Dalmd88
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:49 pm

Oliver2020 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

MHO only. I see the 717s staying until at least 2026-27 (they're great small short range airplanes), and a top up A220 order, including launch of the A220-500, within 18 months from today.


I think the 717s will last longer, but the timeframe depends on lease terms and A220 costs. My back of the envelope math goes to 2028-2029 for best terms.

Lightsaber


Are they still bringing the BR715 in house as well? I'm sure that will be an additional consideration on how long the 717 last.

It has been done in ATL for two years now. I don't see that as a reason to keep the 717 after the MD88/90 are gone. We need the shop space for more profitable engines(GTF). The 717 is going to be a real orphan once the other T tails are gone. The airframe parts supply will get real thin. It's hard to do overhauls on the airframe with out sheetmetal parts.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:01 am

ScottB wrote:
acjbbj wrote:
Sad... the MD-90 won't even live for 30 years


It's impressive the MD-90 made it this long considering that fewer than 120 were built. The last MD-80s came off the line around the same time as the last MD-90s and they're also being parked due to it becoming uneconomical to source parts -- and roughly ten times as many MD-80s were built.

AlexBrewster03 wrote:
Thank god. I hope the 717 follows soon after.


The 717 is a comfortable ride. But it's probably done as a type once DL phases theirs out (unless someone else takes them).


Right now, you have four operators: DL, HA, V7, and NC (as QantasLink), although FL and TW were also operators at one time. HA is in a particular box because the next best thing available engine-wise, the A220-100, likely could not be done with a 25-minute turn that HA does with its 717s (the quickest turns with an A220 are currently done by BT at 35 minutes), while the 717s do 25-minute turns and as many as 20 flights a day. I have to wonder if Airbus has pitched the A220 to HA yet. (The seven T5 examples were all sent to Kemble.)
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:08 am

MSPNWA wrote:
It's still safe to put money down that the MD-90s will be gone sooner than 2022 (as we've seen before, DL plays it hush-hush about things less than flattering to investors). Already today it's an expensive subfleet. Dragging it out makes no sense economically.


This post is internally inconsistent. If its an expensive subfleet that makes no sense to continue to have...wouldn't it be best to announce retiring the aircraft sooner? Investors would applaud such cost reduction. Taking a one time charge isn't a big deal relative to cost management.
 
Northwest1988
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:24 am

Get your McDonnell Douglas fix while you can!
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:31 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

I think the 717s will last longer, but the timeframe depends on lease terms and A220 costs. My back of the envelope math goes to 2028-2029 for best terms.

Lightsaber


Are they still bringing the BR715 in house as well? I'm sure that will be an additional consideration on how long the 717 last.

It has been done in ATL for two years now. I don't see that as a reason to keep the 717 after the MD88/90 are gone. We need the shop space for more profitable engines(GTF). The 717 is going to be a real orphan once the other T tails are gone. The airframe parts supply will get real thin. It's hard to do overhauls on the airframe with out sheetmetal parts.


They're already burnt the money into making a shop for the BR, and they apparently have made the space for the GTF where the JT8 was.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:43 am

jbs2886 wrote:
This post is internally inconsistent. If its an expensive subfleet that makes no sense to continue to have...wouldn't it be best to announce retiring the aircraft sooner? Investors would applaud such cost reduction. Taking a one time charge isn't a big deal relative to cost management.


Because it's not cost savings when DL has missed on their depreciation runout. There's no way spin it into an applause. Take into account what the investor sees. Look at the significant charge - $60m - to bring it up two years. Bringing retirement closer would make that charge even higher. No company wants to announce a surprise charge (in this case a mistake in planning) higher than it has to be. And if DL is not 100% ready to publicly commit to an earlier retirement date, it makes sense to play it conservatively to investors. I expect an update to the MD-90 retirement at a later date. Spread out the pain.
 
crownvic
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:08 am

MartijnNL wrote:
AlexBrewster03 wrote:
Thank god. I hope the 717 follows soon after.

I just don't get replies like this on a website for aviation enthusiasts. I thought we all love aircraft. And the more character they have, the better. I'd go out of my way to fly on the MD-80, MD-90 or B717.

A few years ago I actually travelled from Europe to the United States so I could fly on the MD-90 (Delta) and MD-80 (American). Earlier I had done the same to log the B717 (AirTran). The T-tails are great aircraft and a real pleasure to travel on.


