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b777900
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ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:48 am

Any update on WN to Toronto?...
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WaywardMemphian
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:07 pm

With what jets, plus there is other US markets to grow.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:10 pm

It'll be news here when announced. There's a lot of Transborder traffic into some U.S. metros where WN is big but there's also lot of competition for Canada-origin passengers. (It won't be long before somebody mentions high Canada airport fees. Somehow high CPE doesn't stop people from flying into EWR, JFK, SFO and LGA... ) viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426381
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:28 pm

What “update”? Southwest hasn’t said they were going to serve Canada like they said they were going to serve Hawaii.

Anyways with so many MAXs grounded, theee won’t be any new markets for awhile.
Last edited by Bobloblaw on Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:34 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
It'll be news here when announced. There's a lot of Transborder traffic into some U.S. metros where WN is big but there's also lot of competition for Canada-origin passengers. (It won't be long before somebody mentions high Canada airport fees. Somehow high CPE doesn't stop people from flying into EWR, JFK, SFO and LGA... ) viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426381

Because there is a lot of revenue for WN in those US markets and if WN wants to be a carrier that attracts business traffic, they have to go to those airports.


High costs, competition from established canadian carriers like WS, Rouge and Air Transat. 70% or more Canadian point of sale. The taxes negate WN and other US LCCs fare advantage. No access to travel agents in Canada. If you think canadians will head over to Southwest.com, think again. There is a reason why aside from frontier no US lcc/ulcc has tried Canada.
 
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b777900
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:44 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
With what jets, plus there is other US markets to grow.

What markets WN has A lot already WN is almost every state...
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acavpics
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:26 pm

b777900 wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
With what jets, plus there is other US markets to grow.

What markets WN has A lot already WN is almost every state...


That is true. WN is definitely very widespread. But, it lacks sufficient frequency on many of its routes. For example, BOS-ATL is only 1 daily (Even during summer) while B6 and DL have several flights a day throughout the year. If you look at it that way, then there is still plenty of room for WN to grow domestically.
 
Jshank83
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:59 pm

Maybe a silly question but can WNs system handle CAD? I know they haven’t had the most flexible system in the past.
 
OKCDCA
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:16 pm

I thought WN had been pretty clear that the costs of operating into Canadian airports did not fit WN’s cost structure. Until those costs are lowered by the Canadian government WN has no plans of entering the Canadian market.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:32 pm

b777900 wrote:
Any update on WN to Toronto?...


BUF.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:51 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
I thought WN had been pretty clear that the costs of operating into Canadian airports did not fit WN’s cost structure. Until those costs are lowered by the Canadian government WN has no plans of entering the Canadian market.

This is an old excuse, but doesn't hold much water. If you look at your receipt for a trans border flight more of the government taxes and fees are on the U.S. side. The landing fees may be higher in Canada (just going on hearsay), but they are paid by every airline using the airport, so WN would not be at any advantage. WN has moved substantially away from the low fare airline it once was and has shown the ability to compete at high cost airports (EWR).

The real reason are that WN has not invested in IT that accept foreign currancy and they do not make their fares available for sale or search by third parties. Transborder flights are dominated by the Canadian point if sale. Forcing Canadians to search the WN website and pay foreign transaction fees is not a good way to compete.

All that being said, I think they could compete on some routes.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:02 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
b777900 wrote:
Any update on WN to Toronto?...


BUF.

Flyguy

Sure, they get transborder traffic through BUF, but WN isn't really chasing the ultra price conscience Toronto passengers who are willing to drive from Toronto and across the border. See how ISP has stagnanated at the expense of LGA and EWR.
 
rbavfan
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:35 pm

b777900 wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
With what jets, plus there is other US markets to grow.

What markets WN has A lot already WN is almost every state...


There are still many markets WN does not serve yet. Even their CEO has noted this in interviews
 
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longhauler
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:17 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
b777900 wrote:
Any update on WN to Toronto?...


BUF.

Except for very rare exceptions, it is unlikely someone from Toronto would drive to Buffalo to fly to the United States. (The reasons why have been hashed about this site for a decade so I won't repeat them all).

