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Aesma
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:33 am

mxaxai wrote:
Also remember that gasoline and diesel as well as electrical power are heavily taxed (up to 60 % of the sales price is taxes). Usually for "ecologic reasons". Meanwhile, Jet-A is tax-free.
I don't think flying should be inherently expensive, but the cost of energy should definitely be comparable for all modes of transportation.


The oil based fuels started being taxed after the oil crisis, to disincentivize their waste, gas guzzler cars, etc. More recently the tune has changed to make it about pollution.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Connections aren't taxed, so I don't see how it would contribute to moving flights from CDG to AMS. Do you think people would rather ride several hours in a train from Paris to AMS to avoid that tax ? And how would that be cheaper than flying directly from CDG ?


That wouldn't do any good since the Netherlands also has plans to impose an aviation tax. However Belgium doesn't, so I could see a number of Dutch and French passengers traveling to Belgium to start their journey from there. Specially if you travel long haul, the country of departure would make a difference and by self-connections you could easily pick the cheapest (untaxed) country to depart from. That way, at most you're paying short haul tax for a long haul haul flight. Having a too high tax would seriously harm the long haul traffic from a country, while at the same time causing growth in another country with a lower tax.


Again, the tax is between 1.5€ and 18€ (for a business flight costing many many times that). You're not going to bother with anything for that little amount, not even think about it.

I agree that this should be an EU wide tax, or even a global one, or alternatively, there should be a global carbon tax on jet fuel. Macron has talked about this, so I expect it might come up in the EU at some point.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
canmau wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Slap airline codes on every train and train station, and let pax connect to intercontinental flights from train to plane. Problem solved.


This is done to some extent in Germany with LH and Deutsche Bahn, I hope it does become more widespread


It's also done on the Thalys that runs between Amsterdam and Paris with a stop in Brussels on the way. Since the train stops at both Amsterdam airport and Paris Charles de Gaulle airport, it's perfect as a feeder and eliminates the need for flights. It's strange to see that France still has so many domestic flights on sectors where trains are available, however I assume they got some kind of legal obligation to fly those routes.


No there is no legal obligation if reasonable ground transport is available.

AF simply wants to feed its international flights. Or sometimes there is a train but it's not fast enough.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Lrockeagle
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:19 am

WaywardMemphian wrote:
Aesma wrote:
This is partly in response to the yellow vests, who are incensed (rightly, in my opinion, and I don't support them at all) that they're paying a tax worth 100% or more on fuel for their cars, but that aircraft are flying using tax free kerosene.

The amount is very small, I doubt it will have any measurable effect on traffic.

Connections aren't taxed, so I don't see how it would contribute to moving flights from CDG to AMS. Do you think people would rather ride several hours in a train from Paris to AMS to avoid that tax ? And how would that be cheaper than flying directly from CDG ?


I just spent 6 weeks in Europe, rented a car 5 different times. After filling up the cars to turn in and paying what I paid, I touch down at XNA and on the way home see that Sam's Club's gas is $2.17 a gal. God Bless America.

Welcome home(Woo Pig!). I drove around Ireland in a little VW a couple weeks ago and paid more to fill it up than my F150 drinks, at about half the tank size
Lrockeagle
14 years ago

I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
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seahawk
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:57 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Hopefully it will and hope fully they will price the Co2 emission fairly in the future. Thee tax would be meaningful if we would talk around 20 Euro for flights in France, 50 Euro for flights in Europe and 100+ Euros for everything else. It is retarded that I pay taxes for the fuel in my car, the fuel used by the bus, the electricity used by the train, but not for the kerosene used by the planes.


You might find it retarded, but when you think about it it's very logical. In aviation, countries are competing with each other and one way of attracting passengers (and therefor boosting the economy) is by having low taxes.

What do you think would happen when France would charge € 100 aviation tax on top of the ticket price on a TATL flights? Would that stop people from traveling? No, but they would travel different. They would take the train to the nearest airport outside France. This could be Brussels, Frankfurt, Zurich, Milan, Barcelona, etc. Then they would fly from there. Ticket price would be similar, however minus the € 100 aviation tax which they keep in their pocket. Because these passengers don't fly from France anymore, it harms the French economy. At the same time it boosts the Belgian, German, Swiss, Italian or Spanish economy.

Aviation taxes don't work, there have been numerous scientific investigations about it and they all have the same outcome. They harm the economy and have zero impact on the environment. Every flight less from one country is one flight more from another.

The Belgian government has already said they will never impose an aviation tax. The reason is obvious, they gain the passengers that other countries lose and it's a big boost to their economy.