I don't either. I always look as these types of comments the equivalent of the genius that drives in the left lane and holds up traffic and could care less. They don't belong there, yet they think they have all the right to be there.
 
acjbbj
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:55 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
The variants of 737s, 220s, 320s, 757s etc make no difference in a staffing perspective, as it’s a common type rating. A single-type rating small fleet of MD90s does however create cost and reliability inefficiencies.

Is the Original really on the same type rating as the Classic, NG, or Max ratings?
Douglas Aircraft Company
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United857
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:35 am

acjbbj wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
The variants of 737s, 220s, 320s, 757s etc make no difference in a staffing perspective, as it’s a common type rating. A single-type rating small fleet of MD90s does however create cost and reliability inefficiencies.

Is the Original really on the same type rating as the Classic, NG, or Max ratings?

Yes under the FAA, no under EASA.

FAA: https://registry.faa.gov/TypeRatings/

EASA: https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... t_Acft.pdf
A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A346 A388 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B748 B752 B764 B772 B77L B77W B788 CRJ2 E145 E17S E190 MD88 MD90
AA AC B6 CA CX CZ DL EK FM HU JL KA LH LX MU NH TK UA US
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:01 am

Oliver2020 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

MHO only. I see the 717s staying until at least 2026-27 (they're great small short range airplanes), and a top up A220 order, including launch of the A220-500, within 18 months from today.


I think the 717s will last longer, but the timeframe depends on lease terms and A220 costs. My back of the envelope math goes to 2028-2029 for best terms.

Lightsaber


Are they still bringing the BR715 in house as well? I'm sure that will be an additional consideration on how long the 717 last.

Last I heard, the plan was still to bring the BR715 work in house to DL. With today's tax laws, they only need six years to be ahead.

The V2500D5 and JT8D work being out of house is certainly effecting their economic life.

Is the PW1500G going in house? I probably read the answer, but we're getting ready to deliver at work, so crunch time for me!

Lightsaber
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:03 am

777Mech wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:

Are they still bringing the BR715 in house as well? I'm sure that will be an additional consideration on how long the 717 last.

It has been done in ATL for two years now. I don't see that as a reason to keep the 717 after the MD88/90 are gone. We need the shop space for more profitable engines(GTF). The 717 is going to be a real orphan once the other T tails are gone. The airframe parts supply will get real thin. It's hard to do overhauls on the airframe with out sheetmetal parts.


They're already burnt the money into making a shop for the BR, and they apparently have made the space for the GTF where the JT8 was.

Good to hear the GTF, PW1500G, is going in house.
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bcbhokie
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:55 am

I love aircraft diversity as much as anyone else here, but there are only so many times I can get stranded without getting home because of an MD-88/MD-90 maintenance issue before I decide it's time for them to go. I look forward to seeing them in museums and reminiscing about the good old days, but from a practical standpoint the A220 is just a better passenger experience in every way now.

McDonnell-Douglas did a great job building these back in the day, but they are definitely in the sunset of their usefulness.
 
kimimm19
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:42 am

Sad day to see the T-Tails go.. I am hoping to catch a ride on one before they go out. The last time I was on one was around 2009.

With speculation about top-up orders, I know that other than engine issues, passengers and euro airlines alike love the A220, but how is Delta finding them? Any official word other than the conversion to the larger variant and the small top-up order?
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:38 am

Sad day. Very sorry to see the M90 go. And the M88, of course. DL with no T-tails (or few...) feels strange...Let's hope the 717 gets to stay. They are great birds, they are a very nice ride, and look and fly cool. The steep powerful take-off is amazing.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:42 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

I think the 717s will last longer, but the timeframe depends on lease terms and A220 costs. My back of the envelope math goes to 2028-2029 for best terms.

Lightsaber


Are they still bringing the BR715 in house as well? I'm sure that will be an additional consideration on how long the 717 last.

It has been done in ATL for two years now. I don't see that as a reason to keep the 717 after the MD88/90 are gone. We need the shop space for more profitable engines(GTF). The 717 is going to be a real orphan once the other T tails are gone. The airframe parts supply will get real thin. It's hard to do overhauls on the airframe with out sheetmetal parts.


DAL with no T-tails is soooo wrong.

We could maybe ask them to buy a bunch of [highly discounted I would speculate] ARJ-21/700s, just for the sake of "DC-9 looks", or else see if they could snatch a few of the last remaining DC-9 flying around in Africa.....
I am sure DL tech would be able to get them up to tip top shape -AND with 717 interiors- in no time! :bouncy:
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:59 am

oldannyboy wrote:

DAL with no T-tails is soooo wrong.


