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Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:53 am

incitatus wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
incitatus wrote:

You make it sound like a lot of people will be fired, right? But that is not true, is it?

I didn’t say that at all.

Read point #4.


But no one really cares about "loss of jobs" in their professional lives, unless they are FIRED.

No one has ever gone to their employer to complain that their job won't exist after they retire. NEVER. Think about this. Your entire list of "job losses" is irrelevant to the employees in this agreement. You write about it like it is a HUGE deal. People are concerned about:

1. Compensation
2. Benefits
3. Job security
4. Work environment

Your list of 10 items is actually just two, numbers 8 and 9.

Yes they do care.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:20 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
He lies, nit The Association.


They lied when they said the membership would get to vote on whether or not to be in the Association.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 517
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:13 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
Doug Parker stated yesterday they were ready to attend and was surprised it was cancelled. He also said he assumed at the moment the union canceled it but later thought it was likely the mediator.

The union has lied a lot in this process. This wouldn't be the first time. Just facts not emotion.

He also said he would gjve them an ILC, it’s been five years.

He lies, nit The Association.



The proposal is industry leading. Tell me who has a better deal and would you take it?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1165
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:30 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
Doug Parker stated yesterday they were ready to attend and was surprised it was cancelled. He also said he assumed at the moment the union canceled it but later thought it was likely the mediator.

The union has lied a lot in this process. This wouldn't be the first time. Just facts not emotion.

He also said he would gjve them an ILC, it’s been five years.

He lies, nit The Association.

Can you please define ILC (which I understand means Industry Leading Contract - an acronym no one uses)? It would appear your understanding of what it is greater differs from what most understand it to be.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1165
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:09 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
He also said he would gjve them an ILC, it’s been five years.

He lies, nit The Association.



The proposal is industry leading. Tell me who has a better deal and would you take it?

It certainty isn’t. It’s not even a full proposal.

Less vacation time than UA, less profit sharing than Delta, elimination of 3,300 mechanics, increase percentages of outsourcing, replace stores with vendors, elimination of facilities maintenance, GSE. ETC.

Shall I go on?

You aren’t an actuary, it’s been costed out and it’s not. Stick to filing logbook pages.

http://www.twu-iam.org/2019/05/16/assoc ... -straight/

Ok, less this that those guys, less that than these other guys. But how about more this that those guys, more this than these other guys?
Again, overall, is it industry leading or not? One time you say it is, then you point out what is less than the others.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:22 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
You aren’t an actuary, it’s been costed out and it’s not. Stick to filing logbook pages.


A "know your place" comment is one normally seen from management, not someone purporting to be pro-union.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Oilman
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:26 pm

Does an industry leading contract mean every item is better than every other relevant airline? Or, is there a way to quantify all of the items into an overall score and that score is better than other relevant airlines? I guess the answer also could be up to personal interpretation..
 
WayexTDI
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:28 pm

Oilman wrote:
Does an industry leading contract mean every item is better than every other relevant airline? Or, is there a way to quantify all of the items into an overall score and that score is better than other relevant airlines? I guess the answer also could be up to personal interpretation..

That's what Boof02671 refuses to understand.
A contract is the sum of all clauses; it's not every single one taken individually.
So, an industry leading contract is a contract that is, overall, the best in the industry; you'll win some, you'll lose some.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:38 pm

Doug promised an industry leading contract. All the employees expect everything to be better.

Funny was with a bunch of IAM Mechanic and Related on Tuesday night in CLT.
 
apodino
Topic Author
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:38 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Doug promised an industry leading contract. All the employees expect everything to be better.

Funny was with a bunch of IAM Mechanic and Related on Tuesday night in CLT.


A couple of things. I really believe that Parker and Isom believe what is on the table is industry leading. Personally I don't see it that way and neither does much of the membership. (There are outspoken members who want to ratify whats on the table now, but they are the minority I believe). That being said, everyone else is right, industry leading doesn't necessarily mean everything is better, but the sum of the whole contract is better. Clearly what's on the table right now does not meet that bill. One area that will never be industry leading at AA is profit sharing for example. Parker has made it clear he does not believe profit sharing is the best way to compensate employees, but he did cave on this somewhat in recent years, but still AA is far behind United and Southwest, and Parsecs behind Delta. So you are not going to get a contract where everything is better. That being said, Parker is clearly looking at just the wages to define industry leading. But everything else lags in my opinion. So we don't have an industry leading contract on the table. Parker is convinced they do.

