the plane itself did leave Boston late last night.
Next Trip:
JAL 7-8 BOS-NRT-BOS, 787-9
September
 
sixfootscream
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:26 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
Delta safety video now says: “If you lose an electronic device between your seat, do not adjust your seat and ask a crew member for assistance.”


EK, LH and FZ do the same!
 
usa330300
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:29 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:46 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
I know that 'bricks' are not allowed when flying from Europe into the US, but how is it the other way around?
Never heard that they aren't allowed before, I took one on every flight I have taken to the US in the last few years (x 6) in the last 2 years. In fact they tell you that if you drop them in the seat to tell a member of the crew and not to try and get it yourself so they must know you have them.

Fred

Please leave you electronic devices and ancillary equipment at home. No need to bring a plane down because you feel the urge to talk and gab on a phone.
 
EK77WNH
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:42 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:48 pm

usa330300 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
I know that 'bricks' are not allowed when flying from Europe into the US, but how is it the other way around?
Never heard that they aren't allowed before, I took one on every flight I have taken to the US in the last few years (x 6) in the last 2 years. In fact they tell you that if you drop them in the seat to tell a member of the crew and not to try and get it yourself so they must know you have them.

Fred

Please leave you electronic devices and ancillary equipment at home. No need to bring a plane down because you feel the urge to talk and gab on a phone.


Listen to the Man ^^^^^^ :lol:
Next Trip:
JAL 7-8 BOS-NRT-BOS, 787-9
September
 
JamesCousins
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:03 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Is the plane with the incident still on the ground in BOS ? What happened to the passengers ?
I would presume an inspection and investigation of the cause would have to take place, that could be done in a day or so, but repairs may take longer depending on the level of damage done. If only the seat was damaged, that could be removed or the damaged parts removed, the seat and adjacent one blocked for use on a flight. If the interior cabin wall or floor was damaged that might mean a local repair done in BOS or even ferried to VS's main mx facilities in the UK.


Positioned back to LHR last night empty. Source: http://thevssource.com/virgin-atlantic-a330-300-g-vkss-returns-from-boston-2/
Q400, A320-200, A321-200, 737-500, 737-800, 747-400, 757-200, 787-9 // FCA, TOM, TUI, MON, MT, BA, VS, DL, BE, X9, OLY
 
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JetBuddy
Posts: 2157
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:46 pm

sergegva wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:

I would expect there would be no practical way of doing so.


Checked luggage is screened with X-ray just like everything else. There's a computer algorithm checking the x-rays images, and if the computer sees an anomaly, it goes through x-ray again and this time screened by a security person. The security person can then interpret the x-ray - and either give it a thumbs up, or a thumbs down. If the thumbs down is given, it goes to manual check by another security person who can open the luggage and physically check it. They usually get the passenger to open it.

At least that's how it was done 15 years ago in Norway. And the computer algorithms have gotten better in that time. So there is screening of checked luggage too.


Well... I just got off a BA flight today, during which I stupidly forgot two power banks in my checked baggage. Both devices were still in my checked baggage when I landed !


Yes, it's not 100% fool proof. That's impossible to achieve. The philosophy behind airport security is to make it unpredictable enough so that anyone with bad intentions can't rig the system or take a chance.

If a system is rigid and works exactly the same every time it's used, it's much easier for a bad actor to test it, adjust their strategy and fool it. If you introduce some randomness to it, it's much harder to bypass.

Anyways, it's probably not that smart to explain every little detail of how it works. And my knowledge of it is from 15-20 years ago anyway.
 
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GCT64
Posts: 1706
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:35 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Is the plane with the incident still on the ground in BOS ? What happened to the passengers ?
I would presume an inspection and investigation of the cause would have to take place, that could be done in a day or so, but repairs may take longer depending on the level of damage done. If only the seat was damaged, that could be removed or the damaged parts removed, the seat and adjacent one blocked for use on a flight. If the interior cabin wall or floor was damaged that might mean a local repair done in BOS or even ferried to VS's main mx facilities in the UK.


G-VKSS diverted into BOS on evening of 4 July, then positioned last night (5 July) overnight to LHR as VIR838P. So it was on the ground in BOS ~24 hours before leaving again.
Flown in: A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..55 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
cschleic
Posts: 1669
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:14 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
I hope in a thorough investigation and heavy fines if rules haven't been followed. I can't imagine battery banks while there are plugs everywhere nowadays in biz and even economy for some a/c.


