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apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3545
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:33 pm

I know the first thread on this got off topic so I wanted to rekindle this discussion.

Recap: AA is suing the TWU/IAM association which represents its Mechanics for alleged work slowdowns being used as a bargaining chip. These include longer repair times, refusal of overtime and road trips. This case was argued in court last week, but the judge gave a 30 day extension on the case, and there is a TRO in effect against the union. The union argued in court that the company should fire those members who are taking place in this action. There were competing experts on the stand, and it seems like nothing is clear. The judge seems to indicate that the ruling will eventually be in AAs favor. AA argues that since the TRO, things have gotten worse.

To note, the company and the association have been negotiating a Joint CBA for 4 years and even federal mediation has yielded nothing. And the TWU president had an infamous altercation with Robert Isom at an employee town hall that went viral.

Here are my observations on the situation.

1. It doesn't matter what the judge does in this case because the membership is not going to obey. There is a huge hatred for the association among a good majority of the membership, and the membership wants to stick it to the union as much as the company. The Union throwing members under the bus in court is not going to play out well.

2. There was a card drive for a new union that had started a year ago, but fizzled pretty quickly. A lot of members are even talking about bringing in AMFA to replace the association. But card drives have fizzled, and when they gain momentum the association (often with the help of the company) has used legal maneuvers to keep the membership from deciding. Also keep in mind the association was never voted on, but imposed on the membership after the merger despite promises of a vote.

3. The LUS folks still have far superior medical plans than the LAA folks, and are in no hurry to give it up for a JCBA.

4. Regardless of what happens, this is going to keep the AA stock price down in the near term. The other operational issues AA is having aren't going to help either. Sooner or later the AA board is going to have to take action with senior leadership. (Parker and Isom have no friends among the customers, no friends among the employees, and no friends on wall street at the moment, a bad recipe)

5. It is worth noting that IAM president Sito Pantoja, one of the chief negotiators for the association, currently sits on the UA board of directors.

Thoughts?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:37 pm

#5 is incorrect. He is not the President of the IAM, that would be Robert Martinez, Sito is General Vice President of Transportation. Him being on the UA BOD is irrelevant.
 
dfw88
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:25 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:59 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
#5 is incorrect. He is not the President of the IAM, that would be Robert Martinez, Sito is General Vice President of Transportation. Him being on the UA BOD is irrelevant.


So, you're right that he's actually the General Vice President of Transportation, but I don't know how you can call that irrelevant. Having someone who is negotiating with AA also sit on the UA BOD seems very relevant to me.
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3545
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:32 pm

dfw88 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
#5 is incorrect. He is not the President of the IAM, that would be Robert Martinez, Sito is General Vice President of Transportation. Him being on the UA BOD is irrelevant.


So, you're right that he's actually the General Vice President of Transportation, but I don't know how you can call that irrelevant. Having someone who is negotiating with AA also sit on the UA BOD seems very relevant to me.

I did get Sito's title wrong but he is the lead negotiator for the IAM side. Him sitting on the UA BOD is not irrelevant, and if you cant see the conflict of interest here you are blind.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:27 pm

FAA getting involved.

Copy of a letter from the FAA to management and unions

https://iam141.org/association-update-3/
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:29 pm

apodino wrote:
dfw88 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
#5 is incorrect. He is not the President of the IAM, that would be Robert Martinez, Sito is General Vice President of Transportation. Him being on the UA BOD is irrelevant.


So, you're right that he's actually the General Vice President of Transportation, but I don't know how you can call that irrelevant. Having someone who is negotiating with AA also sit on the UA BOD seems very relevant to me.

I did get Sito's title wrong but he is the lead negotiator for the IAM side. Him sitting on the UA BOD is not irrelevant, and if you cant see the conflict of interest here you are blind.

You do realize unions for 20 years have had BOD members at US before and UA and others

Sito being on UA’s board is legal under the law and SEC regulations. Mike Klemm is the lead negotiator at UA.

ALPA and IAM have board representation at UA.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:37 pm

And Tom Regan is actually the GLR who is doing most of the Negotiations for the IAM.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1083
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:41 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
apodino wrote:
dfw88 wrote:

So, you're right that he's actually the General Vice President of Transportation, but I don't know how you can call that irrelevant. Having someone who is negotiating with AA also sit on the UA BOD seems very relevant to me.

I did get Sito's title wrong but he is the lead negotiator for the IAM side. Him sitting on the UA BOD is not irrelevant, and if you cant see the conflict of interest here you are blind.

You do realize unions for 20 years have had BOD members at US before and UA and others

Sito being on UA’s board is legal under the law and SEC regulations. Mike Klemm is the lead negotiator at UA.

ALPA and IAM have board representation at UA.

The fact that it's legal and the fact that it raises questions are not mutually exclusive.
 
usairways787
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:42 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:05 pm

I'll chime in,

While AA is indeed suing the TWU/IAM, what they're not able to do is prove that there is indeed a slowdown. Why? Because there truly isn't one. Everyday I see the decisions being made that are causing problems that weren't problems until this last year. In DFW alone, on the fleet side, over 65,000 bags miss connected, and had to be put on other flights, or sent to the passengers house, oh this was also just for the month of June. This is also the first month that they've rolled out their new system, that we explained and tried to tell them why it wouldn't work. They didn't listen. The month and years prior it was a steady and consistent at 15,000 miss connects a month, including with IROP situations. Their excuse for this monstrosity? Weather. Not incompetence, weather.

Last year, 55 LAA managers were fired in a month alone. Why? Because they were being replaced with LUS people. Sure, I get it, merger comes with it's downsides, but the grumblings and things of this nature makes it seem very personal towards us as LUS is coming in and raiding their way through the nest. I get it, things change with mergers, but in my opinion they should be changing for the benefit of the company, employees, and passengers. Neither of this has happened, and it's only getting worse. The insurance we've asked for all 30,000 employees to be on costs the company $39 million. The top three executives have more in stock and bonuses/compensation for the year. Think about that for a minute. 30,000 employees and their families could have better healthcare, and quality of life, but instead the top THREE and their families are more important. The starting rate for an LAA fleet service clerk is $14.18 an hour, not bad if I may say so, but lets say that newly hired clerk has a family, well his monthly insurance costs for his wife and kids with him included is $600. Working for insurance that rate, what's LUS? $150-$200, and better coverage. Starting to see?

