YYZYYT
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:59 pm

I don't know anything about Korean culture, but I do see an airline that has a serious problem. Yes, its true that they haven't flown a perfectly good 747 into the ground in the last 20 years... but the fact is that they crashed 5 aircraft in a 2-year period (more or less) in the late 1990s.

How is it even possible that a major airline has a culture where (i) a flying pilot can even THINK about trying to openly drink alcohol, while flying or (ii) that the crew were somehow afraid to confront him about it is very, very disturbing to me.
 
txjim
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:37 pm

thekorean wrote:
It’s a disturbing incident but people really need to stop talking about what Korean culture is when they have no idea what it actually is.

Perhaps westerners don't fully understand the culture but many of us have had ample opportunities to view it with direct interaction and form opinions based on these observations. They not be accurate and we may not know the historical events that led to observed behaviors but I feel justified to form cause and effect opinions. In my own example, I spent an ungodly amount of time at Hyundai Electronics (before they changed names) in Ichon. I directly observed behaviors discussed here. I'm sure I don't understand the culture well enough but I sure as hell know what I saw and what effort was required on my part to deal with the culture.

I'll add my own Korean Air story, although I'll admit it's from the 90s. I was typically on the earlier LAX-Seoul in one of the very few trips in F. It was myself and a couple co-workers, 2 other passengers and one uniformed pilot in the F compartment. The post-dinner bottle of brandy was served and passed around. Ended up in the pilot's hands who greatly helped himself. I fell asleep for a bit and woke up to see a different pilot seated in F. Our brandy-loving friend could have gone down to C or Y, I suppose, but I very much believe he was now in one of the pilot seats.
 
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thekorean
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:13 pm

txjim wrote:
thekorean wrote:
It’s a disturbing incident but people really need to stop talking about what Korean culture is when they have no idea what it actually is.

Perhaps westerners don't fully understand the culture but many of us have had ample opportunities to view it with direct interaction and form opinions based on these observations. They not be accurate and we may not know the historical events that led to observed behaviors but I feel justified to form cause and effect opinions. In my own example, I spent an ungodly amount of time at Hyundai Electronics (before they changed names) in Ichon. I directly observed behaviors discussed here. I'm sure I don't understand the culture well enough but I sure as hell know what I saw and what effort was required on my part to deal with the culture.

I'll add my own Korean Air story, although I'll admit it's from the 90s. I was typically on the earlier LAX-Seoul in one of the very few trips in F. It was myself and a couple co-workers, 2 other passengers and one uniformed pilot in the F compartment. The post-dinner bottle of brandy was served and passed around. Ended up in the pilot's hands who greatly helped himself. I fell asleep for a bit and woke up to see a different pilot seated in F. Our brandy-loving friend could have gone down to C or Y, I suppose, but I very much believe he was now in one of the pilot seats.

I understand criticism toward Korean corporate culture. And its fair but I feel like talking about Korean culture as a whole is not a fair game.
 
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LX015
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:31 pm

Ugly51 wrote:
They crashed a perfectly serviceable 777 in San Francisco, A visual approach on either runway in good weather is normally straight forward.
This is more about Leadership and etsonal values.
This Captain should be out of a job.
The CSM on the other hand deserves a commendation fron this shambles of an international airline.



They who? You do realize that was a completely different airline from the one in this article, right?
 
ScottB
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:51 pm

thekorean wrote:
I understand criticism toward Korean corporate culture. And its fair but I feel like talking about Korean culture as a whole is not a fair game.


The point is not to criticize Korean culture or even Korean corporate culture. Rather, the point is that it is unacceptable to use "Korean culture" as an excuse for poor safety practices and what has got to be the worst possible response to whistleblowing about those poor safety practices. The correct response to filing a report about a pilot asking for alcohol while on duty is NOT to demote the person pointing out a dangerous situation.
 
D L X
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:56 pm

ScottB wrote:
The correct response to filing a report about a pilot asking for alcohol while on duty is NOT to demote the person pointing out a dangerous situation.

And BLATANTLY ILLEGAL situation!

Korea should make it a crime to attempt to drink alcohol within 24 hours of flying (if that isn't the law already) so that next time, the authorities step in with an arrest when something like this occurs. The handling of this pilot should not be left to the airline.
 
