Art at ISP
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Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:06 pm

As a frequent business traveler, I had moved most of my air travel from AA to DL over the past year. Lately, I have been trying Jet Blue more often due to schedule and in some cases price.
My daughter has also used Jet Blue 4 times over the past few months, and EVERY flight was delayed at least 1.5 hours. I had a flight in November which was delayed 4 hours.

While I know about weather delays and ATC delays, one issue seems to be that their utilization of aircraft does not leave room to make up delays by RON the aircraft. One has to wonder if the money saved by utilization almost 23 hours a day is wasted on compensation to passengers for extreme delays.

I have two trips on JetBlue over the next two weeks--I can't wait to see how late these will be.

I wonder if they are aware of the poor performance, and what, if any steps they are considering to correct it.

Thanks.
 
tphuang
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:28 pm

Art at ISP wrote:
As a frequent business traveler, I had moved most of my air travel from AA to DL over the past year. Lately, I have been trying Jet Blue more often due to schedule and in some cases price.
My daughter has also used Jet Blue 4 times over the past few months, and EVERY flight was delayed at least 1.5 hours. I had a flight in November which was delayed 4 hours.

While I know about weather delays and ATC delays, one issue seems to be that their utilization of aircraft does not leave room to make up delays by RON the aircraft. One has to wonder if the money saved by utilization almost 23 hours a day is wasted on compensation to passengers for extreme delays.

I have two trips on JetBlue over the next two weeks--I can't wait to see how late these will be.

I wonder if they are aware of the poor performance, and what, if any steps they are considering to correct it.

Thanks.


Since we will probably get a lot of posts about how JetBlue is never on time. I will just put some stats into perspective.

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/OT_Delay/ ... 1.asp?pn=1
This is official gov't stats.
If you put JFK in there and then select month Jan to April of this year (all they have so far).

You'd see as a whole, all carriers are on time 78.6% of time out of JFK. For JetBlue, it is 74.66% on time. I used them vs all carriers since it's hard to quantify AA/DL performance with that page due to their regional operations.

So it's definitely less on time than average, but not as crazy as some people make it out to be. And keep in mind, they also have shorter block times than DLs.

Also keep in mind, they do tend to run a better operation on mint and business routes vs leisure stuff.

And out of BOS,
all carriers are on time 73.19% of time from Jan to April.
And they are a on time 70.2% of time.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:37 pm

Clever, measuring the carrier against the average instead of the best. That's some quality nonsense that would fit fine with Corporate Communications.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:41 pm

Putting them against all carriers is misleading as data for all carriers includes data for B6 as well. B6 is below average and has significant operations at both JFK and BOS and would therefore bring down averages at both airports. Data for all carriers minus B6 would be higher than the averages for all carriers with B6 data included.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:03 pm

In a word, they are poorly led. You hit upon some of the issues. But it all comes back to leadership.

As an aside, I've always tried to reconcile "low cost," with based in the Northeast. Nothing is low cost there. So, they skimp on needed areas to try to save costs and it kills them operationally. And they don't fix it. Quarter after quarter.
 
tphuang
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Clever, measuring the carrier against the average instead of the best. That's some quality nonsense that would fit fine with Corporate Communications.


I wrote " I used them vs all carriers since it's hard to quantify AA/DL performance with that page due to their regional operations."

I don't know for example, how many flights AA/DL operates on each of the regionals and mainline. So it's kind of hard to work out exactly what their actual OTP number is.

SteelChair wrote:
In a word, they are poorly led. You hit upon some of the issues. But it all comes back to leadership.

As an aside, I've always tried to reconcile "low cost," with based in the Northeast. Nothing is low cost there. So, they skimp on needed areas to try to save costs and it kills them operationally. And they don't fix it. Quarter after quarter.

only 2 fleet types, no legacy pensions, no lounges, no alliance partnerships, no domestic interlining, no operations in small airports, no RJ operation. Quite a lot of areas actually.
 
airbazar
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:40 pm

Easy answer: They have a total of 3 hubs, 2 of which are located in 2 of the most delay prone airports in the U.S. That means that pretty much every single one of their planes probably touches one of those 2 airports every day.
At the end of the day their route network is just not as diversified as most other carriers. Their operations are very heavily dependent on what happens in NY and Boston.
Last edited by airbazar on Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ScottB
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:40 pm

tphuang wrote:
no operations in small airports


MVY, HYA, ACK, ORH, BZN, SRQ, SWF, HDN, PSE, BQN?
 