Secondly, about the cancelled negotiations next week. Parker says one thing at the meet and greet and the union claims another. I don't know if AA directed the NMB to cancel talks or not, but it would not surprise me if company officials (possibly on the BOD) without Doug Parker's knowledge directed this. There has been a lot of strange things happening lately with AA, this being the latest one. AA reports next week, and I would not be surprised to see the BOD maybe taking some action next week. As has been discussed, company operational performance has been in the tank, the financial performance has been underwhelming (despite being the largest carrier, AA has the smallest Market Cap), and everything has gotten worse under Doug Parker's leadership, and Wall Street has made it clear they are as fed up as the employees are. It is very difficult to annoy Employees, Customers, and Wall Street and keep a CEO job for very long. That being said though, if the company did not direct ask the NMB for this as they claimed, there is nothing stopping the company from meeting with the association to negotiate without the NMB present. Something very strange is going on behind the scenes at AA right now.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:06 pm

Doug is the Chairman of the Board
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 77
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:14 pm

apodino wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Doug promised an industry leading contract. All the employees expect everything to be better.

Funny was with a bunch of IAM Mechanic and Related on Tuesday night in CLT.


A couple of things. I really believe that Parker and Isom believe what is on the table is industry leading. Personally I don't see it that way and neither does much of the membership. (There are outspoken members who want to ratify whats on the table now, but they are the minority I believe). That being said, everyone else is right, industry leading doesn't necessarily mean everything is better, but the sum of the whole contract is better. Clearly what's on the table right now does not meet that bill. One area that will never be industry leading at AA is profit sharing for example. Parker has made it clear he does not believe profit sharing is the best way to compensate employees, but he did cave on this somewhat in recent years, but still AA is far behind United and Southwest, and Parsecs behind Delta. So you are not going to get a contract where everything is better. That being said, Parker is clearly looking at just the wages to define industry leading. But everything else lags in my opinion. So we don't have an industry leading contract on the table. Parker is convinced they do.


So just a thought. A Union can say whatever it wants related to cost of a contract. Their only obligation is to their membership and to get re-elected.

When any public company CEO speaks publicly about costs of a contract or anything as Doug Parker seems to have here, they have a legal/fiduciary responsibility to be accurate or they can be liable for misleading investors.

Both sides here are trying to win a PR battle, clearly. But only one side can be held legally liable if they say something publicly without backup.

When it comes to costs and whether the contract is industry leading or not, Doug Parker will have a much greater incentive to be accurate.
The Union only has to win the next election and seem to be fighting.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:17 pm

Was talking to a FA this morning, they have it bad, he has 31 years, he’s in CLT and he’s back on reserve.

Company violates their CBA and only recourse is grievances which seem to take forever to be heard.

Company doesn’t care about their uniform issues, morale is in the toilet.

He said at each base is at 80% reserve now.

Something has to give, unless their game plan is to go back into bankruptcy to shed their massive debt and impose massive concessions and layoffs.

$20 billion in debt. They have to pay $907 million alone this year into LAA frozen pensions. Company wants out of the IAMNPF and that’s a cost of over $300 million and rises everyday.

It will get quite interesting.
Last edited by Boof02671 on Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:19 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
apodino wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Doug promised an industry leading contract. All the employees expect everything to be better.

Funny was with a bunch of IAM Mechanic and Related on Tuesday night in CLT.


A couple of things. I really believe that Parker and Isom believe what is on the table is industry leading. Personally I don't see it that way and neither does much of the membership. (There are outspoken members who want to ratify whats on the table now, but they are the minority I believe). That being said, everyone else is right, industry leading doesn't necessarily mean everything is better, but the sum of the whole contract is better. Clearly what's on the table right now does not meet that bill. One area that will never be industry leading at AA is profit sharing for example. Parker has made it clear he does not believe profit sharing is the best way to compensate employees, but he did cave on this somewhat in recent years, but still AA is far behind United and Southwest, and Parsecs behind Delta. So you are not going to get a contract where everything is better. That being said, Parker is clearly looking at just the wages to define industry leading. But everything else lags in my opinion. So we don't have an industry leading contract on the table. Parker is convinced they do.


