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MIflyer12 wrote:It'll be news here when announced. There's a lot of Transborder traffic into some U.S. metros where WN is big but there's also lot of competition for Canada-origin passengers. (It won't be long before somebody mentions high Canada airport fees. Somehow high CPE doesn't stop people from flying into EWR, JFK, SFO and LGA... ) viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426381
WaywardMemphian wrote:With what jets, plus there is other US markets to grow.
b777900 wrote:WaywardMemphian wrote:With what jets, plus there is other US markets to grow.
What markets WN has A lot already WN is almost every state...
b777900 wrote:Any update on WN to Toronto?...
OKCDCA wrote:I thought WN had been pretty clear that the costs of operating into Canadian airports did not fit WN’s cost structure. Until those costs are lowered by the Canadian government WN has no plans of entering the Canadian market.
wnflyguy wrote:b777900 wrote:Any update on WN to Toronto?...
BUF.
Flyguy
b777900 wrote:WaywardMemphian wrote:With what jets, plus there is other US markets to grow.
What markets WN has A lot already WN is almost every state...
wnflyguy wrote:b777900 wrote:Any update on WN to Toronto?...
BUF.
WaywardMemphian wrote:With what jets, plus there is other US markets to grow.
Aliqiout wrote:OKCDCA wrote:I thought WN had been pretty clear that the costs of operating into Canadian airports did not fit WN’s cost structure. Until those costs are lowered by the Canadian government WN has no plans of entering the Canadian market.
This is an old excuse, but doesn't hold much water. If you look at your receipt for a trans border flight more of the government taxes and fees are on the U.S. side. The landing fees may be higher in Canada (just going on hearsay), but they are paid by every airline using the airport, so WN would not be at any advantage. WN has moved substantially away from the low fare airline it once was and has shown the ability to compete at high cost airports (EWR).
The real reason are that WN has not invested in IT that accept foreign currancy and they do not make their fares available for sale or search by third parties. Transborder flights are dominated by the Canadian point if sale. Forcing Canadians to search the WN website and pay foreign transaction fees is not a good way to compete.
All that being said, I think they could compete on some routes.
Bobloblaw wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:It'll be news here when announced. There's a lot of Transborder traffic into some U.S. metros where WN is big but there's also lot of competition for Canada-origin passengers. (It won't be long before somebody mentions high Canada airport fees. Somehow high CPE doesn't stop people from flying into EWR, JFK, SFO and LGA... ) viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426381
Because there is a lot of revenue for WN in those US markets and if WN wants to be a carrier that attracts business traffic, they have to go to those airports.
High costs, competition from established canadian carriers like WS, Rouge and Air Transat. 70% or more Canadian point of sale. The taxes negate WN and other US LCCs fare advantage. No access to travel agents in Canada. If you think canadians will head over to Southwest.com, think again. There is a reason why aside from frontier no US lcc/ulcc has tried Canada.
twicearound wrote:Bobloblaw wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:It'll be news here when announced. There's a lot of Transborder traffic into some U.S. metros where WN is big but there's also lot of competition for Canada-origin passengers. (It won't be long before somebody mentions high Canada airport fees. Somehow high CPE doesn't stop people from flying into EWR, JFK, SFO and LGA... ) viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426381
Because there is a lot of revenue for WN in those US markets and if WN wants to be a carrier that attracts business traffic, they have to go to those airports.
High costs, competition from established canadian carriers like WS, Rouge and Air Transat. 70% or more Canadian point of sale. The taxes negate WN and other US LCCs fare advantage. No access to travel agents in Canada. If you think canadians will head over to Southwest.com, think again. There is a reason why aside from frontier no US lcc/ulcc has tried Canada.
Not entirely true. America West had a robust Canadian network. YVR, YYZ, YYC, YEG.
And I believe even Virgin America dabbled in the Canadian market with a short lived YYZ.
rbavfan wrote:Aliqiout wrote:OKCDCA wrote:I thought WN had been pretty clear that the costs of operating into Canadian airports did not fit WN’s cost structure. Until those costs are lowered by the Canadian government WN has no plans of entering the Canadian market.
