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NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:16 am

Here's a fact: Union leaders will now have to go station to station telling the membership to play nice... under the watchful eye of management.

Tell us again how that's a victory.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:18 am

NWAESC wrote:
Here's a fact: Union leaders will now have to go station to station telling the membership to play nice... under the watchful eye of management.

Tell us again how that's a victory.

I never said it was a victory, and the leadership has already been doing this they were in CLT last Thursday.

A shame how people bash working class people and love the company.

And this case is far from over.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:21 am

Not true, there is no helping hands agreement.


That's because the Association gave it away in exchange for a raise. Another myopic blunder that gave Parker and Isom exactly what they wanted.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:24 am

NWAESC wrote:
Not true, there is no helping hands agreement.


That's because the Association gave it away in exchange for a raise. Another myopic blunder that gave Parker and Isom exactly what they wanted.

Do you know how those raises were obtained?

With such a vast knowledge of airline labor, why aren’t you CEO instead of Bastain?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:24 am

It’s funny. It’s like climate change. Their is absolutely no way to actually gauge what is normal performance and what is abnormal. You can’t force someone to accept overtime especially if they have to pick up theirs child. It’s just AA flexing muscles and using intimidation tactics. The judge doesn’t understand what the AA Techs do. Therefore he isn’t truly qualified to order normalization of the work the Techs do or understand safety. This is sad.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1647
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:29 am

Boof02671 wrote:
It’s funny. It’s like climate change. Their is absolutely no way to actually gauge what is normal performance and what is abnormal. You can’t force someone to accept overtime especially if they have to pick up theirs child. It’s just AA flexing muscles and using intimidation tactics. The judge doesn’t understand what the AA Techs do. Therefore he isn’t truly qualified to order normalization of the work the Techs do or understand safety. This is sad.


Now no one else understands.since this has NEVER EVER happened before in the history of organized labor.

This is like anti-vaxxers. There is no logic because you can mental gymnastic your way out of it.
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Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:44 am

Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
It’s funny. It’s like climate change. Their is absolutely no way to actually gauge what is normal performance and what is abnormal. You can’t force someone to accept overtime especially if they have to pick up theirs child. It’s just AA flexing muscles and using intimidation tactics. The judge doesn’t understand what the AA Techs do. Therefore he isn’t truly qualified to order normalization of the work the Techs do or understand safety. This is sad.


Now no one else understands.since this has NEVER EVER happened before in the history of organized labor.

This is like anti-vaxxers. There is no logic because you can mental gymnastic your way out of it.

You must not have a good knowledge of airline labor. This has occurred at numerous airlines over the past 50 years. Company can’t win in negotiations so they go to court. This scents been done over and over.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:45 am

The fact is the workforce at AA has been consistently let down by the Association. It’s hard not to feel sorry for them.

It’s even harder to understand how someone will constantly defend subpar representation. Probably a low level manager sent online to disrupt things.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:48 am

NWAESC wrote:
The fact is the workforce at AA has been consistently let down by the Association. It’s hard not to feel sorry for them.

It’s even harder to understand how someone will constantly defend subpar representation. Probably a low level manager sent online to disrupt things.

Explain how you can force the company to negotiate an agreement, the RLA is archaic and is always in favor to the company not labor.

Heck there weren’t even airlines in 1926 when the law was enacted.

I’ve been in two different negotiating committees. What’s your airline labor experience?
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:51 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Explain how you can force the company to negotiate an agreement...


You start by NOT willingly giving away your leverage...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:56 am

NWAESC wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Explain how you can force the company to negotiate an agreement...


You start by NOT willingly giving away your leverage...

Doesn’t work that way. They are in a section 6 negotiations.

Look at WN seven years to get an agreement and all they got was money, no work nothing.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:11 am

Look at you trying to deflect.

This is about AA and their TRO. Stay on topic, please. I’d hate for another thread to get derailed. Maybe that’s your intent?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:49 am

More deflection. Thanks for proving my point. Have a nice evening.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:17 am

NWAESC wrote:
More deflection. Thanks for proving my point. Have a nice evening.

No deflection, too bad you don’t like the facts to get in your way of anti-union biases.

It’s all relevant and yet you haven’t refuted one iota of what I posted.
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3561
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:56 am

Boof02671 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Explain how you can force the company to negotiate an agreement...


You start by NOT willingly giving away your leverage...

Doesn’t work that way. They are in a section 6 negotiations.

Look at WN seven years to get an agreement and all they got was money, no work nothing.

I am going to raise the BS flag here. This only became section 6 last year when the old TWU contract became amendable, prior to that it was simply a negotiation to merge the two existing contracts. And what NWA was referring to is the fact that the union gave the company cross utilization outside the negotiations in exchange for slight wage increases, but practically nothing else and this was leverage they had to extract more out of the company. This was a bad tactical error by the association.

I am not anti union, but the current association is hurting its membership as much as the company does right now. When your union doesn't do its job to represent you, and the company is trying to screw you at the same time, what other recourse do you as a member have?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:57 am

apodino wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:

You start by NOT willingly giving away your leverage...

Doesn’t work that way. They are in a section 6 negotiations.