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thekorean
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:02 pm

ScottB wrote:
thekorean wrote:
I understand criticism toward Korean corporate culture. And its fair but I feel like talking about Korean culture as a whole is not a fair game.


The point is not to criticize Korean culture or even Korean corporate culture. Rather, the point is that it is unacceptable to use "Korean culture" as an excuse for poor safety practices and what has got to be the worst possible response to whistleblowing about those poor safety practices. The correct response to filing a report about a pilot asking for alcohol while on duty is NOT to demote the person pointing out a dangerous situation.

But who is doing that?
 
trent768
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:13 pm

You can clearly see the seniority culture in Korea from its entertainment industry. My best friend in college and his gf loves to watch Korean variety show, sometimes I join them and noticed something interesting. When a boy/girlband got invited to the show, the youngest in the group is always certainly be the quiet one and the oldest one is in control of everything, even if they're older by just a few months. Most of asian cultures teaches us to respect people that's older than us, that's why we (at least in my country) have titles for calling people who is a bit older than us, including our older sibling. But even for us Asian, the way seniority/age works in the Korean culture is bit to much.

I'm not saying that they must change their culture, but at least try not to fully implement it on the professional setting.
 
twicearound
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:13 am

D L X wrote:
ScottB wrote:
The correct response to filing a report about a pilot asking for alcohol while on duty is NOT to demote the person pointing out a dangerous situation.

And BLATANTLY ILLEGAL situation!

Korea should make it a crime to attempt to drink alcohol within 24 hours of flying (if that isn't the law already) so that next time, the authorities step in with an arrest when something like this occurs. The handling of this pilot should not be left to the airline.


24 hours? No airline in the US is that strict. The FAA minimum is 8 hours.
 
D L X
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:14 am

twicearound wrote:
D L X wrote:
ScottB wrote:
The correct response to filing a report about a pilot asking for alcohol while on duty is NOT to demote the person pointing out a dangerous situation.

And BLATANTLY ILLEGAL situation!

Korea should make it a crime to attempt to drink alcohol within 24 hours of flying (if that isn't the law already) so that next time, the authorities step in with an arrest when something like this occurs. The handling of this pilot should not be left to the airline.


24 hours? No airline in the US is that strict. The FAA minimum is 8 hours.


My bad on 24 hours.

0 hours is still damn illegal.
 
Etheereal
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:20 am

continental004 wrote:
Ugh. Misogyny at its worst.

Come on, what are you trying to stir up with that??
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
ITSTours
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:36 am

There is no Korean culture that makes any of these norms.
Corporate culture is a different thing.
 
GZM1
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:52 am

ITSTours wrote:
There is no Korean culture that makes any of these norms.
Corporate culture is a different thing.

This! Corporate culture or even military discipline. When you are sergeant you do not behave like that to your captain. You are asking for it.
It’s all Greek to me! Aeroplane Basic Category Cycle Dynamic Economics Ecstasy Fantasy Galaxy Geometry Harmony History Horizon Idea Logic Magnetism Music Mystery Nautical Orchestra Organism Phenomenon Political Problem Symphony Technology Telephone Zone
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:22 am

twicearound wrote:
D L X wrote:
ScottB wrote:
The correct response to filing a report about a pilot asking for alcohol while on duty is NOT to demote the person pointing out a dangerous situation.

And BLATANTLY ILLEGAL situation!

Korea should make it a crime to attempt to drink alcohol within 24 hours of flying (if that isn't the law already) so that next time, the authorities step in with an arrest when something like this occurs. The handling of this pilot should not be left to the airline.


24 hours? No airline in the US is that strict. The FAA minimum is 8 hours.


Boeing’s policy is 12 hours bottle to throttle, as do some US airlines I believe.

Is it possible that some of this story is missing?
 
Virtual737
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:24 am

ITSTours wrote:
There is no Korean culture that makes any of these norms.
Corporate culture is a different thing.


Maybe the culture of respect for elders and respect for seniority is just a coincidence?

GZM1 wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
There is no Korean culture that makes any of these norms.
Corporate culture is a different thing.

This! Corporate culture or even military discipline. When you are sergeant you do not behave like that to your captain. You are asking for it.