This is an old excuse, but doesn't hold much water. If you look at your receipt for a trans border flight more of the government taxes and fees are on the U.S. side. The landing fees may be higher in Canada (just going on hearsay), but they are paid by every airline using the airport, so WN would not be at any advantage. WN has moved substantially away from the low fare airline it once was and has shown the ability to compete at high cost airports (EWR).
The real reason are that WN has not invested in IT that accept foreign currancy and they do not make their fares available for sale or search by third parties. Transborder flights are dominated by the Canadian point if sale. Forcing Canadians to search the WN website and pay foreign transaction fees is not a good way to compete.
All that being said, I think they could compete on some routes.
Southwest has already updated to a new system for more than a year now, started international service and that is no longer an excuse.
twicearound wrote:Bobloblaw wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:It'll be news here when announced. There's a lot of Transborder traffic into some U.S. metros where WN is big but there's also lot of competition for Canada-origin passengers. (It won't be long before somebody mentions high Canada airport fees. Somehow high CPE doesn't stop people from flying into EWR, JFK, SFO and LGA... ) viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426381
Because there is a lot of revenue for WN in those US markets and if WN wants to be a carrier that attracts business traffic, they have to go to those airports.
High costs, competition from established canadian carriers like WS, Rouge and Air Transat. 70% or more Canadian point of sale. The taxes negate WN and other US LCCs fare advantage. No access to travel agents in Canada. If you think canadians will head over to Southwest.com, think again. There is a reason why aside from frontier no US lcc/ulcc has tried Canada.
Not entirely true. America West had a robust Canadian network. YVR, YYZ, YYC, YEG.
And I believe even Virgin America dabbled in the Canadian market with a short lived YYZ.
Cubsrule wrote:twicearound wrote:Bobloblaw wrote:Because there is a lot of revenue for WN in those US markets and if WN wants to be a carrier that attracts business traffic, they have to go to those airports.
High costs, competition from established canadian carriers like WS, Rouge and Air Transat. 70% or more Canadian point of sale. The taxes negate WN and other US LCCs fare advantage. No access to travel agents in Canada. If you think canadians will head over to Southwest.com, think again. There is a reason why aside from frontier no US lcc/ulcc has tried Canada.
Not entirely true. America West had a robust Canadian network. YVR, YYZ, YYC, YEG.
And I believe even Virgin America dabbled in the Canadian market with a short lived YYZ.
Yes, and WS didn’t exist and TS didn’t really overlap. But if you stroll throughout Terminal 3 at LAS in the early evening in the winter, you’ll pretty quickly figure out that the Canadian carriers have filled in that niche.
longhauler wrote:wnflyguy wrote:b777900 wrote:Any update on WN to Toronto?...
BUF.
Except for very rare exceptions, it is unlikely someone from Toronto would drive to Buffalo to fly to the United States. (The reasons why have been hashed about this site for a decade so I won't repeat them all).
stl07 wrote:longhauler wrote:wnflyguy wrote:
BUF.
Except for very rare exceptions, it is unlikely someone from Toronto would drive to Buffalo to fly to the United States. (The reasons why have been hashed about this site for a decade so I won't repeat them all).
This is from Wiki, so take it how you will, but 1 out of every 3 passengers are Canadian at Buffalo airport, most or at least a good portion of which are from Toronto
longhauler wrote:wnflyguy wrote:b777900 wrote:Any update on WN to Toronto?...
BUF.
Except for very rare exceptions, it is unlikely someone from Toronto would drive to Buffalo to fly to the United States. (The reasons why have been hashed about this site for a decade so I won't repeat them all).
Oddly enough, people here seem to forget what made Southwest what it is today. That is the whole "point to point" concept, overflying tedious hubs, taking you from A to B with a nonstop or direct flight. Most of the people I have talked with that flew out of BUF, that was the reason. It wasn't a cheap flight to LAX or LGA ... it was a direct flight from BUF to somewhere obscure.