Look at WN seven years to get an agreement and all they got was money, no work nothing.

I am going to raise the BS flag here. This only became section 6 last year when the old TWU contract became amendable, prior to that it was simply a negotiation to merge the two existing contracts. And what NWA was referring to is the fact that the union gave the company cross utilization outside the negotiations in exchange for slight wage increases, but practically nothing else and this was leverage they had to extract more out of the company. This was a bad tactical error by the association.

I am not anti union, but the current association is hurting its membership as much as the company does right now. When your union doesn't do its job to represent you, and the company is trying to screw you at the same time, what other recourse do you as a member have?

Once again, both LUS and LAA became amendable at the same time.

You do realize the JCBA is almost done, open issues are Scope, Retirement, Vacation and Wages. The have TAed over 30 articles in both Maintenance and Ramp JCBAs. It’s not a simple task putting together two totally and distinct CBAs. They got a 26% raise and lay-off and station protection, and cross utilization is not going on systemwide. All the other airlines were way ahead. So they achieved a 26% raise, that is not a slight raise and the Association also achieved an increase in pension contributions for LUS IAM members.

How is the union screwing its members?

Have you ever been on a negotiating committee in the airlines?

I have and the antiquated RLA is the problem.

You do realize the company is asking for concessions?

It takes two parties to achieve a CBA, and yet you and others give Parker a pass.

Doggie stated numerous times he will give the Association an industry leading contract, yet in five years he hasn’t.

They are asking for the following:
1. Increases of outsourcing and a loss of 2,200 Mechanic jobs in heavy maintenance.
2. Increase of outsourcing of line maintenance and a loss of 1,000 Mechanic jobs.
3. Elimination of Facilities/Plant Maintenance which is a loss of jobs.
4. As people retire, die or leave the company those jobs will not be replaced.
5. Elimination of catering which is a loss of hundreds if not a 1,000 jobs.
6. Only having ramp doing “Core Work”, which is unloading and loading planes, which is a loss of thousands of jobs.
7. Elimination of deicing, loss of jobs.
8. Freezing of the IAMPF, and replace with 401k contribution and match, and it’s concessionary as not everyone will contribute so the company saves money.
9. Elimination of the LUS IAM Member Medical insurance which is an increase of several thousand dollars and less coverage.
10. Increased outsourcing of GSE and elimination of jobs.

And that’s just some of it.

Why don’t you take the time and watch the videos the Association put out to refute the company?

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/05/16/assoc ... -straight/
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:31 am

apodino wrote:
I am not anti union, but the current association is hurting its membership as much as the company does right now. When your union doesn't do its job to represent you, and the company is trying to screw you at the same time, what other recourse do you as a member have?


Nailed it.


boof02671 wrote:
You do realize the JCBA is almost done, open issues are Scope, Retirement, Vacation and Wages.


And those 4 articles are pretty much the foundation of any contract, so they're really not even close to being done.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:36 am

NWAESC wrote:
apodino wrote:
I am not anti union, but the current association is hurting its membership as much as the company does right now. When your union doesn't do its job to represent you, and the company is trying to screw you at the same time, what other recourse do you as a member have?


Nailed it.


boof02671 wrote:
You do realize the JCBA is almost done, open issues are Scope, Retirement, Vacation and Wages.


And those 4 articles are pretty much the foundation of any contract, so they're really not even close to being done.

30 plus articles done, four to go.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:47 am

Yeah, the 4 biggest ones. That's like building a house and saying, "we haven't poured the foundation or framed it yet, but we've picked out the fixtures for the bathrooms!"

IOW, talks are closer to square one than anything else.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:10 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Yeah, the 4 biggest ones. That's like building a house and saying, "we haven't poured the foundation or framed it yet, but we've picked out the fixtures for the bathrooms!"

IOW, talks are closer to square one than anything else.

Not true at all every article in a CBA is important. But yes the meat of the CBA is where both sides can’t agree, and yet you give Doug a pass every post.

He promised an Industry Leading Contract, so it’s been five years, where is it?

And AA us going to be a crap show, all departments of the flight operations are having issues, go ask the frontline employees.

And APA (Pilots) and APFA (Flight Attendants) are entering Section 6 negotiations also, and those unions want improvements over their bankruptcy CBAs.

Strap in, and buckle up it’s going to be an interesting ride.
 
incitatus
Posts: 3299
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:26 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
[(...)
Doggie stated numerous times he will give the Association an industry leading contract, yet in five years he hasn’t.

They are asking for the following:
1. Increases of outsourcing and a loss of 2,200 Mechanic jobs in heavy maintenance.
2. Increase of outsourcing of line maintenance and a loss of 1,000 Mechanic jobs.
3. Elimination of Facilities/Plant Maintenance which is a loss of jobs.
4. As people retire, die or leave the company those jobs will not be replaced.
5. Elimination of catering which is a loss of hundreds if not a 1,000 jobs.
6. Only having ramp doing “Core Work”, which is unloading and loading planes, which is a loss of thousands of jobs.
7. Elimination of deicing, loss of jobs.
8. Freezing of the IAMPF, and replace with 401k contribution and match, and it’s concessionary as not everyone will contribute so the company saves money.
9. Elimination of the LUS IAM Member Medical insurance which is an increase of several thousand dollars and less coverage.
10. Increased outsourcing of GSE and elimination of jobs.

