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NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:13 pm

Okay, 1 new point. That's a good start.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:22 pm

Remember the merger added maintenance to cities which each respective airline didn’t have.

And new cities and protections are on the table.
 
alasizon
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:59 am

Boof02671 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
AS the employees do the work, they generate the revenue.


Nothing a mechanic does generates revenue. An AMT protects the revenue generated by the yield management & sales folks and that revenue is provided by the customers. Without customers, there is no revenue to be had.

Guess you dint realize the hundreds of millions of dollars delta makes at TechOps insourcing work which AA chose to get out of.


And again, the point is that AA got rid of it. Since this is about AA and their mechanics (even though you keep bringing up DL's TechOps), my statement stands pretty true as AA mechanics aren't doing the work that is generating revenue which was your original statement.

Boof02671 wrote:
Remember the merger added maintenance to cities which each respective airline didn’t have.

And new cities and protections are on the table.

Increase of Line & Base MX cities results in overlapping redundancies as the two workgroups each had everything they needed to run a full airline. When you merge two airlines, you don't still need two of everything.

Boof02671 wrote:
They opened IAH and the addition 250 is for line

When did IAH open? There have been mechanics from other bases going there on an almost weekly basis on road trips to fix planes.

NWAESC wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Guess you dint realize the hundreds of millions of dollars delta makes at TechOps insourcing work which AA chose to get out of.


Then that’s on AA Management, but it's also on he Association for not pushing to capture more of that work.
Boof02671 wrote:
Actually they’ve been trying. Doug is against it

Given the current squabble is about failure to meet aircraft out of service metrics, why would anyone want to take on more work when their own internal work isn't being completed to its fullest? If you know you can't deliver on your existing work; you don't go out and pick up more work unless you are hoping to fail.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:19 am

Increasing headcount doesn’t create redundancies, AA changed their Mtc program to the US one which are,phase checks so more work is done at line stations

AA is hiring to cover the increase of work. The 250 is for line as their is an increase of work and flights.
 
ThunderDome
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:44 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:23 am

I need to jump in here with the view from someone who is actually affected by these negotiations. I have been following this site for a couple years but this finally made me actually create an account and post a reply. Please forgive me if I seem to jump around a bit on items. I am putting things down and I can put my words in order.

First I will stay that both sides, Association and Company have not been 100% accurate. The company has not been 100% accurate in what they say is in the proposition, and the Association has only done things to try and make the company look bad, not necessarily further along negotiations That is my opinion.

Second off, a review of both the Associations proposal and the Companies proposal will be a no vote for myself and at least most of the people that I work with. For these primary reasons. Both proposals permit with out restriction, Supervisors being permitted to do our work without limit. That is just not acceptable.

The company, I wont say has been negotiating in bad faith, but I don't feel it is appropriate to be putting everything on JetNet for all to see, and to be discussing it like they do. That is why we have negotiators. They relay the information back to us members. I agree with an above poster, I believe, Doug Parker and Robert Isom both believe that they have presented an Industry Leading Contract, with is wholly inaccurate with my work group do to it being so limited in being a Union Position. I do not for see them moving much on there proposal unless they absolutely are forced too. Also, Doug for some time kept mentioning an 9% match for the 401k. If you read the actual proposal that's not true. They will provide 5%, regardless of employee contribution. Then will actually Match 4% additional that the employee puts in to the 401k. So they are only actually
Matching" 4%. I believe they can do much better than that. Especially for those in the IAM that have the Pension. Also, the difference in Medical cost, to me is insane.... fine if you decide to "gradually" raise the premium, but, not over night. The fact is, according to AA's own calculator, I will not receive an actual raise when the cost of the medical is brought into the mix. Not to even mention that fact that Station protection is only available for those on Property at DOS. along with that fact that they will not be required to fill any position that is made vacant upon someone retiring or otherwise leaves that position. While yes, it won't permit the company to lay off or fire anyone DOS +1, but it does open the door to contracting out later on as they see fit. There are numerous other items as well that need to be corrected in the companies proposal before I would even be thinking of voting it in.