To me, that is the future of Southwest in Canada. But as Air Canada saturates the US market out of YYZ, that edge becomes less and less. I think the last time I counted, AC flew to around 50 cities in the US, nonstop from YYZ! In my opinion then, the whole BUF/YYZ debate is moot. So where does that leave Southwest ...
Look at the rest of Canada. There must be some population centres that so far have been ignored by AC. YWG or YEG come to mind. Low cost airports, lots of room. Maybe less so, but YYC, YVR also are lacking in some US service. Hell, even YXE or YQT come to mind. All of this, Southwest does better than anyone. Moderate sized, ignored markets to places people want to go.
(You'll notice I have not mentioned Quebec. The province, not the city. That is not an oversight. I honestly don't think they'd do well in the Quebec market ... from Quebec.)
Southwest offers a solid product at a reasonable price. I have flown them many times where I walked away thinking ... Yeah, good flight, I'd fly them again! They also have something a lot of upstarts do not. That is a good reputation in Canada. Where most Canadians have never heard of say Allegiant or Spirit ... everyone knows Southwest!
Aliqiout wrote:in fact their web site actually blocks access from many countries (not Canada).
longhauler wrote:Look at the rest of Canada. There must be some population centres that so far have been ignored by AC. YWG or YEG come to mind. Low cost airports, lots of room. Maybe less so, but YYC, YVR also are lacking in some US service. Hell, even YXE or YQT come to mind. All of this, Southwest does better than anyone. Moderate sized, ignored markets to places people want to go.
ScottB wrote:Aliqiout wrote:in fact their web site actually blocks access from many countries (not Canada).
This is because of higher potential for credit card fraud on purchases from those countries, not because they don't want the business.
ScottB wrote:Aliqiout wrote:in fact their web site actually blocks access from many countries (not Canada).
This is because of higher potential for credit card fraud on purchases from those countries, not because they don't want the business.longhauler wrote:Look at the rest of Canada. There must be some population centres that so far have been ignored by AC. YWG or YEG come to mind. Low cost airports, lots of room. Maybe less so, but YYC, YVR also are lacking in some US service. Hell, even YXE or YQT come to mind. All of this, Southwest does better than anyone. Moderate sized, ignored markets to places people want to go.
In Canada, there are about 15 metro areas which are larger than Corpus Christi, which is one of the smallest markets still in WN's network. (Amarillo and Midland-Odessa are a bit smaller but also punch above their weight due to geographic isolation and oil business revenue.) And obviously WN cannot tap into the largest traffic flow in Canadian markets which is domestic traffic. As of 2015, there were 7 Canadian airports which generated more transborder traffic than CRP's total (i.e. addressable market for WN) -- YYZ, YUL, YVR, YYC, YEG, YOW, and YWG. And that also ignores, as others have pointed out, the overwhelmingly Canada-based point-of-sale which gives AC and WS an enormous home-field advantage.
Also, markets like YYZ, YUL, and YOW tend to have some of their strongest traffic flows to the Eastern U.S. where WN is historically weak. NYC is one of the largest transborder markets (if not the largest) from YYZ but WN wouldn't waste its LGA slots on LGA-YYZ when they have plenty of domestic markets which benefit from service to LGA. If they were to ever enter Canada, I'd expect service to YYC or YVR first, with service from markets where WN is a leading carrier and enjoys strong point-of-sale. But I think it's unlikely for all the reasons others have pointed out.
ScottB wrote:In Canada, there are about 15 metro areas which are larger than Corpus Christi, which is one of the smallest markets still in WN's network. (Amarillo and Midland-Odessa are a bit smaller but also punch above their weight due to geographic isolation and oil business revenue.) And obviously WN cannot tap into the largest traffic flow in Canadian markets which is domestic traffic. As of 2015, there were 7 Canadian airports which generated more transborder traffic than CRP's total (i.e. addressable market for WN) -- YYZ, YUL, YVR, YYC, YEG, YOW, and YWG. And that also ignores, as others have pointed out, the overwhelmingly Canada-based point-of-sale which gives AC and WS an enormous home-field advantage.