Well less flights, mean less pollution, less noise and less need to increase airport capacity. And if people take a 3 hours train ride to get a cheaper 2 hours flight is imho questionable. The economy has been the deciding force for long enough, it is time that the environment is put in focus. The best solution would be a global one or at least an EU wide solution, but as this is not happening I am happy more and more countries are doing their own solution.
 
kimimm19
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:37 am

seahawk wrote:

Well less flights, mean less pollution, less noise and less need to increase airport capacity. And if people take a 3 hours train ride to get a cheaper 2 hours flight is imho questionable. The economy has been the deciding force for long enough, it is time that the environment is put in focus. The best solution would be a global one or at least an EU wide solution, but as this is not happening I am happy more and more countries are doing their own solution.


I think that's getting into more regulation, which I am 100% for.

Regulation could help many things:
-Uniform tax schemes
-Less frequency = larger aircraft = less congestion = less pollution/emissions per person
-a better experience for the customer
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:43 am

seahawk wrote:
Well less flights, mean less pollution, less noise and less need to increase airport capacity. And if people take a 3 hours train ride to get a cheaper 2 hours flight is imho questionable. The economy has been the deciding force for long enough, it is time that the environment is put in focus. The best solution would be a global one or at least an EU wide solution, but as this is not happening I am happy more and more countries are doing their own solution.


Indeed, less flights mean less pollution. However there won't be less flights, so this is useless.

People won't take a 3 hours train ride to get a cheaper 2 hours flight, but they will take a 3 hours train ride to get a cheaper 10 hours flight. Or they take a cheap 2 hours flight to self-connect to another cheap 8-hours flight instead of taking an expensive 10 hours flight.

The only way this could work is if it's implemented globally. Even the EU isn't big enough as you can easily take a short-haul flight to a non-EU country at the edge of the EU and self-connect there. That way you're paying short haul tax for a long haul flight. Any tax difference between countries or groups of countries like the EU will cause such behavior.

Suppose you want to fly from Paris to New York. Under EU regulation, that counts as a long haul flight for which you pay high tax. But then Royal Air Maroc comes up with a solution: you fly short haul from Paris to Casablanca and then on a second ticket from Casablanca to New York. On this solution, you pay low tax on the Paris to Casablanca leg and no tax on the Casablanca to New York leg. That way they can charge less than the high taxed alternative. The result: the EU isn't gaining the tax it's supposed to gain and the environment is more polluted than with a direct flight.

You say you're happy countries are doing their own solution, I'm not. Every study that has been done about it has the same outcome, it causes economic damage and because people are going out of their way to fly cheaper (avoid tax) the environment is polluted more than before. Of course I'm in favor of environment measures that work, but not of measures that don't work. And all of these national or even EU measures, they don't work.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:51 am

SCQ83 wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
I just spent 6 weeks in Europe, rented a car 5 different times. After filling up the cars to turn in and paying what I paid, I touch down at XNA and on the way home see that Sam's Club's gas is $2.17 a gal. God Bless America.


If you were touching down at LAX, SAN or SFO you would not pay $2.17 a gallon.
that is because CA is in increasingly a foreign country and a third world one at that.
Last edited by Bobloblaw on Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
bennett123
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:57 am

PatrickZ80

All very well to want a global agreement.

What do you think is the chance of that happening in your lifetime.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:02 am

william wrote:
So where does the money from this tax go to? How does this "tax" help climate change? Some secret lab working on engines that do not pollute?

It doesn’t do a thing to impact the climate one iota
 
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seahawk
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:06 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Well less flights, mean less pollution, less noise and less need to increase airport capacity. And if people take a 3 hours train ride to get a cheaper 2 hours flight is imho questionable. The economy has been the deciding force for long enough, it is time that the environment is put in focus. The best solution would be a global one or at least an EU wide solution, but as this is not happening I am happy more and more countries are doing their own solution.


Indeed, less flights mean less pollution. However there won't be less flights, so this is useless.

People won't take a 3 hours train ride to get a cheaper 2 hours flight, but they will take a 3 hours train ride to get a cheaper 10 hours flight. Or they take a cheap 2 hours flight to self-connect to another cheap 8-hours flight instead of taking an expensive 10 hours flight.

The only way this could work is if it's implemented globally. Even the EU isn't big enough as you can easily take a short-haul flight to a non-EU country at the edge of the EU and self-connect there. That way you're paying short haul tax for a long haul flight. Any tax difference between countries or groups of countries like the EU will cause such behavior.