Oddly enough, people here seem to forget what made Southwest what it is today. That is the whole "point to point" concept, overflying tedious hubs, taking you from A to B with a nonstop or direct flight. Most of the people I have talked with that flew out of BUF, that was the reason. It wasn't a cheap flight to LAX or LGA ... it was a direct flight from BUF to somewhere obscure.

To me, that is the future of Southwest in Canada. But as Air Canada saturates the US market out of YYZ, that edge becomes less and less. I think the last time I counted, AC flew to around 50 cities in the US, nonstop from YYZ! In my opinion then, the whole BUF/YYZ debate is moot. So where does that leave Southwest ...

Look at the rest of Canada. There must be some population centres that so far have been ignored by AC. YWG or YEG come to mind. Low cost airports, lots of room. Maybe less so, but YYC, YVR also are lacking in some US service. Hell, even YXE or YQT come to mind. All of this, Southwest does better than anyone. Moderate sized, ignored markets to places people want to go.

(You'll notice I have not mentioned Quebec. The province, not the city. That is not an oversight. I honestly don't think they'd do well in the Quebec market ... from Quebec.)

Southwest offers a solid product at a reasonable price. I have flown them many times where I walked away thinking ... Yeah, good flight, I'd fly them again! They also have something a lot of upstarts do not. That is a good reputation in Canada. Where most Canadians have never heard of say Allegiant or Spirit ... everyone knows Southwest!
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x1234
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:18 pm

WN is now on Amadeus Altea which can easily accept foreign currency but the rest of their IT systems can't. They seriously need to accept foreign currency and they will be successful in markets that aren't dominated by American Point of Sale. If Spirit can do it successfully in multiple Latin American markets I don't see why WN can't.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:28 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
With what jets, plus there is other US markets to grow.


There are other U.S. markets to grow, but four Canadian airports are among the top 16 international destinations from the U.S. Are you suggesting every available U.S. route pair is better than any U.S.-Canada route pair? If you are, and you're in WN route planning, it's time to short the stock.
 
rbavfan
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:31 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
OKCDCA wrote:
I thought WN had been pretty clear that the costs of operating into Canadian airports did not fit WN’s cost structure. Until those costs are lowered by the Canadian government WN has no plans of entering the Canadian market.

This is an old excuse, but doesn't hold much water. If you look at your receipt for a trans border flight more of the government taxes and fees are on the U.S. side. The landing fees may be higher in Canada (just going on hearsay), but they are paid by every airline using the airport, so WN would not be at any advantage. WN has moved substantially away from the low fare airline it once was and has shown the ability to compete at high cost airports (EWR).

The real reason are that WN has not invested in IT that accept foreign currancy and they do not make their fares available for sale or search by third parties. Transborder flights are dominated by the Canadian point if sale. Forcing Canadians to search the WN website and pay foreign transaction fees is not a good way to compete.

All that being said, I think they could compete on some routes.


Southwest has already updated to a new system for more than a year now, started international service and that is no longer an excuse.
 
twicearound
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:35 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
It'll be news here when announced. There's a lot of Transborder traffic into some U.S. metros where WN is big but there's also lot of competition for Canada-origin passengers. (It won't be long before somebody mentions high Canada airport fees. Somehow high CPE doesn't stop people from flying into EWR, JFK, SFO and LGA... ) viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426381

Because there is a lot of revenue for WN in those US markets and if WN wants to be a carrier that attracts business traffic, they have to go to those airports.


High costs, competition from established canadian carriers like WS, Rouge and Air Transat. 70% or more Canadian point of sale. The taxes negate WN and other US LCCs fare advantage. No access to travel agents in Canada. If you think canadians will head over to Southwest.com, think again. There is a reason why aside from frontier no US lcc/ulcc has tried Canada.


Not entirely true. America West had a robust Canadian network. YVR, YYZ, YYC, YEG.
And I believe even Virgin America dabbled in the Canadian market with a short lived YYZ.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:44 pm

twicearound wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
It'll be news here when announced. There's a lot of Transborder traffic into some U.S. metros where WN is big but there's also lot of competition for Canada-origin passengers. (It won't be long before somebody mentions high Canada airport fees. Somehow high CPE doesn't stop people from flying into EWR, JFK, SFO and LGA... ) viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426381

Because there is a lot of revenue for WN in those US markets and if WN wants to be a carrier that attracts business traffic, they have to go to those airports.