bloxomo
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:42 pm

Can easily aggregate everyone but B6 in the spreadsheet you get from the "Download Raw Data" link:

BOS: B6 70.2%, everyone else 74.9%
JFK: B6 74.7%, everyone else 80.4%
 
njdevilsin03
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:57 pm

And factor in horrible weather in FLL during the summer and a closed runway...
717, 727, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 752, 753, 762, 763, 777, DC9, MD80, DC10, L1011, ERJ, CRJ, ATR, DH8, A300,
 
SteelChair
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:22 pm

tphuang wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Clever, measuring the carrier against the average instead of the best. That's some quality nonsense that would fit fine with Corporate Communications.


I wrote " I used them vs all carriers since it's hard to quantify AA/DL performance with that page due to their regional operations."

I don't know for example, how many flights AA/DL operates on each of the regionals and mainline. So it's kind of hard to work out exactly what their actual OTP number is.

SteelChair wrote:
In a word, they are poorly led. You hit upon some of the issues. But it all comes back to leadership.

As an aside, I've always tried to reconcile "low cost," with based in the Northeast. Nothing is low cost there. So, they skimp on needed areas to try to save costs and it kills them operationally. And they don't fix it. Quarter after quarter.

only 2 fleet types, no legacy pensions, no lounges, no alliance partnerships, no domestic interlining, no operations in small airports, no RJ operation. Quite a lot of areas actually.


"Only 2 fleet types"

Many on here view fleet standardization as the holy grail. Yet, JetBlue sux with only 2!
 
Brickell305
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:42 pm

njdevilsin03 wrote:
And factor in horrible weather in FLL during the summer and a closed runway...

They are below average on air carrier delays (which already factor out weather and late arriving aircraft) in FLL for 2019. And yes, the numbers run thru April which doesn’t include summer. However, they still do perform below average during the same timeframe.
 
tphuang
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:51 pm

ScottB wrote:
tphuang wrote:
no operations in small airports


MVY, HYA, ACK, ORH, BZN, SRQ, SWF, HDN, PSE, BQN?


they have a few, but overall they don't have that many stations and in those small stations, I'm sure they outsource everything. So that would lower the costs.

SteelChair wrote:
"Only 2 fleet types"

Many on here view fleet standardization as the holy grail. Yet, JetBlue sux with only 2!


you were asking for why they would have lower cost. And it's pretty obvious that lower fleet complexity is a major reason for that.

That's partly why WN still has such low cost despite paying its workers competitive salaries.

Brickell305 wrote:
njdevilsin03 wrote:
And factor in horrible weather in FLL during the summer and a closed runway...

They are below average on air carrier delays (which already factor out weather and late arriving aircraft) in FLL for 2019. And yes, the numbers run thru April which doesn’t include summer. However, they still do perform below average during the same timeframe.


they put less effort into running a good operation in Florida.

In Boston, they are trying a lot harder now and you will see the spring to summer numbers look a lot better. In everyday I looked at in June, they had higher OTP than airport as a whole.

And in JFK, you will see mint and other business routes do a lot better than the island or upstate new york stuff. The VFR crowd is generally less bothered when things are not on time.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:01 pm

airbazar wrote:
Easy answer: They have a total of 3 hubs, 2 of which are located in 2 of the most delay prone airports in the U.S. That means that pretty much every single one of their planes probably touches one of those 2 airports every day.
At the end of the day their route network is just not as diversified as most other carriers. Their operations are very heavily dependent on what happens in NY and Boston.


Let's not forget about MCO/FLL.

But yes, for delays they chose some pretty bad airports. But, there's always O'hare if they want to make things worse!
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:27 pm

I would also say that quick turnaround times can cause a cascade as well. Even during the summer, B6 will usually only have 1 or 2 spare aircraft at JFK available during the day.
 
DELTA777
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:01 pm

Very high fleet utilization, short turn times, lean crew staffing and not allowing Tech Ops to have enough time to clear maintenance issues leads to the poor performance. Simply put, B6 chooses to perform badly because their operation looks good on paper (high utilization, lean staffing, etc).
 