Suppose you want to fly from Paris to New York. Under EU regulation, that counts as a long haul flight for which you pay high tax. But then Royal Air Maroc comes up with a solution: you fly short haul from Paris to Casablanca and then on a second ticket from Casablanca to New York. On this solution, you pay low tax on the Paris to Casablanca leg and no tax on the Casablanca to New York leg. That way they can charge less than the high taxed alternative. The result: the EU isn't gaining the tax it's supposed to gain and the environment is more polluted than with a direct flight.

You say you're happy countries are doing their own solution, I'm not. Every study that has been done about it has the same outcome, it causes economic damage and because people are going out of their way to fly cheaper (avoid tax) the environment is polluted more than before. Of course I'm in favor of environment measures that work, but not of measures that don't work. And all of these national or even EU measures, they don't work.


Then you are just waiting for a unicorn. Some nations will always avoid a global agreement for their individual gain. But in the end if you reach a EU wide solution it would already help, because most of the traffic in the EU is within the EU. The airline industry will have to shrink or innovate to survive. Imho the fairest solution would be to tax the fuel directly, as then using a modern plane is an advantage. It is no longer explainable why you pay about 50% tax on car fuel (with a clear indication to increase this rate) and nothing on aviation fuel.
Last edited by seahawk on Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
asdf
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:07 am

mxaxai wrote:
...
Also remember that gasoline and diesel as well as electrical power are heavily taxed (up to 60 % of the sales price is taxes)....


in austria the tax on gas in the moment is USD 2,47 per gallon ...
average price of gas is about USD 5 per gallon
so maybe not 60% but pretty close to that number

netherland and those guys up there have a even higher proportion of tax AFAIK
Last edited by asdf on Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:07 am

A global tax???? Lol. You can see who the Europeans are on this site. No concept of taxation without representation, no concept of national sovereignty
 
bennett123
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:32 am

Clearly you are from the US.

Are you against Global Agreements

Not sure what you propose.

Waiting for the corporate lobbyists to go green will be a long wait.
 
SCQ83
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:52 am

dabsen wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
You do understand that not every one flying LYS-CDG stops in CDG?
Actually, how many pax fly this route only? I wouldn't be surprised if many of them just make a stopover in CDG on their merry way to a further destination. This is simply impractical to take the TGV from Lyon to Paris, then take the plane.


Is it impractical, though? This is actually a good example of what's wrong with the current set-up. There are already more *direct* high-speed trains circulating between Lyon and CDG (that's right, I'm talking about the airport's train station) than there are AF/Hop flights between LYS and CDG. The flights are faster (I'd say about 50 mins), but the trains run from Lyon's main station, which probably saves the average traveller about half an hour of transit time. Obviously, AF is an airline and interested in running flights rather than selling train tickets or coordinating with a train company, but if the environmental costs of the flights were (at least a little) factored into the ticket price, I suspect codesharing would be a no-brainer.

Now, will this tax help bring about a change there? It's not clear to me, as it seems that a LYS-CDG-BOS and a CDG-BOS would be taxed equally.


I agree. Specially considering how far LYS is from Lyon itself (at least for a city its size). The French government should have taxed more those tickets and leave tickets where train does not compete well without taxation.

I doesn't make any sense a LYS-CDG-XXX will not be taxed (connecting flights are not taxed), but a Lille-Biarritz or Lille-Nice (where a train takes forever) is taxed.
 
blandy62
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:57 am

this is just an other tax like the zillion in France on everything. Airlines are complaining but ultimately they will just pass it to the passenger one way or another
 
mxaxai
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:31 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Even the EU isn't big enough as you can easily take a short-haul flight to a non-EU country at the edge of the EU and self-connect there. That way you're paying short haul tax for a long haul flight. Any tax difference between countries or groups of countries like the EU will cause such behavior.

There are already tax differences. Income tax, value-added tax, "normal" fuel taxes, etc. Further, regions have different levels of employment salary and airport handling fees. All of these create uneven playing fields that make certain countries more desirable for companies.

Yet, only the ME3 + TK have been really able to take advantage of that. And even then, passengers choose them not only because of price but also for schedule and comfort. Very few passengers are willing to self-connect, most passengers will even pay extra to fly nonstop. The largest effect of high taxes would be a reduction in short-haul flying (too expensive for anyone but a few business travellers) and a general reduction of average flight distances. People would rather fly to the beach in Florida, or at the mediterranean than in Indonesia.

Also, a fuel tax would put pressure on airlines to choose fuel-efficient aircraft. (Something that the planned fee-per-emplanement model doesn't really affect)
 
smartplane
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:04 pm

If CORSIA targets are not met, fuel or other taxes are likely. Even if met, aviation fuel will likely be taxed. At this stage, voluntary targets will only be met if there is a global recession.
 