And that’s just some of it.

Why don’t you take the time and watch the videos the Association put out to refute the company?

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/05/16/assoc ... -straight/


You make it sound like a lot of people will be fired, right? But that is not true, is it?
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:44 pm

incitatus wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
[(...)
Doggie stated numerous times he will give the Association an industry leading contract, yet in five years he hasn’t.

They are asking for the following:
1. Increases of outsourcing and a loss of 2,200 Mechanic jobs in heavy maintenance.
2. Increase of outsourcing of line maintenance and a loss of 1,000 Mechanic jobs.
3. Elimination of Facilities/Plant Maintenance which is a loss of jobs.
4. As people retire, die or leave the company those jobs will not be replaced.
5. Elimination of catering which is a loss of hundreds if not a 1,000 jobs.
6. Only having ramp doing “Core Work”, which is unloading and loading planes, which is a loss of thousands of jobs.
7. Elimination of deicing, loss of jobs.
8. Freezing of the IAMPF, and replace with 401k contribution and match, and it’s concessionary as not everyone will contribute so the company saves money.
9. Elimination of the LUS IAM Member Medical insurance which is an increase of several thousand dollars and less coverage.
10. Increased outsourcing of GSE and elimination of jobs.

And that’s just some of it.

Why don’t you take the time and watch the videos the Association put out to refute the company?

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/05/16/assoc ... -straight/


You make it sound like a lot of people will be fired, right? But that is not true, is it?

I didn’t say that at all.

Read point #4.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:19 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
Yeah, the 4 biggest ones. That's like building a house and saying, "we haven't poured the foundation or framed it yet, but we've picked out the fixtures for the bathrooms!"

IOW, talks are closer to square one than anything else.

Not true at all every article in a CBA is important. But yes the meat of the CBA is where both sides can’t agree, and yet you give Doug a pass every post.

He promised an Industry Leading Contract, so it’s been five years, where is it?

And AA us going to be a crap show, all departments of the flight operations are having issues, go ask the frontline employees.

And APA (Pilots) and APFA (Flight Attendants) are entering Section 6 negotiations also, and those unions want improvements over their bankruptcy CBAs.

Strap in, and buckle up it’s going to be an interesting ride.


So what contract (or non union equivalent pay, etc) would be more industry leading out there than what AA has offered the Union?

Southwest? United? Delta? Spirit? Frontier? Republic? Skywest? Alaska?

You keep saying AA hasn’t offered an industry leading contract but then say other places that Southwest and United contracts would be concessionary. What other contract would be better and be more industry leading?

I’m a bit sick of all the AA Mechanic shenanigans at ORD delaying my flights. I’m flying United more than ever now.
Which other contract would be more industry leading?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:26 pm

Each other airline CBA aren’t industry leading in all areas, just pieces.

Doug has stated numerous times he will give an ILC CBA, and hasnt come through.

Neither Isom nor Parker has been in negotiations, and have never sent anyone to the table that has the power to do so.

Remember Isom was at NW when they broke AMFA.

The stock is in the crapper Wall Street isn’t happy, yet the BOD fiddles why AA burns.

Their debt level is way to high, and they’ve spent $15 billion on stock buybacks and the stock is still not where it should be.

It says it all when the top executives have to make major personal stock buys to try and appease Wall Street.

https://simplywall.st/stocks/us/transpo ... nce-sheet/
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:37 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Each other airline CBA aren’t industry leading in all areas, just pieces.

Doug has stated numerous times he will give an ILC CBA, and hasnt come through.

Neither Isom nor Parker has been in negotiations, and have never sent anyone to the table that has the power to do so.

Remember Isom was at NW when the broke AMFA.

The stock is in the crapper Wall Street isn’t happy, yet the BOD fiddles why AA burns.

Their debt level is way to high, and they’ve spent $15 billion on stock buybacks and the stock is still not where it should be.

It says it all when the top executives have to make major personal stock buys to try and appease Wall Street.

https://simplywall.st/stocks/us/transpo ... nce-sheet/

Again. Looking at the whole contract. Which other contract is more industry leading?
Southwest? Delta? United? Alaska?

Or are you saying, as a whole, the AA offer is industry leading vs Southwest, United, and Delta (their equivalent)?

If not. Which other contract is more industry leading? That’s literally the definition of “industry leading” contract. So which other contract would be more industry leading? It’s a pretty simple question.

Just an outside observer here, but it does seem like, reading your own posts, it’s never occurred to you that an industry leading contract is already there. I get that it’s not what you want but it sounds like it is industry leading.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:44 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Each other airline CBA aren’t industry leading in all areas, just pieces.

Doug has stated numerous times he will give an ILC CBA, and hasnt come through.

Neither Isom nor Parker has been in negotiations, and have never sent anyone to the table that has the power to do so.

Remember Isom was at NW when the broke AMFA.

