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Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:59 pm

Also there is no LAA in DEN either.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:12 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Guess you don’t know what Delta’s ready reserve program is?


Hawaiian’s is even worse- and they’re IAM! US’ wasn’t a whole lot better either they had it.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:22 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
It seems to me the company is in the drivers seat. Has the union decided if they are fighting for higher wages, or more jobs? I don't think they'll get both. A scope selloff is a massive loss for labor imho. Southwest set the bar very high on pay, but they have a very small maintenance operation, something like 80% is contracted out.

On the maintenance and fleet side the Association is asking to keep existing work.

WN has always led in wages for the most part, but always outsourced majority of work.

The members at AA are not going to pay for their raises by horse trading Scope.

This can go on for years, WN just went seven years.


Your last sentence seems to.imply that WN is the model to follow. If so, thousands of jobs at AA just went poof. I'll go on record and say AA won't pay WN wages with this amount of in-house work.

Southwest wages are already in the AA offer per Crankyflier.
https://crankyflier.com/2019/06/11/what ... -contract/
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:23 pm

It don’t understand why it’s so hard for you to understand.

AA’s offer is not ILC. Each airline’s CBA has better articles and worse.

Once again Dougie promised an ILC, it’s been five years where is it?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:24 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
On the maintenance and fleet side the Association is asking to keep existing work.

WN has always led in wages for the most part, but always outsourced majority of work.

The members at AA are not going to pay for their raises by horse trading Scope.

This can go on for years, WN just went seven years.


Your last sentence seems to.imply that WN is the model to follow. If so, thousands of jobs at AA just went poof. I'll go on record and say AA won't pay WN wages with this amount of in-house work.

Southwest wages are already in the AA offer per Crankyflier.
https://crankyflier.com/2019/06/11/what ... -contract/

They just added that, but didn’t post the caveats, the total specific language was not released by AA, the devil is always in the details.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1173
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:29 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:

So what is industry leading to you?

You just said AA’s offer is better than going to United, Delta (equivalent), and Southwest contracts.
That’s, quite literally, industry leading.

Wow, how many times do I have to tell you AA is NOT offering an ILC, I’m not going to repeat myself 20 times. Watch the videos.

You do realize DL TechOps is one of the largest MROs, DL generates hundreds of millions insourcing other airlines work, while outsourcing their overhaul and mods. They just built a huge engine shop and have obtained overhaul rights from the manufacturer. While AA closed its TAESL engine shop which had exclusive rights to certain engine overhauls from the manufacturer. AA had the North American exclusive rights to overhaul the RB211, guess who has that now?

DL

How does bringing up how successful non-union Delta is help your points?
And you simply saying “AA’s offer is not industry leading” over and over doesn’t make it true.
You’ve already said the AA contract offer is better than a Delta equivalent or written Southwest/United contracts. By simple definitions, that makes it industry leading. Maybe not the industry leading contract you want, but industry leading nonetheless.

It doesn't help his case.
The dude has a pro-union bias, so he can only hate DL; even if DL employees appear to be happier, better compensated and felt the need, year after year, to decline union representation.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:37 pm

The idea that any contract that doesn't give each group on each line item something better than previous is concessionary is a bunch of BS and a big part of the unions problem selling expectations of every line item being industry leading or the contract is concessionary.

Hint if overall you get more than before its not concessionary and here is another hint no matter what it will still be the best contract out there from a scope perspective. You folks are being sold a bunch of junk by the union. The very rhetoric of (we will close the place down, and bring on the biggest union battle ever,,etc.) for what will be the best contract in the industry shows where the negotiation issues lay.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:44 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
The idea that any contract that doesn't give each group on each line item something better than previous is concessionary is a bunch of BS and a big part of the unions problem selling expectations of every line item being industry leading or the contract is concessionary.

Hint if overall you get more than before its not concessionary and here is another hint no matter what it will still be the best contract out there from a scope perspective. You folks are being sold a bunch of junk by the union. The very rhetoric of (we will close the place down, and bring on the biggest union battle ever,,etc.) for what will be the best contract in the industry shows where the negotiation issues lay.