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DL747400
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:04 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Slap airline codes on every train and train station, and let pax connect to intercontinental flights from train to plane. Problem solved.


The problem with this proposal is that very few European airports have seamless connections from plane to regional or intercity rail. In most cases, you are taking rail or ground transportation from airport to a centralized railway terminal closer to the city center before you can connect to the regional or national railway system. It's a bit like flying into LCY, then having to get yourself to LHR for an intercontinental flight.
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FluidFlow
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:15 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
A global tax???? Lol. You can see who the Europeans are on this site. No concept of taxation without representation, no concept of national sovereignty


Right at this time the US is the champion of taxation without representation, I think together with Somalia. Anyway my friend has to pay US-taxes without living there and actually has no one representing him in the house or senate.

In about 3 weeks no one will even realize he or she pays 1.5€ on his ticket, because it will not be stated anywhere I guess and ticket prices vary more than 1.5€ from day to day so everyone will forget about it. Tax on gas/diesel you see at the gas station, 1.5€ on a flight ticket is invisible and this is an outcry for nothing.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:40 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
A global tax???? Lol. You can see who the Europeans are on this site. No concept of taxation without representation, no concept of national sovereignty


Right at this time the US is the champion of taxation without representation, I think together with Somalia. Anyway my friend has to pay US-taxes without living there and actually has no one representing him in the house or senate.

In about 3 weeks no one will even realize he or she pays 1.5€ on his ticket, because it will not be stated anywhere I guess and ticket prices vary more than 1.5€ from day to day so everyone will forget about it. Tax on gas/diesel you see at the gas station, 1.5€ on a flight ticket is invisible and this is an outcry for nothing.

Where does your friend live? Expats do pay income taxes but can also vote absentee. I don’t think Somalia has income taxes. Maybe im wrong
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:45 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Clearly you are from the US.

Are you against Global Agreements

Not sure what you propose.

Waiting for the corporate lobbyists to go green will be a long wait.

Yes I’m from the USA and yes I’m against global agreements because most Europeans end up not living up to their end of the agreement while the USA is expected to. See Kyoto. Europe is the adult child living in the parent’s basement refusing to get a job, UK excepted. At least they get a partime job.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:55 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
A global tax???? Lol. You can see who the Europeans are on this site. No concept of taxation without representation, no concept of national sovereignty


Right at this time the US is the champion of taxation without representation, I think together with Somalia. Anyway my friend has to pay US-taxes without living there and actually has no one representing him in the house or senate.

In about 3 weeks no one will even realize he or she pays 1.5€ on his ticket, because it will not be stated anywhere I guess and ticket prices vary more than 1.5€ from day to day so everyone will forget about it. Tax on gas/diesel you see at the gas station, 1.5€ on a flight ticket is invisible and this is an outcry for nothing.

Where does your friend live? Expats do pay income taxes but can also vote absentee. I don’t think Somalia has income taxes. Maybe im wrong


In Switzerland. To be fair he might actually be able to vote but it seems is a lot of work. He was born in Germany to US-Parents and never lived in the US. Next time I see him I ask him if he could get registered in the State where his parents are registered.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:03 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Suppose you want to fly from Paris to New York. Under EU regulation, that counts as a long haul flight for which you pay high tax. But then Royal Air Maroc comes up with a solution: you fly short haul from Paris to Casablanca and then on a second ticket from Casablanca to New York. On this solution, you pay low tax on the Paris to Casablanca leg and no tax on the Casablanca to New York leg. That way they can charge less than the high taxed alternative. The result: the EU isn't gaining the tax it's supposed to gain and the environment is more polluted than with a direct flight.

The tax is based on domestic and intra-European flights (1.5 & 9 Euro), and international flights (3 & 8 Euro).
So, Paris-Casablanca will be taxed at 3 or 8 Euro, same for Paris-New York. You won't gain anything.
 
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GCT64
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:22 pm

SamYeager2016 wrote:
You only have to look at the UK to see what happens once an aviation tax has been introduced. It's just so tempting for finance ministers to keep ramping the rate up and extending its reach.


Interestingly despite the UK's relatively (to other EU countries) punitive APD, it doesn't seem to have really affected air travel to/from the UK or airline's desire to operate flights there.
Of course, the French people should be more concerned that €1.50 today will quickly become €15.00 once the government sees that it can get away with increasing it with few complaints.
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leghorn
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:32 pm

GCT64 wrote:
Interestingly despite the UK's relatively (to other EU countries) punitive APD, it doesn't seem to have really affected air travel to/from the UK or airline's desire to operate flights there.