The stock is in the crapper Wall Street isn’t happy, yet the BOD fiddles why AA burns.

Their debt level is way to high, and they’ve spent $15 billion on stock buybacks and the stock is still not where it should be.

It says it all when the top executives have to make major personal stock buys to try and appease Wall Street.

https://simplywall.st/stocks/us/transpo ... nce-sheet/

Again. Looking at the whole contract. Which other contract is more industry leading?
Southwest? Delta? United? Alaska?

Or are you saying, as a whole, the AA offer is industry leading vs Southwest, United, and Delta (their equivalent)?

It sounds like you are saying that but it’s never occurred to you that the contract offer is industry leading.

If not. Which other contract is more industry leading? That’s literally the definition of “industry leading” contract. So which other contract would be more industry leading? It’s a pretty simple question.

Just an outside observer here, but it does seem like, reading your own posts, it’s never occurred to you that an industry leading contract is already there. I get that it’s not what you want but it sounds like it is industry leading.

Once again AA’s incomplete offer is not ILC, what is so hard to understand that?

ILC means it’s total value, workrules etc are above the rest of the industry.

Hell no it’s not better nor above the others. AA is asking for concessions, I’ve already posted numerous items they proposed.

AA’s goal is to be a virtual airline, and we all have seen this before ie Valujet.

Just spoke to the second highest negotiator for the IAM, they don’t expect a resolution anytime soon. He is in town doing what the judge ordered.

It’s going to be the most epic situation ever, besides NW.

Go watch the videos.

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/05/16/assoc ... -straight/
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:49 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Each other airline CBA aren’t industry leading in all areas, just pieces.

Doug has stated numerous times he will give an ILC CBA, and hasnt come through.

Neither Isom nor Parker has been in negotiations, and have never sent anyone to the table that has the power to do so.

Remember Isom was at NW when the broke AMFA.

The stock is in the crapper Wall Street isn’t happy, yet the BOD fiddles why AA burns.

Their debt level is way to high, and they’ve spent $15 billion on stock buybacks and the stock is still not where it should be.

It says it all when the top executives have to make major personal stock buys to try and appease Wall Street.

https://simplywall.st/stocks/us/transpo ... nce-sheet/

Again. Looking at the whole contract. Which other contract is more industry leading?
Southwest? Delta? United? Alaska?

Or are you saying, as a whole, the AA offer is industry leading vs Southwest, United, and Delta (their equivalent)?

It sounds like you are saying that but it’s never occurred to you that the contract offer is industry leading.

If not. Which other contract is more industry leading? That’s literally the definition of “industry leading” contract. So which other contract would be more industry leading? It’s a pretty simple question.

Just an outside observer here, but it does seem like, reading your own posts, it’s never occurred to you that an industry leading contract is already there. I get that it’s not what you want but it sounds like it is industry leading.

Once again AA’s incomplete offer is not ILC, what is so hard to understand that?

ILC means it’s total value, workrules etc are above the rest of the industry.

Hell no it’s not better nor above the others. AA is asking for concessions, I’ve already posted numerous items they proposed.

AA’s goal is to be a virtual airline, and we all have seen this before ie Valujet.

Just spoke to the second highest negotiator for the IAM, they don’t expect a resolution anytime soon. He is in town doing what the judge ordered.

It’s going to be the most epic situation ever, besides NW.

Go watch the videos.

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/05/16/assoc ... -straight/


Which one is it not better than?
Delta? Southwest? United? Alaska?
Which one is more industry leading? Name it.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:54 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
It’s going to be the most epic situation ever, besides NW.


...And we all saw how that turned out..

Is that really what you want? You sure you were a negotiator?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:55 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Again. Looking at the whole contract. Which other contract is more industry leading?
Southwest? Delta? United? Alaska?

Or are you saying, as a whole, the AA offer is industry leading vs Southwest, United, and Delta (their equivalent)?

It sounds like you are saying that but it’s never occurred to you that the contract offer is industry leading.

If not. Which other contract is more industry leading? That’s literally the definition of “industry leading” contract. So which other contract would be more industry leading? It’s a pretty simple question.

Just an outside observer here, but it does seem like, reading your own posts, it’s never occurred to you that an industry leading contract is already there. I get that it’s not what you want but it sounds like it is industry leading.

Once again AA’s incomplete offer is not ILC, what is so hard to understand that?

ILC means it’s total value, workrules etc are above the rest of the industry.

Hell no it’s not better nor above the others. AA is asking for concessions, I’ve already posted numerous items they proposed.

AA’s goal is to be a virtual airline, and we all have seen this before ie Valujet.

Just spoke to the second highest negotiator for the IAM, they don’t expect a resolution anytime soon. He is in town doing what the judge ordered.

It’s going to be the most epic situation ever, besides NW.

Go watch the videos.

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/05/16/assoc ... -straight/


Which one is it not better than?
Delta? Southwest? United? Alaska?
Which one is more industry leading? Name it.


None of them are, I already posted that to you. Pieces are better, not a whole CBA.

