afcjets
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CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:27 pm

The renovation of DL's side of the original concourse A in CLT is complete and construction is underway for the second phase of A North. DL is already using A North at least for late night arrivals since they have a lot of RON aircraft and they plan to open a SkyClub too. CLT-LGA now has eight daily DL Connection flights and two of the four CLT-JFK flights are now DL mainline with 717s.

Who would be more likely to launch CLT-AMS, AA or DL? AA would likely launch it in response to DL if they tried it so IMO it seems more likely you would have two or zero flights on that route than one if DL started it, and I actually think they might before AA.

Also, if SkyTeam launched it, would KL be more likely than DL?
Last edited by afcjets on Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
MAH4546
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:28 pm

Delta is not launching CLT-AMS.
a.
 
superjeff
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:37 pm

I think MAH4546 is correct. Delta would rather move whatever AMS traffic there is from CLT through either ATL or JFK; I don't think there is enough O&D traffic from CLT to make such a flight viable for them. AA has plenty of feed, but they have enough problems filling planes to AMS from PHL, and their DFW service is seasonal lonely (although it appears to be doing okay). It is just as easy to run east coast traffic through PHL for American, and use DFW for the West, or the LHR hub with JV partner BA for about anything else.
 
afcjets
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:40 pm

If launched by SkyTeam, would it depart from A and arrive D and be towed back to A? Or would it both depart and arrive from D? How feasible would it be to process customs under an A gate for only one flight, especially if it were only seasonal? CLT already has plans to convert some C gates to international. The first customs were actually at C2 and C4 and possibly C6 as those were PI and US first 767 and international gates, but that changed when D opened a second level in 1990 with four international gates (later expanded in 2003 to what it is today)
Last edited by afcjets on Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
afcjets
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:43 pm

superjeff wrote:
I think MAH4546 is correct. Delta would rather move whatever AMS traffic there is from CLT through either ATL or JFK; I don't think there is enough O&D traffic from CLT to make such a flight viable for them. AA has plenty of feed, but they have enough problems filling planes to AMS from PHL, and their DFW service is seasonal lonely (although it appears to be doing okay). It is just as easy to run east coast traffic through PHL for American, and use DFW for the West, or the LHR hub with JV partner BA for about anything else.


AMS is a better connecting hub than LHR or MUC though, and I think it would see more connecting than local traffic.
 
johns624
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:43 pm

Listen to the other posters and no "what ifs" need be answered.
 
USAirALB
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:43 pm

Neither AA or DL are launching CLT-AMS, IMHO.

In the L-US network, PHL-AMS was always the lowest performing year-round TATL route IIRC, and the flight was downguaged from a 762 to a 752 several times. US and now AA could have launched CLT-AMS several times if they had wanted to (especially when they launched LIS/BCN/BRU from CLT immediately after the merger announcement).

I fail to see what CLT-AMS brings to the table. L-AA did not even have a presence in the market before the merger, and PHL-AMS together with the seasonal DFW-AMS seems to be enough to handle the AMS market.
afcjets wrote:
they plan to open a SkyClub too. ?

Is this confirmed?
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afcjets
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:47 pm

johns624 wrote:
Listen to the other posters and no "what ifs" need be answered.


By all means let's close this topic since you have answered the question.
 
afcjets
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:52 pm

USAirALB wrote:
afcjets wrote:
they plan to open a SkyClub too. ?

Is this confirmed?


I thought I read that before and I know another a.netter did too, but I can't find anything. It seems like they would with the amount of flights they now have but there likely isn't any room until the next phase of A North is complete.
 
johns624
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:08 pm

afcjets wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
afcjets wrote:
they plan to open a SkyClub too. ?

Is this confirmed?


I thought I read that before and I know another a.netter did too, but I can't find anything. It seems like they would with the amount of flights they now have but there likely isn't any room until the next phase of A North is complete.
That's a long answer when you could've just said "No".
 
GSP psgr
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:21 pm

I would have to think that CLT is far, far behind Austin and Nashville when it comes to landing a Delta transatlantic flight. I think I'd probably add Fort Lauderdale, St. Louis, and San Jose to that list too.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:38 pm

Charlotte is hardly heard of in Amsterdam, it's as good as unknown. Demand is almost zero. For the little demand there is, there are plenty of one-stop options.