Why do you think Dublin Airport is seeing increasing numbers of transatlantic passengers.
Why do you think that the two Belfast Airports are struggling.
Why have Norwegian Airlines kept Dublin routes but not ones from Edinburgh.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:42 pm

leghorn wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
Interestingly despite the UK's relatively (to other EU countries) punitive APD, it doesn't seem to have really affected air travel to/from the UK or airline's desire to operate flights there.

Why do you think Dublin Airport is seeing increasing numbers of transatlantic passengers.
Why do you think that the two Belfast Airports are struggling.
Why have Norwegian Airlines kept Dublin routes but not ones from Edinburgh.


DUB is growing because LON airports have been capacity-constrained for decades. It was discussed extensively that BA's purchase of EI was a strategic attempt to grown connecting traffic.

Belfast airports struggle because it's Belfast.

It's hard to argue that Norwegian knows what they're doing day to day. If you want to use Norwegian as an indicator of what's right, prepare to be ridiculed.

UK APD is, long haul, a magnitude greater than this new French tax.
 
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GCT64
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:49 pm

leghorn wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
Interestingly despite the UK's relatively (to other EU countries) punitive APD, it doesn't seem to have really affected air travel to/from the UK or airline's desire to operate flights there.

Why do you think Dublin Airport is seeing increasing numbers of transatlantic passengers.
Why do you think that the two Belfast Airports are struggling.
Why have Norwegian Airlines kept Dublin routes but not ones from Edinburgh.


One can always find a few examples to contradict a statement, however I said "really affected" (i.e. significantly) and BFS/BHD leakage to DUB is a special case (as it's the UK's only land border and not that long a driving distance).
Overall, however, look at all the extra routes to China that have started in the last year or so. QR's and EK's increasing service to EDI, AZ starting EDI-MXP, FR starting EDI-LUX and EDI-BLL, BE increasing EDI-LHR. The start-up of flights to Carlisle etc. etc. there's lots of counter examples to the small list above.
The biggest indicator is the pent-up demand for a 3rd runway at LHR (including Virgin's ambition for a lot more slots at LHR).
None of the big picture stuff indicates an UK air travel market in a decline caused by APD.
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leghorn
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:50 pm

Dublin is growning in part because it is cheaper to fly to the states through it than from a UK airport.
Belfast struggles in part because the flight prices to the same destinations are cheaper from Dublin and airlines don't believe they'll fill planes at the price the need to make a profit from Belfast.
Belfast has three routes to France and they'll have another 3 euro thrown on to the price of tickets as a result of this.
Norwegian knows enough to keep the full planes flying and the planes from Dublin are full because they can sell the planes cheaper and passengers from the far side of the border are a proportion of the passengers on each flight.
APD is bad and since its abolition passenger numbers in and out of Ireland have increased dramatically with a huge knock-on benefit to the wider Irish economy.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:33 pm

This is nothing new as many countries including the US charges some sort of tax or surcharge.
 
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par13del
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:52 pm

seahawk wrote:
It is no longer explainable why you pay about 50% tax on car fuel (with a clear indication to increase this rate) and nothing on aviation fuel.

Well lets see, one can always charge your local airlines a aviation tax and the international airlines serving your country none, since international travel is governed by international treaties. It does however create the option of only local airlines using your airports if you can get the foreign countries to give up their bi-laterals, say by offering tax breaks, adjustment to tax shelters, etc etc etc. essentially a can of worms.
Also on taxes, how many train networks were built by taxing other forms of transportation to make trains "cheaper", or giving car companies and citizens tax incentives to go diesel, only to turn around 20 years later to say diesel is a "polluter" and those users must now be taxed higher to get them off the road, same principle as bait and switch.
Using ones tax powers is easy to implement a stated goal.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:19 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

Right at this time the US is the champion of taxation without representation, I think together with Somalia. Anyway my friend has to pay US-taxes without living there and actually has no one representing him in the house or senate.

In about 3 weeks no one will even realize he or she pays 1.5€ on his ticket, because it will not be stated anywhere I guess and ticket prices vary more than 1.5€ from day to day so everyone will forget about it. Tax on gas/diesel you see at the gas station, 1.5€ on a flight ticket is invisible and this is an outcry for nothing.

Where does your friend live? Expats do pay income taxes but can also vote absentee. I don’t think Somalia has income taxes. Maybe im wrong


In Switzerland. To be fair he might actually be able to vote but it seems is a lot of work. He was born in Germany to US-Parents and never lived in the US. Next time I see him I ask him if he could get registered in the State where his parents are registered.

He shouldn’t be paying US taxes or even filing. He should renounce his US citizenship.
 
