ukoverlander
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Flyadeal cancels 737 max Commitment

Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:06 pm

Havent seen this posted. In case of duplicate thread please delete:

BBC News - Boeing loses big order commitment for 737 Max aircraft

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48899588

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edited thread/title to reflect this wasn't a confirmed order, but a commitment. - 777ER Head Forum Moderator
 
Aviation737
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Re: Flydeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:14 pm

That's a shame. The MAX would have looked good on their livery. So will they switch to the neos now?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Flydeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:26 pm

AFAIK, this was never a firm order, so not really much of a loss.

Looks like they'll operate an A320-only fleet now.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saud ... SKCN1U20AC

ps it's Flyadeal, not Flydeal.
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downdata
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Re: Flydeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:37 pm

Aviation737 wrote:
That's a shame. The MAX would have looked good on their livery. So will they switch to the neos now?


The budget airline will take delivery from 2021 of 30 Airbus A320neo aircraft ordered by its parent, state-owned Saudi Arabian Airlines, at the Paris Air Show in June, it said in its statement.
 
Paulotd
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Re: Flydeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:04 pm

We gonna see more of this, if Boeing doesn't provide an effectively solution quickly!
 
ukoverlander
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:43 pm

There's no good way for Boeing to spin this. Another significant blow to the much maligned Max program.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:50 pm

From April when the airline said the decision would be based on availability

Mr Korfiatis expressed confidence in the Chicago-based jetmaker’s ability to fix the jet and said the decision is still “up in the air.”

“We have no doubt that whatever the issue is, it will be addressed,” he said. “It’s Boeing at the end of the day and they’ve been producing aircraft forever. The 737 is the best-selling model ever so from that point of view, there’s no doubt they’ll fix it, it’s a question of timing and if the timing is too late and has a material impact on the growth plans for Flyadeal, then that’s what will drive it the other way.”


https://www.thenational.ae/business/avi ... s-1.854564
 
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Revelation
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:10 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
From April when the airline said the decision would be based on availability

Mr Korfiatis expressed confidence in the Chicago-based jetmaker’s ability to fix the jet and said the decision is still “up in the air.”

“We have no doubt that whatever the issue is, it will be addressed,” he said. “It’s Boeing at the end of the day and they’ve been producing aircraft forever. The 737 is the best-selling model ever so from that point of view, there’s no doubt they’ll fix it, it’s a question of timing and if the timing is too late and has a material impact on the growth plans for Flyadeal, then that’s what will drive it the other way.”


https://www.thenational.ae/business/avi ... s-1.854564

That's quite a level headed statement, one that is easy to accept.
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superbizzy73
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:18 pm

“Big order”? Please. 30 (50) out of, what, 5000+? Everyone’s getting into the Boeing bashing now. After all, they are the easy target. Now, if Southwest or United cancel their entire orders (which is absolutely not going to happen), print “big order” in bold letters. I’ve never been a fan of the “bad news makes good news” mentality, but to each their own...
 
Blerg
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:23 pm

superbizzy73 wrote:
“Big order”? Please. 30 (50) out of, what, 5000+? Everyone’s getting into the Boeing bashing now. After all, they are the easy target. Now, if Southwest or United cancel their entire orders (which is absolutely not going to happen), print “big order” in bold letters. I’ve never been a fan of the “bad news makes good news” mentality, but to each their own...


I don't know, I wouldn't call 30 planes negligible. If we add AZAL that's 40 so far. I think Boeing worries that this might encourage others to do the same. Don't forget that Norwegian was also quite vocal about the MAX. What happens if they cancel their remaining 92 airplanes?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:41 pm

superbizzy73 wrote:
“Big order”? Please. 30 (50) out of, what, 5000+?


In fact, this 'cancellation' won't change Boeing's backlog at all, since the original commitment was never made firm.

Blerg wrote:
I don't know, I wouldn't call 30 planes negligible.


See above.

IMHO, it's more a perception issue than any real impact on Boeing's backlog. It's just more "bad MAX news".
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YellowJ
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:42 pm

ukoverlander wrote:
There's no good way for Boeing to spin this. Another significant blow to the much maligned Max program.