In conclusion, the hostility is only growing, they're demanding concessions that demand head count cuts, while refusing to grow head count in areas that are desperately needed. We're bursting at the seams in Dallas, planes are sometimes waiting 30+ minutes for a gate on clear blue sky days. The head counts are so low, that the newly opened B terminal gates were shut down for the day due to staffing and was labeled as "growing pains". I should also mention that the now head guy in Dallas calling the shots replaced a previous LAA manager that refused to bring these changes because he knew they wouldn't work, so he was shown the door. What you're truly seeing is a management structure that's so dysfunctional, incompetent and bloated that rather than sitting down and actually willfully wanting to do the right things, and make the right decisions that they'd just rather point the finger and bully their way around. It isn't gonna work, and they're realizing that now. Until the top changes, the bottom is gonna stay right where it is.

Slow down my ass.
Making bag smashing great again
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4570
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:28 pm

usairways787 wrote:
I'll chime in,

While AA is indeed suing the TWU/IAM, what they're not able to do is prove that there is indeed a slowdown. Why? Because there truly isn't one. Everyday I see the decisions being made that are causing problems that weren't problems until this last year. In DFW alone, on the fleet side, over 65,000 bags miss connected, and had to be put on other flights, or sent to the passengers house, oh this was also just for the month of June. This is also the first month that they've rolled out their new system, that we explained and tried to tell them why it wouldn't work. They didn't listen. The month and years prior it was a steady and consistent at 15,000 miss connects a month, including with IROP situations. Their excuse for this monstrosity? Weather. Not incompetence, weather.

Last year, 55 LAA managers were fired in a month alone. Why? Because they were being replaced with LUS people. Sure, I get it, merger comes with it's downsides, but the grumblings and things of this nature makes it seem very personal towards us as LUS is coming in and raiding their way through the nest. I get it, things change with mergers, but in my opinion they should be changing for the benefit of the company, employees, and passengers. Neither of this has happened, and it's only getting worse. The insurance we've asked for all 30,000 employees to be on costs the company $39 million. The top three executives have more in stock and bonuses/compensation for the year. Think about that for a minute. 30,000 employees and their families could have better healthcare, and quality of life, but instead the top THREE and their families are more important. The starting rate for an LAA fleet service clerk is $14.18 an hour, not bad if I may say so, but lets say that newly hired clerk has a family, well his monthly insurance costs for his wife and kids with him included is $600. Working for insurance that rate, what's LUS? $150-$200, and better coverage. Starting to see?

In conclusion, the hostility is only growing, they're demanding concessions that demand head count cuts, while refusing to grow head count in areas that are desperately needed. We're bursting at the seams in Dallas, planes are sometimes waiting 30+ minutes for a gate on clear blue sky days. The head counts are so low, that the newly opened B terminal gates were shut down for the day due to staffing and was labeled as "growing pains". I should also mention that the now head guy in Dallas calling the shots replaced a previous LAA manager that refused to bring these changes because he knew they wouldn't work, so he was shown the door. What you're truly seeing is a management structure that's so dysfunctional, incompetent and bloated that rather than sitting down and actually willfully wanting to do the right things, and make the right decisions that they'd just rather point the finger and bully their way around. It isn't gonna work, and they're realizing that now. Until the top changes, the bottom is gonna stay right where it is.

Slow down my ass.


Set you up for failure, blame you when it fails. Sounds about right.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1907
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:28 pm

usairways787 wrote:
I'll chime in,

While AA is indeed suing the TWU/IAM, what they're not able to do is prove that there is indeed a slowdown. Why? Because there truly isn't one. Everyday I see the decisions being made that are causing problems that weren't problems until this last year. In DFW alone, on the fleet side, over 65,000 bags miss connected, and had to be put on other flights, or sent to the passengers house, oh this was also just for the month of June. This is also the first month that they've rolled out their new system, that we explained and tried to tell them why it wouldn't work. They didn't listen. The month and years prior it was a steady and consistent at 15,000 miss connects a month, including with IROP situations. Their excuse for this monstrosity? Weather. Not incompetence, weather.

Last year, 55 LAA managers were fired in a month alone. Why? Because they were being replaced with LUS people. Sure, I get it, merger comes with it's downsides, but the grumblings and things of this nature makes it seem very personal towards us as LUS is coming in and raiding their way through the nest. I get it, things change with mergers, but in my opinion they should be changing for the benefit of the company, employees, and passengers. Neither of this has happened, and it's only getting worse. The insurance we've asked for all 30,000 employees to be on costs the company $39 million. The top three executives have more in stock and bonuses/compensation for the year. Think about that for a minute. 30,000 employees and their families could have better healthcare, and quality of life, but instead the top THREE and their families are more important. The starting rate for an LAA fleet service clerk is $14.18 an hour, not bad if I may say so, but lets say that newly hired clerk has a family, well his monthly insurance costs for his wife and kids with him included is $600. Working for insurance that rate, what's LUS? $150-$200, and better coverage. Starting to see?

In conclusion, the hostility is only growing, they're demanding concessions that demand head count cuts, while refusing to grow head count in areas that are desperately needed. We're bursting at the seams in Dallas, planes are sometimes waiting 30+ minutes for a gate on clear blue sky days. The head counts are so low, that the newly opened B terminal gates were shut down for the day due to staffing and was labeled as "growing pains". I should also mention that the now head guy in Dallas calling the shots replaced a previous LAA manager that refused to bring these changes because he knew they wouldn't work, so he was shown the door. What you're truly seeing is a management structure that's so dysfunctional, incompetent and bloated that rather than sitting down and actually willfully wanting to do the right things, and make the right decisions that they'd just rather point the finger and bully their way around. It isn't gonna work, and they're realizing that now. Until the top changes, the bottom is gonna stay right where it is.

Slow down my ass.



I think you're very correct actually.

Management at AA is now firmly in LUS executives hands. We are the new US airways. LAA's side of the house is so much more complicated than LUS's yet the C-suite refuses to learn the ropes. Just forcing unrealistic expectations down the pipe and playing the blame game when it goes sour.


This is a huge opportunity for Wall Street to clean house at the top and really change the direction of this airline.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3301
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:30 am

Boof02671 wrote:
FAA getting involved.