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GCT64
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:20 pm

leghorn wrote:
Dublin is growning in part because it is cheaper to fly to the states through it than from a UK airport.


The UK APD on LHR-DUB-JFK is normally exactly the same as on LHR-JFK (or APD on EDI-LHR-BOS is the same as EDI-DUB-BOS) unless you buy totally separate tickets, so I don't think it is generally true to make this statement.

UK APD rules:

A passenger’s final destination is where their journey ends. If the journey is made of one flight the final destination is where that flight ends. If the journey includes more than one flight, and the flights are connected, the final destination is where the last flight ends.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/air-passeng ... ed-flights
Flown in: A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..55 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
Olddog
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:21 pm

But renouncing US citizenship is a pain in he ass process and very expensive too....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
Olddog
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:22 pm

On the topic, I very much doubt that tax is voted by the parliament next october.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:35 pm

Olddog wrote:
On the topic, I very much doubt that tax is voted by the parliament next october.

Of course they will vote it; they just obey blindly to the boss sitting at l'Elysee...
 
YIMBY
Posts: 596
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:05 pm

Aesma wrote:
I agree that this should be an EU wide tax, or even a global one, or alternatively, there should be a global carbon tax on jet fuel. Macron has talked about this, so I expect it might come up in the EU at some point.


I second this. There are serious talks in EU member countries and among members of the EU parliament about EU wide tax on aviation, whether on fuel or departures. EU wide tax would be a giant step forward, if well established (unfortunately not all taxes are that well planned and implemented). It will not happen overnight, though, as there are other more urgent issues, but some politicians may want to set this just to show that EU can do something effectively.

EU might encourage other countries to follow, Norway and Switzerland might likely do it. To help this, EU might impose higher departure taxes to countries not setting any carbon taxes.

Given that most flights of EU origin are into other EU countries and for long haul flights there are not that many alternative options, the European wide tax would be very effective. Nevertheless, I do not believe that <10 % tax would not have substantial effect on total flying, but >10 % tax might be relevant. Not only reducing the number of flights, an effective tax would give incentives to select the flight with least emissions (shortest route, propeller plane).

Would it have effect if airlines were obliged to tell explicitly to each customer the amount of carbon dioxide equivalent, first a statistical estimate when offering the flight and then a calculation after the flight using true data.
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 1216
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:50 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
william wrote:
So where does the money from this tax go to? How does this "tax" help climate change? Some secret lab working on engines that do not pollute?

It doesn’t do a thing to impact the climate one iota


Just more funding for social give away programs and public union exortion demands. They may have that golden goose egg of free health care but it ain't free, it it just milked from other teets.
 
leghorn
Posts: 868
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:48 pm

GCT64 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Dublin is growning in part because it is cheaper to fly to the states through it than from a UK airport.


The UK APD on LHR-DUB-JFK is normally exactly the same as on LHR-JFK (or APD on EDI-LHR-BOS is the same as EDI-DUB-BOS) unless you buy totally separate tickets, so I don't think it is generally true to make this statement.

UK APD rules:

A passenger’s final destination is where their journey ends. If the journey is made of one flight the final destination is where that flight ends. If the journey includes more than one flight, and the flights are connected, the final destination is where the last flight ends.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/air-passeng ... ed-flights

The word is out. A lot of them are self transferring through Dublin.
 
afgeneral
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:43 pm

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:07 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
They should do this in a meaningful way within the EU, not country for country. Then you are creating a level playing field again.


Note that France isn't taxing aviation fuel - it is taxing passenger air travel. That fuel isn't taxed is a testament (good or bad) to the power of international air lobbies. France can do this on its own - if it waited for the EU you could be sure some retrograde, coal-loving member of the 28 would veto it.


Have you considered that some countries may not consider this tax to be a good idea because it has no high speed rail, land routes are impractical or it is an island? They don't necessarily have to be retrograde & coal-loving.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:46 pm

leghorn wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
UK APD rules:

A passenger’s final destination is where their journey ends. If the journey is made of one flight the final destination is where that flight ends. If the journey includes more than one flight, and the flights are connected, the final destination is where the last flight ends.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/air-passeng ... ed-flights

The word is out. A lot of them are self transferring through Dublin.


Very true. If the tax is higher when two flights are connected, all you have to do is disconnect them from each other to save on taxes. When Dublin - New York is sold on a separate ticket, it is not subject to UK APD. Getting from the UK to Dublin is easy, plenty of flights that cost almost nothing. Those flights are only subject to short haul APD.

