ozglobal
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:14 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
ozglobal wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:

I think part of these new taxes in Europe will be set to help high-speed trains.

Most high speed lines are underused (compared to maximum capacity) and lose money. The EU also requires now that HSL have competition with private operators (this is already quite extended in Italy and somehow in Germany, but there are no private operators yet in Spain or France). So a good way to make trains more competitive is making flights more expensive. They can always play the ecologic argument so no discussion about those new taxes.


'Most high speed lines are underused (compared to maximum capacity) and lose money.' Care to provide your sources for this sweeping statement? Care to explain why Air France's domestic network is underused and loss making. It is because most corners of France are now connected by 300km/h HSR and it is usually much faster and much more pleasant to go by train, so why fly? Some city pairs no longer even have flights. e.g CDG - BRU. where the TGV travel time city centre to city centre is 1:18hrs. In Western Europe, everyone prefers HSR city to city where it exists and is under 4 hrs.


SN operates two daily flights on CDG-BRU, mainly for connecting traffic, but bookable to anyone.

High speed rail is not always much more pleasant. Wildlife or one of the daily suicides are all it takes to disrupt a quarter of the network for the rest of the day.
The comfort also leaves a lot to be desired: the stations don't offer enough places to sit while waiting, the interiors are tired and not always functional nor comfortable, restrooms usually disgusting and there is not enough room to store your luggage.
Fares are not always cheap and the environmental impact is not always smaller.
Parking at or around the stations is not simple and getting to the station during rush hour is just as inconvenient as driving to an airport located outside the city.

Travel times are generally reduced, but if you're crossing France from Lille to the South, you don't save time at all vs. flying because of the many stops and lower speed.

There are advantages but just as many disadvantages.
For distances of more than 500km, the airplane is king.


We obviously have different experiences. I live in Paris and will alway prefer the high speed train of air travel for Paris to London, Amsterdam, Marseille, Bordeaux, Strasbourg, Brussels, Cologne and Zurich.

For medium and long haul, obviously, I take the plane and then the nasty bits at both ends of the trip are diluted by the journey's overall travel time.

I have had very few bad experiences on HSR in Western Europe in the 17 years I've lived here. I flew to Prague early this week and went to London yesterday by Eurostar. The latter was silent, I had lounges at both ends, I was served decent meals and got 2 hours work done with space and laptop power, without being told what to do every 30 seconds by the cabin crew. We seem to live in different worlds.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
TObound
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:17 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
A global tax???? Lol. You can see who the Europeans are on this site. No concept of taxation without representation, no concept of national sovereignty


And you can clearly see who climate change denying Americans are.....
 
ozglobal
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:32 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
ozglobal wrote:
'Most high speed lines are underused (compared to maximum capacity) and lose money.' Care to provide your sources for this sweeping statement? Care to explain why Air France's domestic network is underused and loss making. It is because most corners of France are now connected by 300km/h HSR and it is usually much faster and much more pleasant to go by train, so why fly? Some city pairs no longer even have flights. e.g CDG - BRU. where the TGV travel time city centre to city centre is 1:18hrs. In Western Europe, everyone prefers HSR city to city where it exists and is under 4 hrs.


About 2/3 of France's HSL lose money:


HSR is public infrastructure, like bridges, highways, irrigation channels and other massive public works. They are not justified on the basis that they are a profitable private business, but on the basis that they lay the foundations of prosperous society and economy. If they payback 10 fold to the overall economy through enabling opportunity then I'm fine for them to lose some money in the narrow sense of the term used here. Japan, China and Germany are not decaying socialist states, but 3 of the world's leading economies and they all have invested massively in HSR because they believe it is worth it. I agree whole heartedly with them and completely disagree with those who oppose HSR on the basis of a narrow ideas of ROI. They simply don't get it.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
TObound
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:59 pm

ozglobal wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
ozglobal wrote:
'Most high speed lines are underused (compared to maximum capacity) and lose money.' Care to provide your sources for this sweeping statement? Care to explain why Air France's domestic network is underused and loss making. It is because most corners of France are now connected by 300km/h HSR and it is usually much faster and much more pleasant to go by train, so why fly? Some city pairs no longer even have flights. e.g CDG - BRU. where the TGV travel time city centre to city centre is 1:18hrs. In Western Europe, everyone prefers HSR city to city where it exists and is under 4 hrs.