Now as for the Association, I don't believe they have been 100% above board either. I mention back to my above statement regarding the association allowing company Supervisors to perform my work. I will also state that the behavior of Mr. Samuelson at a town hall meeting was wholly out of line. For someone that is leading the the entire TWU, to act the way that he did, not evening know, Robert Isom's position in the company is just, I don't know... Pretty Sad in my opinion. Also, the Association came out and said that the company demanded the NMB cancel the negotiating that was is the past week. Doug stated in a conversation the with F/A's that is was not the company and they thought it was the Association. Who is lying? I have read both the TWU letter and IAM letters to members and it is interesting the differences. I have found the TWU to be much more militant in their communication to their members. The IAM is a lot more calm in my opinion. Though you do have to read between the lines with them in there letters to the members. Again, I would not vote for the Association contract either.

In regards to IAH. From what I have seen, yes it is now open to AA employees, but it will not be fully active until middle to late next year. That is when they will be fully staffed, and all equipment onsite and planning sending them all of the proper jobs that they are suppose to have. If and when that happens is in the future so I won't get into that.

Regarding the TRO and the Modified TRO that the courts imposed. I was not surprised by the initial TRO that was imposed. It appeared to be pretty standard. Tell those that are in negotiations to not slow down work. Seems easy enough. The modified TRO is a bit of a surprise. The fact that we are mandated to get back to the approximate 77.5% job completion for RON work was a bit surprising to me. Especially when the company can so easy skew that information. In a previous role, it was shown to me, that the amount of information that Airline MX departments have is truly impressive. And it is not set up to actually help the mechanics rove they are working. We will see how all of that goes. I truly believe the FAA should increase there onsite inspections, it will assist the MX department prove the discrepancies they are writing up are actually valid.

I cannot with absolutely prove that MX is or is not slowing down. I also cannot prove the company is increasing the ask every night on the RON but not properly supporting this requirement. Only time will tell.

I can say, that it is my opinion that the NMB need to have more clear and concise communication with both the company and the Association. If you cancel a meeting then, give the exact reason why you cancelled the meeting.
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3562
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:11 pm

ThunderDome wrote:
I need to jump in here with the view from someone who is actually affected by these negotiations. I have been following this site for a couple years but this finally made me actually create an account and post a reply. Please forgive me if I seem to jump around a bit on items. I am putting things down and I can put my words in order.

First I will stay that both sides, Association and Company have not been 100% accurate. The company has not been 100% accurate in what they say is in the proposition, and the Association has only done things to try and make the company look bad, not necessarily further along negotiations That is my opinion.

Second off, a review of both the Associations proposal and the Companies proposal will be a no vote for myself and at least most of the people that I work with. For these primary reasons. Both proposals permit with out restriction, Supervisors being permitted to do our work without limit. That is just not acceptable.

The company, I wont say has been negotiating in bad faith, but I don't feel it is appropriate to be putting everything on JetNet for all to see, and to be discussing it like they do. That is why we have negotiators. They relay the information back to us members. I agree with an above poster, I believe, Doug Parker and Robert Isom both believe that they have presented an Industry Leading Contract, with is wholly inaccurate with my work group do to it being so limited in being a Union Position. I do not for see them moving much on there proposal unless they absolutely are forced too. Also, Doug for some time kept mentioning an 9% match for the 401k. If you read the actual proposal that's not true. They will provide 5%, regardless of employee contribution. Then will actually Match 4% additional that the employee puts in to the 401k. So they are only actually
Matching" 4%. I believe they can do much better than that. Especially for those in the IAM that have the Pension. Also, the difference in Medical cost, to me is insane.... fine if you decide to "gradually" raise the premium, but, not over night. The fact is, according to AA's own calculator, I will not receive an actual raise when the cost of the medical is brought into the mix. Not to even mention that fact that Station protection is only available for those on Property at DOS. along with that fact that they will not be required to fill any position that is made vacant upon someone retiring or otherwise leaves that position. While yes, it won't permit the company to lay off or fire anyone DOS +1, but it does open the door to contracting out later on as they see fit. There are numerous other items as well that need to be corrected in the companies proposal before I would even be thinking of voting it in.