Dominion301 wrote:While WN are weak in NYC, BOS and DCA, they are dominant at BWI. Most of the following make sense in the east 1-4x daily:
UWPAviation wrote:
Its not happening anytime soon. There is alot of US destinations first, central and s. America then maybe Canada. Heck id expect ANC before Canada. Plus if you look at MDW, their biggest hub, you can fly porter for $130. And thats to Billy Bishop. Porter has been at it at MDW for a long time and has been doing fantastic.
I just dont see the need for Canada. If anything just codeshare with Westjet, I know it wont happen.
ILS28ORD wrote:I’d bet WN would do well enough on YYZ-MDW, YYZ-BWI and YYZ-LAS. I know several people from Toronto who have driven to BUF to catch WN flights. All they need to do is connect Toronto to their top hubs and I’d think they could draw Canadian traffic. Many Canadians fly to Florida and the southwest US for winter, if the price is right, I’m sure a connection in Baltimore or Chicago wouldn’t be an issue.
acavpics wrote:That is true. WN is definitely very widespread. But, it lacks sufficient frequency on many of its routes. For example, BOS-ATL is only 1 daily (Even during summer) while B6 and DL have several flights a day throughout the year. If you look at it that way, then there is still plenty of room for WN to grow domestically.
UWPAviation wrote:Its not happening anytime soon. There is alot of US destinations first, central and s. America then maybe Canada. Heck id expect ANC before Canada. Plus if you look at MDW, their biggest hub, you can fly porter for $130. And thats to Billy Bishop. Porter has been at it at MDW for a long time and has been doing fantastic.
I just dont see the need for Canada. If anything just codeshare with Westjet, I know it wont happen.
Aliqiout wrote:OKCDCA wrote:I thought WN had been pretty clear that the costs of operating into Canadian airports did not fit WN’s cost structure. Until those costs are lowered by the Canadian government WN has no plans of entering the Canadian market.
This is an old excuse, but doesn't hold much water. If you look at your receipt for a trans border flight more of the government taxes and fees are on the U.S. side. The landing fees may be higher in Canada (just going on hearsay), but they are paid by every airline using the airport, so WN would not be at any advantage. WN has moved substantially away from the low fare airline it once was and has shown the ability to compete at high cost airports (EWR).
The real reason are that WN has not invested in IT that accept foreign currancy and they do not make their fares available for sale or search by third parties. Transborder flights are dominated by the Canadian point if sale. Forcing Canadians to search the WN website and pay foreign transaction fees is not a good way to compete.
All that being said, I think they could compete on some routes.
jimbo737 wrote:Wasn't that ATL - YUL?
usdcaguy wrote:acavpics wrote:That is true. WN is definitely very widespread. But, it lacks sufficient frequency on many of its routes. For example, BOS-ATL is only 1 daily (Even during summer) while B6 and DL have several flights a day throughout the year. If you look at it that way, then there is still plenty of room for WN to grow domestically.
The reason why WN has not expanded much from ATL is partly gate space. They have a limited number of gates to use, so each market needs to be lucrative. Markets like BOS-ATL are very competitive with B6 in the picture, so they are likely to shift resources elsewhere, like Texas or other points in the South that have less competition and thus command more of a price premium.
b777900 wrote:Soutwest wants to expand more but not domestically.
b777900 wrote:usdcaguy wrote:acavpics wrote:That is true. WN is definitely very widespread. But, it lacks sufficient frequency on many of its routes. For example, BOS-ATL is only 1 daily (Even during summer) while B6 and DL have several flights a day throughout the year. If you look at it that way, then there is still plenty of room for WN to grow domestically.
The reason why WN has not expanded much from ATL is partly gate space. They have a limited number of gates to use, so each market needs to be lucrative. Markets like BOS-ATL are very competitive with B6 in the picture, so they are likely to shift resources elsewhere, like Texas or other points in the South that have less competition and thus command more of a price premium.
Soutwest wants to expand more but not domestically.