You mean this one won't do it for you? :duck: :duck: :duck:

Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:11 pm

SteelChair wrote:
AlexBrewster03 wrote:
Thank god. I hope the 717 follows soon after.
Also, is there a future A220 top off order in the future?


MHO only. I see the 717s staying until at least 2026-27 (they're great small short range airplanes), and a top up A220 order, including launch of the A220-500, within 18 months from today.


If they keep them until they’re as old as the 88s now, expect them to be retired in 2030. If they keep them around until they’re as old as the 90s now, expect them to be around until 2027.

But expect them to be around for quite a long time, nobody buys a new airplane type to keep it for less than ten years!
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:26 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:

But expect them to be around for quite a long time, nobody buys a new airplane type to keep it for less than ten years!

DL got them cheap, it is not like they bought the 717 at new plane prices.

I don’t see the 717s lasting 10 more years in the fleet.
 
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:47 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:

Are they still bringing the BR715 in house as well? I'm sure that will be an additional consideration on how long the 717 last.

It has been done in ATL for two years now. I don't see that as a reason to keep the 717 after the MD88/90 are gone. We need the shop space for more profitable engines(GTF). The 717 is going to be a real orphan once the other T tails are gone. The airframe parts supply will get real thin. It's hard to do overhauls on the airframe with out sheetmetal parts.


DAL with no T-tails is soooo wrong.

We could maybe ask them to buy a bunch of [highly discounted I would speculate] ARJ-21/700s, just for the sake of "DC-9 looks", or else see if they could snatch a few of the last remaining DC-9 flying around in Africa.....
I am sure DL tech would be able to get them up to tip top shape -AND with 717 interiors- in no time! :bouncy:


Even Wikipedia acknowledges that the ARJ-21 is developed from the MD-80!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_ARJ21
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
ScottB
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:27 pm

dampfnudel wrote:
And the last one will most definitely be one of HA’s birds. Speaking of HA, would they be interested in some of those 717s from DL?


aemoreira1981 wrote:
Right now, you have four operators: DL, HA, V7, and NC (as QantasLink), although FL and TW were also operators at one time. HA is in a particular box because the next best thing available engine-wise, the A220-100, likely could not be done with a 25-minute turn that HA does with its 717s


The problem for HA, as well as the other operators, is that DL has just over 60% of the global fleet, and the economies of scale for supporting that global fleet will evaporate when it goes from 148 aircraft to 57. V7 already plans to phase theirs out and replace them with A319s. Long-term, I think it will make sense for HA to go with A220s or A320neos for the interisland fleet and simply accept longer turn times, rather than deal with trying to maintain an orphan type.

MSPNWA wrote:
Because it's not cost savings when DL has missed on their depreciation runout. There's no way spin it into an applause. Take into account what the investor sees. Look at the significant charge - $60m - to bring it up two years. Bringing retirement closer would make that charge even higher. No company wants to announce a surprise charge (in this case a mistake in planning) higher than it has to be.


Actually, most companies do try to take all the pain of special charges at once. Wall Street tends to ignore these since investors are generally more concerned with ongoing operating metrics, and it's preferable to have a special charge impact a single quarter/year rather than several. And honestly, a special charge of $60 million for accelerated depreciation of over 60 aircraft is bupkis. It basically implies their ownership cost of each aircraft works out to about $500K/year of depreciation and that is a mere pittance compared to the ownership costs of A320s or 738s which came off the line around when DL inducted all those secondhand MD-90s. They were cheap and offered unit costs within a few percent of the in-production narrowbodies from Airbus & Boeing.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:54 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
This post is internally inconsistent. If its an expensive subfleet that makes no sense to continue to have...wouldn't it be best to announce retiring the aircraft sooner? Investors would applaud such cost reduction. Taking a one time charge isn't a big deal relative to cost management.


Because it's not cost savings when DL has missed on their depreciation runout. There's no way spin it into an applause. Take into account what the investor sees. Look at the significant charge - $60m - to bring it up two years. Bringing retirement closer would make that charge even higher. No company wants to announce a surprise charge (in this case a mistake in planning) higher than it has to be. And if DL is not 100% ready to publicly commit to an earlier retirement date, it makes sense to play it conservatively to investors. I expect an update to the MD-90 retirement at a later date. Spread out the pain.


Companies accelerate depreciation all the time. DL has tons of free cash flow right now - even after the planned receipt of 80 new mainline aircraft this year. They're quickly getting rid of something old to get something better. We can applaud that whether we are flying enthusiasts or shareholders.