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usxguy
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:08 am

I am SO not feeding the trolls, but since when was JetBlue's performance actually good?

Not sure I've ever heard of JetBlue being on time, and not being a basher, but I think the last on-time JetBlue flight I had was from SJU to FLL years ago. Everything else has been 20-45 mins late. Some of the stations have been good about quick turns.
xx
 
greendot
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:34 am

I would blame, or congratulate JBs management.

Obviously the customer cares about on-time performance. Even the FAA cares although you can be 14 minutes late? In either case, no one care more about you than you. So on-time is a very important metric for customers.

The question is, what if on-time were NOT an important metric to JB? At the end of the day, JB collects the same money whether it does so on-time or late. Customers hardly ever get a refund because there is no legal mechanism in place for customers to seek redress for late flights. JB might throw a few peanuts at customers who make noise but the vast majority of customers just accept it. At the end of the day, they still fly JB because they: a) might be the only company with open seats, b) might be cheaper that time of night, c) are brainwashed by JB marketing. People simply aren't voting with their money.

It seems that JB exists only for its management to reap huge rewards, along with the owners. If they wanted to provide better service, they could have decently clean airplanes (their interiors are from WWII), they could stop their ridiculously short turn times, and they could design route structures that are less prone to delays. None of that seems to matter anywhere near as much as profit. They don't even treat their employees well. Apparently pilots got a work contract albeit it is not very good compared to other contracts and they basically lost all their profit sharing. A Delta pilot from of mine had $25,000 in profit sharing and a JB guy said he had $300 or something ridiculously low. Flight attendants seem to be on the same boat. They work them like beasts of burden down to legal limits but compensation is still very poor, yet the pilots and fight attendants are the ones dealing with angry customers caused by management's constant squeezing.

The whole on-time thing is mostly a metrics game. JB could improve it if they wanted to. However, I think their priorities are calculated to be otherwise. I don't think they are so dumb that they don't care about numbers or that they don't know how to use statistics to run an airline. On the contrary, I think they are experts at it. I think they have calculated the optimal amount of customer and employee abuse they can get away with while still maintaining an acceptable range of profit. It's simply the science of exploitation, at your expense.
 
tphuang
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:34 am

usxguy wrote:
I am SO not feeding the trolls, but since when was JetBlue's performance actually good?

Not sure I've ever heard of JetBlue being on time, and not being a basher, but I think the last on-time JetBlue flight I had was from SJU to FLL years ago. Everything else has been 20-45 mins late. Some of the stations have been good about quick turns.

If 3/4 of their flight from JFK are on time, then you have obviously been very unlucky.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:02 am

B6's performance has never been good. I liken it to the fact they have a HIGH, HIGH fleet utilization rate, operate from some congested/weather heavy markets, and poor management.

DAB was a pretty well run station as they quickly turned the plane around.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
catiii
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:23 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Clever, measuring the carrier against the average instead of the best. That's some quality nonsense that would fit fine with Corporate Communications.


The best is Hawaiian. Should we all try and measure up to them?
 
rj1385
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:27 am

I would assume weather is probably a factor as well. Smallest thunderstorm in the south or in the north can have a huge effect. Their bases are so close together and ripple effect happens.

My last flight though was SWF-MCO and it was delayed 1.5 hours because the air conditioning was creating snow in the cabin of our 13 year old E190. The 30 year old Q300s the Piedmont flew for USAirways looked in better shape.
 
JohnAudiR18
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:44 am

I know this is really really really hard for some of y’all to understand, but in aviation, you get what you paid for. So if you pay 50 bucks for a seat on Allegiant/Frontier/Spirit, you might get there, eventually, and hopefully alive. If you pay 100 bucks for the same seat on JetBlue and Southwest, you’ll get there, late but alive. Finally, if you pay the full 200 on AA, UA, or DL. You’ll get there (barring weather or ATC) on time, alive, but tired because tiny leg room.
 
Bluewho
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:27 am

DELTA777 wrote:
Very high fleet utilization, short turn times, lean crew staffing and not allowing Tech Ops to have enough time to clear maintenance issues leads to the poor performance. Simply put, B6 chooses to perform badly because their operation looks good on paper (high utilization, lean staffing, etc).



This guy right here.

