Tikchik
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Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:27 pm

How often do narrow body planes flying in Europe change the number of business seats offered for different routes?

Would the same A320 plane for BA LHR-FRA have more business seats than say LHR-AGP?

If the seats are fluid and demand high, couple/would an airline sell 50 business seats on a short haul?
 
rwsea
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:30 pm

Yes, they do vary quite a bit. It isn't unusual, for example, for a route like LHR-FRA to be 50% or more business class on a Monday morning flight. It also isn't unusual for beach / holiday destinations or other non-business markets to only have 1-2 rows of business (catering primarily to long-haul connection passengers).
 
musman9853
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:32 pm

they might have different configs for some more or less j, but having 50 J seats is super unlikely. BA's all J a318 from LCY-JFK only has 32 seats. you could probably fill an a321 with 50 J seats, but that'd be it. (iirc there's one airline that has just a single all J a320)
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VSMUT
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:38 pm

Tikchik wrote:
How often do narrow body planes flying in Europe change the number of business seats offered for different routes?


From one flight to the next. They can and will move the divider during a short 20 minute turnaround. I have seen it on Brussels Airlines and SAS very often, and from time to time on KLM.
 
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Finn350
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:40 pm

musman9853 wrote:
they might have different configs for some more or less j, but having 50 J seats is super unlikely. BA's all J a318 from LCY-JFK only has 32 seats. you could probably fill an a321 with 50 J seats, but that'd be it. (iirc there's one airline that has just a single all J a320)


Intra-Europe flights are mostly narrow bodies (A320, B737) with the business class separated by a curtain from the economy class. Middle seats are left empty in the business class so there are 2+2 business seats on every row. While 13 rows reserved for the business class is a bit high ratio, it is certainly not unheard of in an A321 for example.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:49 pm

Early this year I flew ZRH-LHR first flight on Monday morning with LX and there were about 8-10 rows of J (in and around). I remember thinking that this was the biggest J I ever saw on an LX flight.
 
directorguy
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:09 pm

Not in Europe, but I have seen it on Egyptair.

MS has a fleet of 12 E170s. The seats in Business are exactly the same as in Economy, all in a 2-2 configuration (not even the courtesy empty middle east you get on Eurobusiness). The only difference between Y and J is the service/catering on board, plus baggage allowance, priority boarding etc. I was recently on an Aswan-Cairo domestic flight, and 36 out of 72 seats were Business (9 out of 18 rows). It's a smart business move-sell a relatively small number of Economy tickets, then sell the rest as "Business." On other flights, usually only the first 3-4 rows are Business.
 
UA777EWRTLV
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:07 pm

Which European airlines offer a proper F/J class seat on Narrowbody short haul aircraft? Anyone other than Aeroflot?.
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:21 pm

I wonder if any of the European big 3 will ever try 3 class config on intra European routes. Especially BA which is operating from the largest premium market in the world.

8J on A319, 12J on A320 and 16J on A321. This would be followed by premium economy 3+3 with reclining seats, meals and drinks and a diveder. The rest would fill non reclining, BOB based economy basic product.
 
jghealey
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:24 pm

I fly BA and LX very often on european routes, eg on LHR-GVA I've seen 3 rows of business or 15 rows of business depending on the day. As others have said it varies entirely from one flight to the next
 
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FlyRow
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:26 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
I wonder if any of the European big 3 will ever try 3 class config on intra European routes. Especially BA which is operating from the largest premium market in the world.

8J on A319, 12J on A320 and 16J on A321. This would be followed by premium economy 3+3 with reclining seats, meals and drinks and a diveder. The rest would fill non reclining, BOB based economy basic product.


They won't.

The EU market is used to LCC style service, and routes are very much a shorter affair then intra-US for example.
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readytotaxi
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:42 pm

UA777EWRTLV wrote:
Which European airlines offer a proper F/J class seat on Narrowbody short haul aircraft? Anyone other than Aeroflot?.

Well BA does on some routes, but perhaps you might be better avoiding it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSMz3p6jJrY
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bergkampsticket
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:45 pm

UA777EWRTLV wrote:
Which European airlines offer a proper F/J class seat on Narrowbody short haul aircraft? Anyone other than Aeroflot?.