About 2/3 of France's HSL lose money:


HSR is public infrastructure, like bridges, highways, irrigation channels and other massive public works. They are not justified on the basis that they are a profitable private business, but on the basis that they lay the foundations of prosperous society and economy. If they payback 10 fold to the overall economy through enabling opportunity then I'm fine for them to lose some money in the narrow sense of the term used here. Japan, China and Germany are not decaying socialist states, but 3 of the world's leading economies and they all have invested massively in HSR because they believe it is worth it. I agree whole heartedly with them and completely disagree with those who oppose HSR on the basis of a narrow ideas of ROI. They simply don't get it.


It's always interesting to hear Americans (who benefit from a massively subidized road and air network) complain about rail not being profitable. Canada does not subsidize airports. And you get to see the true cost of aviation here. If Americans had to pay our ticket prices, I suspect there would be far more support for rail in their country.
 
KD5MDK
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:23 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
UK APD rules:

A passenger’s final destination is where their journey ends. If the journey is made of one flight the final destination is where that flight ends. If the journey includes more than one flight, and the flights are connected, the final destination is where the last flight ends.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/air-passeng ... ed-flights

The word is out. A lot of them are self transferring through Dublin.


Very true. If the tax is higher when two flights are connected, all you have to do is disconnect them from each other to save on taxes. When Dublin - New York is sold on a separate ticket, it is not subject to UK APD. Getting from the UK to Dublin is easy, plenty of flights that cost almost nothing. Those flights are only subject to short haul APD.

Connected flights are slowly becoming a thing of the past, passengers mix and match their own connections. That undermines the APD rules.


Do you have a citation to prove this with statistics?
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:31 am

TObound wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
A global tax???? Lol. You can see who the Europeans are on this site. No concept of taxation without representation, no concept of national sovereignty


And you can clearly see who climate change denying Americans are.....

Stop it, the traffic in and around the big citiea on Europe is atrocious. Tje US had steadily decreased our emissions and we don't need senseless climate treaties to do it. Tell when the Euros stop importing stuff from the smokestacks called China and India.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/20 ... emissions/


Besides the climate on this rock has constantly been changing since day 1. The Euro gov'ts love Climate Change as it's another means to tax the snot out of their people. See this tax as another example.
 
bennett123
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:01 am

Are you saying that the US do not import anything from India and China?.
 
anrec80
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:28 am

Europeans as usual. They don't know what and whom else to rip off - sorry - tax. As if 50% plus income isn't enough.
 
anrec80
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:30 am

KD5MDK wrote:
Do you have a citation to prove this with statistics?


Most people will not find savings being worth it. However, travel sites like Kayak and even Orbitz will find separate tickets that are cost-optimized, and they will work for some.
 
avier
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:35 am

anrec80 wrote:
Europeans as usual. They don't know what and whom else to rip off - sorry - tax. As if 50% plus income isn't enough.

True. And since this tax is going to be levied on every pax (domestic/int'l), they are going to be earning a lot from overseas pax more so. Since France already has an extremely high footfall of overseas visitors in its country. So a nice way to milk them and raise money through them. Their locals are not productive enough in such countries to keep their economy going, so next step is milk the foreigners.
 
bennett123
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:42 am

Nothing forcing you to go to France.

Airlines flying to, (and therefore having operations) in the US are subject to US laws and taxes.
 
Olddog
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:45 am

As I said up-thread that tax is not voted yet. We will see in October if it is voted.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
mig17
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:29 am

A french only tax is just going to kill AF a little more ... The french gouvernment (mine ...) do not understand that airtravel doesn't work like other business when you rise TVA.
Here AF hub is going to be affected while other airlines will only pay on a few flights not really affecting the network.
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Aesma
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:52 pm

Alternative proposals are to tax kerosene, or to just ban flights that can be made by train. I'm sure this tax will be far less disruptive.

anrec80 : the US has no problem imposing its laws all over the world, like with the Iranian sanctions, why the surprise when others are doing the same ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:00 am

Aesma,
What law are you talking about. There is no law requiring sanctions. It is a matter of immediate survival. Did Iran threaten to nuke your country?