Copy of a letter from the FAA to management and unions

https://iam141.org/association-update-3/


Uh, no. That's a letter saying the FAA is not involved. It's a friendly reminder of something both parties can agree on.

usairways787 wrote:
The insurance we've asked for all 30,000 employees to be on costs the company $39 million. The top three executives have more in stock and bonuses/compensation for the year. Think about that for a minute. 30,000 employees and their families could have better healthcare, and quality of life, but instead the top THREE and their families are more important. The starting rate for an LAA fleet service clerk is $14.18 an hour, not bad if I may say so, but lets say that newly hired clerk has a family, well his monthly insurance costs for his wife and kids with him included is $600. Working for insurance that rate, what's LUS? $150-$200, and better coverage. Starting to see?


Welcome to the 21st century. I've been in that situation. Life isn't "fair". Don't like working somewhere? Quit!

The unions have already admitted there's a slowdown (they're just not admitting to an illegal one).

No offense, but this is the attitude that will bring down AA and will hurt the lower rung first. AA is a bloated company on the cost side. They will never have an industry-leading financial situation with its current cost structure. I don't know all the details of why AA is lagging so badly in costs, but it's highly likely from what I see that one of the largest reasons is that they employee too many people and pay them too much (when measured against its peers). The bottom needs to understand the situation. Management will lose their jobs if they agree to the union's wishes, retain a high cost structure, and subsequently underperform the industry. They have no choice for their future. They either improve the cost structure of AA, or they lose their jobs anyway. The bottom tier may get their wish someday of a management turnover, but it will only occur after their ranks have been properly decimated.

You know what would be best for the bottom? Show up, do your job well, quit biting the hands that feed you (customers), and collectively help improve AA's financial situation. If this occurs, management has less need to make involuntary cuts. More jobs are retained/created at a higher pay, and AA can move forward. But I don't see that happening, and the bottom is going to pay dearly when this is all over. It's going to ugly for them and the rest of AA if they continue down the road they're driving.
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3545
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:03 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
FAA getting involved.

Copy of a letter from the FAA to management and unions

https://iam141.org/association-update-3/


Uh, no. That's a letter saying the FAA is not involved. It's a friendly reminder of something both parties can agree on.

usairways787 wrote:
The insurance we've asked for all 30,000 employees to be on costs the company $39 million. The top three executives have more in stock and bonuses/compensation for the year. Think about that for a minute. 30,000 employees and their families could have better healthcare, and quality of life, but instead the top THREE and their families are more important. The starting rate for an LAA fleet service clerk is $14.18 an hour, not bad if I may say so, but lets say that newly hired clerk has a family, well his monthly insurance costs for his wife and kids with him included is $600. Working for insurance that rate, what's LUS? $150-$200, and better coverage. Starting to see?


Welcome to the 21st century. I've been in that situation. Life isn't "fair". Don't like working somewhere? Quit!

The unions have already admitted there's a slowdown (they're just not admitting to an illegal one).

No offense, but this is the attitude that will bring down AA and will hurt the lower rung first. AA is a bloated company on the cost side. They will never have an industry-leading financial situation with its current cost structure. I don't know all the details of why AA is lagging so badly in costs, but it's highly likely from what I see that one of the largest reasons is that they employee too many people and pay them too much (when measured against its peers). The bottom needs to understand the situation. Management will lose their jobs if they agree to the union's wishes, retain a high cost structure, and subsequently underperform the industry. They have no choice for their future. They either improve the cost structure of AA, or they lose their jobs anyway. The bottom tier may get their wish someday of a management turnover, but it will only occur after their ranks have been properly decimated.

You know what would be best for the bottom? Show up, do your job well, quit biting the hands that feed you (customers), and collectively help improve AA's financial situation. If this occurs, management has less need to make involuntary cuts. More jobs are retained/created at a higher pay, and AA can move forward. But I don't see that happening, and the bottom is going to pay dearly when this is all over. It's going to ugly for them and the rest of AA if they continue down the road they're driving.


The situation at AA isn't quite what you are portraying. I can tell you thousands of AA employees show up every day and do their job, but there are systematic issues in place that frustrate the front line employees and in most cases its micromanaging and a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with union contracts whatsoever.

That being said you brought up costs. Here are some facts on that. Delta has a smaller fleet than AA but more pilots and their pilots earn more. In fact if you compare every work group at AA to DL or even UA, in most cases AA will not be the top dog. Yet somehow DL has lower costs. That tells me labor costs are not the issue even though its where management seems to be looking to for cost savings.

Another case, if you have been to DFW lately you have seen the new HQ that has been built along 360. Was it really necessary to build a new HQ, and do it in such a lavish way? DL has not had to do this, and UA leases space in the Willis Tower for this.

The point I am trying to make is employee benefits are not the reason AA has a bloated cost structure. Some of this predates Doug Parker, but Parker doesn't seem to be addressing the right issues. And employees are not being given the tools they need to do their job.

Lastly, there is a lot of people from Northwest currently sitting in the AA management ranks. These are the people Delta didn't want after the merger and left on the street. Think about that.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:13 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
FAA getting involved.

Copy of a letter from the FAA to management and unions

https://iam141.org/association-update-3/


Uh, no. That's a letter saying the FAA is not involved. It's a friendly reminder of something both parties can agree on.

usairways787 wrote:
The insurance we've asked for all 30,000 employees to be on costs the company $39 million. The top three executives have more in stock and bonuses/compensation for the year. Think about that for a minute. 30,000 employees and their families could have better healthcare, and quality of life, but instead the top THREE and their families are more important. The starting rate for an LAA fleet service clerk is $14.18 an hour, not bad if I may say so, but lets say that newly hired clerk has a family, well his monthly insurance costs for his wife and kids with him included is $600. Working for insurance that rate, what's LUS? $150-$200, and better coverage. Starting to see?


Welcome to the 21st century. I've been in that situation. Life isn't "fair". Don't like working somewhere? Quit!

The unions have already admitted there's a slowdown (they're just not admitting to an illegal one).

No offense, but this is the attitude that will bring down AA and will hurt the lower rung first. AA is a bloated company on the cost side. They will never have an industry-leading financial situation with its current cost structure. I don't know all the details of why AA is lagging so badly in costs, but it's highly likely from what I see that one of the largest reasons is that they employee too many people and pay them too much (when measured against its peers). The bottom needs to understand the situation. Management will lose their jobs if they agree to the union's wishes, retain a high cost structure, and subsequently underperform the industry. They have no choice for their future. They either improve the cost structure of AA, or they lose their jobs anyway. The bottom tier may get their wish someday of a management turnover, but it will only occur after their ranks have been properly decimated.