How can you spin something that was never firmed. :scratchchin:

Not only that; the CEO said the MOU was cancelled strictly because of availability. :yes:
 
AirwayBill
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:02 pm

YellowJ wrote:
ukoverlander wrote:
There's no good way for Boeing to spin this. Another significant blow to the much maligned Max program.


How can you spin something that was never firmed. :scratchchin:

Not only that; the CEO said the MOU was cancelled strictly because of availability. :yes:


He is being politically correct. :stirthepot:
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:17 pm

I was just reading recently online of a

THIRD software glitch found after the recognition of the first two software glitches in regards to the MAX. What I could not figure out if the article's reporter had mistaken the third glitch for the second?

ARE we really up to three glitches on the Software for the MAX? This is really not good if this is the case.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
426Shadow
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:20 pm

So people are getting up in arms about a puny 30 aircraft order and forgetting the 200 potential ones they got at the Paris Air Show? Sounds like Airbus.net, I mean Airliners.net.
Do it on three, One.....THREEEEEEE! Just got the nuts hangin out.
 
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keesje
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:23 pm

Early slots for IAG :thumbsup:
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Someone83
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:25 pm

YellowJ wrote:
Not only that; the CEO said the MOU was cancelled strictly because of availability. :yes:


And the A320neo has better availability?

I'm really not sure, who's trying to fool whom here..... :stirthepot:
 
goosebayguy
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:33 pm

The problem for Boeing is that even if they eventually get the software to work they will still have an unstable aircraft. Fighter jets are unstable but the pilots get an ejection seat just in case the software fails, Boeing 737 passengers don't. AIrbus sell a stable aircraft Boeing don't. I can see more cancellations.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:34 pm

Narrow bodies are selling much faster at this point than both manufacturers working at capacity can fulfill. This situation is likely to continue for some time. Boeing WILL get the MAX back in the air, and the status will return to quo. Availability will continue to be an issue for airlines that are not wedded to either the A320 or the 737, and since Boeing is currently producing more and has a smaller backlog, it will likely do better with those orders. But now it is Airbus that has the upper hand, since Boeing can’t deliver any. But it is temporary, and airlines that figure they can bail on 737s and get A320neos quicker might be in for an unpleasant surprise. Isn’t Boeing still building 737s? So once the fix gets certified they will have a flood of deliveries, and will quickly be able to offer much better delivery times than Airbus.
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rbavfan
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:42 pm

superbizzy73 wrote:
“Big order”? Please. 30 (50) out of, what, 5000+? Everyone’s getting into the Boeing bashing now. After all, they are the easy target. Now, if Southwest or United cancel their entire orders (which is absolutely not going to happen), print “big order” in bold letters. I’ve never been a fan of the “bad news makes good news” mentality, but to each their own...


30 planes here & 30 planes there will start to add up fast.Good thing Boeing made that LOI with IAG to try an look good at the Paris Air Show, BTW how many LOI's have we seen dropped over the years. The 737 had also been my fave plane for years.
Last edited by rbavfan on Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:45 pm

goosebayguy wrote:
The problem for Boeing is that even if they eventually get the software to work they will still have an unstable aircraft. Fighter jets are unstable but the pilots get an ejection seat just in case the software fails, Boeing 737 passengers don't. AIrbus sell a stable aircraft Boeing don't. I can see more cancellations.

:redflag:

Unstable has a very specific meaning - the aircraft’s aerodynamic response to an excursion in one of the three axes is for the displacement from the original position to increase, as opposed to a stable situation where the response would be for the displacement to decrease back to the equilibrium position. This is not the case for the 737 - if it were it would not be able to be certified. The 737 Max has a specific system (MCAS) designed to modify control feel in a certain part of the flight envelope such that a pilot would not notice a difference from the control feel in a 737NG; this is the system at issue.

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Etheereal
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:49 pm

ukoverlander wrote:
There's no good way for Boeing to spin this. Another significant blow to the much maligned Max program.

They spun it beforehand with the IAG order, soo..

keesje wrote:
Early slots for IAG :thumbsup:

we really think alike, lol.
JetBuddy wrote:
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:lol:
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:13 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
I was just reading recently online of a

THIRD software glitch found after the recognition of the first two software glitches in regards to the MAX. What I could not figure out if the article's reporter had mistaken the third glitch for the second?

