https://onemileatatime.com/korean-air-captain-drinking/

Crazy story but a KE captain tried to drink alcohol before and during an AMS-ICN flight. In KE’s response, the captain was given a verbal warning but not more since he didn’t actually drink (!). The cabin chief who stopped him was demoted after the investigation for using insulting words during the altercation and for leaking an internal matter.

I remember Delta helped bring CRM into the KE culture after a series of incidents in the 90s. Will their recent share purchase of the company help influence any necessary culture change?

It seems as though the only way to get KE fixed (when it comes to CRM) is more contract captains and instructors from outside of Korea like they did in the '90s. I would expect Delta is watching this very closely but it is extremely hard to change a culture that has been ingrained in their society for decades.

It is impressive that Korean Air has gone from one of the most dangerous airlines in the world to very safe so they must be doing something right.

SierraPacific wrote:

It seems as though the only way to get KE fixed (when it comes to CRM) is more contract captains and instructors from outside of Korea like they did in the '90s. I would expect Delta is watching this very closely but it is extremely hard to change a culture that has been ingrained in their society for decades.

It is impressive that Korean Air has gone from one of the most dangerous airlines in the world to very safe so they must be doing something right.

KE has had MASSIVE cultural problems that have interfered with flight safety over the life of the airline. They had to learn the lesson the hard way a couple of times in the 90's as you mention. Sounds like an intervention may be warranted again.

I used to be an ardent defender of KE and their safety standards, but incidents like these really make me question their approach to safety.

I'm really glad AC flies nonstop YYZ-ICN now so I can avoid KE.

There’s a few airlines I’d never fly on


Korean air has always been at the top of my list

I had to reread the post multiple times to make I wasn't crazy. This is insane, you gotta be better KE.

mattnrsa wrote:

The cabin chief who stopped him was demoted after the investigation for using insulting words during the altercation and for leaking an internal matter.

The cabin chief should be promoted.
The captain should be fired.

Ugh. Misogyny at its worst.

WTF!? I read this was true in the 1990's but Korean airlines STILL have the WORST CRM. Who knows what DL has gotten into. Something needs to change FAST.

x1234 wrote:

WTF!? I read this was true in the 1990's but Korean airlines STILL have the WORST CRM. Who knows what DL has gotten into. Something needs to change FAST.

It is easy to vote with your feet and wallet. If a sufficient amount of people do just that, they will stop these ridiculous practices. KE has made a fool of itself on so many occasions in the last few years that all improvements since the disastrous days of the 90s seem like putting lipstick on a pig.

Its almost as though, kill somebody, but don't insult the Captain...

Most likely that the act of complaining was itself the 'insult'.

bug

SierraPacific wrote:

It seems as though the only way to get KE fixed (when it comes to CRM) is more contract captains and instructors from outside of Korea like they did in the '90s. I would expect Delta is watching this very closely but it is extremely hard to change a culture that has been ingrained in their society for decades.

It is impressive that Korean Air has gone from one of the most dangerous airlines in the world to very safe so they must be doing something right.

Decades? No. Probably hundreds of years, maybe thousands. Unbelievable.

Amazing. Had they given him a drink, what happens if he wants a second one? Makes you wonder how often does it occur when the cabin crew don't question or stop it.

MalevTU134 wrote:

x1234 wrote:

WTF!? I read this was true in the 1990's but Korean airlines STILL have the WORST CRM. Who knows what DL has gotten into. Something needs to change FAST.

It is easy to vote with your feet and wallet. If a sufficient amount of people do just that, they will stop these ridiculous practices. KE has made a fool of itself on so many occasions in the last few years that all improvements since the disastrous days of the 90s seem like putting lipstick on a pig.

Your lipstick on a pig statement is absolutely spot on. It would be a challenge to find another example of such a backwards and farcical airline that's from a developed modern democracy. Mediocre ground experience, substandard catering (birdseed, anyone?), lackluster entertainment, outdated products on many long haul aircraft (2-3-2 J configuration on many 777s, no wifi at all), questionable safety practices, and PR disaster after PR disaster. Very embarrassing, and the only saving grace for the airline is the cabin crew that are held to high standards due to the competitive nature of the job in Korea. Seriously one of the world's most overrated and overpriced airlines in existence today.