Now as for the Association, I don't believe they have been 100% above board either. I mention back to my above statement regarding the association allowing company Supervisors to perform my work. I will also state that the behavior of Mr. Samuelson at a town hall meeting was wholly out of line. For someone that is leading the the entire TWU, to act the way that he did, not evening know, Robert Isom's position in the company is just, I don't know... Pretty Sad in my opinion. Also, the Association came out and said that the company demanded the NMB cancel the negotiating that was is the past week. Doug stated in a conversation the with F/A's that is was not the company and they thought it was the Association. Who is lying? I have read both the TWU letter and IAM letters to members and it is interesting the differences. I have found the TWU to be much more militant in their communication to their members. The IAM is a lot more calm in my opinion. Though you do have to read between the lines with them in there letters to the members. Again, I would not vote for the Association contract either.

In regards to IAH. From what I have seen, yes it is now open to AA employees, but it will not be fully active until middle to late next year. That is when they will be fully staffed, and all equipment onsite and planning sending them all of the proper jobs that they are suppose to have. If and when that happens is in the future so I won't get into that.

Regarding the TRO and the Modified TRO that the courts imposed. I was not surprised by the initial TRO that was imposed. It appeared to be pretty standard. Tell those that are in negotiations to not slow down work. Seems easy enough. The modified TRO is a bit of a surprise. The fact that we are mandated to get back to the approximate 77.5% job completion for RON work was a bit surprising to me. Especially when the company can so easy skew that information. In a previous role, it was shown to me, that the amount of information that Airline MX departments have is truly impressive. And it is not set up to actually help the mechanics rove they are working. We will see how all of that goes. I truly believe the FAA should increase there onsite inspections, it will assist the MX department prove the discrepancies they are writing up are actually valid.

I cannot with absolutely prove that MX is or is not slowing down. I also cannot prove the company is increasing the ask every night on the RON but not properly supporting this requirement. Only time will tell.

I can say, that it is my opinion that the NMB need to have more clear and concise communication with both the company and the Association. If you cancel a meeting then, give the exact reason why you cancelled the meeting.

This is the best post on this whole thread about the subject and you laid everything out beautifully. One key thing you mention that has been lost is the IAM has been less out there, more behind the scenes, less militant, and less urgent to get a deal done. The difference in tone between the TWU guys, and the IAM guys is striking and telling.

One thing is I think Richard Trumka did not want to see AFL-CIO groups at each others throats so the association was formed kind of at his direction. As we have seen, it has been a disaster for the company and the membership. Sometimes micromanaging from the top just does not work and you need to give more power to the membership. That is a problem with not just the association, but also with the company who uses this same strategy with bad results.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:01 pm

The IAM cities are where the so called maintenance delays are happening is CLT and PHL, they aren’t less Moira this, they are less verbal. And I partook in the IAM Protest here in CLT.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:40 pm

They’ve absolutely been less militant, and less out there comparatively.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:17 pm

The TWU held protests that accomplished nothing.

The IAM side is working safe.

TWU have been under concessions since 2003.
 
N983AN
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:22 pm

People can’t have it both ways and insist the value of the contract reflect the current economic environment and industry structural changes over last decade. Then claim this vaunted IAM medical has dodged two bankruptcies, a transition agreement and the 2014 standalone LUS agreement. Medical costs for all Americans are rising, entitlement spending is monopolizing a growing share of federal and state budgets crowding out funding for education, infrastructure, etc.

Can’t have it both ways people.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:53 pm

Such a defeatist

AA has spent $15 BILLION over the past few years to buyback stock, and to cover all of the Association members in the lower cost, better coverage LUS IAM health insurance is a cost of $39 million a year.

The IAM insurance has survived three rounds of concessions in two bankruptcies, a JCBA in 2008, and the standalone in 2014, if has survived the worst of times why shouldn’t survive the best of times?
 
alasizon
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:54 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
AA has spent $15 BILLION over the past few years to buyback stock, and to cover all of the Association members in the lower cost, better coverage LUS IAM health insurance is a cost of $39 million a year.