Delta has no contract, they are non-union, employees at will.
Southwest is better in wages and 401k contributions, WN has 2,700 mechanics for 753 planes, they outsource 77% of their maintenance.
United only has a better wage and vacation, and they outsource majority of airframe overhaul
AS is not even in the big leagues.

AA has 9,700 mechanics for 965 planes.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:00 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Once again AA’s incomplete offer is not ILC, what is so hard to understand that?

ILC means it’s total value, workrules etc are above the rest of the industry.

Hell no it’s not better nor above the others. AA is asking for concessions, I’ve already posted numerous items they proposed.

AA’s goal is to be a virtual airline, and we all have seen this before ie Valujet.

Just spoke to the second highest negotiator for the IAM, they don’t expect a resolution anytime soon. He is in town doing what the judge ordered.

It’s going to be the most epic situation ever, besides NW.

Go watch the videos.

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/05/16/assoc ... -straight/


Which one is it not better than?
Delta? Southwest? United? Alaska?
Which one is more industry leading? Name it.


None of them are, I already posted that to you. Pieces are better, not a whole CBA.

Delta has no contract, they are non-union, employees at will.
Southwest is better in wages and 401k contributions, WN has 2,700 mechanics for 753 planes, they outsource 77% of their maintenance.
United only has a better wage and vacation, and they outsource majority of airframe overhaul
AS is not even in the big leagues.

AA has 9,700 mechanics for 965 planes.


Got it. So you aren’t holding out for an industry leading contract. It’s already offered by AA.

You’re holding out for an even more industry leading contract than what is an industry leading contract on offer already.

Totally fine and fair. Just curious.
Keep fighting for an even more industry leading contract.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1171
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:01 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Once again AA’s incomplete offer is not ILC, what is so hard to understand that?

ILC means it’s total value, workrules etc are above the rest of the industry.

Hell no it’s not better nor above the others. AA is asking for concessions, I’ve already posted numerous items they proposed.

AA’s goal is to be a virtual airline, and we all have seen this before ie Valujet.

Just spoke to the second highest negotiator for the IAM, they don’t expect a resolution anytime soon. He is in town doing what the judge ordered.

It’s going to be the most epic situation ever, besides NW.

Go watch the videos.

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/05/16/assoc ... -straight/


Which one is it not better than?
Delta? Southwest? United? Alaska?
Which one is more industry leading? Name it.


None of them are, I already posted that to you. Pieces are better, not a whole CBA.

Delta has no contract, they are non-union, employees at will.
Southwest is better in wages and 401k contributions, WN has 2,700 mechanics for 753 planes, they outsource 77% of their maintenance.
United only has a better wage and vacation, and they outsource majority of airframe overhaul
AS is not even in the big leagues.

AA has 9,700 mechanics for 965 planes.

So, based on your list, it'd be better to ditch the unions and contract and go the way DL goes: happy mechanics/employees, plenty of profit sharing and a lot of maintenance done on aircraft.
Sounds like a win-win to me...
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:06 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
It’s going to be the most epic situation ever, besides NW.


...And we all saw how that turned out..

Is that really what you want? You sure you were a negotiator?

That won’t happen, the NMB will never release both groups to strike, if they did AA couldn’t replace maintenance and fleet systemwide.

Why are you so antiunion? Have you been swimming in DL’s Koolade or their Clockwork Orange reprogramming?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:09 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:

Which one is it not better than?
Delta? Southwest? United? Alaska?
Which one is more industry leading? Name it.


None of them are, I already posted that to you. Pieces are better, not a whole CBA.

Delta has no contract, they are non-union, employees at will.
Southwest is better in wages and 401k contributions, WN has 2,700 mechanics for 753 planes, they outsource 77% of their maintenance.
United only has a better wage and vacation, and they outsource majority of airframe overhaul
AS is not even in the big leagues.

AA has 9,700 mechanics for 965 planes.

So, based on your list, it'd be better to ditch the unions and contract and go the way DL goes: happy mechanics/employees, plenty of profit sharing and a lot of maintenance done on aircraft.
Sounds like a win-win to me...

SMH
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1095
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:12 pm

It seems to me the company is in the drivers seat. Has the union decided if they are fighting for higher wages, or more jobs? I don't think they'll get both. A scope selloff is a massive loss for labor imho. Southwest set the bar very high on pay, but they have a very small maintenance operation, something like 80% is contracted out.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:13 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:

None of them are, I already posted that to you. Pieces are better, not a whole CBA.

Delta has no contract, they are non-union, employees at will.
Southwest is better in wages and 401k contributions, WN has 2,700 mechanics for 753 planes, they outsource 77% of their maintenance.
United only has a better wage and vacation, and they outsource majority of airframe overhaul
AS is not even in the big leagues.

AA has 9,700 mechanics for 965 planes.


Got it. So you aren’t holding out for an industry leading contract. It’s already offered by AA.

You’re holding out for an even more industry leading contract than what is an industry leading contract on offer already.

Totally fine and fair. Just curious.
Keep fighting for an even more industry leading contract.

Dude are you having comprehension issues?

AA is NOT offering an ILC, why do you think the situation is where it is?

How many times do I have repeat this fact?

I can bring you to the water, you have decided not to drink.


So what is industry leading to you?