Connected flights are slowly becoming a thing of the past, passengers mix and match their own connections. That undermines the APD rules.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:57 pm

afgeneral wrote:
Have you considered that some countries may not consider this tax to be a good idea because it has no high speed rail, land routes are impractical or it is an island? They don't necessarily have to be retrograde & coal-loving.


Indeed, I could see Greece pulling a veto on an EU aviation tax for that reason. Greece is a country of islands and it's mainland is very mountainous. There are hardly any railroad lines in Greece and none of them are HSR. However the whole country is connected by air, every island that has a bit of a meaning has an airport and that's a whole lot of islands. Ground transport would be ferries, which are slow and also polluting.

Many eastern European countries also aren't very fond of the idea of an aviation tax. Hungary, Romania or Bulgaria might join Greece in the veto.
 
Curiousflyer
Posts: 543
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:19 am

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:34 pm

hpff wrote:
The tax is minimal and probably necessary to offset carbon costs. Based on Germany’s implementation, I’d be surprised if very many people changed their travel plans to save the tax.


Yes, in fact, I think low-cost airlines will suffer more from it. AF's target market will barely notice. It will hurt over time as it is likely to increase, unless airlines work better on fuel alternatives.
As for LYS-CDG, I am flying this next month with a connection to JFK, after having extensively researched the possibility of taking a train instead, it did not make sense. LYS does not have a market for direct long-haul flights, and it does not have a market for frequent trains to CDG... so in many cases flying to CDG is the best option.
This is just an example, AF does not run domestic lines unless they are needed as feeders or profitable (NCE and TLS must be, train is too long and the market is large) or needed for some market share reason (if AF does not offer LYS-CDG-rest of the world, people will fly LYS-FRA-rest of the world). Only some lines are subsidized, e.g. to Corsica because it is an island, but most lines are just competitive. I think the subsidized lines, for which there is no alternative, will be exempt from that tax.
 
afgeneral
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:43 pm

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:36 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
afgeneral wrote:
Have you considered that some countries may not consider this tax to be a good idea because it has no high speed rail, land routes are impractical or it is an island? They don't necessarily have to be retrograde & coal-loving.


Indeed, I could see Greece pulling a veto on an EU aviation tax for that reason. Greece is a country of islands and it's mainland is very mountainous. There are hardly any railroad lines in Greece and none of them are HSR. However the whole country is connected by air, every island that has a bit of a meaning has an airport and that's a whole lot of islands. Ground transport would be ferries, which are slow and also polluting.

Many eastern European countries also aren't very fond of the idea of an aviation tax. Hungary, Romania or Bulgaria might join Greece in the veto.


Plus I am quite sure you can save a lot of fuel by flying Greece to Southern Italy than taking a train all around to Slovenia or Austria.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:06 pm

ozglobal wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Perhaps BOS-CDG-XYD is faster than BOS-CDG-LYS?


I think part of these new taxes in Europe will be set to help high-speed trains.

Most high speed lines are underused (compared to maximum capacity) and lose money. The EU also requires now that HSL have competition with private operators (this is already quite extended in Italy and somehow in Germany, but there are no private operators yet in Spain or France). So a good way to make trains more competitive is making flights more expensive. They can always play the ecologic argument so no discussion about those new taxes.


'Most high speed lines are underused (compared to maximum capacity) and lose money.' Care to provide your sources for this sweeping statement? Care to explain why Air France's domestic network is underused and loss making. It is because most corners of France are now connected by 300km/h HSR and it is usually much faster and much more pleasant to go by train, so why fly? Some city pairs no longer even have flights. e.g CDG - BRU. where the TGV travel time city centre to city centre is 1:18hrs. In Western Europe, everyone prefers HSR city to city where it exists and is under 4 hrs.


SN operates two daily flights on CDG-BRU, mainly for connecting traffic, but bookable to anyone.

High speed rail is not always much more pleasant. Wildlife or one of the daily suicides are all it takes to disrupt a quarter of the network for the rest of the day.
The comfort also leaves a lot to be desired: the stations don't offer enough places to sit while waiting, the interiors are tired and not always functional nor comfortable, restrooms usually disgusting and there is not enough room to store your luggage.
Fares are not always cheap and the environmental impact is not always smaller.
Parking at or around the stations is not simple and getting to the station during rush hour is just as inconvenient as driving to an airport located outside the city.

Travel times are generally reduced, but if you're crossing France from Lille to the South, you don't save time at all vs. flying because of the many stops and lower speed.

There are advantages but just as many disadvantages.
For distances of more than 500km, the airplane is king.
 
Toinou
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:21 am

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:03 am

DL747400 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Slap airline codes on every train and train station, and let pax connect to intercontinental flights from train to plane. Problem solved.