So what are travelers supposed to do on the other end...buy a new brick every time they arrive? For weekly business flyers? Besides, plugs aren't everywhere nowadays. Since it's the battery that's the issue, then that means the cell phones themselves, tablets, etc. (including those that the flight attendants and, oh, the pilots for their EFBs use) should be limited as well?
 
travaz
Posts: 845
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:44 pm

I believe a lot of the problem stems from some of the cheap junk that is available on the web sites. Granted a physically damaged battery is a danger no matter how well it was made. I recently bought 2 one for myself and one for my son. After looking into the matter I found that the Lithium ion batteries have high energy density and cost less than lithium polymer. Lithium polymer batteries are light weight and have improved safety . However their cost is high (30% average) as compared to lithium ion. Also the the energy density of Li-Polymer battery compared to Li-Ion Batteries is quite less. Having said this Li-PO batteries have thier limitations also and are not fool proof. My point is try to buy from a reliable manufacture that offers heat and voltage protection. Stay away from the ones that are very cheap. This are many small pouches and bags that are advertised as Li-PO and Li-ON fire resistant. "The Lipo safe bag is intended to reduce the chances of damaged in the event of a lipo fire." This may be a good way to reduce the hazard. At least if you have a problem it can contain it for a period and can be suppressed safely. I have ordered 2 of these bags to use when flying. The cost of the bags are very low. It is a responsible thing to do if you intend to carry these batteries on board.
 
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longhauler
Posts: 6274
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:41 am

sergegva wrote:

Well... I just got off a BA flight today, during which I stupidly forgot two power banks in my checked baggage. Both devices were still in my checked baggage when I landed !

You are lucky you weren’t caught.

Where I fly, dangerous goods violations (even unintentional ones) are often met with fines approaching tens of thousands of dollars with added jail terms. Not to mention .... had a thermal run away occurred, you wouldn’t be talking about it right now. No passenger transport aircraft has the facility to fight such a fire in cargo holds.

The airlines are very aware how dangerous this can be and aren’t playing around any more. I imagine if you received a $10,000 fine and three months in jail as well as ending up on a Community No Fly list ..... you’d probably check twice next time. ;)
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
carlokiii
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:03 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:04 am

JetBuddy wrote:
sergegva wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:

Checked luggage is screened with X-ray just like everything else. There's a computer algorithm checking the x-rays images, and if the computer sees an anomaly, it goes through x-ray again and this time screened by a security person. The security person can then interpret the x-ray - and either give it a thumbs up, or a thumbs down. If the thumbs down is given, it goes to manual check by another security person who can open the luggage and physically check it. They usually get the passenger to open it.

At least that's how it was done 15 years ago in Norway. And the computer algorithms have gotten better in that time. So there is screening of checked luggage too.


Well... I just got off a BA flight today, during which I stupidly forgot two power banks in my checked baggage. Both devices were still in my checked baggage when I landed !


Yes, it's not 100% fool proof. That's impossible to achieve. The philosophy behind airport security is to make it unpredictable enough so that anyone with bad intentions can't rig the system or take a chance.

If a system is rigid and works exactly the same every time it's used, it's much easier for a bad actor to test it, adjust their strategy and fool it. If you introduce some randomness to it, it's much harder to bypass.

Anyways, it's probably not that smart to explain every little detail of how it works. And my knowledge of it is from 15-20 years ago anyway.

In an EVA Air flight three years ago, I left my 2,000mah bank in my checked luggage. Once seated in the plane, a ground crew came from the the back and alerted me that my luggage contained a power bank, and needed to be removed. I was presented with options, and ended up signing a waiver for them to open my luggage and remove the bank.

Another 15 minutes passed, I was told they couldn’t unlock the luggage thru the code I gave earlier, and was told that my luggage would be retrieved off the plane, and flown on the next flight.

Flew and landed to my destination. Waited almost six hours in the airport for the next flight with my luggage. It was locked, and everything inside looked as they were, except for the bank which was removed.

So for a full 77W flight, to be able to identify a diminutive battery inside a whole luggage, I would guess some airport systems such as TPE are more effective than others.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1744
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:36 am

longhauler wrote:
You are lucky you weren’t caught.