You just said AA’s offer is better than going to United, Delta (equivalent), and Southwest contracts.
That’s, quite literally, industry leading.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:26 pm

SteelChair wrote:
It seems to me the company is in the drivers seat. Has the union decided if they are fighting for higher wages, or more jobs? I don't think they'll get both. A scope selloff is a massive loss for labor imho. Southwest set the bar very high on pay, but they have a very small maintenance operation, something like 80% is contracted out.

On the maintenance and fleet side the Association is asking to keep existing work.

WN has always led in wages for the most part, but always outsourced majority of work.

The members at AA are not going to pay for their raises by horse trading Scope.

This can go on for years, WN just went seven years.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:27 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:

Got it. So you aren’t holding out for an industry leading contract. It’s already offered by AA.

You’re holding out for an even more industry leading contract than what is an industry leading contract on offer already.

Totally fine and fair. Just curious.
Keep fighting for an even more industry leading contract.

Dude are you having comprehension issues?

AA is NOT offering an ILC, why do you think the situation is where it is?

How many times do I have repeat this fact?

I can bring you to the water, you have decided not to drink.


So what is industry leading to you?

You just said AA’s offer is better than going to United, Delta (equivalent), and Southwest contracts.
That’s, quite literally, industry leading.

Wow, how many times do I have to tell you AA is NOT offering an ILC, I’m not going to repeat myself 20 times. Watch the videos.

You do realize DL TechOps is one of the largest MROs, DL generates hundreds of millions insourcing other airlines work, while outsourcing their overhaul and mods. They just built a huge engine shop and have obtained overhaul rights from the manufacturer. While AA closed its TAESL engine shop which had exclusive rights to certain engine overhauls from the manufacturer. AA had the North American exclusive rights to overhaul the RB211, guess who has that now?

DL
Last edited by Boof02671 on Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1095
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:30 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
It seems to me the company is in the drivers seat. Has the union decided if they are fighting for higher wages, or more jobs? I don't think they'll get both. A scope selloff is a massive loss for labor imho. Southwest set the bar very high on pay, but they have a very small maintenance operation, something like 80% is contracted out.

On the maintenance and fleet side the Association is asking to keep existing work.

WN has always led in wages for the most part, but always outsourced majority of work.

The members at AA are not going to pay for their raises by horse trading Scope.

This can go on for years, WN just went seven years.


Your last sentence seems to.imply that WN is the model to follow. If so, thousands of jobs at AA just went poof. I'll go on record and say AA won't pay WN wages with this amount of in-house work.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:31 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
It seems to me the company is in the drivers seat. Has the union decided if they are fighting for higher wages, or more jobs? I don't think they'll get both. A scope selloff is a massive loss for labor imho. Southwest set the bar very high on pay, but they have a very small maintenance operation, something like 80% is contracted out.

On the maintenance and fleet side the Association is asking to keep existing work.

WN has always led in wages for the most part, but always outsourced majority of work.

The members at AA are not going to pay for their raises by horse trading Scope.

This can go on for years, WN just went seven years.


Your last sentence seems to.imply that WN is the model to follow. If so, thousands of jobs at AA just went poof. I'll go on record and say AA won't pay WN wages with this amount of in-house work.

WN is not the model to follow.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:37 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
This can go on for years....


Actually, it can't. Not if AA is to survive, that is. Something's gotta give.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:40 pm

Boof02671 wrote:

You do realize DL TechOps is one of the largest MROs, DL generates hundreds of millions insourcing other airlines work, while outsourcing their overhaul and mods. They just built a huge engine shop and have obtained overhaul rights from the manufacturer. While AA closed its TAESL engine shop which had exclusive rights to certain engine overhauls from the manufacturer. AA had the North American exclusive rights to overhaul the RB211, guess who has that now?

DL


Don't forget rapid growth of line maintenance.

Sounds like the DL model is the way to go.

Now if only the Association could figure out how to make that work...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:41 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
This can go on for years....


Actually, it can't. Not if AA is to survive, that is. Something's gotta give.

Actually it can. Just wait till the pilots and FAs join in.
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3561
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:42 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
apodino wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Doesn’t work that way. They are in a section 6 negotiations.

Look at WN seven years to get an agreement and all they got was money, no work nothing.

I am going to raise the BS flag here. This only became section 6 last year when the old TWU contract became amendable, prior to that it was simply a negotiation to merge the two existing contracts. And what NWA was referring to is the fact that the union gave the company cross utilization outside the negotiations in exchange for slight wage increases, but practically nothing else and this was leverage they had to extract more out of the company. This was a bad tactical error by the association.

I am not anti union, but the current association is hurting its membership as much as the company does right now. When your union doesn't do its job to represent you, and the company is trying to screw you at the same time, what other recourse do you as a member have?

Once again, both LUS and LAA became amendable at the same time.

You do realize the JCBA is almost done, open issues are Scope, Retirement, Vacation and Wages. The have TAed over 30 articles in both Maintenance and Ramp JCBAs. It’s not a simple task putting together two totally and distinct CBAs. They got a 26% raise and lay-off and station protection, and cross utilization is not going on systemwide. All the other airlines were way ahead. So they achieved a 26% raise, that is not a slight raise and the Association also achieved an increase in pension contributions for LUS IAM members.