ARE we really up to three glitches on the Software for the MAX? This is really not good if this is the case.


The latest I've heard was that there were concerns regarding the CPU load with the FCC's running the improved MCAS.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
VV
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:16 pm

How can they cancel an order that was not firmed?
 
Interested
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:29 pm

Is a letter of intent to buy 200 planes a firm order?

It certainly was treated like it was a couple of weeks ago?

Just saying ......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:37 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Narrow bodies are selling much faster at this point than both manufacturers working at capacity can fulfill. This situation is likely to continue for some time. Boeing WILL get the MAX back in the air, and the status will return to quo. Availability will continue to be an issue for airlines that are not wedded to either the A320 or the 737, and since Boeing is currently producing more and has a smaller backlog, it will likely do better with those orders. But now it is Airbus that has the upper hand, since Boeing can’t deliver any. But it is temporary, and airlines that figure they can bail on 737s and get A320neos quicker might be in for an unpleasant surprise. Isn’t Boeing still building 737s? So once the fix gets certified they will have a flood of deliveries, and will quickly be able to offer much better delivery times than Airbus.


Don't think there are any whitetails being built, and Boeing is 10 less per month than planned, so once the MAX is recertified, the planes currently being stored will be upgraded and delivered, but there will still be a cab of around 70 planes not build which needs to be built and delivered. So no, I don't think Boeing can offer better delivery times, not on the basis you mentioned, the MAX backlog is less, so Boeing should be able to deliver faster on that basis or on the basis of more cancelations.
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VV
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:41 pm

Interested wrote:
Is a letter of intent to buy 200 planes a firm order?

It certainly was treated like it was a couple of weeks ago?

Just saying ......


Well, it seems someone knew Flyadel was not going to firm the letter of intent and grab the opportunity.
Perhaps IAG's letter of intent is somehow related to Flyadeal abandon of its letter of intent.

In addition it may be more interesting for Boeing to put its foot in IAG's narrowbody fleet.

It is an interesting dynamics. It looks like Boeing is managing the backlog with a certain discipline.
 
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keesje
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:56 pm

VV wrote:
Interested wrote:
Is a letter of intent to buy 200 planes a firm order?

It certainly was treated like it was a couple of weeks ago?

Just saying ......


Well, it seems someone knew Flyadel was not going to firm the letter of intent and grab the opportunity.
Perhaps IAG's letter of intent is somehow related to Flyadeal abandon of its letter of intent.

In addition it may be more interesting for Boeing to put its foot in IAG's narrowbody fleet.

It is an interesting dynamics. It looks like Boeing is managing the backlog with a certain discipline.


They are adjusting to realities. They’ll prefer to adjust conditions & defer for 10 years to keep the backlog intact/ avoid doubts.

An high numbered backlog, free cash flow magic, deferred cost, stock buy back, all to keep the stock value high.

Hopefully the bubble won’t burst & stock owners remain absorbing the Q1,2, 3 and 4 briefings like vanilla icecream.
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Lewton
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:01 pm

Someone83 wrote:
And the A320neo has better availability?

They might simply lease A320ceo and/or A320neo.
So it is not a matter of "Airbus being able to deliver faster" but a matter of what is available for them to get somehow.

And no, don't tell me that in this case they could also lease 737NG.
It is a totally different task to add to their fleet now a model that they never used before and it has just been discontinued.
 
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tjcab
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:10 pm

426Shadow wrote:
So people are getting up in arms about a puny 30 aircraft order and forgetting the 200 potential ones they got at the Paris Air Show? Sounds like Airbus.net, I mean Airliners.net.


Not sure when an order for 30 737-sized aircraft became puny" A 200 aircraft order IS an very large, yes, but doesn't make 30 units insignificant. Should Boeing should not accept orders under 50 units and only care about the largest players?

Should we never be disappointed with an order cancellation at Boeing? If we are, does it automatically means some pro-Airbus agenda? Probably only in your mind. In fact, over the years on this platform,I have read statements such as (on more than one occasion) "it's good for Boeing because it opens up delivery slots..."