You know what would be best for the bottom? Show up, do your job well, quit biting the hands that feed you (customers), and collectively help improve AA's financial situation. If this occurs, management has less need to make involuntary cuts. More jobs are retained/created at a higher pay, and AA can move forward. But I don't see that happening, and the bottom is going to pay dearly when this is all over. It's going to ugly for them and the rest of AA if they continue down the road they're driving.

The FAA has stepped up oversite.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1550
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:14 am

usairways787 wrote:
I'll chime in,

While AA is indeed suing the TWU/IAM, what they're not able to do is prove that there is indeed a slowdown. Why? Because there truly isn't one.


Courts dont issue TROs for obviously non-existent issues. Also, IAM-TWU admitted that things are slow - they came up with a positively ludicrous reason (one that reads like the dog eating homework), but did admit things arent running quick.

I'm not arguing management isnt blameless. The whole board, Parker etc. Likely need replacement. But so does IAM-TWU and their rubbish.

Time to clean house. DL has shown that with good leadership and no IAM-TWU cabal, you can mint money.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
usairways787
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:42 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:24 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
FAA getting involved.

Copy of a letter from the FAA to management and unions

https://iam141.org/association-update-3/


Uh, no. That's a letter saying the FAA is not involved. It's a friendly reminder of something both parties can agree on.

usairways787 wrote:
The insurance we've asked for all 30,000 employees to be on costs the company $39 million. The top three executives have more in stock and bonuses/compensation for the year. Think about that for a minute. 30,000 employees and their families could have better healthcare, and quality of life, but instead the top THREE and their families are more important. The starting rate for an LAA fleet service clerk is $14.18 an hour, not bad if I may say so, but lets say that newly hired clerk has a family, well his monthly insurance costs for his wife and kids with him included is $600. Working for insurance that rate, what's LUS? $150-$200, and better coverage. Starting to see?


Welcome to the 21st century. I've been in that situation. Life isn't "fair". Don't like working somewhere? Quit!

The unions have already admitted there's a slowdown (they're just not admitting to an illegal one).

No offense, but this is the attitude that will bring down AA and will hurt the lower rung first. AA is a bloated company on the cost side. They will never have an industry-leading financial situation with its current cost structure. I don't know all the details of why AA is lagging so badly in costs, but it's highly likely from what I see that one of the largest reasons is that they employee too many people and pay them too much (when measured against its peers). The bottom needs to understand the situation. Management will lose their jobs if they agree to the union's wishes, retain a high cost structure, and subsequently underperform the industry. They have no choice for their future. They either improve the cost structure of AA, or they lose their jobs anyway. The bottom tier may get their wish someday of a management turnover, but it will only occur after their ranks have been properly decimated.

You know what would be best for the bottom? Show up, do your job well, quit biting the hands that feed you (customers), and collectively help improve AA's financial situation. If this occurs, management has less need to make involuntary cuts. More jobs are retained/created at a higher pay, and AA can move forward. But I don't see that happening, and the bottom is going to pay dearly when this is all over. It's going to ugly for them and the rest of AA if they continue down the road they're driving.


Well gee golly green eggs and ham. Sounds to me like an uninformed opinion looking from the outside with absolutely no knowledge as to what is actually going on within the actual company.

First, I like my job, so I fail to see where you're drawing the conclusion. I merely despise the management decisions of a bunch of low budget carrier mentality coming in here running a house hold name and absolutely decimating the livelihoods of thousands.

Second, we're also not the best paid amongst the industry, and we're also the largest airline, so NATURALLY, we're gonna have more employees than the others genius.

Third, the reason as to why they're lagging is because of the piss poor decision making amongst the top level have completely changed the entire structure of how the company is run, but you and all of your all knowing wisdom probably already knew that, or heard it from a friend who knows a guy.

Last, we show up every single day, we do our jobs, and we take of our passengers the very best we can. However, when you take away the tools, and discipline employees for trying to do the right thing where does the blame come to? When thousands of people are stranded sleeping in a terminal with no blankets, no hotels, and people are missing their destinations and plans all because we are not given the tools to succeed to TAKE CARE OF OUR PASSENGERS? What part of any of that do you not understand?
Making bag smashing great again
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:29 am

Antarius wrote:
usairways787 wrote:
I'll chime in,

While AA is indeed suing the TWU/IAM, what they're not able to do is prove that there is indeed a slowdown. Why? Because there truly isn't one.


Courts dont issue TROs for obviously non-existent issues. Also, IAM-TWU admitted that things are slow - they came up with a positively ludicrous reason (one that reads like the dog eating homework), but did admit things arent running quick.

I'm not arguing management isnt blameless. The whole board, Parker etc. Likely need replacement. But so does IAM-TWU and their rubbish.

Time to clean house. DL has shown that with good leadership and no IAM-TWU cabal, you can mint money.

And AA has even stated they are flying more flights with less planes which increases wear and tear and leaves less time for maintenance, that’s in the court filings.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:34 am

Last week at MCO AA needed a starter for the V2500 engine on an Airbus, well low and behold AA didn’t have one serviceable in stock. How can an airline that has V2500 equipped A320 family and not have one? Someone needs to be fired for this, and that’s a management function.

AA had to buy one from DL at MIA and have it an air taxi get it. That goes down as a maintenance delay, yet that’s not the mechanic’s fault.
 
NYCAAer
Posts: 659
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:48 am

usairways787 wrote:
I'll chime in,

While AA is indeed suing the TWU/IAM, what they're not able to do is prove that there is indeed a slowdown. Why? Because there truly isn't one. Everyday I see the decisions being made that are causing problems that weren't problems until this last year. In DFW alone, on the fleet side, over 65,000 bags miss connected, and had to be put on other flights, or sent to the passengers house, oh this was also just for the month of June. This is also the first month that they've rolled out their new system, that we explained and tried to tell them why it wouldn't work. They didn't listen. The month and years prior it was a steady and consistent at 15,000 miss connects a month, including with IROP situations. Their excuse for this monstrosity? Weather. Not incompetence, weather.