High costs, competition from established canadian carriers like WS, Rouge and Air Transat. 70% or more Canadian point of sale. The taxes negate WN and other US LCCs fare advantage. No access to travel agents in Canada. If you think canadians will head over to Southwest.com, think again. There is a reason why aside from frontier no US lcc/ulcc has tried Canada.


Not entirely true. America West had a robust Canadian network. YVR, YYZ, YYC, YEG.
And I believe even Virgin America dabbled in the Canadian market with a short lived YYZ.

HP also had GDS presence.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:50 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
OKCDCA wrote:
I thought WN had been pretty clear that the costs of operating into Canadian airports did not fit WN’s cost structure. Until those costs are lowered by the Canadian government WN has no plans of entering the Canadian market.

This is an old excuse, but doesn't hold much water. If you look at your receipt for a trans border flight more of the government taxes and fees are on the U.S. side. The landing fees may be higher in Canada (just going on hearsay), but they are paid by every airline using the airport, so WN would not be at any advantage. WN has moved substantially away from the low fare airline it once was and has shown the ability to compete at high cost airports (EWR).

The real reason are that WN has not invested in IT that accept foreign currancy and they do not make their fares available for sale or search by third parties. Transborder flights are dominated by the Canadian point if sale. Forcing Canadians to search the WN website and pay foreign transaction fees is not a good way to compete.

All that being said, I think they could compete on some routes.


Southwest has already updated to a new system for more than a year now, started international service and that is no longer an excuse.

Yes they have updated their IT to allow international flights, but they are still not able to except foreign currancy, in fact their web site actually blocks access from many countries (not Canada). They can still compete to vacation destinations becasue those flights are overwhelmingly US point of sale. Transborder flights are dominated by Canadian point of sale. This could be solved, like AS does, by allowing third party Canadian web sites and travel agents access to their fares, but their fear of comparaison shopping has kept them from doing that. I wonder if only allowing access to Canadian sites is an option?
Last edited by Aliqiout on Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:53 pm

twicearound wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
It'll be news here when announced. There's a lot of Transborder traffic into some U.S. metros where WN is big but there's also lot of competition for Canada-origin passengers. (It won't be long before somebody mentions high Canada airport fees. Somehow high CPE doesn't stop people from flying into EWR, JFK, SFO and LGA... ) viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426381

Because there is a lot of revenue for WN in those US markets and if WN wants to be a carrier that attracts business traffic, they have to go to those airports.


High costs, competition from established canadian carriers like WS, Rouge and Air Transat. 70% or more Canadian point of sale. The taxes negate WN and other US LCCs fare advantage. No access to travel agents in Canada. If you think canadians will head over to Southwest.com, think again. There is a reason why aside from frontier no US lcc/ulcc has tried Canada.


Not entirely true. America West had a robust Canadian network. YVR, YYZ, YYC, YEG.
And I believe even Virgin America dabbled in the Canadian market with a short lived YYZ.


Yes, and WS didn’t exist and TS didn’t really overlap. But if you stroll throughout Terminal 3 at LAS in the early evening in the winter, you’ll pretty quickly figure out that the Canadian carriers have filled in that niche.
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twicearound
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:02 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
twicearound wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
Because there is a lot of revenue for WN in those US markets and if WN wants to be a carrier that attracts business traffic, they have to go to those airports.


High costs, competition from established canadian carriers like WS, Rouge and Air Transat. 70% or more Canadian point of sale. The taxes negate WN and other US LCCs fare advantage. No access to travel agents in Canada. If you think canadians will head over to Southwest.com, think again. There is a reason why aside from frontier no US lcc/ulcc has tried Canada.


Not entirely true. America West had a robust Canadian network. YVR, YYZ, YYC, YEG.
And I believe even Virgin America dabbled in the Canadian market with a short lived YYZ.


Yes, and WS didn’t exist and TS didn’t really overlap. But if you stroll throughout Terminal 3 at LAS in the early evening in the winter, you’ll pretty quickly figure out that the Canadian carriers have filled in that niche.