Besides, Amsterdam has a slot shortage so they can't just add new destinations. Slots at Amsterdam are too valuable to waste on destinations that don't make sense, like Charlotte.
 
afcjets
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:25 pm

johns624 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
Is this confirmed?
I thought I read that before and I know another a.netter did too, but I can't find anything. It seems like they would with the amount of flights they now have but there likely isn't any room until the next phase of A North is complete.
That's a long answer when you could've just said "No".
Unlike your suggestion, it was the correct answer, however DL CLT management is confirming that a SkyClub is in the A North master plan.
 
flyfresno
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:33 pm

Wouldn't we see RDU-AMS before CLT-AMS?
 
afcjets
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:43 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Besides, Amsterdam has a slot shortage so they can't just add new destinations. Slots at Amsterdam are too valuable to waste on destinations that don't make sense, like Charlotte.


"Ultimately Lelystad is the solution the industry keeps coming back to. Being a general aviation airport, Lelystad has no capacity constraints. It boasts a 2700m x 45m runway capable of handling a number of medium haul aircraft types and is under one hour from Schiphol via the Netherlands’ extensive rail network. Until Lelystad opens (next year), even a small revision in the maximum movement limit at Schiphol back to the original 510,000 figure would allow the airport to match growth of Frankfurt Airport and keep Schiphol competitive."

https://blueswandaily.com/amsterdam-cap ... mpetitors/
 
afcjets
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:47 pm

flyfresno wrote:
Wouldn't we see RDU-AMS before CLT-AMS?


DL already connects RDU with a SkyTeam hub in Europe with CDG.
 
Boof02671
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:21 pm

AA is taking all the gates on the old part if A being renovated. And yes it would arrive at D and be towed or taxied to A.

But neither airline will be starting service from CLT to AMS.
 
johns624
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:52 pm

afcjets wrote:
however DL CLT management is confirming that a SkyClub is in the A North master plan.
Link?
 
afcjets
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:02 am

Boof02671 wrote:
AA is taking all the gates on the old part if A being renovated. And yes it would arrive at D and be towed or taxied to A.


After A North opened, the Delta side of the original A side closed for renovations and DL temporarily moved to the adjacent gates on the other side of the concourse that was vacated by the airlines that moved to A North. DL moved back a month or so ago when that side was finished and now the other side is closed and being renovated for AA. DL will not move to A North until one or both of the new piers of A North have been completed which is several years off and then AA will have all of the original A concourse.
 
BenflysDTW
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:28 am

DL would rather add RDU-AMS. If DL were to start CLT-AMS, it would be like AA starting DTW-LHR with their own metal. CLT is the strongest legacy hub. In terms of market share, as we all already know that AA has about 85-90% of the market at CLT. Which makes it make even less sense.
 
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:52 am

DL/KL could not sustain EWR-AMS...a flight out of a competitor’s huge hub and a far larger market. They won’t be trying CLT-AMS anytime soon.

You will notice a pattern in the secondary US cities that DL opts to connect to Europe. They are A) not fortress hubs for a competitor, and B) have minimal transatlantic competition period. CLT fails on both accounts. It is a AA fortress hub well connected to Europe with plenty of connection opportunities via Oneworld euro hubs for Oneworld loyalist (who dominate the CLT FF market for obvious reasons).
 
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:01 am

It would yield the same results as when DL took over for AF on PHl-CDG (a much larger market). Ultimately the route did not work out.


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afcjets
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:12 am

USAirALB wrote:
afcjets wrote:
they plan to open a SkyClub too. ?

Is this confirmed?


Also, Delta opened a huge SkyClub (7500sf) this year in PHX. Delta has 27 flights from PHX (19 mainline plus 8 DL Connection) and 35 from CLT (22 mainline plus 13 DL Connection)
 
USAirALB
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:16 am

At this point in time the only additional TATL service CLT will be getting IMO will be an additional LHR (the slot that AA owns that is currently used by AY is rumored to be for an additional LHR-CLT service) and then maybe more flights to Germany with an A321XLR as was mentioned by either Isom or Raja.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:30 am

CLT-MUC on LH exists because of BMW not connections (other than those to GSP).