So just a thought. A Union can say whatever it wants related to cost of a contract. Their only obligation is to their membership and to get re-elected.

When any public company CEO speaks publicly about costs of a contract or anything as Doug Parker seems to have here, they have a legal/fiduciary responsibility to be accurate or they can be liable for misleading investors.

Both sides here are trying to win a PR battle, clearly. But only one side can be held legally liable if they say something publicly without backup.

When it comes to costs and whether the contract is industry leading or not, Doug Parker will have a much greater incentive to be accurate.
The Union only has to win the next election and seem to be fighting.

The two main negotiators for the IAM don’t face elections, Sito will not be running again and Tom isn’t an elected position.

And no they can’t just say the cost of the contract, both sides have actuaries and AA still has to file financials with the SEC.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:28 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
apodino wrote:


The two main negotiators for the IAM don’t face elections, Sito will not be running again and Tom isn’t an elected position.

And no they can’t just say the cost of the contract, both sides have actuaries and AA still has to file financials with the SEC.


Oh. So now we’re suggesting the two main negotiators have no obligation to their members or accountability to them? That must be quite the shock to their members. Lol

Both sides may have actuaries. Only one side is legally responsible for the accuracy of them to investors.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:31 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:


Oh. So now we’re suggesting the two main negotiators have no obligation to their members or accountability to them? That must be quite the shock to their members. Lol

Both sides may have actuaries. Only one side is legally responsible for the accuracy of them to investors.

Don’t put words into my post, never said they don’t have accountability to the members.

Simply refuted your claim about facing pressure due to the election to offices.
 
DescendPHLBO3
Posts: 3
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:31 pm

Re: ILC

Every CBA has a cost per employee. Of course some employees make more, and others make less than the aggregate, but the company absolutely knows what that holistic cost per employee is. An ILC should have the highest aggregate cost per employee when compared to other shops, not necessarily should every line item be industry leading. I am just a union pilot, and even I recognize that 'negotiations' are just the company moving money around to different sections...it is almost unheard of for the union to actually negotiate money being added to the collective 'cost' of the CBA.

From what I have read, the AA proposed CBA has the highest cost per employee of the entire US industry...by a large margin.

Good luck getting more than that.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:48 pm

How can so many negotiating groups demand industry leading contracts when, in reality, they are not leading their industry by any metric? It's only possible for one company/group to lead an industry so doesn't logic suggest that they should benefit more than other companies/groups that perform worse? It's almost like everyone is demanding the same participation ribbon regardless for how they finish.

It seems like groups negotiate for months or years and in the end, they get the same boilerplate language as everyone else...along with retro pay. Most pilot groups ended up with close to 'cut and paste' scope clauses, similar pay for A/C type, and going back a few years they all ended up with B-scales followed a few years later when they all negotiated an end to B-scales. When all is said and done are the final contracts really all that different?
Every zoo is a petting zoo......if you're a man!
 
Antarius
Posts: 1640
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:04 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
How can so many negotiating groups demand industry leading contracts when, in reality, they are not leading their industry by any metric? It's only possible for one company/group to lead an industry so doesn't logic suggest that they should benefit more than other companies/groups that perform worse? It's almost like everyone is demanding the same participation ribbon regardless for how they finish.

It seems like groups negotiate for months or years and in the end, they get the same boilerplate language as everyone else...along with retro pay. Most pilot groups ended up with close to 'cut and paste' scope clauses, similar pay for A/C type, and going back a few years they all ended up with B-scales followed a few years later when they all negotiated an end to B-scales. When all is said and done are the final contracts really all that different?


Without the teeth-gnashing and song and dance, how would the leaderships justify their existence? At the end, you end up with the same result, but some people managed to skim nicely off the top during that time. It is like Barry Zuckerkorn from Arrested Development.
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Boof02671
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:39 pm

Doug and his team have/are destroying AA.