Concessions

This?

They are asking for the following:
1. Increases of outsourcing and a loss of 2,200 Mechanic jobs in heavy maintenance.
2. Increase of outsourcing of line maintenance and a loss of 1,000 Mechanic jobs.
3. Elimination of Facilities/Plant Maintenance which is a loss of jobs.
4. As people retire, die or leave the company those jobs will not be replaced.
5. Elimination of catering which is a loss of hundreds if not a 1,000 jobs.
6. Only having ramp doing “Core Work”, which is unloading and loading planes, which is a loss of thousands of jobs.
7. Elimination of deicing, loss of jobs.
8. Freezing of the IAMPF, and replace with 401k contribution and match, and it’s concessionary as not everyone will contribute so the company saves money.
9. Elimination of the LUS IAM Member Medical insurance which is an increase of several thousand dollars and less coverage.
10. Increased outsourcing of GSE and elimination of jobs.
11. Outsourcing of stores elimination of hundreds of jobs.

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/05/16/assoc ... -straight/
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1173
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:48 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
How does bringing up how successful non-union Delta is help your points?
And you simply saying “AA’s offer is not industry leading” over and over doesn’t make it true.
You’ve already said the AA contract offer is better than a Delta equivalent or written Southwest/United contracts. By simple definitions, that makes it industry leading. Maybe not the industry leading contract you want, but industry leading nonetheless.

It doesn't help his case.
The dude has a pro-union bias, so he can only hate DL; even if DL employees appear to be happier, better compensated and felt the need, year after year, to decline union representation.

And yet there are two organizing drives going on at DL, one for ramp, one for flight attendants.

And they'll most likely fail, like the previous ones; let's wait and see.
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3561
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:57 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
You understand a contract has numerous clauses and is a general consensus? You can't win on everything, yet come up on top overall.
Let's say I pay my company $10K a year for health insurance that's too gold-plated for me and I don't use in full every year (ain't my fault if I'm healthy, is it???); if my company offers to pay me $15K a year more and I can find the health insurance I need for $5K a year, I'm coming on top by a lot - BUT I do would not have an industry leading contract since this contract would not offer health insurance.

I really don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand: a contract needs to be viewed as the whole thing, not every single point individually.

Doug’s words, not mine. He stated it numerous times at Town Hall meetings and it’s on video

Wonder you can’t understand the whole CBA is suppose to be an ILC, not bits and pieces.

I’ve been on two negotiating committees, have you? I know what costing out a CBA is.

The WHOLE CBA, the CBA as a whole; not bits and pieces.

Do you even understand what you write?
Again, if the CBA as a whole is industry leading, the employees will come up on top overall; even if they lose here and there, they'll still be better off overall...

Get it?

You have actually proven boofs point rather than dispute it. If the money were the deciding factor this would have already been done. But the bottom line is if you look at the entire CBA as a whole, the company does not have an industry leading proposal on the table and actually has a concessionary proposal on the table. This is exactly what the members don’t want. Some of what is argued is silly, like catering and deicing, and boof is lumping fleet into the argument when this is strictly a mx lawsuit and does not involve fleet service. But in general, this proposal will costs the members more than anything they will gain. Thank you for proving boofs point for him though.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1173
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:01 pm

apodino wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Doug’s words, not mine. He stated it numerous times at Town Hall meetings and it’s on video

Wonder you can’t understand the whole CBA is suppose to be an ILC, not bits and pieces.

I’ve been on two negotiating committees, have you? I know what costing out a CBA is.

The WHOLE CBA, the CBA as a whole; not bits and pieces.

Do you even understand what you write?
Again, if the CBA as a whole is industry leading, the employees will come up on top overall; even if they lose here and there, they'll still be better off overall...

Get it?

You have actually proven boofs point rather than dispute it. If the money were the deciding factor this would have already been done. But the bottom line is if you look at the entire CBA as a whole, the company does not have an industry leading proposal on the table and actually has a concessionary proposal on the table. This is exactly what the members don’t want. Some of what is argued is silly, like catering and deicing, and boof is lumping fleet into the argument when this is strictly a mx lawsuit and does not involve fleet service. But in general, this proposal will costs the members more than anything they will gain. Thank you for proving boofs point for him though.