TK I believe.
 
musman9853
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:55 pm

Finn350 wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
they might have different configs for some more or less j, but having 50 J seats is super unlikely. BA's all J a318 from LCY-JFK only has 32 seats. you could probably fill an a321 with 50 J seats, but that'd be it. (iirc there's one airline that has just a single all J a320)


Intra-Europe flights are mostly narrow bodies (A320, B737) with the business class separated by a curtain from the economy class. Middle seats are left empty in the business class so there are 2+2 business seats on every row. While 13 rows reserved for the business class is a bit high ratio, it is certainly not unheard of in an A321 for example.



ah true. i'm so used to flying true domestic business in us airlines that i completely forgot about stuff like club europe
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S0Y
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:56 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
I wonder if any of the European big 3 will ever try 3 class config on intra European routes. Especially BA which is operating from the largest premium market in the world.

8J on A319, 12J on A320 and 16J on A321. This would be followed by premium economy 3+3 with reclining seats, meals and drinks and a diveder. The rest would fill non reclining, BOB based economy basic product.


No chance - BA fairly recently got rid of extra leg room in shorthaul J, now everyone gets 30inch which is LCC territory
 
VSMUT
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:09 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Early this year I flew ZRH-LHR first flight on Monday morning with LX and there were about 8-10 rows of J (in and around). I remember thinking that this was the biggest J I ever saw on an LX flight.


I've been on some Lufthansa flights where business filled more than half the cabin. Mostly E-jets, but also a few on the A32X. Most notable was one where it extended just past the trailing edge of the wing.


Finn350 wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
they might have different configs for some more or less j, but having 50 J seats is super unlikely. BA's all J a318 from LCY-JFK only has 32 seats. you could probably fill an a321 with 50 J seats, but that'd be it. (iirc there's one airline that has just a single all J a320)


Intra-Europe flights are mostly narrow bodies (A320, B737) with the business class separated by a curtain from the economy class. Middle seats are left empty in the business class so there are 2+2 business seats on every row. While 13 rows reserved for the business class is a bit high ratio, it is certainly not unheard of in an A321 for example.


Some airlines don't even provide an empty the middle seat. SAS doesn't.

On smaller aircraft with 2+2 seating (E-jet, CRJ) it also varies. Air France and KLM fill both seats whereas Lufthansa blocks one.
 
DLPMMM
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:40 pm

UA777EWRTLV wrote:
Which European airlines offer a proper F/J class seat on Narrowbody short haul aircraft? Anyone other than Aeroflot?.


TK Does, as did AZ in the past.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:50 pm

Thought, BA also use a B777 on some LHR-MAD flights so chance of a Club World seat there then.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:57 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
UA777EWRTLV wrote:
Which European airlines offer a proper F/J class seat on Narrowbody short haul aircraft? Anyone other than Aeroflot?.

Well BA does on some routes, but perhaps you might be better avoiding it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSMz3p6jJrY


Well...all 4 of those mid-haul ex-BMI A321, that is.

Those planes usually fly only to SVO (235/234), DME (237/236), AMM (147/146), TLV (163/162), and BEY (149/148) anyway. They do subs those planes on routes like LHR-CDG/BRU/MUC/FRA once every so often, but only very rarely.

DLPMMM wrote:
TK Does, as did AZ in the past.


For awhile JU (Air Serbia) also have dedicated J IIRC. Another one of those Etihad experiment that failed badly.
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S0Y
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:38 am

EI will soon have proper biz seating on select flights to DUB. They will use their new A321LR's for early morning turns to markets such as LHR/AMS/CDG in a bid to capture more connecting Biz customers to North America
 
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shamrock350
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:09 am

When Aer Lingus had a short haul business product, Premier Europe as it was marketed, they often had to extend the curtain to well behind L2/R2 on the A321 for LHR morning services. It was relatively easy to revert the cabin back to the standard business/economy layout.