AA has a responsibility to their shareholders as well to increase stock value and provide a ROI. Stock buybacks are their version of how that it accomplished. While the stock value has tanked because of operational performance and failure to meet a similar financial performance as their competitors; at least some portion of that 15 billion would have been spent either with buybacks or dividends. The simple fact is that adding an additional 39 million dollar line item isn't going to improve that financial performance without a corresponding reduction elsewhere. Also 39 million may be the cost this year but every year the cost of health coverage will continue to go up.

Boof02671 wrote:
The IAM insurance has survived three rounds of concessions in two bankruptcies, a JCBA in 2008, and the standalone in 2014, if has survived the worst of times why shouldn’t survive the best of times?

Just because something survived then doesn't mean it can survive now without being a large liability to the company. I don't think the new health coverage proposal is the right move either and somewhere in the middle is probably where a reasonable agreement lies but to expect something that survived almost twenty years to continue to be unchanged despite the ever rising cost of health coverage is unreasonable.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:09 pm

alasizon wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
AA has spent $15 BILLION over the past few years to buyback stock, and to cover all of the Association members in the lower cost, better coverage LUS IAM health insurance is a cost of $39 million a year.


AA has a responsibility to their shareholders as well to increase stock value and provide a ROI. Stock buybacks are their version of how that it accomplished. While the stock value has tanked because of operational performance and failure to meet a similar financial performance as their competitors; at least some portion of that 15 billion would have been spent either with buybacks or dividends. The simple fact is that adding an additional 39 million dollar line item isn't going to improve that financial performance without a corresponding reduction elsewhere. Also 39 million may be the cost this year but every year the cost of health coverage will continue to go up.

Boof02671 wrote:
The IAM insurance has survived three rounds of concessions in two bankruptcies, a JCBA in 2008, and the standalone in 2014, if has survived the worst of times why shouldn’t survive the best of times?

Just because something survived then doesn't mean it can survive now without being a large liability to the company. I don't think the new health coverage proposal is the right move either and somewhere in the middle is probably where a reasonable agreement lies but to expect something that survived almost twenty years to continue to be unchanged despite the ever rising cost of health coverage is unreasonable.

But they didn’t increase the value and Wall Street says they have too much debt.

And the cost of the LUS IAM insurance has gone up in those 20 years.

And AA refuses a cap and refuses to let the unions audit. And you do know AA is self-insured?
 
twincommander
Posts: 212
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:54 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:13 pm

[quote="ThunderDome"][/quote]

Welcome to Airliners.

Having worked with both MX groups, and seeing what im seeing between the LUS and LAA fleets, I couldnt agree with your post more. I have been seeing LAA aircraft with write ups that should have been properly handled at MX bases, not at some outer rim planet station with little support. MOC is constantly getting their butts handed to them. For us who rely on MOC to support your aircraft, we really want to see their workload decrease...

I do hope you guys get an agreement soon.
 
N983AN
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:30 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Such a defeatist

AA has spent $15 BILLION over the past few years to buyback stock, and to cover all of the Association members in the lower cost, better coverage LUS IAM health insurance is a cost of $39 million a year.

The IAM insurance has survived three rounds of concessions in two bankruptcies, a JCBA in 2008, and the standalone in 2014, if has survived the worst of times why shouldn’t survive the best of times?


Dude you literally repeated everything I pro-acted to above, you are such a broken record.

Open your eyes, health care costs everywhere are rising and the LAA coverage today is far superior to what most private and many public sector employees enjoy. Look at how spending on Medicare and Medicaid are taking front and center role in political debates today and crowding out funding on education, infrastructure and even defense.

LAA shouldn’t be denied pay raises and other improvements for the IAMs tantrum over their passé healthcare and loser underfunded IAMNPF. The IAM has tried hanging onto archaic gold plated benefits and onerous workrules at Eastern and TWA and they don’t have much to show for that today.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:39 pm

LAA insurance sucks compared to LUS.