Then, in this case, it won't be an industry leading agreement.
So, either it is industry leading, and boof's argument is mute; or it's not, and the unions would be stupid to agree to it, making the pro-union bias invalid.

Thanks for helping...
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:29 pm

apodino wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Doug’s words, not mine. He stated it numerous times at Town Hall meetings and it’s on video

Wonder you can’t understand the whole CBA is suppose to be an ILC, not bits and pieces.

I’ve been on two negotiating committees, have you? I know what costing out a CBA is.

The WHOLE CBA, the CBA as a whole; not bits and pieces.

Do you even understand what you write?
Again, if the CBA as a whole is industry leading, the employees will come up on top overall; even if they lose here and there, they'll still be better off overall...

Get it?

You have actually proven boofs point rather than dispute it. If the money were the deciding factor this would have already been done. But the bottom line is if you look at the entire CBA as a whole, the company does not have an industry leading proposal on the table and actually has a concessionary proposal on the table. This is exactly what the members don’t want. Some of what is argued is silly, like catering and deicing, and boof is lumping fleet into the argument when this is strictly a mx lawsuit and does not involve fleet service. But in general, this proposal will costs the members more than anything they will gain. Thank you for proving boofs point for him though.

Thank you.

Medical, retirement and vacation are still open issues.

The anti union posters don’t take Quality of Life issues into account.

AA can pay an AMT $100 an hour, but what good is that if you don’t have scope to have mechanics employed.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:26 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Guess you don’t know what Delta’s ready reserve program is?


Hawaiian’s is even worse- and they’re IAM! US’ wasn’t a whole lot better either they had it.

US never used it and the company wanted it removed in the 2014 agreement and it’s gone.

Don’t let the facts get in your way.


I didn't. The "fact" is that the IAM has signed off not once, but twice (at least!) on language that is/was actually worse than DL's Ready Reserve program. And the language regarding temps at UAL frankly isn't much better...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:31 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:

Hawaiian’s is even worse- and they’re IAM! US’ wasn’t a whole lot better either they had it.

US never used it and the company wanted it removed in the 2014 agreement and it’s gone.

Don’t let the facts get in your way.


I didn't. The "fact" is that the IAM has signed off not once, but twice (at least!) on language that is/was actually worse than DL's Ready Reserve program. And the language regarding temps at UAL frankly isn't much better...

Never used at US, and RR is a cancer at DL replacing full time with RR.

Last time I checked the members voted for the language not the leadership.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:39 pm

All well and good. I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy.

And if labor leaders are okay with even entertaining such "cancerous" language, then what's that say?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
usairways787
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:42 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:47 pm

10 Holdays (same as others)
Current TWU scope
I'm fine with my insurance, but make it much more affordable with caps
Double time on overtime, and holidays

You match those, I'd sign today.

Some of the expectations amongst some is unrealistic.

US787
Making bag smashing great again
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:57 pm

apodino wrote:
The insults are getting out of hand so let me try to bring this back on topic. If the judge rules for the company, what does the union do? Do they send a less than desirable contract to the members, or do they try to continue holding out? Will they actually take action against members?

Also, AA reports next week. What impact will this have on earnings and how will it affect things with DL and UA already reporting good results.

The union will appeal and the lawyers are probably working on appeal already.

Let’s see I have NWAESC calling me names and Wayne called me a troll.
 
jetmechanicdave
Moderator
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:04 am

can we please refrain from the personal attacks. This is causing us Mods a ton of work. I kindly ask you guys to please just discuss the topic in a civil manor. Thanks for understanding.
Aircraft Mechanic and Airliners.net Forum Moderator
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3561
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:19 am

Thank you Mods for getting this back on topic, though I think there were posts that were deleted that shouldn't have been.

A couple of things of note to add to this discussion.