Now, a potential order is a potential order. I'm sure Boeing is not happy about this. EVERY order counts, or they would not be responding to specific RFP's.
 
Chemist
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:03 pm

goosebayguy wrote:
The problem for Boeing is that even if they eventually get the software to work they will still have an unstable aircraft. Fighter jets are unstable but the pilots get an ejection seat just in case the software fails, Boeing 737 passengers don't. AIrbus sell a stable aircraft Boeing don't. I can see more cancellations.


Please cite a link where the plane is shown to be unstable.You don't appear to understand what that statement means.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:40 pm

ukoverlander wrote:
There's no good way for Boeing to spin this. Another significant blow to the much maligned Max program.


Did Lion Air ever announce any MAX cancellations? What about Ethiopian?

Only thing that has surprised me more than the length of the grounding
is the lack of large cancellations.
 
YellowJ
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:51 pm

Someone83 wrote:
YellowJ wrote:
Not only that; the CEO said the MOU was cancelled strictly because of availability. :yes:


And the A320neo has better availability?

I'm really not sure, who's trying to fool whom here..... :stirthepot:


The A320Neo is being delivered to airlines and leasing companies (of which he can snag a few). The MAX is not. Quite easy to figure out.

I wonder indeed who is trying to pull the wool over whom. :duck:
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:52 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
I was just reading recently online of a

THIRD software glitch found after the recognition of the first two software glitches in regards to the MAX. What I could not figure out if the article's reporter had mistaken the third glitch for the second?

ARE we really up to three glitches on the Software for the MAX? This is really not good if this is the case.


The most recent one isn’t a software glitch. It’s no different than the 737NG. One FAA Pilot took it upon himself to make up a rule that doesn’t exist and make an issue out of something that isn’t. Boeing just decided not to fight it. The original MCAS issue is a screw up. This latest issue causing a further delay is BS and really unfair.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:03 pm

goosebayguy wrote:
The problem for Boeing is that even if they eventually get the software to work they will still have an unstable aircraft. Fighter jets are unstable but the pilots get an ejection seat just in case the software fails, Boeing 737 passengers don't. AIrbus sell a stable aircraft Boeing don't. I can see more cancellations.


Nothing in your post is factually correct. I guess this is the new A.net where facts aren’t required. Every Boeing airplane is stable.

The reason that MCAS was developed has also been greatly misunderstood and misreported. It was to smooth out some handling characteristics when going into a stall. Not unstable. Just to meet some requirements.
 
LDRA
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:13 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
I was just reading recently online of a

THIRD software glitch found after the recognition of the first two software glitches in regards to the MAX. What I could not figure out if the article's reporter had mistaken the third glitch for the second?

ARE we really up to three glitches on the Software for the MAX? This is really not good if this is the case.


The most recent one isn’t a software glitch. It’s no different than the 737NG. One FAA Pilot took it upon himself to make up a rule that doesn’t exist and make an issue out of something that isn’t. Boeing just decided not to fight it. The original MCAS issue is a screw up. This latest issue causing a further delay is BS and really unfair.


I thought the issue is that delay may cause unrecoverable dive? The same delay may be recoverable for NG due to aero differences
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:29 pm

LDRA wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
I was just reading recently online of a

THIRD software glitch found after the recognition of the first two software glitches in regards to the MAX. What I could not figure out if the article's reporter had mistaken the third glitch for the second?

ARE we really up to three glitches on the Software for the MAX? This is really not good if this is the case.


The most recent one isn’t a software glitch. It’s no different than the 737NG. One FAA Pilot took it upon himself to make up a rule that doesn’t exist and make an issue out of something that isn’t. Boeing just decided not to fight it. The original MCAS issue is a screw up. This latest issue causing a further delay is BS and really unfair.


I thought the issue is that delay may cause unrecoverable dive? The same delay may be recoverable for NG due to aero differences


It’s exactly identical to the NG. Totally recoverable. Just that a certain FAA pilot decided to make up his own interpretation of CFR 25.1309 that wasn’t warranted or fair. I’m assuming Boeing thought that it was better strategically to not fight it, even though the ruling was totally inappropriate.