S0Y wrote:
EI will soon have proper biz seating on select flights to DUB. They will use their new A321LR's for early morning turns to markets such as LHR/AMS/CDG in a bid to capture more connecting Biz customers to North America


It was also recently added to the morning SNN-LHR rotation.

Shamrock350
 
rbavfan
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:47 am

musman9853 wrote:
they might have different configs for some more or less j, but having 50 J seats is super unlikely. BA's all J a318 from LCY-JFK only has 32 seats. you could probably fill an a321 with 50 J seats, but that'd be it. (iirc there's one airline that has just a single all J a320)


He is talking about intra UE business seats not TATL style. Both Business & coach are the same in alot of EU markets. As they dont sell the center seat on 737 style or on A220's don't sell one of the 2 pair seats they cab have as many or as few needed per flight. Very little difference in cabin service other than an open seat next to you.
 
filLPA
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:20 am

Tikchik wrote:
How often do narrow body planes flying in Europe change the number of business seats offered for different routes?

Would the same A320 plane for BA LHR-FRA have more business seats than say LHR-AGP?

If the seats are fluid and demand high, couple/would an airline sell 50 business seats on a short haul?


For example Iberia uses A321 for MAD-BCN and MAD-LHR and most of the times half of the plane is C Class. And The same plane on the MAD-LIS sector will only have two rows of C Class.
 
george77300
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:36 am

Tikchik wrote:
How often do narrow body planes flying in Europe change the number of business seats offered for different routes?

Would the same A320 plane for BA LHR-FRA have more business seats than say LHR-AGP?

If the seats are fluid and demand high, couple/would an airline sell 50 business seats on a short haul?


musman9853 wrote:
they might have different configs for some more or less j, but having 50 J seats is super unlikely. BA's all J a318 from LCY-JFK only has 32 seats. you could probably fill an a321 with 50 J seats, but that'd be it. (iirc there's one airline that has just a single all J a320)


BA maximum is 12 rows of J on A320 and 14 on A321. That’s 48 and 56 business class respectively. Leading to a 48J96Y and 56J138Y approximately. This is quite common on some premium routes at certain times of day such as GVA, ZRH, FRA, LCA, IST, MAD among others.

To answer the second point. The number of business rows is changed every flight pretty much. It is simply moving a divider and changing the headrest cover and folding up middle seat tables. Takes seconds.
 
bx737
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:49 am

shamrock350 wrote:
When Aer Lingus had a short haul business product, Premier Europe as it was marketed, they often had to extend the curtain to well behind L2/R2 on the A321 for LHR morning services. It was relatively easy to revert the cabin back to the standard business/economy layout.

S0Y wrote:
EI will soon have proper biz seating on select flights to DUB. They will use their new A321LR's for early morning turns to markets such as LHR/AMS/CDG in a bid to capture more connecting Biz customers to North America


It was also recently added to the morning SNN-LHR rotation.

Shamrock350


Aer Lingus used to have VGS seating (Variable Geometry Seating) on their 737s in the late 1990s. The aircraft had curtains which could be moved throughout the cabin and the normal 6 abreast seating could be changed. One side of the aisle the seats were narrowed to 2 and the other side the three seats were widened giving extra width on all the seats. The aisle was offset and the cabin was five abreast. They had them for a few years on their A320/321 as well, before the higher density seating was introduced. It was not unheard of to have up to 100 Premier passengers on an A321.
 
kimimm19
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:01 am

FlyRow wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
I wonder if any of the European big 3 will ever try 3 class config on intra European routes. Especially BA which is operating from the largest premium market in the world.

8J on A319, 12J on A320 and 16J on A321. This would be followed by premium economy 3+3 with reclining seats, meals and drinks and a diveder. The rest would fill non reclining, BOB based economy basic product.


They won't.

The EU market is used to LCC style service, and routes are very much a shorter affair then intra-US for example.


The LCC is more the UK/US style service.

Many Euro airlines like LX, LH, KLM, etc provide actual snacks (sandwich, cakes, croissants, pain au chocolat) in economy free of charge and have been for years.
 
mchei
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:10 am

The best I’ve seen was on Air France. An A318 from CDG to GVA.
I think there’s two people in Y that didn’t have pre-boarding so actually being in Y felt more precious than being a Business Class passenger :)
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trent768
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:10 pm

So if the C and Y have exactly the same seat, then what is the selling point/advantage of paying much more money to fly in Euro-style C? Is it justified by the extra miles/better catering/lounge access?