There is a congressional hearing tomorrow about aviation safety, with a panel of Experts to give testimony. One of those experts is John Samuelson, the very same guy leading the TWU. That could be an interesting watch and it will be interesting to see if anything related to the AA-Association issue comes up.

Additionally, the Association has sent a letter to the FAA asking for more FAA inspectors to oversee the AA maintenance program in light of a motion by the union that was rejected by a judge. The judge basically said that complying with his order had nothing at all to do with aviation safety and the union didn't prove otherwise. The union is telling the FAA to watch closer. Keep an eye on this.

In a deleted post, someone (I believe NWAESC) brought up the workforce about how AA has way more staff than the other airlines, specifically DL and WN and I wanted to respond. WN operates a single type, where AA operates 10 fleet types. Just that fact alone requires less mechanics than AA. The better comparison is DL. I am not privy to the specifics of the DL maintenance program, but they have brought a lot more work in house in recent years, and they have a massive facility in ATL. One thing you don't mention with AA is the bloated management structure. For years, UA was heavily criticized for a bloated management structure. Oscar Munoz and Scott Kirby have come in and have made a lot of good changes here. AA has gone the other way. They have added so many layers of management along with middle managers since the merger. It has not only led to costs going up, but a management knows all mentality that basically rejects any ideas no matter how good the front line has. We talk about the contracts and that's a big one, but the rest of the culture where only management knows best and the front line knows nothing has done as much if not more to hurt morale.

DL is non union, but does get many benefits of unions existing. The company knows that if they get out of line cards will be signed faster than a Michael Phelps race. If the entire industry was not union and there was no threat, would DL still play nice with the workers?
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:34 am

apodino wrote:
Thank you Mods for getting this back on topic, though I think there were posts that were deleted that shouldn't have been.
In a deleted post, someone (I believe NWAESC) brought up the workforce about how AA has way more staff than the other airlines, specifically DL and WN and I wanted to respond. WN operates a single type, where AA operates 10 fleet types. Just that fact alone requires less mechanics than AA. The better comparison is DL. I am not privy to the specifics of the DL maintenance program, but they have brought a lot more work in house in recent years, and they have a massive facility in ATL.


Just for clarity, I noted that when compared to other carriers, AA way more AMT's relatively. Like it or not, that's something that will need to be resolved.

As for DL, they have (re)focused on Line Maintenance, and things like component overhaul, which while less labor-intensive is much much lucrative than heavy overhauls. We also now have a massive test cell for engines as well.

One thing you don't mention with AA is the bloated management structure.


I didn't mention that because I wanted to honor your request to keep the focus on maintenance, but I happen to agree with you 100%. I don't know how much realigning has been done for management, but that needs to be dealt with as well.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:58 am

Why should it be resolved?

AA does more in-house mtc than any other carrier, they are the largest carrier.

Also your still going to have to pay a vendor to do the work you outsource.

Ever seen a plant come back from a vendor?

They usually have a ton of write ups that have to be reworked in-house.

Delta makes profits off of outsourcing there airframe work but insourcing other airlines airframe work and just opened a state of the art engine shop.

DL sees techops as a money maker and AA sees it as a liability.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:16 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Why should it be resolved?


The overage (and current model) make for a comparative economic disadvantage that’s not sustainable long term.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:04 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Why should it be resolved?


The overage (and current model) make for a comparative economic disadvantage that’s not sustainable long term.

Really?

“AA will never lose money again “

Do you know who said that publicly numerous times?

AA has wasted $15 BILLION on stock buybacks, now the BOD and Executives who pushed and authorized this needs to be fired.

And yet AA squabbles about spending $39 million a year that it would cost to extend the IAM medical insurance to all 30,000 Association members.

Just think more than half of AA’s debt could have been paid off with that $15 billion.

Explain to me how Maintenance is the cause of Parker Walmarting AA and losing premium business travelers to Delta?

When you buyback your stock and retire it, it’s suppose increase the stock price and shareholder value, and it’s done the exact opposite.

You do know they’ve been hiring managers and supervisors in mass quantities, many of them with no airline experience or no airline experience in the department they are assigned too.