It’s the employees who generate the revenue, not the executives.
 
apodino
Topic Author
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:16 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Doug is the Chairman of the Board

I am aware of that, but you don't know what is going on behind the scenes. Doug is also CEO of the company, and there is plenty about the operation that middle management (Managing Director Level) keeps away from senior leadership in order to make themselves look good. A lot of middle managers are very good at making the spreadsheets look good, so senior management doesn't bat an eye, but the price to make those spreadsheets look good is at the very core of what is wrong with AA. Things like crew scheduling practices, parts inventory, and hub staffing models all make the spreadsheets look good, so the VPs see these spreadsheets and are pleased. Then what happens is stuff goes wrong, and crews get delayed, leading to them running out of duty time more often, parts aren't available to fix airplanes without buying them from outside the company, and then passengers misconnect in the hubs and staffing cant deal with the reacommodations, or is insufficient to man both the on time and the delayed flights. Stuff like this will get blamed on weather often, but if the middle management had given the company the right data in the first place where they are not trying so hard to make spreadsheets look good, senior management could have taken more action. Instead, middle management goes out of their way to cover up their own mistakes from senior management, senior management is in the dark, and you have the situation you have today.

As far as Doug being chairman of the board, that doesn't preclude the board itself from meeting without Parker. I believe Roberts Rules of Order only requires a simple majority for a quorum. If you had a quorum, they could vote to oust Parker, with or without him chairing the meeting. Remember, Planned Parenthood just fired their own president under very similar circumstances to what I am describing.
 
Antarius
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:19 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Doug and his team have/are destroying AA.

It’s the employees who generate the revenue, not the executives.


And /thread.

This shows for certain that you have no interest in discussing the topic at hand and instead choose to repeat propaganda over and over again.
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SteelChair
Posts: 1088
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:20 pm

apodino wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Doug is the Chairman of the Board

I am aware of that, but you don't know what is going on behind the scenes. Doug is also CEO of the company, and there is plenty about the operation that middle management (Managing Director Level) keeps away from senior leadership in order to make themselves look good. A lot of middle managers are very good at making the spreadsheets look good, so senior management doesn't bat an eye, but the price to make those spreadsheets look good is at the very core of what is wrong with AA. Things like crew scheduling practices, parts inventory, and hub staffing models all make the spreadsheets look good, so the VPs see these spreadsheets and are pleased. Then what happens is stuff goes wrong, and crews get delayed, leading to them running out of duty time more often, parts aren't available to fix airplanes without buying them from outside the company, and then passengers misconnect in the hubs and staffing cant deal with the reacommodations, or is insufficient to man both the on time and the delayed flights. Stuff like this will get blamed on weather often, but if the middle management had given the company the right data in the first place where they are not trying so hard to make spreadsheets look good, senior management could have taken more action. Instead, middle management goes out of their way to cover up their own mistakes from senior management, senior management is in the dark, and you have the situation you have today.



Love it. So true. Today's corporate management is all about the optics and hitting the magic number for your bonus or continued employment. So many are in over their heads.
 
apodino
Topic Author
Posts: 3557
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:30 pm

SteelChair wrote:
apodino wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Doug is the Chairman of the Board

I am aware of that, but you don't know what is going on behind the scenes. Doug is also CEO of the company, and there is plenty about the operation that middle management (Managing Director Level) keeps away from senior leadership in order to make themselves look good. A lot of middle managers are very good at making the spreadsheets look good, so senior management doesn't bat an eye, but the price to make those spreadsheets look good is at the very core of what is wrong with AA. Things like crew scheduling practices, parts inventory, and hub staffing models all make the spreadsheets look good, so the VPs see these spreadsheets and are pleased. Then what happens is stuff goes wrong, and crews get delayed, leading to them running out of duty time more often, parts aren't available to fix airplanes without buying them from outside the company, and then passengers misconnect in the hubs and staffing cant deal with the reacommodations, or is insufficient to man both the on time and the delayed flights. Stuff like this will get blamed on weather often, but if the middle management had given the company the right data in the first place where they are not trying so hard to make spreadsheets look good, senior management could have taken more action. Instead, middle management goes out of their way to cover up their own mistakes from senior management, senior management is in the dark, and you have the situation you have today.