I would prefer a military where a senior is more afraid of issuing an illegal order than a subordinate is of questioning it.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:05 am

GZM1 wrote:
This! Corporate culture or even military discipline. When you are sergeant you do not behave like that to your captain. You are asking for it.


What exactly are you comparing? Are you saying that this flight attendant is similar to a sargeant and that she shouldn't have challenged the captain? If so then that's exactly what's wrong with some airlines.
 
airplaneboy
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:09 am

Does anyone know if the Korean media has reported on this incident?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:34 am

Max Q wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Max Q wrote:
There’s a few airlines I’d never fly on
Korean air has always been at the top of my list

:checkmark: Same.

Agreed, same goes for Asiana, they crashed a 777 in SFO because they literally couldn’t fly a visual approach
Incomprehensibly incompetent

True, and same for me.

The one I'm on the fence about is CI.... they also had an inexcusably terrible safety culture/record in the '90s, but they seem to have gotten their sh!t together and behaved over the last decade and a half.

I'm almost to the point of being comfortable stepping aboard them. But then again, BR is right there too, and they have a flawless safety history, so why not just use them. #Dilemma
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Max Q
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:12 am

TWA had a ‘no drinking on layovers’ policy for their pilots, in an era where boozing it up down line was the norm


Don’t think many complied, otoh they wouldn’t be as idiotic as this KAL Captain
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:33 pm

yabeweb wrote:
continental004 wrote:
Ugh. Misogyny at its worst.

Why make it a political / sexual thing, how do you even know the cabin chief was a she?

Damn, hope you are not as quick in bed

Maybe because it was already proven (comment #23) that the Cabin Chief was a she. From the article:
According to the report, the flight’s captain walked past a tray of pre-departure drinks and tried to take a glass of champagne, but a cabin crew member blocked him, saying he can’t drink alcohol. He responded that she could then give it to him in a paper cup instead.

It's nice to participate in a thread, it's better to read the previous comments before posting yours...
 
YYZYYT
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:11 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
yabeweb wrote:
continental004 wrote:
Ugh. Misogyny at its worst.

Why make it a political / sexual thing, how do you even know the cabin chief was a she?

Damn, hope you are not as quick in bed

Maybe because it was already proven (comment #23) that the Cabin Chief was a she. From the article:
According to the report, the flight’s captain walked past a tray of pre-departure drinks and tried to take a glass of champagne, but a cabin crew member blocked him, saying he can’t drink alcohol. He responded that she could then give it to him in a paper cup instead.

It's nice to participate in a thread, it's better to read the previous comments before posting yours...


Sorry WayexTDI, but to read the article carefully, the "she" in your quote is the "crew member" who refused the Captain twice, but the Cabin Chief is only referred to as "Cabin Chief".

That's not to say that the original comment is necessarily inaccurate, but we just don't know.
 
GZM1
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:49 pm

GZM1 wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
There is no Korean culture that makes any of these norms.
Corporate culture is a different thing.

This! Corporate culture or even military discipline. When you are sergeant you do not behave like that to your captain. You are asking for it.


I would prefer a military where a senior is more afraid of issuing an illegal order than a subordinate is of questioning it.

There is no such thing. «Where Logic ends, Army begins». It’s an old saying from my years in the army.
It’s all Greek to me! Aeroplane Basic Category Cycle Dynamic Economics Ecstasy Fantasy Galaxy Geometry Harmony History Horizon Idea Logic Magnetism Music Mystery Nautical Orchestra Organism Phenomenon Political Problem Symphony Technology Telephone Zone
 
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garpd
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:14 pm

This nonsense is why we've had Korean (and related) crews fly perfectly good aircraft into terrain. The subordinates are too scared to say something for fear of something BS like this happening. KAL, another airline I will avoid. I want to fly with airlines I know embrace crew pointing out errors of their crew mates or stopping them doing something stupid.
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slider
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:38 pm

thekorean wrote:
txjim wrote:
thekorean wrote:
It’s a disturbing incident but people really need to stop talking about what Korean culture is when they have no idea what it actually is.