Let me preempt you in an argument that buying 2nd-hand MD-90s was a bad deal. It kept capital outlays low in a time when DL was not as profitable as it is today. (AA has lots of new planes but has regularly had negative free cash flow). Maybe DL isn't keeping MD-90s as long as it expected but the sum of depreciation is the same. $60 million against $2.5 Billion free cash flow in two quarters, and $518 million in profit sharing accrual for this quarter alone, is not something to worry about.
 
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:22 pm

777Mech wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:

Are they still bringing the BR715 in house as well? I'm sure that will be an additional consideration on how long the 717 last.

It has been done in ATL for two years now. I don't see that as a reason to keep the 717 after the MD88/90 are gone. We need the shop space for more profitable engines(GTF). The 717 is going to be a real orphan once the other T tails are gone. The airframe parts supply will get real thin. It's hard to do overhauls on the airframe with out sheetmetal parts.


They're already burnt the money into making a shop for the BR, and they apparently have made the space for the GTF where the JT8 was.

The JT8 space is WAY too small for all the GTF work that is planned. They are there right now, but it is only a start to the shop. The money that was burned to set up the BR shop is ancient history now compared to the cash flow the GTF is projected to bring. I would suspect the BR is not the only engine line that gets closed or moved to make room for the GTF. There is talk about moving one or two of the big motor shops (PW200/4000/CF6) out to the bay 5 hangar space.Time will tell were the shuffle will end up. The biggest problem with the BR shop is it brings in very little outside work. All the others in the building bring in $$$.
 
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:34 pm

A few questions/consderations:

When DL made the decision to acquire 2nd hand MD-90s in 2010/2011 timeframe, did they seriously consider any new order narrowbodies?
The big 739 order was announced in August 2011 with deliveries starting in late 2013.
The 717 announcement came in July 2012
The DC-9s were on the way out, as they had just retired the remainder of the 30/40s and the 50's were only going to stay other 2 years.
The A321 order came later.

From my perspective, that despite what we are looking at in hindsight they MD-90s were a necessary stop-gap since DL had too many short-medium term fleet replacement priorities. Including the 744s, all the money needed for cabin refurbishments, the need to replace older 757, A320, and now MD-88s.
The MD-90s helped to space out some of the fleet replacement simply because DL (and NW) had nearly a decade of no new narrowbodies and had a glut of aircraft coming due for replacement at the same time.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:44 pm

ScottB wrote:
Actually, most companies do try to take all the pain of special charges at once. Wall Street tends to ignore these since investors are generally more concerned with ongoing operating metrics, and it's preferable to have a special charge impact a single quarter/year rather than several. And honestly, a special charge of $60 million for accelerated depreciation of over 60 aircraft is bupkis. It basically implies their ownership cost of each aircraft works out to about $500K/year of depreciation and that is a mere pittance compared to the ownership costs of A320s or 738s which came off the line around when DL inducted all those secondhand MD-90s. They were cheap and offered unit costs within a few percent of the in-production narrowbodies from Airbus & Boeing.


Whether or not they were a good deal back in the day isn't the point. Companies won't take more of a charge than they have to. And if it's bupkis, why did it earn its own line on the report? Oh, that's right, it's material, not bupkis, and it needs to be called out as a charge. I don't doubt that 2022 is now the official plan financially. The whole point has been that the official plan for the MD-90s hasn't been followed. I wouldn't expect it to be followed now.

MIflyer12 wrote:
Companies accelerate depreciation all the time. DL has tons of free cash flow right now - even after the planned receipt of 80 new mainline aircraft this year. They're quickly getting rid of something old to get something better. We can applaud that whether we are flying enthusiasts or shareholders.


I'll let you go ahead and applaud something that is a negative from a financial planning standpoint. ;)

No need to preempt me on a point only you want to make in this thread.
 
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dennypayne
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:55 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
It has been done in ATL for two years now. I don't see that as a reason to keep the 717 after the MD88/90 are gone. We need the shop space for more profitable engines(GTF). The 717 is going to be a real orphan once the other T tails are gone. The airframe parts supply will get real thin. It's hard to do overhauls on the airframe with out sheetmetal parts.


They're already burnt the money into making a shop for the BR, and they apparently have made the space for the GTF where the JT8 was.

The JT8 space is WAY too small for all the GTF work that is planned. They are there right now, but it is only a start to the shop. The money that was burned to set up the BR shop is ancient history now compared to the cash flow the GTF is projected to bring. I would suspect the BR is not the only engine line that gets closed or moved to make room for the GTF. There is talk about moving one or two of the big motor shops (PW200/4000/CF6) out to the bay 5 hangar space.Time will tell were the shuffle will end up. The biggest problem with the BR shop is it brings in very little outside work. All the others in the building bring in $$$.