I can take a wild guess who the FAA pilot was. I know one who often oversteps his boundaries and makes up his own rules rather than following what the FARs say. It almost caused the elimination of some great refueling information provided on the KC-46 Display because he made up his own rule for the FAR paragraph about non-alerting use of red and amber on the Flight Deck. In other words, pig-headedness almost took away a good safety enhancement that Boeing wanted to provide despite there being no requirement for it.
 
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American 767
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Re: Flydeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:42 pm

Paulotd wrote:
We gonna see more of this, if Boeing doesn't provide an effectively solution quickly!


It's already the second "slap in the face" Boeing receives. Didn't an airline from Indonesia or somewhere in the Far East also cancel their MAX, the one who received only one MAX prior to the grounding? I won't be surprised if American chooses not to take theirs. I don't mean to disrespect 737 fans, Boeing fans, or start an A vs B fight, but American fell in love with the 321NEO. Yes I know were are talking here about Flyadeal.
Ben Soriano
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Flydeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:49 pm

American 767 wrote:
Paulotd wrote:
We gonna see more of this, if Boeing doesn't provide an effectively solution quickly!


It's already the second "slap in the face" Boeing receives. Didn't an airline from Indonesia or somewhere in the Far East also cancel their MAX, the one who received only one MAX prior to the grounding? I won't be surprised if American chooses not to take theirs. I don't mean to disrespect 737 fans, Boeing fans, or start an A vs B fight, but American fell in love with the 321NEO. Yes I know were are talking here about Flyadeal.


Airlines don’t make emotional decisions because they “fell in love”. They make business decisions.

Everyone knows the A321NEO is an outstanding airplane. Boeing is certainly well aware of it.

I see no indication that AA will cancel their 737 orders. The Max certainly has a place in AA’s fleet once it’s gets back in service.
 
Ertro
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:55 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
It’s exactly identical to the NG. Totally recoverable. Just that a certain FAA pilot decided to make up his own interpretation of CFR 25.1309 that wasn’t warranted or fair. I’m assuming Boeing thought that it was better strategically to not fight it, even though the ruling was totally inappropriate.

I can take a wild guess who the FAA pilot was. I know one who often oversteps his boundaries and makes up his own rules rather than following what the FARs say. It almost caused the elimination of some great refueling information provided on the KC-46 Display because he made up his own rule for the FAR paragraph about non-alerting use of red and amber on the Flight Deck. In other words, pig-headedness almost took away a good safety enhancement that Boeing wanted to provide despite there being no requirement for it.


I would much rather hear that Boeing is handling the real issues and if there is any problem with them then fight the actual issues in a professional manner rather than starting bullying individual employees to not rock the boat or else they are going to get personal attacks coming from Boeings direction leaked into public forums. Because this is what this sounds like.
Last edited by Ertro on Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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American 767
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Re: Flydeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:57 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
American 767 wrote:
Paulotd wrote:
We gonna see more of this, if Boeing doesn't provide an effectively solution quickly!


It's already the second "slap in the face" Boeing receives. Didn't an airline from Indonesia or somewhere in the Far East also cancel their MAX, the one who received only one MAX prior to the grounding? I won't be surprised if American chooses not to take theirs. I don't mean to disrespect 737 fans, Boeing fans, or start an A vs B fight, but American fell in love with the 321NEO. Yes I know were are talking here about Flyadeal.


Airlines don’t make emotional decisions because they “fell in love”. They make business decisions.

Everyone knows the A321NEO is an outstanding airplane. Boeing is certainly well aware of it.

I see no indication that AA will cancel their 737 orders. The Max certainly has a place in AA’s fleet once it’s gets back in service.


Yes I know. I meant to say the 321NEO suits AA very well, as the 321NEOLR will for thin capacity long haul missions. Yes of course I know an airline doesn't choose an aircraft just because it looks beautiful.
Ben Soriano
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:58 pm

Ertro wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
It’s exactly identical to the NG. Totally recoverable. Just that a certain FAA pilot decided to make up his own interpretation of CFR 25.1309 that wasn’t warranted or fair. I’m assuming Boeing thought that it was better strategically to not fight it, even though the ruling was totally inappropriate.