Last year, 55 LAA managers were fired in a month alone. Why? Because they were being replaced with LUS people. Sure, I get it, merger comes with it's downsides, but the grumblings and things of this nature makes it seem very personal towards us as LUS is coming in and raiding their way through the nest. I get it, things change with mergers, but in my opinion they should be changing for the benefit of the company, employees, and passengers. Neither of this has happened, and it's only getting worse. The insurance we've asked for all 30,000 employees to be on costs the company $39 million. The top three executives have more in stock and bonuses/compensation for the year. Think about that for a minute. 30,000 employees and their families could have better healthcare, and quality of life, but instead the top THREE and their families are more important. The starting rate for an LAA fleet service clerk is $14.18 an hour, not bad if I may say so, but lets say that newly hired clerk has a family, well his monthly insurance costs for his wife and kids with him included is $600. Working for insurance that rate, what's LUS? $150-$200, and better coverage. Starting to see?

In conclusion, the hostility is only growing, they're demanding concessions that demand head count cuts, while refusing to grow head count in areas that are desperately needed. We're bursting at the seams in Dallas, planes are sometimes waiting 30+ minutes for a gate on clear blue sky days. The head counts are so low, that the newly opened B terminal gates were shut down for the day due to staffing and was labeled as "growing pains". I should also mention that the now head guy in Dallas calling the shots replaced a previous LAA manager that refused to bring these changes because he knew they wouldn't work, so he was shown the door. What you're truly seeing is a management structure that's so dysfunctional, incompetent and bloated that rather than sitting down and actually willfully wanting to do the right things, and make the right decisions that they'd just rather point the finger and bully their way around. It isn't gonna work, and they're realizing that now. Until the top changes, the bottom is gonna stay right where it is.

Slow down my ass.


So well put. $14.18 an hour is criminally low, considering that here in New York State, the minimum wage is $15.00 an hour. You could earn more working at McDonald’s. Ever see the bag tags on some crew members? They say- Robert I S O M, and Isom is used as an acronym for “I Support Our Mechanics.”

Bring Back Bob!
 
Antarius
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:09 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
usairways787 wrote:
I'll chime in,

While AA is indeed suing the TWU/IAM, what they're not able to do is prove that there is indeed a slowdown. Why? Because there truly isn't one.


Courts dont issue TROs for obviously non-existent issues. Also, IAM-TWU admitted that things are slow - they came up with a positively ludicrous reason (one that reads like the dog eating homework), but did admit things arent running quick.

I'm not arguing management isnt blameless. The whole board, Parker etc. Likely need replacement. But so does IAM-TWU and their rubbish.

Time to clean house. DL has shown that with good leadership and no IAM-TWU cabal, you can mint money.

And AA has even stated they are flying more flights with less planes which increases wear and tear and leaves less time for maintenance, that’s in the court filings.


And yet, there was still a TRO.

So acting like there is no basis whatsoever for this is wishful thinking.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:22 am

Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Courts dont issue TROs for obviously non-existent issues. Also, IAM-TWU admitted that things are slow - they came up with a positively ludicrous reason (one that reads like the dog eating homework), but did admit things arent running quick.

I'm not arguing management isnt blameless. The whole board, Parker etc. Likely need replacement. But so does IAM-TWU and their rubbish.

Time to clean house. DL has shown that with good leadership and no IAM-TWU cabal, you can mint money.

And AA has even stated they are flying more flights with less planes which increases wear and tear and leaves less time for maintenance, that’s in the court filings.


And yet, there was still a TRO.

So acting like there is no basis whatsoever for this is wishful thinking.

You do realize the TRO was issues exparte?

The unions were not given a chance to defend themselves, it was issued without a hearing.
 
Antarius
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:27 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
And AA has even stated they are flying more flights with less planes which increases wear and tear and leaves less time for maintenance, that’s in the court filings.


And yet, there was still a TRO.

So acting like there is no basis whatsoever for this is wishful thinking.

You do realize the TRO was issues exparte?

The unions were not given a chance to defend themselves, it was issued without a hearing.


You keep repeating this like it is relevant.

Read points 2 and 3 in the court order.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
apodino
Topic Author
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:54 am

Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Antarius wrote:

And yet, there was still a TRO.

So acting like there is no basis whatsoever for this is wishful thinking.

You do realize the TRO was issues exparte?

The unions were not given a chance to defend themselves, it was issued without a hearing.


You keep repeating this like it is relevant.

Read points 2 and 3 in the court order.


Here is the other issue though. The court can order the union all they want to. The problem is right now a good majority of the membership is as upset at the Union as they are the company. The union has no influence on these people, who are going to keep doing what they have been doing to get us to this point. The union throwing them under the bus in court wont help matters.
 
strfyr51
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:59 am

Varsity1 wrote:
usairways787 wrote:
I'll chime in,

While AA is indeed suing the TWU/IAM, what they're not able to do is prove that there is indeed a slowdown. Why? Because there truly isn't one. Everyday I see the decisions being made that are causing problems that weren't problems until this last year. In DFW alone, on the fleet side, over 65,000 bags miss connected, and had to be put on other flights, or sent to the passengers house, oh this was also just for the month of June. This is also the first month that they've rolled out their new system, that we explained and tried to tell them why it wouldn't work. They didn't listen. The month and years prior it was a steady and consistent at 15,000 miss connects a month, including with IROP situations. Their excuse for this monstrosity? Weather. Not incompetence, weather.

Last year, 55 LAA managers were fired in a month alone. Why? Because they were being replaced with LUS people. Sure, I get it, merger comes with it's downsides, but the grumblings and things of this nature makes it seem very personal towards us as LUS is coming in and raiding their way through the nest. I get it, things change with mergers, but in my opinion they should be changing for the benefit of the company, employees, and passengers. Neither of this has happened, and it's only getting worse. The insurance we've asked for all 30,000 employees to be on costs the company $39 million. The top three executives have more in stock and bonuses/compensation for the year. Think about that for a minute. 30,000 employees and their families could have better healthcare, and quality of life, but instead the top THREE and their families are more important. The starting rate for an LAA fleet service clerk is $14.18 an hour, not bad if I may say so, but lets say that newly hired clerk has a family, well his monthly insurance costs for his wife and kids with him included is $600. Working for insurance that rate, what's LUS? $150-$200, and better coverage. Starting to see?