Where I fly, dangerous goods violations (even unintentional ones) are often met with fines approaching tens of thousands of dollars with added jail terms. Not to mention .... had a thermal run away occurred, you wouldn’t be talking about it right now. No passenger transport aircraft has the facility to fight such a fire in cargo holds.

The airlines are very aware how dangerous this can be and aren’t playing around any more. I imagine if you received a $10,000 fine and three months in jail as well as ending up on a Community No Fly list ..... you’d probably check twice next time. ;)


Well, that's not comforting. Thanks to the nickel-and-diming on checked baggage here in Canada - and the corresponding increase in cabin baggage, I can't even count the number of times AC staff have gate-checked carry on bags on full flights without asking anyone if power banks might be in them. I doubt WS or PD are any better.

Europe is even worse. Overzealous check in agents often insist on checking in bags for exceeding their questionable 8kg limits. Had that happen on LX once. After giving up on keeping my just under 9 kg bag with me, I walked away from the desk, but scrambled back when I realized my 12000 mAH battery wasn't in my laptop case, and was therefore in my checked in carry on. She didn't think it was an issue - perhaps evident in the fact that she never checked in the first place. Seems we've got a long way to go before common sense and training kicks in.
 
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longhauler
Posts: 6274
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:40 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Well, that's not comforting.


It's not comforting at all. That is the whole issue!

So far, the only large scale catastrophic loss of an aircraft due to Lithium Ion thermal runway has been on a cargo aircraft. I am sure most people that were even aware of the accident thought, "never happen on a passenger aircraft". They are also the same people that think rules don't really apply to them because they really really need to make that call, or really really need that battery pack at their destination. Their personal reasons being more important than anyone else's.

Sadly it's going to take the loss of a large passenger transport aircraft, with the cause pointed directly at dangerous goods carried by a passenger before people start to notice. "People" not just passengers. As you note, a lot of agents need education too.

In my opinion, that is the "weakest link". Pilots, Flight Attendants, Baggage Agents, Cargo Agents, etc. all receive elaborate Dangerous Goods training annually. It is very current. Lately, Li Ion batteries are mentioned a lot. Not just dectection, but also In-Cabin fire fighting. It is the agents ... checkin, gate, reservations ... that need to be reminded.

ElPistolero wrote:
Thanks to the nickel-and-diming on checked baggage here in Canada - and the corresponding increase in cabin baggage, I can't even count the number of times AC staff have gate-checked carry on bags on full flights without asking anyone if power banks might be in them. I doubt WS or PD are any better.


Only in Canada, you say?

It is a world wide problem and is being addressed world wide.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21479
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:38 pm

I have a question about this flight. If you look at the track on FlightAware (https://flightaware.com/live/flight/VIR ... /KJFK/KBOS), they began their descent just about over the CT/MA border and descended quickly, but then flew past BOS, did a loop, and then landed. Was this really the most expeditious way to get on the ground?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2036
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:45 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
I hope in a thorough investigation and heavy fines if rules haven't been followed. I can't imagine battery banks while there are plugs everywhere nowadays in biz and even economy for some a/c.


If you need a juice pack after you arrive... where will you have stored it en route? If you have it and your tablet/phone/thing is dead en route and you don't have a USB cable, but your juice pack does ...

Juice packs should have a mandatory RFID so the cabin can be scanned. Was the juice pack from a pax on the current flight ... or from a previous flight?
 
SoCalPilot
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:37 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:52 pm

DocLightning wrote:
I have a question about this flight. If you look at the track on FlightAware (https://flightaware.com/live/flight/VIR ... /KJFK/KBOS), they began their descent just about over the CT/MA border and descended quickly, but then flew past BOS, did a loop, and then landed. Was this really the most expeditious way to get on the ground?

I'm extremely curious as to how you think it could have been more expeditious?

They were 30 NM from the airport at 28,000' when they started their descent, flew past the airport for 27 NM, and circled back around to land to the SE. When abeam the airport, they were still at FL200. When they made the turn, they were still at 10,000'. They were doing over 3,500 FPM almost the entire way down. They went from being at FL280 to diverting to an airport they weren't prepared for in a span of about 20 minutes. How much more expeditious can you get?
 
tofur
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:42 am

ElPistolero wrote:
longhauler wrote:
You are lucky you weren’t caught.