Love it. So true. Today's corporate management is all about the optics and hitting the magic number for your bonus or continued employment. So many are in over their heads.


I often wonder if the worst invention ever for corporate America was the spreadsheet. It leads to decisions being made by computer algorithms and less by gut and feel. So many aspects of many businesses cannot be measured by any spreadsheet number, but are essential for good business.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:02 am

Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Doug and his team have/are destroying AA.

It’s the employees who generate the revenue, not the executives.


And /thread.

This shows for certain that you have no interest in discussing the topic at hand and instead choose to repeat propaganda over and over again.

It is the truth, business and premium passengers are turning away from AA.

Delta and UA are outperforming AA.

AA spent $15 billion in stock buybacks and yet the stock is dropping.

The balance sheet speak for itself.

Facts speak for themselves.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1088
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:02 am

apodino wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
apodino wrote:
I am aware of that, but you don't know what is going on behind the scenes. Doug is also CEO of the company, and there is plenty about the operation that middle management (Managing Director Level) keeps away from senior leadership in order to make themselves look good. A lot of middle managers are very good at making the spreadsheets look good, so senior management doesn't bat an eye, but the price to make those spreadsheets look good is at the very core of what is wrong with AA. Things like crew scheduling practices, parts inventory, and hub staffing models all make the spreadsheets look good, so the VPs see these spreadsheets and are pleased. Then what happens is stuff goes wrong, and crews get delayed, leading to them running out of duty time more often, parts aren't available to fix airplanes without buying them from outside the company, and then passengers misconnect in the hubs and staffing cant deal with the reacommodations, or is insufficient to man both the on time and the delayed flights. Stuff like this will get blamed on weather often, but if the middle management had given the company the right data in the first place where they are not trying so hard to make spreadsheets look good, senior management could have taken more action. Instead, middle management goes out of their way to cover up their own mistakes from senior management, senior management is in the dark, and you have the situation you have today.



Love it. So true. Today's corporate management is all about the optics and hitting the magic number for your bonus or continued employment. So many are in over their heads.


I often wonder if the worst invention ever for corporate America was the spreadsheet. It leads to decisions being made by computer algorithms and less by gut and feel. So many aspects of many businesses cannot be measured by any spreadsheet number, but are essential for good business.



But but but.....the fake news told us that the IT revolution was gonna make the business cycle obsolete.

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."

And oh yeah, corporate leaders that forgot their citizenship didn't help either. Sending all the jobs to third world countries while stuffing their accounts with stock options.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1088
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:06 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Doug and his team have/are destroying AA.

It’s the employees who generate the revenue, not the executives.


And /thread.

This shows for certain that you have no interest in discussing the topic at hand and instead choose to repeat propaganda over and over again.

It is the truth, business and premium passengers are turning away from AA.

Delta and UA are outperforming AA.

AA spent $15 billion in stock buybacks and yet the stock is dropping.

The balance sheet speak for itself.

Facts speak for themselves.


The corporate leaders are immune from responsibility. At the end of the day, there isn't much organized labor can do about it if management screws the company ito the ground. Eastern comes to mind, and AMFA at NWA.....not to mention the UAW and GM.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1640
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:18 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Doug and his team have/are destroying AA.

It’s the employees who generate the revenue, not the executives.


And /thread.

This shows for certain that you have no interest in discussing the topic at hand and instead choose to repeat propaganda over and over again.

It is the truth, business and premium passengers are turning away from AA.

Delta and UA are outperforming AA.

AA spent $15 billion in stock buybacks and yet the stock is dropping.

The balance sheet speak for itself.

Facts speak for themselves.


I'm one of those passengers. And I am not a fan of Parker.

That still has nothing to do with this thread.
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Boof02671
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Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:27 am

Yes it does Parker is suing the unions and he clearly stated numerous times he’d give the Association an ILC.

But it’s ok for you to insult me and say I’m posting propaganda?
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:59 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Was talking to a FA this morning, they have it bad, he has 31 years, he’s in CLT and he’s back on reserve.

Company violates their CBA and only recourse is grievances which seem to take forever to be heard.

Company doesn’t care about their uniform issues, morale is in the toilet.

He said at each base is at 80% reserve now.