Maybe not system wide, DEN is a noteable example, but cross utilization in places like DFW, MIA and CLT is huge.

How is the union screwing its members?


First of all, the Union promised the membership a vote on which union would represent the whole group going forward, which never happened as the association was named by the NMB without any say from the members. Secondly, we have talked about the cross utilization. Thirdly, Union leaders testifying under oath before a judge that the company should fire the bad players? Union's should never throw dues paying members under the bus ever. Fourth, we talked about leverage earlier. One of the key differences between these negotations and Southwest is at the time Southwest did the lawsuit and came to the JCBA, AMFA was already armed with a no vote on a TA by its own membership. In other words, the company knew what the members would not accept. Maybe the association is afraid of the company offer actually being ratified by the membership but it seems to me that as concessionary as the company offer is, a no vote by the membership would send a clear message to Parker and Isom. Lastly, the IAM side of the house on their own JCBA has things a lot better than the TWU side of the house, and seem to be in much less of a hurry to get a deal done. This is screwing the TWU membership because the longer the IAM drags out negotiations, the longer the TWU members work under a terrible bankruptcy agreement.

Have you ever been on a negotiating committee in the airlines?

I have and the antiquated RLA is the problem.


You will get no argument from me on that point. Interestingly enough, this is something I am surprised you don't hear more democrats talk about as this would seem to be an issue they could win with.

You do realize the company is asking for concessions?

It takes two parties to achieve a CBA, and yet you and others give Parker a pass.

Doggie stated numerous times he will give the Association an industry leading contract, yet in five years he hasn’t.

They are asking for the following:
1. Increases of outsourcing and a loss of 2,200 Mechanic jobs in heavy maintenance.
2. Increase of outsourcing of line maintenance and a loss of 1,000 Mechanic jobs.
3. Elimination of Facilities/Plant Maintenance which is a loss of jobs.
4. As people retire, die or leave the company those jobs will not be replaced.
5. Elimination of catering which is a loss of hundreds if not a 1,000 jobs.
6. Only having ramp doing “Core Work”, which is unloading and loading planes, which is a loss of thousands of jobs.
7. Elimination of deicing, loss of jobs.
8. Freezing of the IAMPF, and replace with 401k contribution and match, and it’s concessionary as not everyone will contribute so the company saves money.
9. Elimination of the LUS IAM Member Medical insurance which is an increase of several thousand dollars and less coverage.
10. Increased outsourcing of GSE and elimination of jobs.

And that’s just some of it.

Why don’t you take the time and watch the videos the Association put out to refute the company?

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/05/16/assoc ... -straight/


I actually have watched the videos, and I am aware of what the company is offering. Trust me, language is everything with AA as I have learned in recent years. That being said though, the only three bullet points that affect this lawsuit and the mechanics are 1 2 4, and 9. Everything else is tied up in the fleet service negotiations, which should be separate from the Maintenance negotiations but for some reason are tied together. Truthfully for me if I were an association member, any TA without LUS medical would be a no vote from me period. As far as outsourcing goes, if the negotiators could put numbers on how much additional work is required by AA folks after a plane comes back from Aeroman, not to mention that having American mechanics working on American planes would be a great marketing tool, that would help their cause a lot more. The one question going forward is that AA is building the hangar in GRU. Language that needs to be agreed on is how the scope covers these mechanics, who are under Brazilian labor laws and not American ones. The company can still view these as AA mechanics, which is why the language needs to say Association, and not AA.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:42 pm

Here is a good comment from another poster on Facebook

“Two main issues:
Scope or outsourcing. AA wants well over 50 outsourcing. They have said so. One means is to offer a huge early out package. Leveraging the 60 and up against the rest. That is about 2500 mechanics and related. About 1/2 the work force. Then they will close all the back shops. Galley, lav, seat shops, plating, landing gear, APU etc etc. Then AA says they will give job security to who is left. But not station security. So yeah you have a job in South America.

The actual language is very disconcerning. It's 50% of today's work. Tomorrow after today's 50% it's another 50%, then the next day is 50% of tommorows work. So in a short time there is no work left.

Medical:
This is where the IAM agenda is in conflict with the TWU. Most of the contract language is a better contract for the TWU which suffered severe concessions in the AA backrupcy. The IAM has maintained it pretty much free medical through several US Air backrupcies.

The IAM is running the show in negotiations. Even though the TWU has twice the membership. Why I have no idea. There no way the IAM will asked for their membership to take a concessionary contract..

On the AA side. AA management has repeatedly either not shown up for scheduled negotiations or shown up and walked out after making a derogatory speach.

Then AA publishes in Jetnet the companies "proposals". Even though there is a gag order. What is published is missing language already agreed on. Changed language or language that the company has not even put in front of the Association team.

Now AA is sueing for "work slow down". Most of the TWU has no idea on what basis. Rumor has it there is a couple East coast IAM stations that are in some fracous with local AA management. However the TRO covers all operations.