We got a tour of DL TechOps at the Airliners International convention last month - the BR715 shop is pretty small:

Image
https://flic.kr/p/2gx6drV

Whereas the converted space in the old hangar for the new shop is huge - mainly they needed the vertical clearance for the Trent 1000's, but there's a ton of space to the left of this picture that isn't really in use yet. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see the CF6 shop move out here.

Image
https://flic.kr/p/2gx6f5u

This picture is blurry, but as you can see it's labeled as the GTF shop but there's definitely still some JT8's there :tongue2:

Image
https://flic.kr/p/2gx6xTq
A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 AT72 B190
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CR2/7/9 D8S D9S D95 DHC2/3/7/8 D328 E110/120/135/140/145/170/175/190
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:56 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
A few questions/consderations:

When DL made the decision to acquire 2nd hand MD-90s in 2010/2011 timeframe, did they seriously consider any new order narrowbodies?
The big 739 order was announced in August 2011 with deliveries starting in late 2013.
The 717 announcement came in July 2012
The DC-9s were on the way out, as they had just retired the remainder of the 30/40s and the 50's were only going to stay other 2 years.
The A321 order came later.

From my perspective, that despite what we are looking at in hindsight they MD-90s were a necessary stop-gap since DL had too many short-medium term fleet replacement priorities. Including the 744s, all the money needed for cabin refurbishments, the need to replace older 757, A320, and now MD-88s.
The MD-90s helped to space out some of the fleet replacement simply because DL (and NW) had nearly a decade of no new narrowbodies and had a glut of aircraft coming due for replacement at the same time.

In that timeframe, new order narrowbody aircraft were more expensive. It was a business case.

The A329NEO had just been launched in December 2020, so an astute airline planning board would know new aircraft resale values drop fast after 20% of the fleet is in service. DL used that on the 739ER and 717 orders.

At the time DL's mantra was debt reduction, so that hurt the business case for new. Also, DL's willingness to buy used orphan fleets really helps their negotiating position.
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ScottB
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:05 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Whether or not they were a good deal back in the day isn't the point. Companies won't take more of a charge than they have to. And if it's bupkis, why did it earn its own line on the report? Oh, that's right, it's material, not bupkis, and it needs to be called out as a charge. I don't doubt that 2022 is now the official plan financially. The whole point has been that the official plan for the MD-90s hasn't been followed. I wouldn't expect it to be followed now.


In the grand scheme of things, it really is bupkis. It's in the same order of magnitude as other unplanned events like a power outage at the ATL airport, the res system going down, or a bad winter storm. You call it out as a one-time charge anyway to make the operational numbers look better since it's pretty common to make statements like "excluding the impact of a one-time charge related to accelerated depreciation..." LUV did exactly the same thing when they decided to accelerate retirement of the 737-300 fleet before inducting the 737-MAX8.

Even with moving up the planned retirement by two years, Delta still got a screaming deal: ~10 years of service from aircraft with then-current-generation economics, acquired for what was likely 10-20% of the cost of then-current-generation aircraft.
 
PennPal
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:07 pm

Will miss the MD-88's MD-90's and 717's dearly. The opportunity to fly on one of those, in addition to a 757, is one of the reasons I fly Delta exclusively.
 
indcwby
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:29 pm

AlexBrewster03 wrote:
Thank god. I hope the 717 follows soon after.


Really? I love flying on the 717. She's a smooth ride and lovely aircraft. She's got some life in them still.
A319, A320, A330, A340, B717, B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, CRJ7, DC10, MD88, MD11, E145, E175
"Always remember that you fly an airplane with your head, not your hands."
 
Northwest1988
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:55 pm

We know DL is currently the only MD-90 operator in the world. But who was the last one to fly the -90 before DL became the sole operator?
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:00 pm

acjbbj wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
The variants of 737s, 220s, 320s, 757s etc make no difference in a staffing perspective, as it’s a common type rating. A single-type rating small fleet of MD90s does however create cost and reliability inefficiencies.

Is the Original really on the same type rating as the Classic, NG, or Max ratings?


I'm talking about at Delta. The 737-700/800/900, A220-100/300, A319/20/21, MD88/90, 757-200/300, A330-200/300/900 are all the same aircraft from a staffing and training viewpoint.
Last edited by Cactusjuba on Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:14 pm

Northwest1988 wrote:
We know DL is currently the only MD-90 operator in the world. But who was the last one to fly the -90 before DL became the sole operator?