This thread is about AMT's.

Something has to give, unless their game plan is to go back into bankruptcy to shed their massive debt and impose massive concessions and layoffs.


Maybe it is.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
N628AU
Posts: 369
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2000 4:20 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:01 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Doug and his team have/are destroying AA.

It’s the employees who generate the revenue, not the executives.



Wrong. It’s the customers that generate and provide the revenue. The company and labor have to share in the blame for operational mess that AA is right now, and the cash cow is in the process of moving to greener pastures.
 
N628AU
Posts: 369
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2000 4:20 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:03 am

apodino wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
apodino wrote:
I am aware of that, but you don't know what is going on behind the scenes. Doug is also CEO of the company, and there is plenty about the operation that middle management (Managing Director Level) keeps away from senior leadership in order to make themselves look good. A lot of middle managers are very good at making the spreadsheets look good, so senior management doesn't bat an eye, but the price to make those spreadsheets look good is at the very core of what is wrong with AA. Things like crew scheduling practices, parts inventory, and hub staffing models all make the spreadsheets look good, so the VPs see these spreadsheets and are pleased. Then what happens is stuff goes wrong, and crews get delayed, leading to them running out of duty time more often, parts aren't available to fix airplanes without buying them from outside the company, and then passengers misconnect in the hubs and staffing cant deal with the reacommodations, or is insufficient to man both the on time and the delayed flights. Stuff like this will get blamed on weather often, but if the middle management had given the company the right data in the first place where they are not trying so hard to make spreadsheets look good, senior management could have taken more action. Instead, middle management goes out of their way to cover up their own mistakes from senior management, senior management is in the dark, and you have the situation you have today.



Love it. So true. Today's corporate management is all about the optics and hitting the magic number for your bonus or continued employment. So many are in over their heads.


I often wonder if the worst invention ever for corporate America was the spreadsheet. It leads to decisions being made by computer algorithms and less by gut and feel. So many aspects of many businesses cannot be measured by any spreadsheet number, but are essential for good business.


Truth right here. Left my last job that became unbearable and unrealistic due to it being run the by the accounts. Went to a company ran but he operators and we perform better. Shocking.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:09 am

AS the employees do the work, they generate the revenue.
 
Airbuser
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:42 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:26 am

The worst thing about this calamity is the abuse of the passenger. It was very recent that SWA Mechanics were involved in a similar situation. I don’t know who is to blame other than the system. There is little pressure for a company to settle a contract because of the railway labor act. The structure causes angst for the employee because they have no say in the matter. Clearly the union is upset and feels they deserve more. Perhaps they think the company can afford more. AA Mechanics age demographic is very old. Maybe they have enough money saved and figure why not fight the fight and if it doesn’t work out then just retire.

A sad aside is the Pilot and Flight Attendant contracts are up shortly and the angst there is close to what the mechanics feel.

The turmoil has is not quite on the edge of the precipice yet. Close but not yet. When Union officials start getting fined, Mechanics start getting fired, and AA is on the nightly news daily for bad reasons, then you will see movement.

I sure hope this ends soon because the passengers are getting creamed.
 
alasizon
Posts: 1879
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:40 am

Boof02671 wrote:
AS the employees do the work, they generate the revenue.


Nothing a mechanic does generates revenue. An AMT protects the revenue generated by the yield management & sales folks and that revenue is provided by the customers. Without customers, there is no revenue to be had.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
N628AU
Posts: 369
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2000 4:20 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:06 am

Boof02671 wrote:
AS the employees do the work, they generate the revenue.


Y’all don’t figure out how to get this operation in gear there won’t be any work left to do.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:54 am

alasizon wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
AS the employees do the work, they generate the revenue.


Nothing a mechanic does generates revenue. An AMT protects the revenue generated by the yield management & sales folks and that revenue is provided by the customers. Without customers, there is no revenue to be had.

Guess you dint realize the hundreds of millions of dollars delta makes at TechOps insourcing work which AA chose to get out of.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:59 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
AS the employees do the work, they generate the revenue.


Nothing a mechanic does generates revenue. An AMT protects the revenue generated by the yield management & sales folks and that revenue is provided by the customers. Without customers, there is no revenue to be had.