Not the IAM’s fault you are under a bankruptcy contract.

Maybe AA shouldn’t be required to pay $907 million this year into LAA’s frozen pensions that are underfunded to a tune of $6.7 billion.

And keep up with the insults and name calling on the superior LUS benefits.

You should be wanting the better benefits for all and not want concessions on the LUS side.

You should go into management with your attitude of screw the IAM side as long as you get yours.

Denied pay Raises? You got a 26% raise already.

And the IAM isn’t holding up anything. Go ask Alex Garcia, Gary Peterson, or Mike Mays.
Last edited by Boof02671 on Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
N983AN
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:47 pm

At least LAA plan is being funded and the company is required to cover shortfall unlike IAMNPF.

When were benefits cut last?
 
alasizon
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:01 am

Boof02671 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
AA has spent $15 BILLION over the past few years to buyback stock, and to cover all of the Association members in the lower cost, better coverage LUS IAM health insurance is a cost of $39 million a year.


AA has a responsibility to their shareholders as well to increase stock value and provide a ROI. Stock buybacks are their version of how that it accomplished. While the stock value has tanked because of operational performance and failure to meet a similar financial performance as their competitors; at least some portion of that 15 billion would have been spent either with buybacks or dividends. The simple fact is that adding an additional 39 million dollar line item isn't going to improve that financial performance without a corresponding reduction elsewhere. Also 39 million may be the cost this year but every year the cost of health coverage will continue to go up.


But they didn’t increase the value and Wall Street says they have too much debt.


Which was exactly what I stated. But again, that was due to failure to meet operational performance and failure to meet financial performance compared to their peers.

Boof02671 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
The IAM insurance has survived three rounds of concessions in two bankruptcies, a JCBA in 2008, and the standalone in 2014, if has survived the worst of times why shouldn’t survive the best of times?

Just because something survived then doesn't mean it can survive now without being a large liability to the company. I don't think the new health coverage proposal is the right move either and somewhere in the middle is probably where a reasonable agreement lies but to expect something that survived almost twenty years to continue to be unchanged despite the ever rising cost of health coverage is unreasonable.

And the cost of the LUS IAM insurance has gone up in those 20 years.

And AA refuses a cap and refuses to let the unions audit. And you do know AA is self-insured?

I certainly am aware that AA is self-insured, as is Envoy, PSA, Piedmont and just about every other airline out there. I enjoy a relatively low health insurance premium each month coupled with great coverage but that cost is reflected in my lower overall salary which makes it a trade-off that I'm comfortable with. A CBA is cost neutral so if everyone wants lower health insurance premiums (which is completely reasonable); you have to be comfortable in either conceding on wages, positions covered or work rules.

When it comes to refusing to agree to a cap, nothing I have seen has indicated that AA is refusing an overall cap; rather the package that was put out there doesn't have one and the Association can't come together as a united front to put together a meet in the middle proposal that includes a cap.

It all goes back to the fact that the Association isn't operating in the best interest of all of its members and isn't being transparent with what actually is happening and AA has grown tired of dealing with the Association and that is why items are being discussed/revealed via Jetnet and in town halls.

The people who are suffering the most are the fleet service employees & mechanics who aren't heavily pro-union or pro-company and are getting tossed around by both sides, MOC and the customers. The frustration is very evident with all of employees caught in the middle and I'd estimate at least 50% of covered employees are flat out frustrated at both sides and that drags down morale.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
N983AN
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:06 am

I have a lot more confidence in what the the company puts out who PAYS ME in a relationship of consensual, voluntary exchange than the unelected, undemocratic and inept TWU-IAM Association which requires payment of dues/agency fees in a non-consensual manner.
 
ThunderDome
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:44 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:34 am

Boof02671, can you clarify what you said in response #257? I am not understanding what you mean by "less Moira" Are you also alluding to the TWU is not working safe with you response in #259? I do know that when I had to work with a TWU RON crew in a Class 1 station, the Lead was IRATE to have to work an LUS aircraft. It was kind of entertaining to also see him adjust his language once he found I was IAM though he still was not happy to be working an LUS aircraft.