Max Q wrote:

There’s a few airlines I’d never fly on

Korean air has always been at the top of my list

Same. Which sucks, as DL is by far my most commonly used airline.

Oh well, when I can't do a DL nonstop; CX it is.

continental004 wrote:

Ugh. Misogyny at its worst.

Where does it state the crew chief is female?

x1234 wrote:

WTF!? I read this was true in the 1990's but Korean airlines STILL have the WORST CRM. Who knows what DL has gotten into. Something needs to change FAST.

Maybe not the worst, but at the moment they have real issues. A big part of the problem is recruiting. CRM and ex ROKAF do not fit together very well. Try to imagine the FO is questioning a decision of an ex ROKAf Captain. Trouble on the flight deck ahead....

ExDubai wrote:

x1234 wrote:

WTF!? I read this was true in the 1990's but Korean airlines STILL have the WORST CRM. Who knows what DL has gotten into. Something needs to change FAST.

Maybe not the worst, but at the moment they have real issues. A big part of the problem is recruiting. CRM and ex ROKAF do not fit together very well. Try to imagine the FO is questioning a decision of an ex ROKAf Captain. Trouble on the flight deck ahead....

Yeah that is absolutely unacceptable. And that's exactly what happened to the KE 747 that crashed in the UK. The FO allowed the captain to crash a perfectly good airplane. The FO knew what was happening but was too scared to take control from the captain.

US airlines are not the most glamorous but I do feel that the sky god mentality has been done away with here for the most part. Occasionally there is a flare up like that WN captain who slammed the 737 into the runway at LGA. And she was rightfully fired.

I've lived in Asia for the past 6 years or so. Sweeping generalisations but... the cultures here will not change, mainly because they don't see the need for change. They are right, others are wrong. They will pay lip service to the "international community" when they have to, but the underlying beliefs will not change in my lifetime, nor for many to come. Rightly or wrongly.

Crazy, crazy situation. Never flown KE......never will. Poor culture that needs to change.

I had the chance to dispatch a flight for KE once, NEVER AGAIN! terrible culture, crew seemed annoyed, female crew had no voice it seemed!

After that being said: it happened the same on TAM in MAO a few years ago, Cpt was reported drunk, still made the flight and the crew denouncing was suspended!

Kiwirob wrote:

continental004 wrote:

Ugh. Misogyny at its worst.

Where does it state the crew chief is female?

From the article linked:
"According to the report, the flight’s captain walked past a tray of pre-departure drinks and tried to take a glass of champagne, but a cabin crew member blocked him, saying he can’t drink alcohol. He responded that she could then give it to him in a paper cup instead."

Korea always had a super tough culture of hierarchy, and this is not changing anytime soon unfortunately, no matter how many western expat pilots you introduce at the airline. The whole company's work environment, including management, needs change on the bigger scale, not only the cockpit. And this is very hard, or virtually impossible. It implies a massive reform, and achieving such a reform in a deeply conservative culture like the Korean one is a hell of a task.

Until then, safety standards, as we see them in our western world, will suffer.

Virtual737 wrote:

I've lived in Asia for the past 6 years or so. Sweeping generalisations but... the cultures here will not change, mainly because they don't see the need for change. They are right, others are wrong. They will pay lip service to the "international community" when they have to, but the underlying beliefs will not change in my lifetime, nor for many to come. Rightly or wrongly.

I also hate to generalise but I also lived in East Asia for six years and you're right. Stubborn, isolated (by choice), male-dominated, and an unshakeable sense of superiority. Not a good recipe.

LAX772LR wrote:

Max Q wrote:

There’s a few airlines I’d never fly on

Korean air has always been at the top of my list

Same. Which sucks, as DL is by far my most commonly used airline.

Oh well, when I can't do a DL nonstop; CX it is.

Agreed, same goes for Asiana, they crashed a 777 in SFO because they literally couldn’t fly a visual approach


Incomprehensibly incompetent

One really wonders how common this sort of thing is. This incident has made the news, but how many similar ones get covered up successfully? I'm fairly certain that this kind of thing is far more common than what most of us in the west expect. Sadly saving face comes before safety in many cultures, especially in Asia.