Guess you dint realize the hundreds of millions of dollars delta makes at TechOps insourcing work which AA chose to get out of.

Right?
Crazy how much non-union Delta destroys their mechanic workforce, outsources all of them without union protection, and makes them horribly paid.
Oh wait... :roll:
Ironic example for you to use...
It’s almost like not having a union has made them better off...
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:10 pm

Boof02671 keeps making the case for going non-union and doesn’t even realize it.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:11 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Guess you dint realize the hundreds of millions of dollars delta makes at TechOps insourcing work which AA chose to get out of.


Then that’s on AA Management, but it's also on he Association for not pushing to capture more of that work.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:01 pm

Actually they’ve been trying. Doug is against it
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:03 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
alasizon wrote:

Nothing a mechanic does generates revenue. An AMT protects the revenue generated by the yield management & sales folks and that revenue is provided by the customers. Without customers, there is no revenue to be had.

Guess you dint realize the hundreds of millions of dollars delta makes at TechOps insourcing work which AA chose to get out of.

Right?
Crazy how much non-union Delta destroys their mechanic workforce, outsources all of them without union protection, and makes them horribly paid.
Oh wait... :roll:
Ironic example for you to use...
It’s almost like not having a union has made them better off...

What you don’t grasp is those DL mechanics have zero job protections nor security.

DL has closed hangars in DFW, TPA, Duluth MSP and cant remember where else and outsourced the work.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:06 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Guess you dint realize the hundreds of millions of dollars delta makes at TechOps insourcing work which AA chose to get out of.

Right?
Crazy how much non-union Delta destroys their mechanic workforce, outsources all of them without union protection, and makes them horribly paid.
Oh wait... :roll:
Ironic example for you to use...
It’s almost like not having a union has made them better off...

What you don’t grasp is those DL mechanics have zero job protections nor security.

DL has closed hangars in DFW, TPA, Duluth MSP and cant remember where else and outsourced the work.

I believe you’re the one who held Delta up as a model of insourcing in your previous post, not me.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:08 pm

Your not grasping they insource other airlines, while outsourcing their own planes.

Those unsourced planes can be gone if the customer pulls the work.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:10 pm

...And AA has closed AFW, TAESL, MCI and can't remember where else...

Meanwhile, DL is opening (or reopening) new points all across the system, capturing more MRO/component work and has brought some work back inhouse. That's win-win all around- for labor, for our passengers & for WallStreet.

Can you tell us more about which stations AA has opened over the last 4-5 years? I can't think of any off the top of my head.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:12 pm

NWAESC wrote:
...And AA has closed AFW, TAESL, MCI and can't remember where else...

Meanwhile, DL is opening (or reopening) new points all across the system, capturing more MRO/component work and has brought some work back inhouse. That's win-win all around- for labor, for our passengers & for WallStreet.

Can you tell us more about which stations AA has opened over the last 4-5 years? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

And all wasnt outsourced except TAESL. Can’t say that about DL.

Tell the whole story, not half.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:15 pm

AFW: CLosed
TAESL: Closed
MCI Base: Closed

Meanwhile, DL continues to expand its TechOps operation- Line maintenance, 3rd party work, overhaul and more.

DL is growing, while AA is at best stagnant.

The end.

But I'm open. All you have to do is tell us which points AA has either opened or reopened in the last few years. Are there any?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:24 pm

You do know this don’t you?

American Airlines opens O'Hare's largest aircraft hangar

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... angar.html

American beefs up engine maintenance capabilities in TUL

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... 56-5b.html

And AA is hiring mechanics

https://www.avm-mag.com/american-airlin ... s-in-2019/

For expansion, not replacements

No stagnation there, and they also will be hiring mechanics in TUL, last 66 job openings went unbidden.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:02 pm

Great. Not what I asked, but that's okay. Those all seem like good news stories for AA AMT's. Quite a different picture than the doom and gloom the Association is selling.

How about Line Maintenance. Any new points?

I can't help but notice you've made a very abrupt shift from using "we" when referring to AA to using "they." Do you not work there anymore?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA lawsuit against TWU/IAM (redux)

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:10 pm

They opened IAH and the addition 250 is for line
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