As for an aviation tax, go ahead, keep shooting your foot. It’ll stop hurting you, eventually.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
bennett123
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:15 am

When did Iran threaten to Nuke the US?.
 
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ro1960
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:33 am

SCQ83 wrote:
ozglobal wrote:
'Most high speed lines are underused (compared to maximum capacity) and lose money.' Care to provide your sources for this sweeping statement? Care to explain why Air France's domestic network is underused and loss making. It is because most corners of France are now connected by 300km/h HSR and it is usually much faster and much more pleasant to go by train, so why fly? Some city pairs no longer even have flights. e.g CDG - BRU. where the TGV travel time city centre to city centre is 1:18hrs. In Western Europe, everyone prefers HSR city to city where it exists and is under 4 hrs.


About 2/3 of France's HSL lose money:

https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marc ... es-1234833

In Spain all of them :)

https://elpais.com/economia/2015/03/26/ ... 11155.html

So they need more passengers and taking them from planes is a logical step. It is also a way to save money and maximise resources. It doesn't make a lot of sense to extend terminals in Spain or France when many of those passengers can take a train.

Btw Brussels Airlines still flies BRU-CDG.


HSL is not underused. It just costs more to operate. The network use fees charged by SNCF Réseau keep rising. Train tickets to cities like Nice or Toulouse are more expensive than flying.
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bennett123
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:54 am

Come to think of it, since when were there no laws requiring sanctions against Iran?.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:47 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Aviation taxes don't work, there have been numerous scientific investigations about it and they all have the same outcome. They harm the economy and have zero impact on the environment. Every flight less from one country is one flight more from another.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I remember being a little angry when forced to pay 45 EUR Dutch aviation tax on a 299 EUR Icelandair return flight to Canada ten years ago. But I didn't bother to travel to another country to start my journey from there and avoid the tax. It was just 45 EUR less to spend in Canada.

I know many Dutch passengers started to use Belgian and German airports that summer instead of the local ones. But the majority kept flying from Schiphol.
 
AirwayBill
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:08 am

The EM govt and most previous ones are the kings of inconsistency. For years, they have been slowly killing the French rail network, removing train frequencies, cutting off smaller cities from basic railway links and accelarating their demise all in the name of profitability, denying basic public transportation service, promoting an all-road society with diesel cars and coaches taking over the job of trains, removing night trains, shaming national rail workers publically and pointing fingers at them for being the ultimate reason of the financial burden of the nation (even though the SNCF debt mainly comes from centralised non reasonable political decisions)...list goes on.

And now they want to introduce a new tax on road and air services to heal the railway infrastructure that they have been recklessly destroying for the past decades? Puh-lease. This is just a pretext to raise more money through a 387482th botched tax measure.

Even on an ecological standpoint it does NOT add up. The EM party has never made it a priority through actual actions, despite Emmanuel's grand "make our planet great again" PR bs and usual greenwashing.

Oh, and best part, AF screaming about subventions... better not bite the hand that feeds.
 
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PW100
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:45 am

WaywardMemphian wrote:
Besides the climate on this rock has constantly been changing since day 1. The Euro gov'ts love Climate Change as it's another means to tax the snot out of their people. See this tax as another example.


Of course climate has been changing from day 1. I haven't seen anyone denying that.
Are you claiming that the rate of climate change we are seeing now is a normal rate?

The problem is, we (mankind) are pumping massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. The earth has taken hundreds of millions of years to take that out of the atmosphere and store it into fossil fields (deep) in the earth. And now, we are digging deep into those storage fields and through burning process freeing all that stored CO2 and releasing it into atmosphere.

And where nature took the better part of a half a billion years to store that carbon, we are releasing it in a matter of a couple of hundred years. Which in earth macro geological terms is an blink of an eye. Expecting such activity not have an effect on climate is beyond comprehension. It's beyond denial. It’s beyond Einstein’s sanity.
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Aesma
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:59 pm

AirwayBill : Emmanuel Macron has "destroyed" the rail network in two years of power ? No small feat !