N983AN I am not really seeing what your saying. Are you saying the IAM HAS to change there medical, just because the rest of the company has a singular medical plan?

AA also has a responsibilities to their employee's because just like without a few Part 119's in the company, with out employees' there wont be a company and the shareholders wont have much money. There is a line that has to be balanced. Should AA have paid a little bit more towards there debt I believe so. But hey, they didn't ask me my opinion. Or apparently read A.Net haha.

I had to look up to see whom McGee and UGE is. I am not really sure why you bring them up since they are not involved in these negotiations. Because they have IAM unions? Maybe bring up a Machine shop that is IAM? If it is such a bad contract the employees should not have voted it in.

alasizon, the package that AA put out, they call it as there contract. That is what they will sign today without hesitation or change. Therefore, if it is not in there "contract" it does not exist. Just like the early out. Its only available if the company decides it operational acceptable. There is nothing in the contract saying how it will be determined and distributed. The little I have dealt with middle to semi upper management it is completely evident that you need to handle them with gloves and that you need to protect your self anytime you are dealing with them. If you do what they tell you and something happens they did not expect then they will try and blame the employee. I have already seen it a few times.

Reading all of this, and then thinking about it. Has anyone thought, that merging the TWU and IAM is just to big. There are such huge differences between the contracts. Why should I as IAM give up my Pension, so that the TWU can get the same Holiday pay as IAM. Why should the TWU give up something they have that is better than IAM so that I can have 401k with matching? I am starting to now wonder if there is just to much of a divide between the two groups to over come any time soon. Also, just think of all of the groups that are in this all at the same time. Mechanics, Inspection, Planning, Fleet, QA Auditors, Cleaners, De-Ice, Caterers, Leads, I read the M&R proposal and it had 19 groups. And that's not even all of them. Because M&R does not even include the Fleet. But guess, what if the Mechanics want to slow up the negotiations, Fleet would "Suffer". Until EVERYONE gets there contracts approved, nobody gets a contract. For the Association anyway. Kinda stupid in my opinion.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:28 am

Thunder dome if you read the company’s motions they listed CLT and PHL as the two main stations they accuse of a slowdown, as well as PHX.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:36 am

American Airlines was just as much to blame for delays as mechanics and weather, pilots union says

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ame ... union-says
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:40 am

I think you guys are missing one huge aspect on the insurance. We have over 100k employees. The company isn't going to have 10k on the Association Plan and everyone else on the more costly plan. That ultimately is not sustainable.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:49 am

UpNAWAy wrote:
I think you guys are missing one huge aspect on the insurance. We have over 100k employees. The company isn't going to have 10k on the Association Plan and everyone else on the more costly plan. That ultimately is not sustainable.

Apparently you don’t understand that at LUS only the IAM had the cheaper insurance, all other unionized groups didn’t have it nor did they seek, they had four opportunities to seek it and they didn’t.

So your post is against already what has happened.

The Association negotiates for its 30,000 represented employees, not the other 70,000. It’s called negotiations for a reason.

$39 million to give it to all the Association represented employees, you do understand AA is self-insured, just as US was.
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3562
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:16 am

Boof02671 wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
I think you guys are missing one huge aspect on the insurance. We have over 100k employees. The company isn't going to have 10k on the Association Plan and everyone else on the more costly plan. That ultimately is not sustainable.

Apparently you don’t understand that at LUS only the IAM had the cheaper insurance, all other unionized groups didn’t have it nor did they seek, they had four opportunities to seek it and they didn’t.

So your post is against already what has happened.

The Association negotiates for its 30,000 represented employees, not the other 70,000. It’s called negotiations for a reason.

$39 million to give it to all the Association represented employees, you do understand AA is self-insured, just as US was.