They’ve been hiring ramp and maintenance too, they are short staffed and that’s why there is tons of overtime.

Yet you and others give Parker, Isom and the BOD a pass.

Maintenance and Ramp are not the problem.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:21 pm

You should spend more time doing a close read of other’s posts before spewing the same pre-packaged talking points over and over.

Had you actually done that, you’d see I already noted that the overages and current maintenance model at AA aren’t the fault of the workers.

Like it or not until both are resolved, AA will simply be at an economic disadvantage compared to its peers. That leads to increased downward pressure on the workforce.

Meanwhile, it appears the Association made a motion to have the FAA place inspectors at each station. That motion was denied by the judge.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:42 pm

NWAESC wrote:
You should spend more time doing a close read of other’s posts before spewing the same pre-packaged talking points over and over.

Had you actually done that, you’d see I already noted that the overages and current maintenance model at AA aren’t the fault of the workers.

Like it or not until both are resolved, AA will simply be at an economic disadvantage compared to its peers. That leads to increased downward pressure on the workforce.

Meanwhile, it appears the Association made a motion to have the FAA place inspectors at each station. That motion was denied by the judge.

Those are facts, sorry they don’t fit your agenda and narrative. They didn’t make a motion, the judge cannot order the FAA to send PMIs around the system . The Association filed a motion to remove the target fleet launch percentage of available aircraft due to overnight maintenance. They sent a letter to the FAA to ask to send inspectors to the stations so the mechanics aren’t pressured to sign off an unairworthy plane nor feel pressured by management and the court to do so.

Had you actually read the link I posted previously and or just used The Google, you would have known the facts and not post misinformation.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:14 pm

From the Association Letter 7-15-19

"On July 10, 2019, American Airlines requested, and the federal court shortly thereafter entered, an Order which requires the Unions to “take all reasonable actions, including but not limited to communications to their members, to ensure that their members working at American’s line maintenance stations, within seven days of [July 10] …, achieve approximately, in the aggregate, on a 7-day moving average basis, overnight productivity levels equal to the aggregate … overnight productivity levels achieved in the summer of 2018 of 77.5%.” A copy of that Order is attached; the quoted language is on page 5."

"While the Unions intend to ask the Court to modify its Order to address this particular issue, we felt it necessary to also alert the FAA to this provision in light of your recent communication, and to request that you assign inspectors to all maintenance locations sufficient to ensure that the use of targeted productivity levels does not compromise the public safety or compliance with FAR regulations."

From Order on Motion presented by Association

Motion: DENIED

Judge McBryde: "Defendants have expressed concern that if they take actions contemplated by the modification of the temporary restraining order, they will cause their members to take actions that could adversely affect the safety of the traveling public. However, they have provided nothing in support of that position that would cause the court to believe that the members of defendants do not have good enough judgment to know when they are doing something that would adversely affect the traveling public, as distinguished from taking actions to resume in an appropriate manner they're normal work activities."
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:19 pm

None of that changes the reality that AA is overstaffed compared to its peers, and that the model it currently embraces is labor heavy/low return. In-house heavy checks make for a nice story, but in the long run, it’s better for the workgroup to move toward component overhaul, MRO work for others, and a return to line maintenance.

The status quo puts the carrier at a comparative economic disadvantage, and keeps downward pressure on the workers.

Either way, something’s gotta give.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:59 pm

Well the Company is turning its back on their employees.

The NMB scheduled three days of talks this week, then abruptly canceled them, the Association made all necessary things to be their and the company told the NMB no, so the NMB canceled, well we all know the NMB can order AA to be there, so much for being neutral.

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/07/17/nmb-t ... drop-dead/
 
N983AN
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:11 pm

The problem is the IAM wants to hold out and have small stations like MCI and ONT staffed mainline fleet service that aren’t reasonable based on industry standard and where the IAMs own agreement at UA requires to be staffed.