Going through Wikipedia, there just were 4 opperators. Considering EIS in 1995, bad that three ended early.

Eva Air ceased ops in 2016
Saudia ceased ops in 2013
JAL ceased ops in 2013


DL was the 1995 launch operator and it looks like at about 27 years in, the type is done.

All data from the MD-90 link in Wikipedia and then looking at each opperators former fleet.

Lightsaber
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:18 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:

Are they still bringing the BR715 in house as well? I'm sure that will be an additional consideration on how long the 717 last.

It has been done in ATL for two years now. I don't see that as a reason to keep the 717 after the MD88/90 are gone. We need the shop space for more profitable engines(GTF). The 717 is going to be a real orphan once the other T tails are gone. The airframe parts supply will get real thin. It's hard to do overhauls on the airframe with out sheetmetal parts.


DAL with no T-tails is soooo wrong.

We could maybe ask them to buy a bunch of [highly discounted I would speculate] ARJ-21/700s, just for the sake of "DC-9 looks", or else see if they could snatch a few of the last remaining DC-9 flying around in Africa.....
I am sure DL tech would be able to get them up to tip top shape -AND with 717 interiors- in no time! :bouncy:

T-tails are fundamentally less efficient than conventional tails, and tail mounted engines are much less efficient than wing mounted engines. That is why no new airliners are T-tails, and never will be again.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
acjbbj
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:31 pm

SEPilot wrote:
T-tails are fundamentally less efficient than conventional tails, and tail mounted engines are much less efficient than wing mounted engines. That is why no new airliners are T-tails, and never will be again.

And they're dangerously prone to deep stalls. Man, aviation is getting more and more boring.

But maybe the last MD-90 built could be put on display? While all of the others are going to scrap.
Last edited by acjbbj on Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:34 pm

acjbbj wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
T-tails are fundamentally less efficient than conventional tails, and tail mounted engines are much less efficient than wing mounted engines. That is why no new airliners are T-tails, and never will be again.

And they're dangerously prone to deep stalls.
Man, aviation is getting more and more boring.


I know right! Those MD-90 pylon-flaps are so cool!

https://youtu.be/vsRxWspTTJI
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
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American 767
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:39 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:

Eva Air ceased ops in 2016
Saudia ceased ops in 2013
JAL ceased ops in 2013

Lightsaber


Didn't Reno Air also fly the MD-90? They ended up flying at AA but not for long, they were quickly disposed of as the MD-87s were. I know SAS flew them too.

Are Delta's remaining MD-90s now based out of ATL or most still fly out of MSP? I know the -88s are now all based out of ATL. Just curious to know where it would be possible to catch a ride on one before they are gone. I have flown on the -88 with Delta once in my whole life, from LGA to FLL back in 2011, but never on the -90.
Ben Soriano
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:46 pm

acjbbj wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
T-tails are fundamentally less efficient than conventional tails, and tail mounted engines are much less efficient than wing mounted engines. That is why no new airliners are T-tails, and never will be again.

And they're dangerously prone to deep stalls. Man, aviation is getting more and more boring.

But maybe the last MD-90 built could be put on display? While all of the others are going to scrap.


Deep stalls in T-tails is well understood and hasn’t been a factor in donkey’s years. T-tails fundamentally have different strengths and weaknesses, just as wing-mounted designs have different strengths and weaknesses. You won’t see another tail-mounted design in airliners, just as you won’t see a wing-mounted design in business jets, Honda proving the rule. Designers choose compromises based on user requirements, or more accurately, on marketing’s guess of user requirements.

Airplanes aren’t designed to entertain or enthrall A.netters; they’re machines to do work.

GF
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:02 pm

American 767 wrote:
Are Delta's remaining MD-90s now based out of ATL or most still fly out of MSP? I know the -88s are now all based out of ATL. Just curious to know where it would be possible to catch a ride on one before they are gone. I have flown on the -88 with Delta once in my whole life, from LGA to FLL back in 2011, but never on the -90.

All DL MD-90 flying is now only from ATL.
As of mid-June, they pulled the remaining MD-90 flying out of MSP & DTW and have concentrated the fleet to doing out-and-backs from ATL only.
MD-90s are now being used in a very similar manner to the MD-88s, and I think the farthest west they now is ELP
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:12 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:
We know DL is currently the only MD-90 operator in the world. But who was the last one to fly the -90 before DL became the sole operator?