Virtual737 wrote:

I've lived in Asia for the past 6 years or so. Sweeping generalisations but... the cultures here will not change, mainly because they don't see the need for change. They are right, others are wrong. They will pay lip service to the "international community" when they have to, but the underlying beliefs will not change in my lifetime, nor for many to come. Rightly or wrongly.

You can say that about a lot of places including most of Europe, where I'm from but that doesn't mean that private enterprises can't adopt modern safety rules and standards. If KE can't change, the problem is not the nation's culture the problem is its management.

To counterbalance the discussion, the last KE crash occured 20 years ago, i'm sure the comments about safety issues are based on something but KE management seems to do something correctly. I was not in the aviation world before 1999 so i don't have the same opinion about them.

But nonetheless, this incident exhibits big management issues that are infortunately common in South-Korean businesses. But that's not an excuse to do nothing about it.

Can Korea Office of Civil Aviation intervene in this particular case?

Ugh. Obvious kudos to the crew that tried to stop it. Not that I have much of a need to, but I won’t be flying KE until they address this.

The problem is going to be hard to ultimately knock because it’s the language. Korean (and Japanese) use different grammars when addressing people senior or junior to you. It would be like speaking only in slang to people “beneath” you, while speaking the Queen’s English to people above you, but the words for criticizing only exist in slang.

I’ve seen this in my work. Two bilingual Korean colleagues having an argument. The older Korean person wanted to assert authority over my younger Korean associate, so she spoke Korean to her and spoke down to her. This would have forced my younger Korean colleague to speak in the deferential grammar back to her. Unable to say “you are wrong” in Korean, she responded in English. (English language readily accepts telling off a superior.)

My understanding was that Delta figured this out and insisted on an all English cockpit (among other things) to implement better CRM. Maybe an all-English cabin is needed too.

HPRamper wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

continental004 wrote:

Ugh. Misogyny at its worst.

Where does it state the crew chief is female?

From the article linked:
"According to the report, the flight’s captain walked past a tray of pre-departure drinks and tried to take a glass of champagne, but a cabin crew member blocked him, saying he can’t drink alcohol. He responded that she could then give it to him in a paper cup instead."

The cabin crew member here is not the same person as the crew chief.

airbazar wrote:

Virtual737 wrote:

I've lived in Asia for the past 6 years or so. Sweeping generalisations but... the cultures here will not change, mainly because they don't see the need for change. They are right, others are wrong. They will pay lip service to the "international community" when they have to, but the underlying beliefs will not change in my lifetime, nor for many to come. Rightly or wrongly.

You can say that about a lot of places including most of Europe, where I'm from but that doesn't mean that private enterprises can't adopt modern safety rules and standards. If KE can't change, the problem is not the nation's culture the problem is its management.

Before living here (even though visiting several times per year) I would have totally agreed with you, but you need to be continually immersed in the culture here to truly understand how "deep" it runs. I too am European and it really is so totally different that it is baffling, until you just accept that is the way it is.

It is not for me to say it is right or wrong, but it is so very different. To just say that they should adopt modern safety rules is, with due respect, totally missing the real issue. Whatever the "fix", it is not going to happen overnight. You're effectively telling them that up is down, left is right and white is black. A big stick approach and finger pointing just doesn't work.

They crashed a perfectly serviceable 777 in San Francisco, A visual approach on either runway in good weather is normally straight forward.
This is more about Leadership and etsonal values.
This Captain should be out of a job.
The CSM on the other hand deserves a commendation fron this shambles of an international airline.

Many years ago, I remember hearing an oft told tale that AF flight crews would get wine included on their meal trays. Fact or fiction? As for KEs’ incident? I can only say I have worked along side 2 Korean colleagues. One, had work that was seamlessly perfect and the other, bullheaded, but got the job done. I will always watch Korea with envy - and best wishes. It takes guts to ward off and deal with neighbors like it has for thousands of years. Good luck KE with this new challenge.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

SierraPacific wrote:

It seems as though the only way to get KE fixed (when it comes to CRM) is more contract captains and instructors from outside of Korea like they did in the '90s. I would expect Delta is watching this very closely but it is extremely hard to change a culture that has been ingrained in their society for decades.