WS's been around since the 90's. Not sure when they started transborder though. I think part of the lopsidedness has to do a lot with economy/ and the dollar. Mid 2000's the US airline industry was struggling and restructuring and the Canadian dollar was very strong. This led to more expansion on the Canadian side. I think with the recent downturn in Canada we are seeing that shift a bit. Westjet has scaled back quite a bit of US flying in favor of other, more lucrative, or popular destinations.
 
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yyz717
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:09 pm

A sustained increase in CAD parity with the USD could change WN's mind. That would be years away.
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stl07
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:23 pm

longhauler wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
b777900 wrote:
Any update on WN to Toronto?...


BUF.

Except for very rare exceptions, it is unlikely someone from Toronto would drive to Buffalo to fly to the United States. (The reasons why have been hashed about this site for a decade so I won't repeat them all).

This is from Wiki, so take it how you will, but 1 out of every 3 passengers are Canadian at Buffalo airport, most or at least a good portion of which are from Toronto
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ctrabs0114
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:56 pm

stl07 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:

BUF.

Except for very rare exceptions, it is unlikely someone from Toronto would drive to Buffalo to fly to the United States. (The reasons why have been hashed about this site for a decade so I won't repeat them all).

This is from Wiki, so take it how you will, but 1 out of every 3 passengers are Canadian at Buffalo airport, most or at least a good portion of which are from Toronto


There are other cities outside of the GTA between Toronto and Buffalo. Just saying...

That's not to dispute that there's a percentage of Canadian traffic to BUF which is from the GTA, but I don't know if it's as significant as what's being suggested without seeing actual data.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
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northstardc4m
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:10 pm

longhauler wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
b777900 wrote:
Any update on WN to Toronto?...


BUF.

Except for very rare exceptions, it is unlikely someone from Toronto would drive to Buffalo to fly to the United States. (The reasons why have been hashed about this site for a decade so I won't repeat them all).

Oddly enough, people here seem to forget what made Southwest what it is today. That is the whole "point to point" concept, overflying tedious hubs, taking you from A to B with a nonstop or direct flight. Most of the people I have talked with that flew out of BUF, that was the reason. It wasn't a cheap flight to LAX or LGA ... it was a direct flight from BUF to somewhere obscure.

To me, that is the future of Southwest in Canada. But as Air Canada saturates the US market out of YYZ, that edge becomes less and less. I think the last time I counted, AC flew to around 50 cities in the US, nonstop from YYZ! In my opinion then, the whole BUF/YYZ debate is moot. So where does that leave Southwest ...

Look at the rest of Canada. There must be some population centres that so far have been ignored by AC. YWG or YEG come to mind. Low cost airports, lots of room. Maybe less so, but YYC, YVR also are lacking in some US service. Hell, even YXE or YQT come to mind. All of this, Southwest does better than anyone. Moderate sized, ignored markets to places people want to go.

(You'll notice I have not mentioned Quebec. The province, not the city. That is not an oversight. I honestly don't think they'd do well in the Quebec market ... from Quebec.)

Southwest offers a solid product at a reasonable price. I have flown them many times where I walked away thinking ... Yeah, good flight, I'd fly them again! They also have something a lot of upstarts do not. That is a good reputation in Canada. Where most Canadians have never heard of say Allegiant or Spirit ... everyone knows Southwest!



Having flown WN out of BUF several times I can't understand why would anyone call FLL, MCO, LAS or MDW "obscure"? I've connected to SJU (via MCO) and TPA (via MDW), are those obscure as well? Family friends' daughter commutes to LAX or BUR 8-9 times a year from BUF usually on WN usually via LAS or MDW, is SOCAL "obscure"?

And the reason every time was simple... cost, ESPECIALLY with baggage. It was often several hundred cheaper than flying AC or WS or anyone else from YYZ. Similar story for flying AA, B6, DL, UA (or now F9) from BUF as I and/or my family have done. If you are flying US domestic, BUF will 90% of the time be cheaper, and Canadians (mostly GTHA) are all over the place there. Not to mention it's a hell of a lot nicer experience to clear customs at the Rainbow bridge than at YYZ.