In conclusion, the hostility is only growing, they're demanding concessions that demand head count cuts, while refusing to grow head count in areas that are desperately needed. We're bursting at the seams in Dallas, planes are sometimes waiting 30+ minutes for a gate on clear blue sky days. The head counts are so low, that the newly opened B terminal gates were shut down for the day due to staffing and was labeled as "growing pains". I should also mention that the now head guy in Dallas calling the shots replaced a previous LAA manager that refused to bring these changes because he knew they wouldn't work, so he was shown the door. What you're truly seeing is a management structure that's so dysfunctional, incompetent and bloated that rather than sitting down and actually willfully wanting to do the right things, and make the right decisions that they'd just rather point the finger and bully their way around. It isn't gonna work, and they're realizing that now. Until the top changes, the bottom is gonna stay right where it is.

Slow down my ass.



I think you're very correct actually.

Management at AA is now firmly in LUS executives hands. We are the new US airways. LAA's side of the house is so much more complicated than LUS's yet the C-suite refuses to learn the ropes. Just forcing unrealistic expectations down the pipe and playing the blame game when it goes sour.


This was nearly what happened during the United/Continental merger, Trouble was? They didn't get away with it.. The BOD started looking at it, Then? A lot of CO Managers wound up leaving and a LOT of Ex American and EX- Northwest managers are running the show.
 
Antarius
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:47 am

apodino wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
You do realize the TRO was issues exparte?

The unions were not given a chance to defend themselves, it was issued without a hearing.


You keep repeating this like it is relevant.

Read points 2 and 3 in the court order.


Here is the other issue though. The court can order the union all they want to. The problem is right now a good majority of the membership is as upset at the Union as they are the company. The union has no influence on these people, who are going to keep doing what they have been doing to get us to this point. The union throwing them under the bus in court wont help matters.


Fair point. The question is, if the union is causing consternation for AA and the members, what value are they adding?

Seems like an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. As in, if the members feel IAM-TWU is not representing them or their needs, keeping them around to seemingly antagonize the situation while not providing results is counterproductive.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
b377
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:27 am

The underlying problem of this issue is that the two unions, TWU and IAM can't get to an agreement about how they should successfully merge, thereby penalizing their members and not allowing a vote. period. It is necessary for them to agree, send the best contract to the membership for a vote, and in my opinion get this behind them
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:37 am

b377 wrote:
The underlying problem of this issue is that the two unions, TWU and IAM can't get to an agreement about how they should successfully merge, thereby penalizing their members and not allowing a vote. period. It is necessary for them to agree, send the best contract to the membership for a vote, and in my opinion get this behind them

Not true at all.
 
b377
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:56 am

Fair enough. I expressed an opinion, which won't go far on this site.

To be clear, AA management has offered to match every contract approved by UA WN and DL employees and yet as I understand have never been sent down to the work and file for approval. What's the problem? Let the workers decide the outcome
 
EBiafore99
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:03 am

IMHO, this issue, along with many other AA issues, goes back to the fact that this was a "forced" merger rather than a "rational" merger (I can't think of better words). DL/NW started the merger frenzy. Then UA/CO merged. Well, that left AA and US and poof, you have a merger of the only two left.

Now we have a new airline which was formed as a reaction to the consolidation frenzy and not for business reasons. Add to that the management team came from the smaller of the two airlines pre-merger (US) with a radically different philosophy than its merger partner (AA). In addition, I believe that at the time of the merger, the US pilots were still deadlocked in a battle over seniority resulting from the US/America West merger, which shows how well US tackles merger issues.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:06 pm

b377 wrote:
Fair enough. I expressed an opinion, which won't go far on this site.

To be clear, AA management has offered to match every contract approved by UA WN and DL employees and yet as I understand have never been sent down to the work and file for approval. What's the problem? Let the workers decide the outcome

First of all DL is non-union and has no contract, second accepting UA or WN would result in massive layoffs and concessions.
 
apodino
Topic Author
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:06 pm

Antarius wrote:
apodino wrote:
Antarius wrote:

You keep repeating this like it is relevant.

Read points 2 and 3 in the court order.


Here is the other issue though. The court can order the union all they want to. The problem is right now a good majority of the membership is as upset at the Union as they are the company. The union has no influence on these people, who are going to keep doing what they have been doing to get us to this point. The union throwing them under the bus in court wont help matters.


Fair point. The question is, if the union is causing consternation for AA and the members, what value are they adding?

Seems like an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. As in, if the members feel IAM-TWU is not representing them or their needs, keeping them around to seemingly antagonize the situation while not providing results is counterproductive.


Believe me, there have been a number of attempts to breakaway. A group tried to organize the IBT around the time of the merger, but then the IBT got caught forging cards and the campaign went no where. More recently, a group has tried to form an inhouse union called AMP, which had momentum early, but for some reason stalled out. And any further attempts to breakaway usually cause the union and the company to collude to put an end to it. About the only remedy the members have for union accountability is to file a DFR lawsuit. However given that a union will have far better attorneys than what a member would be able to afford, these typically go nowhere.

A lot of members want to vote on the company proposal. This does not mean they support it, but they know if the proposal is voted down, the union gains leverage at the table and the company will have to respond. They have not done that, perhaps fearing the vote would pass. I remind people that AMFA at Southwest allowed their membership to vote, and it got voted down. Look what they now got.

One other issue complicating things is the fact that one contract represents both Line and Base maintenance. The folks in TUL and PIT for example have way different needs in a contract than the folks in MIA or PHL. These interests often compete with one another.
 
Varsity1
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:57 pm

Managers need to manage. At some point you can't blame any more on the labor, all they do is work.

The other airlines in the USA are doing great, literally every single one. AA needs to clean house at the top and get a competent C suite. This is the second weak merger by Doug and Co.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
DFW17L
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:47 pm

apodino wrote:
I know the first thread on this got off topic so I wanted to rekindle this discussion.


Rekindle, as in, Smoky Bear says, "Only you can prevent (forest) fires".
 
NWAESC
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:42 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
...Him being on the UA BOD is irrelevant.


Oh, it's totally relevant...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
NWAESC
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:46 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
First of all DL is non-union and has no contract...


Irrelevant.

It's not hard for AA to see what sort of pay/benefits DL currently have.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:55 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
First of all DL is non-union and has no contract...


Irrelevant.

It's not hard for AA to see what sort of pay/benefits DL currently have.

What about Scope, Grievance Procedure OT etc?