Going through Wikipedia, there just were 4 opperators. Considering EIS in 1995, bad that three ended early.

Eva Air ceased ops in 2016
Saudia ceased ops in 2013
JAL ceased ops in 2013


DL was the 1995 launch operator and it looks like at about 27 years in, the type is done.

All data from the MD-90 link in Wikipedia and then looking at each opperators former fleet.

Lightsaber


At least the DL purchases helped keep these in service longer than the Pro Air fleet.
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Dalmd88
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:31 pm

dennypayne wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
777Mech wrote:

They're already burnt the money into making a shop for the BR, and they apparently have made the space for the GTF where the JT8 was.

The JT8 space is WAY too small for all the GTF work that is planned. They are there right now, but it is only a start to the shop. The money that was burned to set up the BR shop is ancient history now compared to the cash flow the GTF is projected to bring. I would suspect the BR is not the only engine line that gets closed or moved to make room for the GTF. There is talk about moving one or two of the big motor shops (PW200/4000/CF6) out to the bay 5 hangar space.Time will tell were the shuffle will end up. The biggest problem with the BR shop is it brings in very little outside work. All the others in the building bring in $$$.


We got a tour of DL TechOps at the Airliners International convention last month - the BR715 shop is pretty small:

Image
https://flic.kr/p/2gx6drV

Whereas the converted space in the old hangar for the new shop is huge - mainly they needed the vertical clearance for the Trent 1000's, but there's a ton of space to the left of this picture that isn't really in use yet. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see the CF6 shop move out here.

Image
https://flic.kr/p/2gx6f5u

This picture is blurry, but as you can see it's labeled as the GTF shop but there's definitely still some JT8's there :tongue2:

Image
https://flic.kr/p/2gx6xTq

The empty space in the new Rolls Trent shop was intended to be shop space for Life Limited Parts ( internal engine parts like hubs and stuff). That plan I think has been scrapped. The Trent work will now take up the entire TOC1 space. The high bay areas will be build bays and all of the mod work that is now in half of the high bays will shift to the west under the mezzanine that was to be LLP. The number of Trents in work will double from the existing plan.

Yes the BR space is small but remember that is really just one big room in the engine assy area. The lines from shop to shop have been moved many times. Like I said the GTF is currently going to start in the old JT8 space. That space does have some hospital work for the JT8 and will possibly until the fleet sunsets in 2020. As for how much GTF work is coming, I would expect in ten years it could be 50% of the old engine shop floor space. The number of visits they are talking about are enormous. That space back there could be GTF, CFM and CF34 only. The three big motors could be in TOC2 and the BR gone. They could also move something off site. There have been rumors about something moving across I75 to warehouse space we control over near the Fed Ex truck building.
 
426Shadow
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:46 pm

Sad news from a Spotters perspective, passenger experience be damned.
Do it on three, One.....THREEEEEEE! Just got the nuts hangin out.
 
oosnowrat
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:00 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
AlexBrewster03 wrote:
Thank god. I hope the 717 follows soon after.


What's wrong with DL 717s? Would you rather be on a SkyWest CR9?


I would, especially an Atmosphere CR9, but I'm a little biased.
 
PC12Fan
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:28 am

acjbbj wrote:
Sad... the MD-90 won't even live for 30 years


Well, it might have a longer tenure than the Airbus flagship which entered service in late 2007. Given the economic reasons that some airlines are abandoning ship with this big bird, it may not even make it that long.

We shall see.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
L1011
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:38 am

It wasn't that long ago that Delta bought up nearly all the MD-90s in the world and completely refurbished them. That seems like such a waste if they are already planning to retire them.
Fly Eastern's Golden Falcon DC-7B
 
Northwest1988
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:44 am

L1011 wrote:
It wasn't that long ago that Delta bought up nearly all the MD-90s in the world and completely refurbished them. That seems like such a waste if they are already planning to retire them.


It was even more recent that we were on the verge of a cockpit update to the MD-88. They said had the update gone ahead it would have given another 10 years to the MD-88. Now they will be gone next year. Sad... To think what might have been!
 
Newark727
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:52 am

dennypayne wrote:

We got a tour of DL TechOps at the Airliners International convention last month - the BR715 shop is pretty small:

Image
https://flic.kr/p/2gx6drV

Whereas the converted space in the old hangar for the new shop is huge - mainly they needed the vertical clearance for the Trent 1000's, but there's a ton of space to the left of this picture that isn't really in use yet. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see the CF6 shop move out here.