I'm genuinely asking and didn't mean to troll/start a war. Please explain it like I'm 5 :D
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:17 pm

See post #7 for the selling proposition. To the extent you can get people to pay for priority boarding & baggage allowance (and have little competition offering a materially better product), it's great - no 'extra' seats that are just given away, as was the long-standing U.S. frequent flyer model - upgrades for elites.
 
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OA940
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:30 pm

UA777EWRTLV wrote:
Which European airlines offer a proper F/J class seat on Narrowbody short haul aircraft? Anyone other than Aeroflot?.


Belavia's E-Jets have a proper 1-2 Business Class. Not sure it counts but TK has a proper J cabin as well. I remember OA used to also have a 2-2 Business Class on select A320s when they flew those but they're long gone. Also Stobart operates an ex-Virgin Australia E190 that still has their cabin, but obviously that's a one-off exception and you can't know where it'll be flying to when booking.
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Andy33
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
See post #7 for the selling proposition. To the extent you can get people to pay for priority boarding & baggage allowance (and have little competition offering a materially better product), it's great - no 'extra' seats that are just given away, as was the long-standing U.S. frequent flyer model - upgrades for elites.

You can also add increased FF miles/points earning capability, plus fast-track security with some airlines at some airports as passenger benefits. Don't underestimate the difference in cabin service either, with much better crew-passenger ratios enabling attentive and proactive service rather than one or at best two passes through the cabin with a trolley/cart. However as with many airlines, just how attentive and proactive the service is depends on the individuals on duty.
 
kimimm19
Posts: 390
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:58 pm

OA940 wrote:
UA777EWRTLV wrote:
Which European airlines offer a proper F/J class seat on Narrowbody short haul aircraft? Anyone other than Aeroflot?.


Belavia's E-Jets have a proper 1-2 Business Class. Not sure it counts but TK has a proper J cabin as well. I remember OA used to also have a 2-2 Business Class on select A320s when they flew those but they're long gone. Also Stobart operates an ex-Virgin Australia E190 that still has their cabin, but obviously that's a one-off exception and you can't know where it'll be flying to when booking.


I think TK has the distinct advantage of their business plan meaning that they offer the regular long haul business class seats because they so often use widebodies within Europe.
 
george77300
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:02 pm

trent768 wrote:
So if the C and Y have exactly the same seat, then what is the selling point/advantage of paying much more money to fly in Euro-style C? Is it justified by the extra miles/better catering/lounge access?

I'm genuinely asking and didn't mean to troll/start a war. Please explain it like I'm 5 :D


Lounge access for all flights in the main international lounges. (Even for 40 minute domestic £80 fares) eg LHR-MAN on BA is the same lounge as a LAX bound business pax.
Catering is great. (On BA I get champagne and a full cooked breakfast on a 30 minute domestic/ intra-EU flight) The longer flights get “three course” meals. (About 2.5hrs on BA)
You will get more miles and status points depending on alliance to earn Frequent flier status quicker.
Fast track Security.
Then all the same stuff as in USA, extra baggage allowance, premium check in desks, priority boarding.

The seats are usually the same as economy, sometime more legroom and have a blocked middle seat. On the A320/737 it’ll be sold as 2-2 with middle seats blocked. On BA for example have a fold up table for the middle seat.
 
Transpac787
Posts: 1395
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:25 pm

Do any Euro carriers offer extended legroom for the narrowbody Biz seats, or are they all uniform seat pitch throughout the cabin now??
 
Flanker7
Posts: 358
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Re: Euro Business Seats

Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:47 pm

Transpac787 wrote:
Do any Euro carriers offer extended legroom for the narrowbody Biz seats, or are they all uniform seat pitch throughout the cabin now??


I can only speak for KLM as they are my preferred airline flying business,the first 8 or so rows have more legroom then the rest of the cabin.
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