It’s very relevant, DL mechanics have zero job protections.

Do you know DL outsources most of their heavy maintenance, interior mods etc?

DL mechanics work more heavy maintenance on other airlines’ planes than their own?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:57 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Managers need to manage. At some point you can't blame any more on the labor, all they do is work.

The other airlines in the USA are doing great, literally every single one. AA needs to clean house at the top and get a competent C suite. This is the second weak merger by Doug and Co.


There are work groups that just will not be managed. IMHO, you'd need to back to Wolf at US and Crandall at AA to find successful leadership. If AA workers aren't going to yield DL/WN/AS levels of per$ labor productivity then AA isn't going to make comparable margins. Investors have figured this out (see marketwatch.com), as shown by market capitalizations:

DL $38.9 Billion
WN $28.2 Billion
UA $23.5 Billion
AA $14.6 Billion
AS $7.8 Billion (with less than 1/4 of AA's revenue passenger miles last year)
 
WayexTDI
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:03 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
First of all DL is non-union and has no contract...


Irrelevant.

It's not hard for AA to see what sort of pay/benefits DL currently have.

What about Scope, Grievance Procedure OT etc?

It’s very relevant, DL mechanics have zero job protections.

Do you know DL outsources most of their heavy maintenance, interior mods etc?

DL mechanics work more heavy maintenance on other airlines’ planes than their own?

Ah, the good ol' "you ain't union, you ain't protected"...

You do understand that companies cannot fire someone just willy-nilly? You still need an "official" reason to let someone go.
Also, you do understand that firing an employee cost the company money? They need to advertise the open position, interview candidates, hire and vet the candidate, then train the new employee on internal procedures, software, etc... Do you know how much this cost a company???

And DL mechanics working on others' planes than DL's is irrelevant; they have a job and fulfill this job as required. They need to start worrying when TechOps stops working on others' planes, and this is not what's happening now.
 
NWAESC
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:03 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
What about Scope, Grievance Procedure OT etc?

It’s very relevant, DL mechanics have zero job protections.

Do you know DL outsources most of their heavy maintenance, interior mods etc?

DL mechanics work more heavy maintenance on other airlines’ planes than their own?


Meh. Less HMV work, but more component work. Line maintenance has also been growing at a great pace over the last few years, with several stations either opened, reopened, or expanded. How's that working out at AA? Any Class II stations open lately?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
MSPNWA
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:13 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Ah, the good ol' "you ain't union, you ain't protected"...

You do understand that companies cannot fire someone just willy-nilly? You still need an "official" reason to let someone go.


Well, they're not protected! Since you have "official" in quotes, you must know how much easier it is to find a reason.

The bottom line is that it's a big advantage for the company to not have a union to deal with. They will find a "reason".

NWAESC wrote:
Meh. Less HMV work, but more component work. Line maintenance has also been growing at a great pace over the last few years, with several stations either opened, reopened, or expanded. How's that working out at AA? Any Class II stations open lately?


And what they have (which is less) can be taken away at any moment. Can we stop this childish pretending that unions don't offer the workers many advantages? What we're seeing at AA is a by-product of that fact.
 
Maverick623
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:20 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Ah, the good ol' "you ain't union, you ain't protected"...

You do understand that companies cannot fire someone just willy-nilly? You still need an "official" reason to let someone go.


Patently false in the US, unless you live in Montana (the only state that is not "at-will").

It is completely legal (and happens everyday) to fire someone for no reason, or a bad reason.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
apodino
Topic Author
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:30 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Managers need to manage. At some point you can't blame any more on the labor, all they do is work.

The other airlines in the USA are doing great, literally every single one. AA needs to clean house at the top and get a competent C suite. This is the second weak merger by Doug and Co.


There are work groups that just will not be managed. IMHO, you'd need to back to Wolf at US and Crandall at AA to find successful leadership. If AA workers aren't going to yield DL/WN/AS levels of per$ labor productivity then AA isn't going to make comparable margins. Investors have figured this out (see marketwatch.com), as shown by market capitalizations:

DL $38.9 Billion
WN $28.2 Billion
UA $23.5 Billion
AA $14.6 Billion
AS $7.8 Billion (with less than 1/4 of AA's revenue passenger miles last year)


The reason AA workers cant be as productive, is because management is not giving the front line employees the tools to be productive. That is on management. Taking native Sabre away for example has really rubbed a lot of long time employees the wrong way and has made them less productive. But your Market Cap number is telling. Despite all the share buybacks and the dividends that AA is paying out, and the reported profits, for the market cap to be where it is is disgusting, and again that falls on senior leadership. Wall Street has been telling Parker for months now to pay down debt, pay down debt. Instead they used the money to buy back shares. (Parker seems to have had fun giving wall street the finger lately as well) Because the market cap has dropped with the share buyback, the investors did not make a dime from this, and management in a sense has basically made the money disappear into thin air.

The guys who are good leaders that should be looked at today are Oscar Munoz, and Ed Bastian. If you want historical examples of good leadership, think Herb Kelleher, or Gordon Bethune. I am convinced that good management can yield good production. Its not just about labor contracts. Right now, the employees don't even feel as though any of their concerns are being listened to. Morale is in the tank. Again, this is on management.

Now supposedly, rumor has it that the Judge has told the union that they can fine their own membership who may be engaged in this so called job action. If the union actually does start doing this, things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. The union is not blameless in this situation at all.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:42 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:

Irrelevant.

It's not hard for AA to see what sort of pay/benefits DL currently have.

What about Scope, Grievance Procedure OT etc?

It’s very relevant, DL mechanics have zero job protections.

Do you know DL outsources most of their heavy maintenance, interior mods etc?

DL mechanics work more heavy maintenance on other airlines’ planes than their own?

Ah, the good ol' "you ain't union, you ain't protected"...

You do understand that companies cannot fire someone just willy-nilly? You still need an "official" reason to let someone go.
Also, you do understand that firing an employee cost the company money? They need to advertise the open position, interview candidates, hire and vet the candidate, then train the new employee on internal procedures, software, etc... Do you know how much this cost a company???

And DL mechanics working on others' planes than DL's is irrelevant; they have a job and fulfill this job as required. They need to start worrying when TechOps stops working on others' planes, and this is not what's happening now.

If you are an employee at will you can be fired for any reason as long as the it’s not against the law.