It is impressive that Korean Air has gone from one of the most dangerous airlines in the world to very safe so they must be doing something right.

KE has had MASSIVE cultural problems that have interfered with flight safety over the life of the airline. They had to learn the lesson the hard way a couple of times in the 90's as you mention. Sounds like an intervention may be warranted again.

One of the most significant ones to highlight that was Korean air 8509 where the captains ADI failed but the first officer didn't challenge it at all

D L X wrote:

I’ve seen this in my work. Two bilingual Korean colleagues having an argument. The older Korean person wanted to assert authority over my younger Korean associate, so she spoke Korean to her and spoke down to her. This would have forced my younger Korean colleague to speak in the deferential grammar back to her. Unable to say “you are wrong” in Korean, she responded in English. (English language readily accepts telling off a superior.)

My understanding was that Delta figured this out and insisted on an all English cockpit (among other things) to implement better CRM. Maybe an all-English cabin is needed too.

Sounds like that would go a long way, if implemented.

Virtual737 wrote:

Whatever the "fix", it is not going to happen overnight. You're effectively telling them that up is down, left is right and white is black. A big stick approach and finger pointing just doesn't work.

Agreed. Changing a culture is a lot tougher than many here are making it out to be.

Ugly51 wrote:

They crashed a perfectly serviceable 777 in San Francisco,

Right country, wrong airline (it was Asiana).

D L X wrote:

Ugh. Obvious kudos to the crew that tried to stop it. Not that I have much of a need to, but I won’t be flying KE until they address this.

The problem is going to be hard to ultimately knock because it’s the language. Korean (and Japanese) use different grammars when addressing people senior or junior to you. It would be like speaking only in slang to people “beneath” you, while speaking the Queen’s English to people above you, but the words for criticizing only exist in slang.

I’ve seen this in my work. Two bilingual Korean colleagues having an argument. The older Korean person wanted to assert authority over my younger Korean associate, so she spoke Korean to her and spoke down to her. This would have forced my younger Korean colleague to speak in the deferential grammar back to her. Unable to say “you are wrong” in Korean, she responded in English. (English language readily accepts telling off a superior.)

My understanding was that Delta figured this out and insisted on an all English cockpit (among other things) to implement better CRM. Maybe an all-English cabin is needed too.

It can be similar in some European languages, for example German, where 'Sie' is the formal form and 'Du' is the informal form. When I was learning German, I was taught that 'Sie' should always be used towards superiors until invited by them to use the 'Du' form instead. However, unlike Korean, it doesn't create a culture in which a superior cannot be challenged, it merely makes you sound very polite when doing so

That said, it is my understanding that crew members at German-speaking airlines predominantly converse with one another using the 'Du' form, so that there isn't a perceived difference in status between colleagues. This is exhibited to good effect in this video, which features one of the airline's most senior captains using the informal construction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLrZloqULnY

This is evidently something which is lacking at Korean.

I really like KE's service. But it seems that it is forgetting the lessons learned from multiple accidents in the 1990s that were attributed to the "captain-is-king" and "senior-people-are-always-right" culture.

Virtual737 wrote:

It is not for me to say it is right or wrong, but it is so very different. To just say that they should adopt modern safety rules is, with due respect, totally missing the real issue. Whatever the "fix", it is not going to happen overnight. You're effectively telling them that up is down, left is right and white is black. A big stick approach and finger pointing just doesn't work.

Agreed!

Westerners are so quick to cry for a culture change, yet have no inkling of how deeply ingrained these issues are and how long it takes to gradually move it. Often we opt for the quick change, which more often than not creates an even greater backlash.

This is an airline that really is an aberration today, in that it has such a long track record of poor/negligent airmanship, and a corporate culture that fosters it. I certainly would not consider flying on it.