Image
https://flic.kr/p/2gx6f5u

This picture is blurry, but as you can see it's labeled as the GTF shop but there's definitely still some JT8's there :tongue2:

Image
https://flic.kr/p/2gx6xTq


Main topic aside, it's interesting to see what an engine overhaul shop looks like inside. Thanks for posting these.
 
WN732
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:09 am

Northwest1988 wrote:
L1011 wrote:
It wasn't that long ago that Delta bought up nearly all the MD-90s in the world and completely refurbished them. That seems like such a waste if they are already planning to retire them.


It was even more recent that we were on the verge of a cockpit update to the MD-88. They said had the update gone ahead it would have given another 10 years to the MD-88. Now they will be gone next year. Sad... To think what might have been!


And there was also supposed to be an upgrade to make it more aerodynamic by making small changes to the wings. Not sure if that was the 80 or 90 specifically but I do recall seeing that on here. But the idea was later dropped.

Edit: I found the old thread. It was called the Super98 Mod
viewtopic.php?t=580155
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:20 am

A couple thoughts:

My 717 prediction was 2026-27 AT THE EARLIEST. I personally think it'll go longer. Nothing being built now will take short cycles like the DC9/717 structure. It's the perfect airplane imho for the dense eastern US traffic feeding ATL, DTW, MSP, and NYC. And I expect Delta to literally wear them out feeding those markets. 2030 retirement will mean the basic DC9 structure flew in revenue airline service for 65 years!!!

Surely being in bed with RR on the big engines will provide some ancillary benefit for managing the small engines too?

Didn't Delta sign a deal with PW similar to the RR deal, making them a shop that PW funnels engines to for overhaul, but for GTFs? Surely they wouldnt have signed that deal without a plan for adequate floor space to overhaul both the big and the small GTFs would they? And we know that it'll be a lot of work, this isn't CFM reliability after all!

Aren't many airframe structural components on 88s and 90s compatible with the 717? If so, won't a lot of those parts be salvaged from 88s and 90s as they are scrapped and saved for the 717s?
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:45 am

American 767 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:

Eva Air ceased ops in 2016
Saudia ceased ops in 2013
JAL ceased ops in 2013

Lightsaber


Didn't Reno Air also fly the MD-90? They ended up flying at AA but not for long, they were quickly disposed of as the MD-87s were. I know SAS flew them too.

Are Delta's remaining MD-90s now based out of ATL or most still fly out of MSP? I know the -88s are now all based out of ATL. Just curious to know where it would be possible to catch a ride on one before they are gone. I have flown on the -88 with Delta once in my whole life, from LGA to FLL back in 2011, but never on the -90.


Yes, Reno Air flew the MD-90. AA flew them after the merger.

AS had the MD-90 on order but cancelled it.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:55 am

SteelChair wrote:
A couple thoughts:

My 717 prediction was 2026-27 AT THE EARLIEST. I personally think it'll go longer. Nothing being built now will take short cycles like the DC9/717 structure. It's the perfect airplane imho for the dense eastern US traffic feeding ATL, DTW, MSP, and NYC. And I expect Delta to literally wear them out feeding those markets. 2030 retirement will mean the basic DC9 structure flew in revenue airline service for 65 years!!!

Surely being in bed with RR on the big engines will provide some ancillary benefit for managing the small engines too?

Didn't Delta sign a deal with PW similar to the RR deal, making them a shop that PW funnels engines to for overhaul, but for GTFs? Surely they wouldnt have signed that deal without a plan for adequate floor space to overhaul both the big and the small GTFs would they? And we know that it'll be a lot of work, this isn't CFM reliability after all!

Aren't many airframe structural components on 88s and 90s compatible with the 717? If so, won't a lot of those parts be salvaged from 88s and 90s as they are scrapped and saved for the 717s?

Yes the 717 does share pretty much all the structure with the DC9/MD80/90. The problem is once you use a structural part, that's it. I worked structures for years. You can't take a frame or floor beam from a retired aircraft and install it on another. Everything is match drilled. The holes from one airplane don't line up with the holes on any other airplane. You can only replace a structural part with a brand new part. Either you make it or buy it. Stringers are real easy to make from raw stock. Frames and floor supports are very custom and pretty much have to be made with the manufacturer tooling. There are not a lot of these parts sitting around in warehouses. While they are actually cheap to make if you have the tooling, those that have the tooling really don't want to gear up to just make a few frames or floor supports. The lead times are crazy near the end of life. I remember on 727 belly skin we got a quote from Boeing of 180 days. That makes a 30 day heavy check visit real hard to complete on time.

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