And I know a few people that have flown out of IAG on Spirit or Allegiant... I'm not super interested but if i wanted a quick cheap getaway it is an option costing less than even the lowest seat sales out of YYZ. They aren't unknown to say the least... people that travel for leisure know they exist, and may or may not use them depending on how cheap they actually are vs luggage etc. Also search pretty much any travel website and they will show up, F9 as well, where as WN doesn't always, and if it does may not show a fare (kayak for example) unless you go to the Southwest.com site.

If WN hits the Canadian market, HOU-YYC, HOU-YVR, MDW-YYZ would be likely guesses. Heck LAX-YYZ might work with AA pulling out.
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ScottB
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:18 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
in fact their web site actually blocks access from many countries (not Canada).


This is because of higher potential for credit card fraud on purchases from those countries, not because they don't want the business.

longhauler wrote:
Look at the rest of Canada. There must be some population centres that so far have been ignored by AC. YWG or YEG come to mind. Low cost airports, lots of room. Maybe less so, but YYC, YVR also are lacking in some US service. Hell, even YXE or YQT come to mind. All of this, Southwest does better than anyone. Moderate sized, ignored markets to places people want to go.


In Canada, there are about 15 metro areas which are larger than Corpus Christi, which is one of the smallest markets still in WN's network. (Amarillo and Midland-Odessa are a bit smaller but also punch above their weight due to geographic isolation and oil business revenue.) And obviously WN cannot tap into the largest traffic flow in Canadian markets which is domestic traffic. As of 2015, there were 7 Canadian airports which generated more transborder traffic than CRP's total (i.e. addressable market for WN) -- YYZ, YUL, YVR, YYC, YEG, YOW, and YWG. And that also ignores, as others have pointed out, the overwhelmingly Canada-based point-of-sale which gives AC and WS an enormous home-field advantage.

Also, markets like YYZ, YUL, and YOW tend to have some of their strongest traffic flows to the Eastern U.S. where WN is historically weak. NYC is one of the largest transborder markets (if not the largest) from YYZ but WN wouldn't waste its LGA slots on LGA-YYZ when they have plenty of domestic markets which benefit from service to LGA. If they were to ever enter Canada, I'd expect service to YYC or YVR first, with service from markets where WN is a leading carrier and enjoys strong point-of-sale. But I think it's unlikely for all the reasons others have pointed out.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:56 pm

ScottB wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
in fact their web site actually blocks access from many countries (not Canada).


This is because of higher potential for credit card fraud on purchases from those countries, not because they don't want the business.



Of course they want the business, but AA,AS,DL,HA,, and UA all deal with the risk somehow and allow access. Do any of the LCC block access like WN? If the only reason is credit card fraud they can do like may others and allow access, so they can present their product, but limit payment to credit cards issued in select countries, or like many other airlines require the actual card to be presented prior to checking in.
 
Dominion301
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:05 pm

ScottB wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
in fact their web site actually blocks access from many countries (not Canada).


This is because of higher potential for credit card fraud on purchases from those countries, not because they don't want the business.

longhauler wrote:
Look at the rest of Canada. There must be some population centres that so far have been ignored by AC. YWG or YEG come to mind. Low cost airports, lots of room. Maybe less so, but YYC, YVR also are lacking in some US service. Hell, even YXE or YQT come to mind. All of this, Southwest does better than anyone. Moderate sized, ignored markets to places people want to go.


In Canada, there are about 15 metro areas which are larger than Corpus Christi, which is one of the smallest markets still in WN's network. (Amarillo and Midland-Odessa are a bit smaller but also punch above their weight due to geographic isolation and oil business revenue.) And obviously WN cannot tap into the largest traffic flow in Canadian markets which is domestic traffic. As of 2015, there were 7 Canadian airports which generated more transborder traffic than CRP's total (i.e. addressable market for WN) -- YYZ, YUL, YVR, YYC, YEG, YOW, and YWG. And that also ignores, as others have pointed out, the overwhelmingly Canada-based point-of-sale which gives AC and WS an enormous home-field advantage.