A rail network needs lots of investment and maintenance, that's true. Now if employees work few hours, and few years in their lives, despite good salaries, benefits and pensions, surely that must cost nothing ? Or maybe if you put that much money there, you don't have enough left for investment ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
AirwayBill
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:26 pm

Aesma wrote:
AirwayBill : Emmanuel Macron has "destroyed" the rail network in two years of power ? No small feat !

A rail network needs lots of investment and maintenance, that's true. Now if employees work few hours, and few years in their lives, despite good salaries, benefits and pensions, surely that must cost nothing ? Or maybe if you put that much money there, you don't have enough left for investment ?


Not just EM, it took more than 40 years of poor railway management by megalomaniac politics who put their agenda ahead of reason (eg all regions want expensive TGVs), allowing faraminous debts to cumulate government change after government change. And no one wants to bear responsibility for it, which is the very fundamental of politics. The controversy about "unjustified" perks of French railway workers is a huge smoke screen, yet the whole debate about the SNCF reforms evolved around this specific topic, with a typical scapegoat media strategy to get away with years of incompetent public policy. (and many French indeed bought into the "bad public workers, they do nothing, get free travel and can retire at 40, while we struggle to feed our children" rhetoric. Which I find very sad.).

Now they're using the fruit of their own incompetence as a tool to throw discredit on the SNCF, "oh look at how bad it is, such a huge amount of debt, how could this happen (duh)", and carry out tough reforms that should not have been necessary if they didn't mess around for decades in the first place. As the idiom says, they spit in the air and say that it's raining (cracher en l'air et dire qu'il pleut) ! It is a huge farce, really.

It pains me to see the direction this is taking, next up after the cheminots are school teachers, who are already taking a beating in French society for "having an easy job, being lazy, going on summer holidays, having guaranteed employment for a lifetime". Progress!
 
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ro1960
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:21 pm

Two MPs proposed to not allow domestic flights if the journey could be made by train in under 5 hours or not more than 2.5 hours more than by plane. Le Monde wrote an interesting article about this. In the end not many air routes would be affected.

Article in French with interesting stats about French domestic routes as well as travel time comparison between rail and air (mouse over).

What's missing is the cost. Paris-Toulouse by train is only 3 hours longer than by air, yet it's the busiest air route in France and most of the time cheaper than taking the train.

The connecting passengers are excluded from the study so it's only a incomplete analysis of the issue.
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lightsaber
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:36 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Aviation taxes don't work, there have been numerous scientific investigations about it and they all have the same outcome. They harm the economy and have zero impact on the environment. Every flight less from one country is one flight more from another.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I remember being a little angry when forced to pay 45 EUR Dutch aviation tax on a 299 EUR Icelandair return flight to Canada ten years ago. But I didn't bother to travel to another country to start my journey from there and avoid the tax. It was just 45 EUR less to spend in Canada.

I know many Dutch passengers started to use Belgian and German airports that summer instead of the local ones. But the majority kept flying from Schiphol.

My employer flies us to German airports now for work in the Netherlands. Not for one tax, but because the total cost, including rental car and employee time, is less.

Lightsaber
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smartplane
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Re: France to charge aviation tax

Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:23 pm

lightsaber wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Aviation taxes don't work, there have been numerous scientific investigations about it and they all have the same outcome. They harm the economy and have zero impact on the environment. Every flight less from one country is one flight more from another.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I remember being a little angry when forced to pay 45 EUR Dutch aviation tax on a 299 EUR Icelandair return flight to Canada ten years ago. But I didn't bother to travel to another country to start my journey from there and avoid the tax. It was just 45 EUR less to spend in Canada.

I know many Dutch passengers started to use Belgian and German airports that summer instead of the local ones. But the majority kept flying from Schiphol.

My employer flies us to German airports now for work in the Netherlands. Not for one tax, but because the total cost, including rental car and employee time, is less.

Because your employer uses the UA / LH joint venture deal settled under Star Corporate? Your employer is subsidised by the higher fares lesser mortals have to pay on the same routes.

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