Perhaps westerners don't fully understand the culture but many of us have had ample opportunities to view it with direct interaction and form opinions based on these observations. They not be accurate and we may not know the historical events that led to observed behaviors but I feel justified to form cause and effect opinions. In my own example, I spent an ungodly amount of time at Hyundai Electronics (before they changed names) in Ichon. I directly observed behaviors discussed here. I'm sure I don't understand the culture well enough but I sure as hell know what I saw and what effort was required on my part to deal with the culture.

I'll add my own Korean Air story, although I'll admit it's from the 90s. I was typically on the earlier LAX-Seoul in one of the very few trips in F. It was myself and a couple co-workers, 2 other passengers and one uniformed pilot in the F compartment. The post-dinner bottle of brandy was served and passed around. Ended up in the pilot's hands who greatly helped himself. I fell asleep for a bit and woke up to see a different pilot seated in F. Our brandy-loving friend could have gone down to C or Y, I suppose, but I very much believe he was now in one of the pilot seats.

I understand criticism toward Korean corporate culture. And its fair but I feel like talking about Korean culture as a whole is not a fair game.


For the sake of argument, why wouldn't it be fair game?

The corporate culture is a direct reflection, in this case, of the societal culture. One rooted in authority, very hierarchical, and one with distinct gender roles. KE has proven that for a long time, as well as Asiana. There remains that Confucianism-based hierarchy. That doesn't play well in airline land in the 21st Century.
 
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garpd
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:41 pm

slider wrote:
The corporate culture is a direct reflection, in this case, of the societal culture. One rooted in authority, very hierarchical, and one with distinct gender roles. KE has proven that for a long time, as well as Asiana. There remains that Confucianism-based hierarchy. That doesn't play well in airline land in the 21st Century.


Bingo :checkmark:
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
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thekorean
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:04 pm

slider wrote:
thekorean wrote:
txjim wrote:
Perhaps westerners don't fully understand the culture but many of us have had ample opportunities to view it with direct interaction and form opinions based on these observations. They not be accurate and we may not know the historical events that led to observed behaviors but I feel justified to form cause and effect opinions. In my own example, I spent an ungodly amount of time at Hyundai Electronics (before they changed names) in Ichon. I directly observed behaviors discussed here. I'm sure I don't understand the culture well enough but I sure as hell know what I saw and what effort was required on my part to deal with the culture.

I'll add my own Korean Air story, although I'll admit it's from the 90s. I was typically on the earlier LAX-Seoul in one of the very few trips in F. It was myself and a couple co-workers, 2 other passengers and one uniformed pilot in the F compartment. The post-dinner bottle of brandy was served and passed around. Ended up in the pilot's hands who greatly helped himself. I fell asleep for a bit and woke up to see a different pilot seated in F. Our brandy-loving friend could have gone down to C or Y, I suppose, but I very much believe he was now in one of the pilot seats.

I understand criticism toward Korean corporate culture. And its fair but I feel like talking about Korean culture as a whole is not a fair game.


For the sake of argument, why wouldn't it be fair game?

The corporate culture is a direct reflection, in this case, of the societal culture. One rooted in authority, very hierarchical, and one with distinct gender roles. KE has proven that for a long time, as well as Asiana. There remains that Confucianism-based hierarchy. That doesn't play well in airline land in the 21st Century.

Because it tends to get judgmental without all the facts.
 
kiowa
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:30 am

Someone correct me if I am wrong but didn’t the FAA require a pilot with an FAA license on 4 airlines at one time because of all their mistakes. The FAA wanted to be able to take certificate action if needed against a pilot. I believe Korean was one of those airlines.
 
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smithbs
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:12 am

chimborazo wrote:
smithbs wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
It is not for me to say it is right or wrong, but it is so very different. To just say that they should adopt modern safety rules is, with due respect, totally missing the real issue. Whatever the "fix", it is not going to happen overnight. You're effectively telling them that up is down, left is right and white is black. A big stick approach and finger pointing just doesn't work.


Agreed!

Westerners are so quick to cry for a culture change, yet have no inkling of how deeply ingrained these issues are and how long it takes to gradually move it. Often we opt for the quick change, which more often than not creates an even greater backlash.


And “Westerners” have the right when their unknowing public use international airlines, and those international airlines are flying into those western countries, to ban them if their procedures are not up to standard.