Where I fly, dangerous goods violations (even unintentional ones) are often met with fines approaching tens of thousands of dollars with added jail terms. Not to mention .... had a thermal run away occurred, you wouldn’t be talking about it right now. No passenger transport aircraft has the facility to fight such a fire in cargo holds.

The airlines are very aware how dangerous this can be and aren’t playing around any more. I imagine if you received a $10,000 fine and three months in jail as well as ending up on a Community No Fly list ..... you’d probably check twice next time. ;)


Well, that's not comforting. Thanks to the nickel-and-diming on checked baggage here in Canada - and the corresponding increase in cabin baggage, I can't even count the number of times AC staff have gate-checked carry on bags on full flights without asking anyone if power banks might be in them. I doubt WS or PD are any better.

Europe is even worse. Overzealous check in agents often insist on checking in bags for exceeding their questionable 8kg limits. Had that happen on LX once. After giving up on keeping my just under 9 kg bag with me, I walked away from the desk, but scrambled back when I realized my 12000 mAH battery wasn't in my laptop case, and was therefore in my checked in carry on. She didn't think it was an issue - perhaps evident in the fact that she never checked in the first place. Seems we've got a long way to go before common sense and training kicks in.



ElPistolero, that is unfortunate to hear. I know that for cabin crew, we are required to ask if there is any travel documentation, medication or dangerous goods such as batteries in their bag before handing over to be checked in the hold. I have been privy to actual conversations between the ground staff and passengers as we hand over bags, and they asked the same questions which is comforting. The procedure has been in place for a long time. We know the hazards and want to ensure our own safety as well as those of our passengers.

As a matter of fact, it has been included as one of the touch points for the in charge cabin crew to address during the safety briefing prior to departure.

A couple of weeks ago on one my flights, a passenger lost his phone in one of the lie flat J suites. We told him not to move the seat and try and retrieve the phone. A safety announcement about this is included prior to departure. We had one J suite available to which he was moved. Upon landing in Los Angeles he got up from his new seat on taxi to try and move his original seat to get his phone. We diplomatically asked him to be seated and not to move that seat as the threat of fire still existed. He said, he thought that only applied in the air........

A mechanic met the aircraft and his phone was retrieved in less than 5 minutes after arrival at the gate. It really is that simple.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21479
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:44 am

SoCalPilot wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
They were 30 NM from the airport at 28,000' when they started their descent, flew past the airport for 27 NM, and circled back around to land to the SE. When abeam the airport, they were still at FL200. When they made the turn, they were still at 10,000'. They were doing over 3,500 FPM almost the entire way down. They went from being at FL280 to diverting to an airport they weren't prepared for in a span of about 20 minutes. How much more expeditious can you get?


That makes more sense. What is the maximum controlled descent rate for an A330?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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longhauler
Posts: 6274
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:01 pm

DocLightning wrote:
That makes more sense. What is the maximum controlled descent rate for an A330?


There are a lot of options and a lot of methods. It really depends on the purpose of the fast descent.

In a rapid depressurization, the thrust at idle, the speed brakes extended and flying MMO, you follow a constant Mach until you meet VMO and fly that constant VMO. During that stage from Cruise > MMO > VMO it is not uncommon to see descent rates approaching 5000-6000 fpm. Then flying the constant VMO to 10,000' things are a bit more "sedate" ... around 2500 - 3500 fpm. (In a rapid depressurization, the "urgency" stops at 10,000' and options/destinations/methods are reviewed.)

But ... if the reason for a rapid descent is not a depressurization, then the Captain has other options. if you are looking for distance, then sure, run the MMO/VMO profile. But if distance is not a factor you can slow to max gear extension speed, then when gear is extended then run it up to max gear extended speed, with speed brakes extended. Your descent rate is about the same as the MMO/VMO descent, but you are only going about half as far.

I did that a few years ago when I flew the 767. About 80 nm northwest of YQT we had an ill passenger and diverted to YQT. Using the "gear method" above we were stable on the ILS for 07 with no deviations and landed 14 minutes from cruise at FL370.

When the Chief Pilot was reviewing the FDA chip on "how the hell he did it", two things were noted. Namely not only was a very familiar with the 767, but also I was very familiar with YQT. (Years of flying in their in the 737).

The profile of this Virgin aircraft seemed reasonable to me. Don't forget, being a little slow and stable early is far better than having to do a go-around because you were not ready.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!

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