Also, markets like YYZ, YUL, and YOW tend to have some of their strongest traffic flows to the Eastern U.S. where WN is historically weak. NYC is one of the largest transborder markets (if not the largest) from YYZ but WN wouldn't waste its LGA slots on LGA-YYZ when they have plenty of domestic markets which benefit from service to LGA. If they were to ever enter Canada, I'd expect service to YYC or YVR first, with service from markets where WN is a leading carrier and enjoys strong point-of-sale. But I think it's unlikely for all the reasons others have pointed out.


While WN are weak in NYC, BOS and DCA, they are dominant at BWI. Most of the following make sense in the east 1-4x daily:
YUL-BWI
YUL-TPA
YUL-RSW (Saturdays)
YUL-FLL
YUL-MCO
YUL-MDW

YOW-BWI
YOW-TPA (Saturdays)
YOW-RSW (Saturdays)
YOW-FLL
YOW-MCO
YOW-MDW

YYZ-BWI
YYZ-BNA
YYZ-MDW
YYZ-DEN
YYZ-FLL
YYZ-MCO
YYZ-TPA
YYZ-RSW

In the west:
YEG-DEN
YEG-MDW
YEG-OAK
YEG-LAS
YEG-PHX

YYC-DEN
YYC-MDW
YYC-OAK
YYC-LAS
YYC-PHX
YYC-LAX

YVR-LAX
YVR-OAK
YVR-LAS
YVR-PHX
YVR-DEN

Now having said all that, it'll be at lest 2024 before WN come to Canada...if ever. The YYZ/YOW/YUL-BWI/Florida and YEG/YYC-YVR-LAS/PHX are the easiest for WN to succeed at, should they dare do so!
 
jplatts
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:02 pm

ScottB wrote:
In Canada, there are about 15 metro areas which are larger than Corpus Christi, which is one of the smallest markets still in WN's network. (Amarillo and Midland-Odessa are a bit smaller but also punch above their weight due to geographic isolation and oil business revenue.) And obviously WN cannot tap into the largest traffic flow in Canadian markets which is domestic traffic. As of 2015, there were 7 Canadian airports which generated more transborder traffic than CRP's total (i.e. addressable market for WN) -- YYZ, YUL, YVR, YYC, YEG, YOW, and YWG. And that also ignores, as others have pointed out, the overwhelmingly Canada-based point-of-sale which gives AC and WS an enormous home-field advantage.


One big difference between Canada and Texas is that WN serves some smaller Texas markets such as AMA, CRP, LBB, and MAF that aren't served by DL, whereas DL already serves most of the major Canadian markets on DL mainline or DL Connection metal.

WN also does serve a few smaller domestic markets in the Florida Panhandle and Hawaii such as OGG, KOA, ECP, and PNS.
 
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flymco753
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:14 pm

We have enough carriers on YYZ-MCO. Here's what the market is now during our busiest time during the winter in Orlando:
Air Transat: 1x 737-800
Air Canada: 5x daily (4 763's and 1 A319)
Sunwing: off daily 737-800
Westjet: 3x daily 737-800

There's also service to airports like London (ON) and Hamilton (ON) on several carriers, so I think we're very well served to Canada from here. Not too mention, they're not even daily in markets like Detroit, Cleveland, and Minneapolis which makes me think service is even less justifiable.
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ScottB
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:27 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
While WN are weak in NYC, BOS and DCA, they are dominant at BWI. Most of the following make sense in the east 1-4x daily:


While Southwest is indeed dominant at BWI, that is of little help to them when the point-of-sale is predominantly Canadian. They'd struggle to fill even 1 or 2 daily flights with their connecting feed. The Florida markets are even more overwhelmingly dominated by Canadian point-of-sale (Floridians largely aren't vacationing in Canada) and Canadians are a lot more likely to choose AC/TS or WS. Due to the high taxes on transborder travel, it's also difficult for WN to offer significantly lower fares than the incumbents, as others have pointed out.
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:54 pm

I’d bet WN would do well enough on YYZ-MDW, YYZ-BWI and YYZ-LAS. I know several people from Toronto who have driven to BUF to catch WN flights. All they need to do is connect Toronto to their top hubs and I’d think they could draw Canadian traffic. Many Canadians fly to Florida and the southwest US for winter, if the price is right, I’m sure a connection in Baltimore or Chicago wouldn’t be an issue.
 