Saying “well westerners don’t understand their culture” is not an excuse for them not having the operational safety standards required of airmen and women that the vast majority of airlines around the world should and do have.

Maybe if this airline did get banned from using western airspace they’d suddenly realise that it is actually quite possible to adopt modern safety standards, basis of which is CRM and cabin crew supporting that.


Quite a sharp escalation there. So the solution is to ban a whole airline over something like this, helping to ensure that each culture gets more isolated and less likely to fix these kinds of isolated incidents?
 
chimborazo
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:17 am

smithbs wrote:
chimborazo wrote:
smithbs wrote:

Agreed!

Westerners are so quick to cry for a culture change, yet have no inkling of how deeply ingrained these issues are and how long it takes to gradually move it. Often we opt for the quick change, which more often than not creates an even greater backlash.


And “Westerners” have the right when their unknowing public use international airlines, and those international airlines are flying into those western countries, to ban them if their procedures are not up to standard.

Saying “well westerners don’t understand their culture” is not an excuse for them not having the operational safety standards required of airmen and women that the vast majority of airlines around the world should and do have.

Maybe if this airline did get banned from using western airspace they’d suddenly realise that it is actually quite possible to adopt modern safety standards, basis of which is CRM and cabin crew supporting that.


Quite a sharp escalation there. So the solution is to ban a whole airline over something like this, helping to ensure that each culture gets more isolated and less likely to fix these kinds of isolated incidents?


Not what I’m saying at all... many comments up thread are essentially saying “it’s Korean culture, you can’t change it” which I find a bit ridiculous. Of course you can change it. It doesn’t mean the whole of their society is to change... just the part that involves people responsible for taking aeroplanes into the sky.
My point is that saying it can’t be done would soon change were it to mean they weren’t able to fly to western countries.
 
Max Q
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:43 am

chimborazo wrote:
smithbs wrote:
chimborazo wrote:

And “Westerners” have the right when their unknowing public use international airlines, and those international airlines are flying into those western countries, to ban them if their procedures are not up to standard.

Saying “well westerners don’t understand their culture” is not an excuse for them not having the operational safety standards required of airmen and women that the vast majority of airlines around the world should and do have.

Maybe if this airline did get banned from using western airspace they’d suddenly realise that it is actually quite possible to adopt modern safety standards, basis of which is CRM and cabin crew supporting that.


Quite a sharp escalation there. So the solution is to ban a whole airline over something like this, helping to ensure that each culture gets more isolated and less likely to fix these kinds of isolated incidents?


Not what I’m saying at all... many comments up thread are essentially saying “it’s Korean culture, you can’t change it” which I find a bit ridiculous. Of course you can change it. It doesn’t mean the whole of their society is to change... just the part that involves people responsible for taking aeroplanes into the sky.
My point is that saying it can’t be done would soon change were it to mean they weren’t able to fly to western countries.




I don’t think it can be changed, you can’t ‘delete’ hundreds of years of entrenched
cultural hierarchy


Korean and Asiana will always be dodgy
because of this, best avoided
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
yabeweb
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:55 am

WayexTDI wrote:
yabeweb wrote:
continental004 wrote:
Ugh. Misogyny at its worst.

Why make it a political / sexual thing, how do you even know the cabin chief was a she?

Damn, hope you are not as quick in bed

Maybe because it was already proven (comment #23) that the Cabin Chief was a she. From the article:
According to the report, the flight’s captain walked past a tray of pre-departure drinks and tried to take a glass of champagne, but a cabin crew member blocked him, saying he can’t drink alcohol. He responded that she could then give it to him in a paper cup instead.

It's nice to participate in a thread, it's better to read the previous comments before posting yours...


I read the post, but says nothing about the Cabin Chief, just a cabin crew.....well duh there are female people onboard the plane... but does not prove Cabin Chief was a she.

"It's nice to participate in a thread, it's better" with facts.

YYZYYT wrote:
Sorry WayexTDI, but to read the article carefully, the "she" in your quote is the "crew member" who refused the Captain twice, but the Cabin Chief is only referred to as "Cabin Chief".

That's not to say that the original comment is necessarily inaccurate, but we just don't know.