They want LAA TWU line maintenance in high cost cities earning less to secure these dues $$$ for the union.
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3561
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:25 pm

NWAESC wrote:
None of that changes the reality that AA is overstaffed compared to its peers, and that the model it currently embraces is labor heavy/low return. In-house heavy checks make for a nice story, but in the long run, it’s better for the workgroup to move toward component overhaul, MRO work for others, and a return to line maintenance.

The status quo puts the carrier at a comparative economic disadvantage, and keeps downward pressure on the workers.

Either way, something’s gotta give.

A couple of things to point out. One is that the count of Maintenance folks that you are referring to also includes things like Ground Equipment Maintenance and Facilities Maintenance. I am not sure what the head count for those positions are, but to get a more accurate picture subtract those numbers from the total folks, and you will get a more accurate number. Also, AA does still have more airplanes than DL. The other thing AA can do is turn their disadvantage into an advantage. Remember back in the Arpey days, AA actually did the heavy maintenance for AY. The folks at AY said after the TUL folks did those checks the planes didn't have a single writeup for a week. Compare that to Aeroman, who does the heavy checks, then the plane goes out of service for another week when AA gets it back because the AA mechanics have to correct all the bad work that was done by Aeroman. And lets not forget the Oasis debacle as well, where they had to park many 737s because the vendor they hired to do the work did a shoddy job. This is stuff the Unions should be pounding the company with at the table, and actually have spreadsheet numbers to throw at company negotiators.
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3561
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:37 pm

N983AN wrote:
The problem is the IAM wants to hold out and have small stations like MCI and ONT staffed mainline fleet service that aren’t reasonable based on industry standard and where the IAMs own agreement at UA requires to be staffed.

They want LAA TWU line maintenance in high cost cities earning less to secure these dues $$$ for the union.

The problem is the TWU folks this would affect don't want to earn less and wont ratify such a contract. But you raise another good point. Some of what is being asked for is ridiculous. For example, Deicing and Catering are two things I don't even see that are worth fighting for. Deicing events are not an every day occurance, and in big cities with remote deicing pads (Such as PHL), having the work done by union employees while the city has a few pads tied up is only going to slow AA departures to a trickle. Catering is something I don't get either. Usually LSG or GateGourmet are the folks that actually have the inflight kitchens and prepare the meals anyways. In most cases they would cater the planes themselves. This is not one the Union is going to win.

One example of an IAM station you mention is DEN. On the AA side it was an Envoy station, on the US it was mainline. The company has played games with which metal operates into DEN. By having a bunch of LUS metal in the station for the IAM folks to work, the companies position has been that they don't have sufficient LAA metal to meet a departure minimum for mainline staffing in the TWU contract. This issue has been the source of a grievance on two fronts. One is that that with cross utilization, the IAM folks should be working all metal and that the Envoy folks should not even be there. The second is with TWU folks who were furloughed in DEN some time ago not being able to be recalled.

One other key thing that I think could be agreed on is Line Maintenance. Currently the TWU allows this at some outstations, the IAM does not. The best example of this is LHR. LHR folks can not do anything to the A330 fleet aside from ETOPS checks and the occasional write up. LHR on the LAA side does ETOPS Checks, service checks, they clear MELs, and have even gone on field trips to other stations in Europe to help with engine changes. Obviously in the US, you want all of this done by AA mechanics. The question is, outside of US soil, where planes can sit, how much will be allowed?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:38 pm

N983AN wrote:
The problem is the IAM wants to hold out and have small stations like MCI and ONT staffed mainline fleet service that aren’t reasonable based on industry standard and where the IAMs own agreement at UA requires to be staffed.

They want LAA TWU line maintenance in high cost cities earning less to secure these dues $$$ for the union.

Please post factual links, cause your posting misinformation. The IAM doesn’t represent UA MX.
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3561
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:38 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Well the Company is turning its back on their employees.

The NMB scheduled three days of talks this week, then abruptly canceled them, the Association made all necessary things to be their and the company told the NMB no, so the NMB canceled, well we all know the NMB can order AA to be there, so much for being neutral.