Now the funny thing is as it was pointed out MINT does better so it proves they can do it but they won’t. They don’t see the value in spending the extra money on planes, turn times, crews, software and such. So you get what you get. They know most people fly JetBlue for vacations and such and figure they will come back anyway.

It has been asked many many times to “leadership” because as employees it’s embarrassing and stressful and we get ATC/weather/ east coast/stay lean/we do well on blue sky days/we aren’t trying to be the leader just in the middle and so on.

They have tried to do better in Boston but it’s like an unfit person buying every exercise program and getting the gear but heading down to get a pizza because they got 300 steps in for the day. They simply are not committed to it.

The goal is EPS and superior margins and if it takes destroying the airline and the employees to get that the “leadership” team is fine with it.

We play airline, others are airlines.

As an employee it’s extremely frustrating. We all or vast majority want JetBlue to be great and do better
But we just get talking points about how they will do stuff. Heck we can’t even get the ground air working most times.

Again this is very easy. Wall St now runs JetBlue and they want their money. I certainly understand that’s the system but the airline can’t keep up and morale has definitely taken a major hit.

But hey we are going to Europe so there is that. The airline has multiple personalities. They can come up with mint and other things but have a hard time functioning day to day.

I’m pretty sure Robin Hayes is on his way out and soon Joanna will be the CEO fun times ahead.
 
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usxguy
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:53 am

tphuang wrote:
usxguy wrote:
I am SO not feeding the trolls, but since when was JetBlue's performance actually good?

Not sure I've ever heard of JetBlue being on time, and not being a basher, but I think the last on-time JetBlue flight I had was from SJU to FLL years ago. Everything else has been 20-45 mins late. Some of the stations have been good about quick turns.

If 3/4 of their flight from JFK are on time, then you have obviously been very unlucky.


Its a mix of JFK/HPN -> Florida and some FLL-> Cali flights. I always build extra time when connecting, so it hasn't impacted me YET. I fly enough that I don't scream/whine when its a 1 hour delay. FWIW my last United flight (out of EWR) was 5 hours late *shrugs*... but what can you do sometimes?

But, one of the other posters is spot on - if OT was a major area of concern for the airline, it wouldn't be operating like this.
xx
 
tphuang
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:08 am

usxguy wrote:
tphuang wrote:
usxguy wrote:
I am SO not feeding the trolls, but since when was JetBlue's performance actually good?

Not sure I've ever heard of JetBlue being on time, and not being a basher, but I think the last on-time JetBlue flight I had was from SJU to FLL years ago. Everything else has been 20-45 mins late. Some of the stations have been good about quick turns.

If 3/4 of their flight from JFK are on time, then you have obviously been very unlucky.


Its a mix of JFK/HPN -> Florida and some FLL-> Cali flights. I always build extra time when connecting, so it hasn't impacted me YET. I fly enough that I don't scream/whine when its a 1 hour delay. FWIW my last United flight (out of EWR) was 5 hours late *shrugs*... but what can you do sometimes?

But, one of the other posters is spot on - if OT was a major area of concern for the airline, it wouldn't be operating like this.


Right, but if stats show they are on time 3/4 of the time out of NYC (with 15 minutes of estimated arrival) and you are late more often than that, then you obviously have been unlucky.

At JFK for this year, they are basically late 1/4 of the time when other airlines are late 1/5 of the time. That's what the official numbers to show. They are more on time this year than AA regional out of JFK. People act like they are always late and the legacy airlines never are.

I have never found them to be less on time in my experience than AA. (Which is probably why you should know rely on anecdotal experience to determine if an airline is on time.) I think DL does better, but I never fly them.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:32 pm

You need to fly them before 9am

Much better then
 
AA94
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Re: Why is JetBlue's On Time Performance so Bad?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:41 pm

It's a combination of factors. JetBlue has much higher utilization than most legacy carriers, so turns are extremely tight to begin with. Then consider that their exposure to ATC and weather programs is significant given their network -- a majority of flights are not only departing from delay-prone airspace, but also heading to delay-prone airspace. This constant jumping between difficult airspace means there is no real relief in sight and no opportunity

Adding block time could be the answer, but this reduces utilization, which has a financial impact. Given Wall Street runs the show, this probably wouldn't sit well.

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