Exactly, never said it is untrue / inaccurate, but seems like a quick judge there.

As you pointed Cabin Crew != Cabin Chief

We are lucky it was not in US otherwise we would have assumed the CC was black....

All I am saying, people tend to justfy / judge or interpret things to their liking a little too quick, FACTS over assumptions / interpretations.
 
chimborazo
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Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:28 pm

Max Q wrote:
chimborazo wrote:
smithbs wrote:

Quite a sharp escalation there. So the solution is to ban a whole airline over something like this, helping to ensure that each culture gets more isolated and less likely to fix these kinds of isolated incidents?


Not what I’m saying at all... many comments up thread are essentially saying “it’s Korean culture, you can’t change it” which I find a bit ridiculous. Of course you can change it. It doesn’t mean the whole of their society is to change... just the part that involves people responsible for taking aeroplanes into the sky.
My point is that saying it can’t be done would soon change were it to mean they weren’t able to fly to western countries.




I don’t think it can be changed, you can’t ‘delete’ hundreds of years of entrenched
cultural hierarchy


Korean and Asiana will always be dodgy
because of this, best avoided


Sure, I’m not disagreeing in a wider cultural sense... that’s a mammoth undertaking and is not necesssry. It’s their culture and if one doesn’t like it one doesn’t have to go there (or travel on Korean Air).

It would be interesting to hold some Sim sessions where the captain deliberately makes mistakes and see if the junior pilot(s) would speak up. I would imagine that something along these lines was implemented in the Delta support. It would also be interesting to see it tested in a safe environment on a cabin-crew to pilots interaction.

ALL behaviours, even deeply ingrained, can be changed with the right training and culture surrounding it. However, if the senior leaders still hold on to a particular culture underneath.... the culture will never change at the point where it is necessary.

Which takes me back to my point about banning: if there was a genuine threat/actualisation of this, things WOULD change. They would have to.

It all comes down to the $$$
 
traindoc
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:35 am

Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:19 pm

I was living in Seoul when a KE 707, Paris to Seoul, flew over Siberia and was intercepted by a Russian Mig. The plane was shot at, 2 passengers were killed, and the pilot landed on a frozen lake saving everyone else. I was in Asia in 1997, scheduled to fly KE from ICN to JFK, when KE crashed a 747 in Guam. Rescheduled myself on SQ! I will never fly on either KE or OZ because of their pilot culture!
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2090
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:20 pm

continental004 wrote:
Ugh. Misogyny at its worst.


Uh what? No where in the article does it say that the cabin chief was a female. Perhaps your sexism just made you assume it was...
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Gangurru
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:30 pm

Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:20 pm

Regarding the comments on the unspecified gender of the cabin chief, it may be worth noting that 90% of KE cabin crew are female.

The airline has been investigated for gender discrimination. Since 1997, men have been barred from applying for cabin crew positions unless they are already Korean Air employees.

http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article ... sIdx=36684
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Korean Air Captain Tries to Drink Inflight, FA Who Stopped Him Demoted

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:27 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
twicearound wrote:
D L X wrote:
And BLATANTLY ILLEGAL situation!

Korea should make it a crime to attempt to drink alcohol within 24 hours of flying (if that isn't the law already) so that next time, the authorities step in with an arrest when something like this occurs. The handling of this pilot should not be left to the airline.


24 hours? No airline in the US is that strict. The FAA minimum is 8 hours.


Boeing’s policy is 12 hours bottle to throttle, as do some US airlines I believe.

FIA motor sport rules for alcohol and drugs are zero. Doesn't matter whether you had the last drink 6 or 24 hours ago. If you are tested, and not zero, you don't race, can be suspended, or banned indefinitely. Why don't the same standards apply to flight crew?

At least in motor sport, all four wheels should remain on the ground. Contestants mostly go in the same direction. Cars and drivers have safety gear. And fire fighting and medics are seconds away.

Driver standards are enforced by the course, event organisers, national and international race authorities.

In various threads, pilot competence and standards have been discussed. Here is a perfect example, where the airline is setting the bar too low. Perhaps more random drug and alcohol testing is required before departure and on arrival, and cabin crew should be championed for protecting passengers, not the reverse.

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