CLT-AMS is a nonstarter.
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afcjets
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:31 am

USAirALB wrote:
At this point in time the only additional TATL service CLT will be getting IMO will be an additional LHR (the slot that AA owns that is currently used by AY is rumored to be for an additional LHR-CLT service) and then maybe more flights to Germany with an A321XLR as was mentioned by either Isom or Raja.


You work there, right? Why are C gates going to add customs? Are there not enough D gates to handle current international arrivals? Or do you think AA will add more Caribbean flights? AFAIK Transpacific is not even an option until the next parallel runway opens with 12,000 feet.
 
afcjets
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:46 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
CLT-MUC on LH exists because of BMW not connections (other than those to GSP).

When LH first started flying to CLT almost 20 years ago before MUC was a hub with CLT-FRA, they had a lot of connecting traffic to cities throughout Germany (not just MUC), ZRH, and a ton of BOM but the flight was mainly for the local market and other secondary markets in the SE. Their code share with US was key so you had connections on both ends.
 
USAirALB
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:55 am

afcjets wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
At this point in time the only additional TATL service CLT will be getting IMO will be an additional LHR (the slot that AA owns that is currently used by AY is rumored to be for an additional LHR-CLT service) and then maybe more flights to Germany with an A321XLR as was mentioned by either Isom or Raja.


You work there, right? Why are C gates going to add customs? Are there not enough D gates to handle current international arrivals? Or do you think AA will add more Caribbean flights? AFAIK Transpacific is not even an option until the next parallel runway opens with 12,000 feet.


afcjets wrote:
When LH first started flying to CLT almost 20 years ago before MUC was a hub with CLT-FRA, they had a lot of connecting traffic to cities throughout Germany (not just MUC), ZRH, and a ton of BOM but the flight was mainly for the local market and other secondary markets in the SE. Their code share with US was key so you had connections on both ends.

I don't work for AA or CLT (I don't even work in a field closely related to aviation).

LH only flew to CLT in the 1990s to serve as a tech stop for their IAH-FRA service.

But to answer your questions, currently the D concourse is maxed out in terms of international arrivals. When an A330 is parked at the low D gates the corresponding gates on either side are both blocked, hence why you see A330 Intl arrivals unloaded at D and then quickly towed over to the B gates for departure. The facility was never designed to handle the traffic it currently sees. When D was extended in the early 2000s, US only flew CLT-LGW/FRA and LH had not yet returned. Caribbean destinations were basically limited at that point to CUN/MBJ, so there was no need for a large FIS. I don't know when the C gates will be converted into swing gates, but probably not until the rest of the terminal renovations are complete.

The runway won't be getting extended to 12,000 ft. The FAA said that such a length is not necessary for the traffic CLT sees and I think have limited the length to 10,000ft.
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:55 am

afcjets wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
At this point in time the only additional TATL service CLT will be getting IMO will be an additional LHR (the slot that AA owns that is currently used by AY is rumored to be for an additional LHR-CLT service) and then maybe more flights to Germany with an A321XLR as was mentioned by either Isom or Raja.


You work there, right? Why are C gates going to add customs? Are there not enough D gates to handle current international arrivals? Or do you think AA will add more Caribbean flights? AFAIK Transpacific is not even an option until the next parallel runway opens with 12,000 feet.

It’s ok, they’ve piloted a project at PHL to effectively bus the international arrivals to the gate, it’s faster than deplaning via jetbridge so capacity is only limited by the number of remote widebody stands.

In all seriousness though, I doubt DL will enter CLT with a flight to AMS or CDG, if anything, they would be more likely to add LHR if they thought they could siphon off some of the banking traffic that AAL relies on. I put it in the low single digit probabilities that this would occur, simply too many other opportunities out there.
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jfk777
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:11 am

Delta has enough opportunities for CDG and AMS flights from many US gateways, CLT is not on their radar for such a flight. There are many cities similar in size to Charlotte begging for a 767 to Amsterdam with no current flights to Europe. Kansas City and St. Louis are two such cities. Las Vegas.
 