The TRO has taken the FAAs IAW(In Accordance With), that AA management in 2011-2016 (a result of the MD-80 wire harness FAA fine) has required all mechanics to sign training for, work rules and letters from all AA VPs to all mechanics to work IAW as some crazy "code word" to slow down.
The FAA has now sent a letter to AA and the Union because of the TRO, reminding the parties of their responsibilities to IAW

Note: there is no or very little AA legacy management left from the time of the IAW management letters. AA is US Air under that AA logo.

So there is the stalemate. There are no talks/ negotiating at present.”
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3561
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:44 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Here is a good comment from another poster on Facebook

“Two main issues:
Scope or outsourcing. AA wants well over 50 outsourcing. They have said so. One means is to offer a huge early out package. Leveraging the 60 and up against the rest. That is about 2500 mechanics and related. About 1/2 the work force. Then they will close all the back shops. Galley, lav, seat shops, plating, landing gear, APU etc etc. Then AA says they will give job security to who is left. But not station security. So yeah you have a job in South America.

The actual language is very disconcerning. It's 50% of today's work. Tomorrow after today's 50% it's another 50%, then the next day is 50% of tommorows work. So in a short time there is no work left.

Medical:
This is where the IAM agenda is in conflict with the TWU. Most of the contract language is a better contract for the TWU which suffered severe concessions in the AA backrupcy. The IAM has maintained it pretty much free medical through several US Air backrupcies.

The IAM is running the show in negotiations. Even though the TWU has twice the membership. Why I have no idea. There no way the IAM will asked for their membership to take a concessionary contract..

On the AA side. AA management has repeatedly either not shown up for scheduled negotiations or shown up and walked out after making a derogatory speach.

Then AA publishes in Jetnet the companies "proposals". Even though there is a gag order. What is published is missing language already agreed on. Changed language or language that the company has not even put in front of the Association team.

Now AA is sueing for "work slow down". Most of the TWU has no idea on what basis. Rumor has it there is a couple East coast IAM stations that are in some fracous with local AA management. However the TRO covers all operations.

The TRO has taken the FAAs IAW(In Accordance With), that AA management in 2011-2016 (a result of the MD-80 wire harness FAA fine) has required all mechanics to sign training for, work rules and letters from all AA VPs to all mechanics to work IAW as some crazy "code word" to slow down.
The FAA has now sent a letter to AA and the Union because of the TRO, reminding the parties of their responsibilities to IAW

Note: there is no or very little AA legacy management left from the time of the IAW management letters. AA is US Air under that AA logo.

So there is the stalemate. There are no talks/ negotiating at present.”


This has been the best post in this thread, and says it all beautifully.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:45 pm

How can AA cross utilize in CLT when there are no legacy AA Fleet or Mechanics?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:47 pm

The hangar at GRU is open already.
 
bourbon
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:35 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:40 pm

More employees getting paid less than their industry counterparts equates to higher costs and less productivity.

If Delta had the same exact fleet size as AA they would still have less employees doing the same work yet pay them more and still have lower overall labor costs.

Pay more and get higher quality work usually equates to greater profits.

Cutting costs to obtain profitability is akin to the government saying “we must raise taxes to pay for a program or else the debt we will still accrue, will be accrued even faster”

Union itself is in a bind- they could push for far better pay and work conditions but that would mean less incoming union dues and membership as they would have less members.

So it’s either drastically improve the quality of life for 3/4 the members while also telling them they must be efficient at work and take on the increased workload - or keep it status quo with the current member count and have lower pay and benefits compared to their peers.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5623
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:01 pm

bourbon wrote:
More employees getting paid less than their industry counterparts equates to higher costs and less productivity.

If Delta had the same exact fleet size as AA they would still have less employees doing the same work yet pay them more and still have lower overall labor costs.

Pay more and get higher quality work usually equates to greater profits.


I've done a lot of work in labor economics, including U.S. aviation economics. That sounds like an employee wish, not something that's been demonstrated in several peer-reviewed studies.

Did AA get more than an 8% increase in pilot productivity when it gave pilots 8% raises in 2017? I doubt it. https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi- ... story.html

Did AS get more than 16% increases in productivity from AS pilots and more than 29% increases from ex-VX pilots? https://www.adn.com/business-economy/20 ... -airlines/

That sounds like a small child's 'promise', frankly - Get me a puppy and I'll be good.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:58 pm

bourbon wrote:
More employees getting paid less than their industry counterparts equates to higher costs and less productivity.

If Delta had the same exact fleet size as AA they would still have less employees doing the same work yet pay them more and still have lower overall labor costs.

Pay more and get higher quality work usually equates to greater profits.

Cutting costs to obtain profitability is akin to the government saying “we must raise taxes to pay for a program or else the debt we will still accrue, will be accrued even faster”

Union itself is in a bind- they could push for far better pay and work conditions but that would mean less incoming union dues and membership as they would have less members.

So it’s either drastically improve the quality of life for 3/4 the members while also telling them they must be efficient at work and take on the increased workload - or keep it status quo with the current member count and have lower pay and benefits compared to their peers.

Guess you don’t know what Delta’s ready reserve program is?
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