This is not true. The TWU represented dispatchers at LUS had the exact same insurance that the IAM still has. It got lost in the new contract, but the dispatchers gained a ton financially. I don't know what the Flight Attendants had at US prior to the merger, but remember the Flight Attendants never actually ratified their contract. A deal was cut behind the groups back to accept binding arbitration. The membership rejected the contract that the arbitrator proposed, but because it was binding, it was imposed anyways.

Also, in reference to the association plan, many groups on the property who have ratified joint contracts have me too clauses. What this means in a nutshell is if the Association is successful in negotiating IAM medical, the groups with the me too clause would also get the IAM medical.
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3562
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:22 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Thunder dome if you read the company’s motions they listed CLT and PHL as the two main stations they accuse of a slowdown, as well as PHX.

Here is the funny thing about that. CLT and PHL are both LUS stations that are heavy with LUS metal, and they see their fair share of some of the oldest narrowbody metal in the AA fleet, plus the 190 fleet at PHL which requires some TLC. Older frames are naturally going to require more TLC than newer planes, such as the LAA airbus products and a good chunk of the 737 fleet. I can easily see the issues here. I know what the company is accusing, but from my own observation a lot more is happening in LAA stations than LUS stations.

Its a complicated issue, and I would love to see more micro analysis of everything, rather than a macro analysis that a first year statistics student can come up with for the company.
 
Boof02671
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:22 am

apodino wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
I think you guys are missing one huge aspect on the insurance. We have over 100k employees. The company isn't going to have 10k on the Association Plan and everyone else on the more costly plan. That ultimately is not sustainable.

Apparently you don’t understand that at LUS only the IAM had the cheaper insurance, all other unionized groups didn’t have it nor did they seek, they had four opportunities to seek it and they didn’t.

So your post is against already what has happened.

The Association negotiates for its 30,000 represented employees, not the other 70,000. It’s called negotiations for a reason.

$39 million to give it to all the Association represented employees, you do understand AA is self-insured, just as US was.

This is not true. The TWU represented dispatchers at LUS had the exact same insurance that the IAM still has. It got lost in the new contract, but the dispatchers gained a ton financially. I don't know what the Flight Attendants had at US prior to the merger, but remember the Flight Attendants never actually ratified their contract. A deal was cut behind the groups back to accept binding arbitration. The membership rejected the contract that the arbitrator proposed, but because it was binding, it was imposed anyways.

Also, in reference to the association plan, many groups on the property who have ratified joint contracts have me too clauses. What this means in a nutshell is if the Association is successful in negotiating IAM medical, the groups with the me too clause would also get the IAM medical.

There are no me too clauses and the APFA most certainly did reject their CBA and had limited arbitration for open items, insurance was not one of them the APFA agreed to AA’s insurance and the former LUS FAs got a one time bonus to make up for the first year of higher costs.

So everything they agreed to was accepted.
Last edited by Boof02671 on Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:23 am

apodino wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Thunder dome if you read the company’s motions they listed CLT and PHL as the two main stations they accuse of a slowdown, as well as PHX.

Here is the funny thing about that. CLT and PHL are both LUS stations that are heavy with LUS metal, and they see their fair share of some of the oldest narrowbody metal in the AA fleet, plus the 190 fleet at PHL which requires some TLC. Older frames are naturally going to require more TLC than newer planes, such as the LAA airbus products and a good chunk of the 737 fleet. I can easily see the issues here. I know what the company is accusing, but from my own observation a lot more is happening in LAA stations than LUS stations.

Its a complicated issue, and I would love to see more micro analysis of everything, rather than a macro analysis that a first year statistics student can come up with for the company.

Not according to their court filings.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:40 pm

N983AN wrote:
At least LAA plan is being funded and the company is required to cover shortfall unlike IAMNPF.

When were benefits cut last?


The Plan is in trouble.

Much better for the tank and file to be pushing for an industry-leading fixed contribution and match.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:56 pm

Actually it’s not as the Trustees are taking care of it.
 
NWAESC
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Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:12 pm

Actually, it is. A lot of it.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:36 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Actually, it is. A lot of it.