I can take a wild guess who the FAA pilot was. I know one who often oversteps his boundaries and makes up his own rules rather than following what the FARs say. It almost caused the elimination of some great refueling information provided on the KC-46 Display because he made up his own rule for the FAR paragraph about non-alerting use of red and amber on the Flight Deck. In other words, pig-headedness almost took away a good safety enhancement that Boeing wanted to provide despite there being no requirement for it.


I would much rather hear that Boeing is handling the real issues and if there is any problem with them then fight the actual issues in a professional manner rather than starting bullying individual employees to not rock the boat or else they are going to get personal attacks coming from Boeings direction leaked into public forums.


I’m not clear what exactly you are trying to say, but I have not seen any bullying. I’ll stand behind what I said earlier as being accurate and correct.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6263
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Flydeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:00 pm

American 767 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
American 767 wrote:

It's already the second "slap in the face" Boeing receives. Didn't an airline from Indonesia or somewhere in the Far East also cancel their MAX, the one who received only one MAX prior to the grounding? I won't be surprised if American chooses not to take theirs. I don't mean to disrespect 737 fans, Boeing fans, or start an A vs B fight, but American fell in love with the 321NEO. Yes I know were are talking here about Flyadeal.


Airlines don’t make emotional decisions because they “fell in love”. They make business decisions.

Everyone knows the A321NEO is an outstanding airplane. Boeing is certainly well aware of it.

I see no indication that AA will cancel their 737 orders. The Max certainly has a place in AA’s fleet once it’s gets back in service.


Yes I know. I meant to say the 321NEO suits AA very well, as the 321NEOLR will for thin capacity long haul missions. Yes of course I know an airline doesn't choose an aircraft just because it looks beautiful.


I can say that Boeing and it’s employees are keenly aware of the superiority of the A321. I’ve heard it mentioned in meetings. There is no lack of healthy respect. Boeing needs to do the NMA and get back on top.

The A350 is an excellent machine too. At least in that area Boeing well competes or even exceeds with the 787 and 777X. For the middle market though, I have no illusion over who has the better product.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6263
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:07 pm

kalvado wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
LDRA wrote:

I thought the issue is that delay may cause unrecoverable dive? The same delay may be recoverable for NG due to aero differences


It’s exactly identical to the NG. Totally recoverable. Just that a certain FAA pilot decided to make up his own interpretation of CFR 25.1309 that wasn’t warranted or fair. I’m assuming Boeing thought that it was better strategically to not fight it, even though the ruling was totally inappropriate.

I can take a wild guess who the FAA pilot was. I know one who often oversteps his boundaries and makes up his own rules rather than following what the FARs say. It almost caused the elimination of some great refueling information provided on the KC-46 Display because he made up his own rule for the FAR paragraph about non-alerting use of red and amber on the Flight Deck. In other words, pig-headedness almost took away a good safety enhancement that Boeing wanted to provide despite there being no requirement for it.

Just to remind you about true pig-headness here
JT610
ET302


Not at all. They are tragic accidents that shouldn’t have occurred, but your over dramatizing them doesn’t help.

They were maybe caused by errors and mistakes. In no way did Boeing not think the airplane was completely safe or it wouldn’t have been delivered.
 
kalvado
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:16 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
kalvado wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

It’s exactly identical to the NG. Totally recoverable. Just that a certain FAA pilot decided to make up his own interpretation of CFR 25.1309 that wasn’t warranted or fair. I’m assuming Boeing thought that it was better strategically to not fight it, even though the ruling was totally inappropriate.

I can take a wild guess who the FAA pilot was. I know one who often oversteps his boundaries and makes up his own rules rather than following what the FARs say. It almost caused the elimination of some great refueling information provided on the KC-46 Display because he made up his own rule for the FAR paragraph about non-alerting use of red and amber on the Flight Deck. In other words, pig-headedness almost took away a good safety enhancement that Boeing wanted to provide despite there being no requirement for it.

Just to remind you about true pig-headness here
JT610
ET302


Not at all. They are tragic accidents that shouldn’t have occurred, but your over dramatizing them doesn’t help.