Max Q wrote:

There’s a few airlines I’d never fly on


Korean air has always been at the top of my list

WHy? I don't know much about KE never having flown them before. But a quick check on ASN shows a pretty stellar safety record in the past 2 decades.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/op ... p?var=5863

Redd wrote:

Max Q wrote:

There’s a few airlines I’d never fly on


Korean air has always been at the top of my list

WHy? I don't know much about KE never having flown them before. But a quick check on ASN shows a pretty stellar safety record in the past 2 decades.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/op ... p?var=5863

I don't think that KE is that unsafe (these CRM issues aside..) but simple incident frequency analysis is not a good indicator of safety if not examined in context of scale of operations.

American (if including its regional flights) operates more flights in one day than Korean Air operates in two weeks. While flight time is a bit closer (due to KE's long haul bias), most incidents (especially CRM-related ones) occur during takeoff, climb, descent, and landing. So, very roughly, it takes 10-14 years of accident-free flying from KE to compare to one year of e.g., American Airlines flying (or other high frequency carrier - DL, UA, WN, FR..).

This need to gain traction on the world media and social media. He must be fired.

The only justification for punishing the cabin crew member would be for leaking an internal matter. But that captain should be fired. Korean Air has had issues with this in the past. A culture change is needed, and the population of South Korea have to demand that culture change as well and not let off the gas, so to speak.

airbazar wrote:

Virtual737 wrote:

I've lived in Asia for the past 6 years or so. Sweeping generalisations but... the cultures here will not change, mainly because they don't see the need for change. They are right, others are wrong. They will pay lip service to the "international community" when they have to, but the underlying beliefs will not change in my lifetime, nor for many to come. Rightly or wrongly.

You can say that about a lot of places including most of Europe, where I'm from but that doesn't mean that private enterprises can't adopt modern safety rules and standards. If KE can't change, the problem is not the nation's culture the problem is its management.

Objection your honour! If you hire a lot of people from the ROKAF, you’re supporting that type of company culture. They‘re coming from an environment which is based on hierarchy. To change that habit is a hell of a job, a lot of people can’t grow out of that habits.

SierraPacific wrote:

It seems as though the only way to get KE fixed (when it comes to CRM) is more contract captains and instructors from outside of Korea like they did in the '90s. I would expect Delta is watching this very closely but it is extremely hard to change a culture that has been ingrained in their society for decades.

Er, no, the way to fix this is to clear out management who think that Korean culture is more important than safety. If that means firing pilots who can't put aside the culture for several hours while at work, then so be it. Safety is everyone's first priority at an airline.

It’s a disturbing incident but people really need to stop talking about what Korean culture is when they have no idea what it actually is.

thekorean wrote:

It’s a disturbing incident but people really need to stop talking about what Korean culture is when they have no idea what it actually is.

Have your flame suit on?

smithbs wrote:

Virtual737 wrote:

It is not for me to say it is right or wrong, but it is so very different. To just say that they should adopt modern safety rules is, with due respect, totally missing the real issue. Whatever the "fix", it is not going to happen overnight. You're effectively telling them that up is down, left is right and white is black. A big stick approach and finger pointing just doesn't work.

Agreed!

Westerners are so quick to cry for a culture change, yet have no inkling of how deeply ingrained these issues are and how long it takes to gradually move it. Often we opt for the quick change, which more often than not creates an even greater backlash.

And “Westerners” have the right when their unknowing public use international airlines, and those international airlines are flying into those western countries, to ban them if their procedures are not up to standard.

Saying “well westerners don’t understand their culture” is not an excuse for them not having the operational safety standards required of airmen and women that the vast majority of airlines around the world should and do have.

Maybe if this airline did get banned from using western airspace they’d suddenly realise that it is actually quite possible to adopt modern safety standards, basis of which is CRM and cabin crew supporting that.

I am surprised that there isn't more pressure from insurers upon airlines to see that proper CRM and staff safety culture is in place to reduce their risks and hold down premiums to airlines and of course, save unnecessary loss of life. As to the punishment of the cabin crew member who refused the request, while they might have disobeyed company rules as to disclosure of the alleged event, it suggests that there is no 'whistelblower' protections or internal program at the airline or in SK law. In the USA and on USA airlines, and likely in Europe too, such protections are in place for the safety of all.

This is what should have happened:

Korean Air Captain who Tried to Drink InFlight Fired, FA who Stopped Him Promoted.