Learn to read the facts. The Trustees have taken care of it and have a a federally approved plan, AA has agreed to the preferred plan, therefore AA IAM represented employees will not be taking any cuts. I’d worry more about AA’s frozen pensions being almost $7 billion underfunded and AA has to pay $907 million into those frozen plans this per AA’s 10k.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:19 pm

You can insult me all you want. It won't change fact that the Plan is in serious trouble. Anyone that "knows how to read" can see it for themselves.

IMO, if it doesn't survive at AA (I mean as an active plan), it's likely done for.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:15 pm

Explain to me how it’s in serious trouble?

It was in the yellow, the Trustees voluntarily put it in to the red so they could come up with a plan so NO benefits will be cut.

And they exactly what they did, so no IAM member at AA and UA will be taking a cut.

Go watch the videos andv
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:36 pm

Stop with the misinformation.

And you don’t have to take my word for it. All you have to do is go to their own website and/or read their own letters they sent out.

It’s a pretty bleak picture.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
OB1504
Posts: 3653
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:02 pm

This thread can largely be summarized as 6 pages of one person (who doesn’t even work for AA?) yelling the same things at everybody else.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:15 pm

Imagine being a person that spends their days bellowing at strangers on the 'net...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:41 pm

I’ve watched the videos, read the letters and met with the AGCs who went to the training class. It’s auite evident you don’t understand it’s a multiemployer plan.

They made some changes to the early outs and came up with two paths to make sure the plan goes back to the green. Like I said AA agreed to the preferred plan, so no cuts.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:54 pm

If a boat springs a leak and you start bailing, it doesn't magically make it seaworthy again. This plan is in trouble.

And what else would you expect an AGC to say? Who put on this training class?

Again, stop with the misinformation.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:35 pm

The IAMNPF, and they and the IAM could be sued if they lie and the PBGC and the DOL would go after them.

But you know more than the people who actually run the plan.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:30 pm

So the IAMNPF ran a training session to make sure the AGC's had all the right talking points. Got it.

Meanwhile, the membership has a TRO around their neck, JCBA talks held up (primarily) because of a failing pension plan, and no light at the end of the tunnel.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:14 am

You do realize the DOL and a PBGC had to approve of the plan and materials?

But hey your a DL employee knows more than the DOL, PBGC and the DOL.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:43 am

You do realize you’re advocating for something that will harm the workforce, right?

Stop with the misinformation.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:30 am

NWAESC wrote:
You do realize you’re advocating for something that will harm the workforce, right?

Stop with the misinformation.

It’s not going to harm the members, stop lying.
 
usairways787
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:42 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:54 am

Boof02671 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
You do realize you’re advocating for something that will harm the workforce, right?

Stop with the misinformation.

It’s not going to harm the members, stop lying.


Enough of spamming the board. You're making us look bad.
Making bag smashing great again
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3562
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:33 pm

AA reported today, and usually Doug does a town hall with the employees after the earnings call. The last few quarters have seen the TWU make some noise and had some very animated conversations with management. Today there was none of that. I believe that TWU leadership was in the room and that Doug did not call on them at all, and also made it clear that the company felt they win the injunction as they are still not happy with the operation. It does sound like some sort of NMB session is scheduled for Mid August. We shall see what happens.
 
Boof02671
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:08 am

 
bob75013
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:30 am

Boof02671 wrote:


If true, it appears that the union has kcufed up.
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3562
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:14 am

bob75013 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:


If true, it appears that the union has kcufed up.

They did that a long time ago. Parker and Isom can file these TRO motions and get them granted all they want. What they fail to realize is the membership doesn't care if the Union is found in contempt or not, and I suspect this legal action could have the opposite effect of what Parker and Isom are trying to accomplish because there are plenty of members who are fed up with both the company and the Union and would like nothing more than to stick it to both groups. Not listening to the unions requests for compliance is a perfect way to accomplish this.

I suspect if a permanent injunction is granted, the operation is going to get even worse, for the reasons I have mentioned.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:05 pm

I wouldn't bet against that.

Having read the latest filing, I also think the company might be overreaching- reading the language, it's hard not to imagine them clutching their pearls.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
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