UWPAviation
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:59 pm

Its not happening anytime soon. There is alot of US destinations first, central and s. America then maybe Canada. Heck id expect ANC before Canada. Plus if you look at MDW, their biggest hub, you can fly porter for $130. And thats to Billy Bishop. Porter has been at it at MDW for a long time and has been doing fantastic.

I just dont see the need for Canada. If anything just codeshare with Westjet, I know it wont happen.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:34 pm

UWPAviation wrote:

Its not happening anytime soon. There is alot of US destinations first, central and s. America then maybe Canada. Heck id expect ANC before Canada. Plus if you look at MDW, their biggest hub, you can fly porter for $130. And thats to Billy Bishop. Porter has been at it at MDW for a long time and has been doing fantastic.

I just dont see the need for Canada. If anything just codeshare with Westjet, I know it wont happen.


If WN's pilot contract allowed code-shares, Porter would be a good place to start.
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TWA772LR
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:45 am

As a former SWA CSA, I have seen quite a bit of Canadians use DTW and BUF for their needs.
When wasn't America great?


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Aliqiout
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:07 am

ILS28ORD wrote:
I’d bet WN would do well enough on YYZ-MDW, YYZ-BWI and YYZ-LAS. I know several people from Toronto who have driven to BUF to catch WN flights. All they need to do is connect Toronto to their top hubs and I’d think they could draw Canadian traffic. Many Canadians fly to Florida and the southwest US for winter, if the price is right, I’m sure a connection in Baltimore or Chicago wouldn’t be an issue.

But they probably drove to BUF to save money, not becasue they love WN so much. A WN flight from YYZ would not offer the same kind of savings. WN does not chase low yield passengers anymore.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:13 am

acavpics wrote:
That is true. WN is definitely very widespread. But, it lacks sufficient frequency on many of its routes. For example, BOS-ATL is only 1 daily (Even during summer) while B6 and DL have several flights a day throughout the year. If you look at it that way, then there is still plenty of room for WN to grow domestically.


The reason why WN has not expanded much from ATL is partly gate space. They have a limited number of gates to use, so each market needs to be lucrative. Markets like BOS-ATL are very competitive with B6 in the picture, so they are likely to shift resources elsewhere, like Texas or other points in the South that have less competition and thus command more of a price premium.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:16 am

UWPAviation wrote:
Its not happening anytime soon. There is alot of US destinations first, central and s. America then maybe Canada. Heck id expect ANC before Canada. Plus if you look at MDW, their biggest hub, you can fly porter for $130. And thats to Billy Bishop. Porter has been at it at MDW for a long time and has been doing fantastic.

I just dont see the need for Canada. If anything just codeshare with Westjet, I know it wont happen.


I would think that any chance of a WN/WS codeshare is virtually dead with the WS/DL joint venture now in place. There was talk of a potential WN/WS code share about 10 years ago, but that fell through, if I recall correctly.
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737max8
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:14 pm

Pretty sure GK explained Canada needs 50/50 traffic in each direction to work and will be realistic once WN can accept CAD
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jplatts
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:31 pm

There are some non-US3 hub markets such as AUS, MCI, BNA, MSY, SMF, STL, and SAN that have (a) a significant WN presence, (b) no nonstop service to Canada on any US-based airlines, and (c) nonstop service to at least one Canadian destination on AC. There are some WN FF's in these markets who do travel to Canada on AC, WS, AA, DL, or UA, and there are some travelers in these markets who would choose WN over AC, WS, AA, DL, or UA if WN adds service to Canadian destinations.

WN can likely make nonstop service to Canada work from STL or BNA if there is enough demand on the US side since WN would have O&D and connecting feed on the US side to support such service.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:05 pm

The closest WN had gotten to Canadian service is ValuJet's short lived IAD-YUL service
 
jimbo737
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:41 pm

Wasn't that ATL - YUL?
 
Western727
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:21 pm

Being the husband of a YVR native and a loyal WN traveler (both work and leisure) with Companion Pass privileges, I'd love to see WN enter the Canadian market. WS's recent launching of service to my current airport, AUS, and my sister-in-law's flight last week to YVR via YYC on WS got me drooling hard. Being a SEA native, though, I'm not complaining about being relegated to flying to SEA since we get to spend time in Seattle on both ends of our trips to YVR. Still, I'd love to see WN get up there.