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/07/17/nmb-t ... drop-dead/


The company has all the leverage right now, which is why I don't get this at all. The excuse is that its because of pending court action. To me, if you are going to court and cancelling negotiations because you are taking court action instead, how is that good faith negotiating? It makes no sense at all.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:39 pm

AA has approximately 9,700 AMTs.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:42 pm

They don’t staff extra ramp workers for deIcing.

And catering actually saves them money.

They didn’t get catering in three rounds of concessions in two different bankruptcies, didn’t get it the 2008 JCBA with HP nor did they get it in the 2014 Section 6 CBA.
Last edited by Boof02671 on Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
N983AN
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:43 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
N983AN wrote:
The problem is the IAM wants to hold out and have small stations like MCI and ONT staffed mainline fleet service that aren’t reasonable based on industry standard and where the IAMs own agreement at UA requires to be staffed.

They want LAA TWU line maintenance in high cost cities earning less to secure these dues $$$ for the union.

Please post factual links, cause your posting misinformation. The IAM doesn’t represent UA MX.


Dude did you not see it says *fleet service*?

And since you mentioned UA MX, the IAM did represent them until they got defeated by AMFA.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:46 pm

Actually DEN is one of the stations that AA is going to have to start again with LAA. Just like PHL.
 
N983AN
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:46 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
They don’t staff extra ramp workers for deIcing.

And catering actually saves them money.

They didn’t get catering in three rounds of concessions in two different bankruptcies, didn’t get it the 2008 JCBA with HP nor did they get it in the 2014 Section 6 CBA.


But didn’t more small cities close to save a privileged few catering jobs in PHL, headcount that could have been absorbed on the ramp?
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:47 pm

Under the LUS CBA unscheduled Maintenance can be done by a vendor
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:02 pm

N983AN wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
They don’t staff extra ramp workers for deIcing.

And catering actually saves them money.

They didn’t get catering in three rounds of concessions in two different bankruptcies, didn’t get it the 2008 JCBA with HP nor did they get it in the 2014 Section 6 CBA.


But didn’t more small cities close to save a privileged few catering jobs in PHL, headcount that could have been absorbed on the ramp?

Catering is only in five cities.

They only promised to absorb the PHL catering into the ramp.

LSG charges a fortune just to pull up to the plane.

And LSG UNITE workers are taking a strike vote today.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:36 pm

apodino wrote:
A couple of things to point out. One is that the count of Maintenance folks that you are referring to also includes things like Ground Equipment Maintenance and Facilities Maintenance. I am not sure what the head count for those positions are, but to get a more accurate picture subtract those numbers from the total folks, and you will get a more accurate number. Also, AA does still have more airplanes than DL.


I used Boof02671's numbers for both AMTs and divided by number of A/C. I assume they only counted AMT's but who knows?

I did the same thing for DL.


Apodino wrote:
The other thing AA can do is turn their disadvantage into an advantage... This is stuff the Unions should be pounding the company with at the table, and actually have spreadsheet numbers to throw at company negotiators.


Yep. Why they aren't is anyone's guess.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:39 pm

N983AN wrote:
The problem is the IAM wants to hold out and have small stations like MCI and ONT staffed mainline fleet service that aren’t reasonable based on industry standard and where the IAMs own agreement at UA requires to be staffed.


This is delightfully arbitrary.

But do tell; what is the "industry standard," and why is staffing small stations "unreasonable?"

Remember, labor costs are done on a system basis.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
alasizon
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:30 pm

Catering is one where even though LSG and GateGourmet charges absolutely crazy fees, its very difficult and expensive to do in house with the constant changing menus and specifications. Catering vehicles last less time than most other GSE and the facilities require more upkeep on a regular basis.


NWAESC wrote:
N983AN wrote:
The problem is the IAM wants to hold out and have small stations like MCI and ONT staffed mainline fleet service that aren’t reasonable based on industry standard and where the IAMs own agreement at UA requires to be staffed.


This is delightfully arbitrary.

But do tell; what is the "industry standard," and why is staffing small stations "unreasonable?"

Remember, labor costs are done on a system basis.