You have zero knowledge about labor laws.

If an airline moves the work from Delta the mechanics have zero job protection.
 
NWAESC
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:45 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
And what they have (which is less) can be taken away at any moment. Can we stop this childish pretending that unions don't offer the workers many advantages?


Never said they didn’t.

In this case, the opposite is happening.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:41 pm

usairways787 wrote:
In DFW alone, on the fleet side, over 65,000 bags miss connected, and had to be put on other flights, or sent to the passengers house, oh this was also just for the month of June. This is also the first month that they've rolled out their new system, that we explained and tried to tell them why it wouldn't work. They didn't listen. The month and years prior it was a steady and consistent at 15,000 miss connects a month, including with IROP situations. Their excuse for this monstrosity? Weather. Not incompetence, weather.


Pardon my ignorance, but what is this new system you're referring to? I'm just curious, as a passenger

Boof02671 wrote:
Last week at MCO AA needed a starter for the V2500 engine on an Airbus, well low and behold AA didn’t have one serviceable in stock. How can an airline that has V2500 equipped A320 family and not have one? Someone needs to be fired for this, and that’s a management function.

AA had to buy one from DL at MIA and have it an air taxi get it. That goes down as a maintenance delay, yet that’s not the mechanic’s fault.


Since MCO is an outstation, I'm assuming it's not too surprising they would not have this part. It is surprising that AA didn't have the part at their MIA hub though, right?
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3545
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:14 pm

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
usairways787 wrote:
In DFW alone, on the fleet side, over 65,000 bags miss connected, and had to be put on other flights, or sent to the passengers house, oh this was also just for the month of June. This is also the first month that they've rolled out their new system, that we explained and tried to tell them why it wouldn't work. They didn't listen. The month and years prior it was a steady and consistent at 15,000 miss connects a month, including with IROP situations. Their excuse for this monstrosity? Weather. Not incompetence, weather.


Pardon my ignorance, but what is this new system you're referring to? I'm just curious, as a passenger

Boof02671 wrote:
Last week at MCO AA needed a starter for the V2500 engine on an Airbus, well low and behold AA didn’t have one serviceable in stock. How can an airline that has V2500 equipped A320 family and not have one? Someone needs to be fired for this, and that’s a management function.

AA had to buy one from DL at MIA and have it an air taxi get it. That goes down as a maintenance delay, yet that’s not the mechanic’s fault.


Since MCO is an outstation, I'm assuming it's not too surprising they would not have this part. It is surprising that AA didn't have the part at their MIA hub though, right?


MCO is an outstation, but its also a MX base that does a ton of overnight MX. This is an old LUS base as well, meaning they are very experienced on the Airbus. But your underlying point is correct, you have 8 AA hubs that all do MX on the Airbus fleet and none of them had this part so they had to order it from Delta. That is mindboggling to say the least.

In the meantime the judge overseeing this case is bringing down the hammer harder against the Union. This is not going to get any prettier.

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2019/07/10/american-airlines-mechanics-slowdown.html
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:56 pm

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
usairways787 wrote:
In DFW alone, on the fleet side, over 65,000 bags miss connected, and had to be put on other flights, or sent to the passengers house, oh this was also just for the month of June. This is also the first month that they've rolled out their new system, that we explained and tried to tell them why it wouldn't work. They didn't listen. The month and years prior it was a steady and consistent at 15,000 miss connects a month, including with IROP situations. Their excuse for this monstrosity? Weather. Not incompetence, weather.


Pardon my ignorance, but what is this new system you're referring to? I'm just curious, as a passenger

Boof02671 wrote:
Last week at MCO AA needed a starter for the V2500 engine on an Airbus, well low and behold AA didn’t have one serviceable in stock. How can an airline that has V2500 equipped A320 family and not have one? Someone needs to be fired for this, and that’s a management function.

AA had to buy one from DL at MIA and have it an air taxi get it. That goes down as a maintenance delay, yet that’s not the mechanic’s fault.


Since MCO is an outstation, I'm assuming it's not too surprising they would not have this part. It is surprising that AA didn't have the part at their MIA hub though, right?


Orlando is a Maintenance station they do stock numerous parts and they do stock starters. AA didn’t have one at all that was serviceable in stock in the whole AA system. That’s why they had to buy one from Delta.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1083
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:12 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Ah, the good ol' "you ain't union, you ain't protected"...

You do understand that companies cannot fire someone just willy-nilly? You still need an "official" reason to let someone go.


Well, they're not protected! Since you have "official" in quotes, you must know how much easier it is to find a reason.

The bottom line is that it's a big advantage for the company to not have a union to deal with. They will find a "reason".

And the fact is they won't do it just willy-nilly because it costs them in the end (recruiting and training a replacement is not cheap).
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1083
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:13 pm

Maverick623 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Ah, the good ol' "you ain't union, you ain't protected"...

You do understand that companies cannot fire someone just willy-nilly? You still need an "official" reason to let someone go.


Patently false in the US, unless you live in Montana (the only state that is not "at-will").

It is completely legal (and happens everyday) to fire someone for no reason, or a bad reason.

BUT, what you do not understand, is that those reasons are overturned when the employee decides to fight back and it ends up in court.

And then again, companies do not fire willy-nilly since it ends up costing them as recruiting and training a replacement is not cheap.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1083
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:14 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
What about Scope, Grievance Procedure OT etc?

It’s very relevant, DL mechanics have zero job protections.

Do you know DL outsources most of their heavy maintenance, interior mods etc?

DL mechanics work more heavy maintenance on other airlines’ planes than their own?

Ah, the good ol' "you ain't union, you ain't protected"...

You do understand that companies cannot fire someone just willy-nilly? You still need an "official" reason to let someone go.
Also, you do understand that firing an employee cost the company money? They need to advertise the open position, interview candidates, hire and vet the candidate, then train the new employee on internal procedures, software, etc... Do you know how much this cost a company???

And DL mechanics working on others' planes than DL's is irrelevant; they have a job and fulfill this job as required. They need to start worrying when TechOps stops working on others' planes, and this is not what's happening now.

If you are an employee at will you can be fired for any reason as long as the it’s not against the law.

You have zero knowledge about labor laws.

If an airline moves the work from Delta the mechanics have zero job protection.

You have zero knowledge on how management work either...
Delta TechOps is going nowhere, they are actually expanding.
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