They were maybe caused by errors and mistakes. In no way did Boeing not think the airplane was completely safe or it wouldn’t have been delivered.

It only means that Boeing - including its employees - may benefit from cutting down on the ego and accepting some outside opinion. If Boeing cannot learn things the hard way - it only means learning it very hard way may be next.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3190
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:17 pm

It may not be a big loss in isolation, but it does show that airlines will look for alternatives in the face of a situation like this.

I have read just as many comments on here over time how things are falling apart for Airbus if they lose an order this side or smaller, whether it’s a firmed or an MOU, so in terms of balance, let’s just say that any order loss isn’t ideal.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1262
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:36 am

Well, some other airline will now be able to take delivery of their 737's sooner.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1562
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:38 am

IndianicWorld wrote:
It may not be a big loss in isolation, but it does show that airlines will look for alternatives in the face of a situation like this.

I have read just as many comments on here over time how things are falling apart for Airbus if they lose an order this side or smaller, whether it’s a firmed or an MOU, so in terms of balance, let’s just say that any order loss isn’t ideal.


Definitely not ideal. That said, it depends on the backlog as to whether it is a big deal. If you have 200 planes and someone cancels 20, that's a much bigger deal than 30 out of 4000.

Pressure is on Boeing though to get it right.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
YellowJ
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:59 am

Re: Flydeal cancels 737 max order

Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:07 am

American 767 wrote:
Paulotd wrote:
We gonna see more of this, if Boeing doesn't provide an effectively solution quickly!


It's already the second "slap in the face" Boeing receives. Didn't an airline from Indonesia or somewhere in the Far East also cancel their MAX, the one who received only one MAX prior to the grounding? I won't be surprised if American chooses not to take theirs. I don't mean to disrespect 737 fans, Boeing fans, or start an A vs B fight, but American fell in love with the 321NEO. Yes I know were are talking here about Flyadeal.


Garuda took one and deferred their entire order well before the first crash due to financial constraints. The only reason they even took that one was because it was too far built to cancel without penalty. Their cancellation has to do with money problems than anything else.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 4846
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: Flyadeal cancels 737 max order

Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:15 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
In no way did Boeing not think the airplane was completely safe or it wouldn’t have been delivered.


Is that why they were already scrambling to fix MCAS before the second accident?

I understand that you have a vested interest in Boeing, and an obvious emotional link. But I'd be careful about derogatory accusations leveled at FAA employees on a public and relatively high traffic website, even anonymously. Especially if you are an employee.

Part of the reason Boeing ended up in this mess is because they were entrusted with part of the certification process and abused it. Any overzealous knee-jerk reaction from regulating authorities now is not only understandable, but expected.

As for minimizing the effects of cancellations, I wouldn't be so dismissive. Most airlines will not and cannot cancel simply because many were about to receive or were already receiving their MAXes. There is no way of pulling out of that deal, even if they could get all their money back, as it would mean ending up at the bottom of the waiting list for the only other competitor. Most customers have basically no choice but to wait for the MAX to fly and be delivered again because as long as it may take, it will still be shorter than trying to get NEOs instead.
Those that may still afford to cancel are those like Flyadeal who hadn't firmed anything yet and are still years away from receiving any airplane.

The real impact for Boeing will not be in terms of orders or deliveries, but financial. Once the lawyer feeding frenzy is over, it's anybody's guess how much meat will be left on the 737 program's bones, but my guess is that it'll be a looong while before Boeing ever makes money off the 737 again, if ever.
Once they have to start reflecting the compensation costs on their spreadsheets, then the real effects on stock price will be known.

And, no, this is no blessing for Airbus, quite the contrary. As I said above, it is unlikely that they will 'steal' many customers away from Boeing because of this, as they are all mostly tied to the MAX's fate by now.
What this is doing is seriously putting a strain on the airline business as a whole by artificially constraining capacity, hurting the airlines' bottom line and consequently the money they have to reinvest in newer airplanes down the line. It throws a wrench in the delicate balance that is the largest portion of the airline business by far.
This is bad for everyone in the industry, albeit much more so for Boeing.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.

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