A Mainline staffed below the wing outstation like MCI is about 2.3-2.5x the cost of having it handled by Piedmont or Envoy between the management costs and headcount differences. The difference is cost is probably around 500-700k per year based on my quick back of hand estimates.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:57 pm

That may true, but labor costs are still done on a system level.

Still waiting for the previous poster to enlighten us what is a supposedly “reasonable industry standard” is.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:43 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Well the Company is turning its back on their employees.

The NMB scheduled three days of talks this week, then abruptly canceled them, the Association made all necessary things to be their and the company told the NMB no, so the NMB canceled, well we all know the NMB can order AA to be there, so much for being neutral.

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/07/17/nmb-t ... drop-dead/



And the Union lied to their people yet again. The company was ready to go and surprised it was cancelled. The NMB cancelled the meeting, probably waiting for the court to issue the permanent injunction.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 518
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:46 am

Doug Parker stated yesterday they were ready to attend and was surprised it was cancelled. He also said he assumed at the moment the union canceled it but later thought it was likely the mediator.

The union has lied a lot in this process. This wouldn't be the first time. Just facts not emotion.
 
incitatus
Posts: 3299
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:52 am

Boof02671 wrote:
incitatus wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
[(...)
Doggie stated numerous times he will give the Association an industry leading contract, yet in five years he hasn’t.

They are asking for the following:
1. Increases of outsourcing and a loss of 2,200 Mechanic jobs in heavy maintenance.
2. Increase of outsourcing of line maintenance and a loss of 1,000 Mechanic jobs.
3. Elimination of Facilities/Plant Maintenance which is a loss of jobs.
4. As people retire, die or leave the company those jobs will not be replaced.
5. Elimination of catering which is a loss of hundreds if not a 1,000 jobs.
6. Only having ramp doing “Core Work”, which is unloading and loading planes, which is a loss of thousands of jobs.
7. Elimination of deicing, loss of jobs.
8. Freezing of the IAMPF, and replace with 401k contribution and match, and it’s concessionary as not everyone will contribute so the company saves money.
9. Elimination of the LUS IAM Member Medical insurance which is an increase of several thousand dollars and less coverage.
10. Increased outsourcing of GSE and elimination of jobs.

And that’s just some of it.

Why don’t you take the time and watch the videos the Association put out to refute the company?

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/05/16/assoc ... -straight/


You make it sound like a lot of people will be fired, right? But that is not true, is it?

I didn’t say that at all.

Read point #4.


But no one really cares about "loss of jobs" in their professional lives, unless they are FIRED.

No one has ever gone to their employer to complain that their job won't exist after they retire. NEVER. Think about this. Your entire list of "job losses" is irrelevant to the employees in this agreement. You write about it like it is a HUGE deal. People are concerned about:

1. Compensation
2. Benefits
3. Job security
4. Work environment

Your list of 10 items is actually just two, numbers 8 and 9.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1173
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:05 am

Boof02671 wrote:
as you post your anti-union here and on airline forums.

Please stop point others' anti-union bias when you do nothing but defend the unions, even when proven wrong. You're the one with the strongest bias.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:12 am

incitatus wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
incitatus wrote:

You make it sound like a lot of people will be fired, right? But that is not true, is it?

I didn’t say that at all.

Read point #4.


But no one really cares about "loss of jobs" in their professional lives, unless they are FIRED.

No one has ever gone to their employer to complain that their job won't exist after they retire. NEVER. Think about this. Your entire list of "job losses" is irrelevant to the employees in this agreement. You write about it like it is a HUGE deal. People are concerned about:

1. Compensation
2. Benefits
3. Job security
4. Work environment

Your list of 10 items is actually just two, numbers 8 and 9.


And maybe only 9. I highly doubt any LAA people want any part of the IAMNPF.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:50 am

UpNAWAy wrote:
Doug Parker stated yesterday they were ready to attend and was surprised it was cancelled. He also said he assumed at the moment the union canceled it but later thought it was likely the mediator.

The union has lied a lot in this process. This wouldn't be the first time. Just facts not emotion.

He also said he would gjve them an ILC, it’s been five years.

He lies, nit The Association.
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