At the same time, I'm reminded of WN's failure at MEX and the reasons cited in another thread (limited-access Mexican point of sale, a lack of CDMX-bound US travelers as opposed to CUN/PVR/et al, etc.) so I wonder if WN feels leery about Canada as a result.
Jack @ AUS
 
ddp
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:14 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
OKCDCA wrote:
I thought WN had been pretty clear that the costs of operating into Canadian airports did not fit WN’s cost structure. Until those costs are lowered by the Canadian government WN has no plans of entering the Canadian market.

This is an old excuse, but doesn't hold much water. If you look at your receipt for a trans border flight more of the government taxes and fees are on the U.S. side. The landing fees may be higher in Canada (just going on hearsay), but they are paid by every airline using the airport, so WN would not be at any advantage. WN has moved substantially away from the low fare airline it once was and has shown the ability to compete at high cost airports (EWR).

The real reason are that WN has not invested in IT that accept foreign currancy and they do not make their fares available for sale or search by third parties. Transborder flights are dominated by the Canadian point if sale. Forcing Canadians to search the WN website and pay foreign transaction fees is not a good way to compete.

All that being said, I think they could compete on some routes.



Air Canada pays very low fees in Toronto, they have essentially an all you can fly pass at Pearson and it works out to be about 60% off posted rates. West Jet also has significant discounts.
The Canadian airports give airlines discounts for volume. No one pays less than West Jet in Calgary, Air Transat and AC have big discounts in Montreal, Sunwing has discounts across Canada for doing lots of flights early in the morning in big cities (pre 730 AM) etc.
 
swafa
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:47 pm

For what it’s worth and without mentioning a name because I’m uncertain of the appropriateness...I’ll say, as evidenced by my user name, I’m a flight attendant at SWA and had a Southwest Sr. VP on a flight I was working back in December of ‘18. Between flights we had a chance to talk some shop. He talked about a 5 year plan at SWA that included, among other things, service to Canada (no specific cities mentioned) and Alaska (Specifically only Anchorage mentioned). I’m guessing that if he felt comfortable enough talking with an FA about the subject, it must be safe to mention it here.
 
Dominion301
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:27 am

jimbo737 wrote:
Wasn't that ATL - YUL?


Was IAD and lasted about 5 months: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 6b18a23402
 
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b777900
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:40 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
acavpics wrote:
That is true. WN is definitely very widespread. But, it lacks sufficient frequency on many of its routes. For example, BOS-ATL is only 1 daily (Even during summer) while B6 and DL have several flights a day throughout the year. If you look at it that way, then there is still plenty of room for WN to grow domestically.


The reason why WN has not expanded much from ATL is partly gate space. They have a limited number of gates to use, so each market needs to be lucrative. Markets like BOS-ATL are very competitive with B6 in the picture, so they are likely to shift resources elsewhere, like Texas or other points in the South that have less competition and thus command more of a price premium.



Soutwest wants to expand more but not domestically.
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jplatts
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:30 pm

b777900 wrote:
Soutwest wants to expand more but not domestically.


There are some other individuals who have said in the Airliners.net forums that WN does have plans to further expand domestically at DEN, BNA, and STL.

WN will continue to add more new nonstop routes within the contiguous U.S., and further domestic expansion by WN within the contiguous U.S. will certainly happen once WN has more planes in service.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: ANY update on Southwest to Canada

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:30 pm

b777900 wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
acavpics wrote:
That is true. WN is definitely very widespread. But, it lacks sufficient frequency on many of its routes. For example, BOS-ATL is only 1 daily (Even during summer) while B6 and DL have several flights a day throughout the year. If you look at it that way, then there is still plenty of room for WN to grow domestically.


The reason why WN has not expanded much from ATL is partly gate space. They have a limited number of gates to use, so each market needs to be lucrative. Markets like BOS-ATL are very competitive with B6 in the picture, so they are likely to shift resources elsewhere, like Texas or other points in the South that have less competition and thus command more of a price premium.



Soutwest wants to expand more but not domestically.


As mentioned earlier, until the MAX situation is resolved, they aren't expanding anywhere.
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