The problem with this proposal is that very few European airports have seamless connections from plane to regional or intercity rail. In most cases, you are taking rail or ground transportation from airport to a centralized railway terminal closer to the city center before you can connect to the regional or national railway system. It's a bit like flying into LCY, then having to get yourself to LHR for an intercontinental flight.


Few but not the least important ones : AMS, BRU, CDG, FRA, ZRH are just examples...
 
kimimm19
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:20 am

afgeneral wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
They should do this in a meaningful way within the EU, not country for country. Then you are creating a level playing field again.


Note that France isn't taxing aviation fuel - it is taxing passenger air travel. That fuel isn't taxed is a testament (good or bad) to the power of international air lobbies. France can do this on its own - if it waited for the EU you could be sure some retrograde, coal-loving member of the 28 would veto it.


Have you considered that some countries may not consider this tax to be a good idea because it has no high speed rail, land routes are impractical or it is an island? They don't necessarily have to be retrograde & coal-loving.


Sure but if a tax like this can be invested into at least eco airport improvements like having them powered by wind/solar, putting more greenery around or in the airport, then how would that be a bad thing...

Toinou wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Slap airline codes on every train and train station, and let pax connect to intercontinental flights from train to plane. Problem solved.


The problem with this proposal is that very few European airports have seamless connections from plane to regional or intercity rail. In most cases, you are taking rail or ground transportation from airport to a centralized railway terminal closer to the city center before you can connect to the regional or national railway system. It's a bit like flying into LCY, then having to get yourself to LHR for an intercontinental flight.


Few but not the least important ones : AMS, BRU, CDG, FRA, ZRH are just examples...


However, in at least two of those cases, it's pretty seamless integration..
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5202
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:26 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
the interiors are tired and not always functional nor comfortable, restrooms usually disgusting and there is not enough room to store your luggage.


That says more about French high-speed trains which don't know the maintenance word. I agree TGV can be quite unpleasant and disgusting. I recall last year we were stopped for one hour in a TGV because they were waiting for the police in a station in the middle of nowhere to remove 3 people who were stealing from luggage. A complete joke. But it is also somehow extendable to many airports in France (e.g. CDG has a major homeless problem).

High-speed trains in other European countries like Italy, Spain or Germany are more than often comfortable and clean. Even newer trains in Eastern Europe I have taken (e.g. Poland) are perfectly fine.
 
mxaxai
Topic Author
Posts: 1067
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:24 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
High speed rail is not always much more pleasant. Wildlife or one of the daily suicides are all it takes to disrupt a quarter of the network for the rest of the day.
The comfort also leaves a lot to be desired: the stations don't offer enough places to sit while waiting, the interiors are tired and not always functional nor comfortable, restrooms usually disgusting and there is not enough room to store your luggage.

Those points are all true but they just as easily apply to aviation and airports (except the suicides).

A tiny piece of wildlife or debris can ruin your day. Seats are generally uncomfortable, personal space is extremely limited, aircraft restrooms are unpleasant and tiny, and you cannot bring your own food but have to buy the ridiculously overpriced stuff. Also no (or only expensive) wifi on board. I find rail preferable on trips up to 5 hours.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6059
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:09 am

seahawk wrote:

Hopefully it will and hope fully they will price the Co2 emission fairly in the future. Thee tax would be meaningful if we would talk around 20 Euro for flights in France, 50 Euro for flights in Europe and 100+ Euros for everything else.


Just wait till Germany commits economic suicide by electing a Green genossin Kanzlerin.

Aesma wrote:
I agree that this should be an EU wide tax, or even a global one, or alternatively, there should be a global carbon tax on jet fuel. Macron has talked about this, so I expect it might come up in the EU at some point.


Even more taxes proposed by France??? Color me surprised. :roll:
Here's an idea: let's quit the EP Strasbourg nonsense first, then review the who Common Agriculture Policy to reduce thousands od trucks belching diesel fumes driving from one end od the EU to another carrying subsidized agro products and then lets see.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11626
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Actually the CAP helps local production, I don't see how doing away with it would reduce transportation.

Once Belgium has finally broken up and Wallonia becomes French again, I'm sure we can do away with Strasbourg :d

I don't think economists have found a better way than carbon pricing to tackle climate change, but I welcome contradiction.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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par13del
Posts: 8648
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: France to charge aviation tax

Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:55 pm

Aesma wrote:
I don't think economists have found a better way than carbon pricing to tackle climate change, but I welcome contradiction.

That may be the problem, as long as economist are the one's, finance (money) is the key, the environment etc is just another cause to further their industry.
Just a contra thought.

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