Ishrion
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:16 am

jfk777 wrote:
Delta has enough opportunities for CDG and AMS flights from many US gateways, CLT is not on their radar for such a flight. There are many cities similar in size to Charlotte begging for a 767 to Amsterdam with no current flights to Europe. Kansas City and St. Louis are two such cities. Las Vegas.


"No current flights to Europe"? MCI has KEF, if you want to count that.

LAS... has LHR, LGW, MAN, ORY, DUS, FRA, ZRH, and even TLV. Oh yeah, and KLM does AMS-LAS already.
 
MGC1191
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:22 am

afcjets wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
At this point in time the only additional TATL service CLT will be getting IMO will be an additional LHR (the slot that AA owns that is currently used by AY is rumored to be for an additional LHR-CLT service) and then maybe more flights to Germany with an A321XLR as was mentioned by either Isom or Raja.


You work there, right? Why are C gates going to add customs? Are there not enough D gates to handle current international arrivals? Or do you think AA will add more Caribbean flights? AFAIK Transpacific is not even an option until the next parallel runway opens with 12,000 feet.



I can help.

Due to airport congestion Concourse D is used by a lot of domestic flights as well. AA would like to keep D clear for international flights only. Once renovations are done AA is taking the gates DL dumped at A, and once the new section of A opens, Delta will move and AA will take the entirety of old A. As for adding customs for some of C gates, a fair bit of international flights here are to the islands narrow body Airbus and Boeing planes. Having gates with customs capability in the "armpit" of concourse C allows a few of the narrow body flights to stay away from D, leaving that for the wide bodies.

Currently in the afternoon rush Frankfurt, Munich, and Dublin arrive first before the massive wave of TATL flights. Those flights (sometimes Dublin) park at D and then are towed over to B gates to make room for the rest of the arrivals (London, Rome, Madrid, Paris, etc... ).

Simply put AA wants D for only international ops and mainly wide bodies.
 
Ishrion
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:24 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Charlotte is hardly heard of in Amsterdam, it's as good as unknown. Demand is almost zero. For the little demand there is, there are plenty of one-stop options.

Besides, Amsterdam has a slot shortage so they can't just add new destinations. Slots at Amsterdam are too valuable to waste on destinations that don't make sense, like Charlotte.


But... people in Charlotte AND the United States know where and what Amsterdam is, right?

So... do you think people in Philadelphia have heard of Bologna? Dubrovnik? Heck, do some people even know what/where Croatia is? It's true, some people have definitely heard of Dubrovnik, at least. (GoT).

Do you think people in Bologna or Dubrovnik have heard of Philadelphia? Maybe, maybe not.

It's the fact that connections play a strong role in international flights, not just pure demand from a single city. AA's planning on growing CLT significantly over the next few years. Wouldn't be surprised if tourists go to Amsterdam over the summer.
 
afcjets
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:14 pm

USAirALB wrote:
afcjets wrote:
When LH first started flying to CLT almost 20 years ago before MUC was a hub with CLT-FRA, they had a lot of connecting traffic to cities throughout Germany (not just MUC), ZRH, and a ton of BOM but the flight was mainly for the local market and other secondary markets in the SE. Their code share with US was key so you had connections on both ends.

I don't work for AA or CLT (I don't even work in a field closely related to aviation).

LH only flew to CLT in the 1990s to serve as a tech stop for their IAH-FRA service.



LH did not only add CLT-FRA for a tech stop for IAH-FRA. In fact, the tech stop in CLT is a big reason why LH eventually cancelled the flight, combined with the economics of the the 747-200 Combi. The flight was only three days per week from CLT but 6-7 from IAH, where the other days it stopped in DFW (but eventually changed to ATL IIRC).

LH union contracts would not allow FRA-CLT-IAH and IAH-CLT-FRA to have the same crew on the thru flights because the stop in CLT made it barely exceed their daily time limit. So when they added CLT and split the almost daily IAH flight's stopover between CLT and DFW, they incurred a ton of unnecessary hotel costs. The CLT flight was SuWeFr Only (they tweaked the days a bit over the two years). So here was the trip for both the pilots and FAs:

SU: FRA-CLT
SU Hyatt Southpark
MO Hyatt Southpark
TU Hyatt Southpark
WE CLT-IAH-CLT
WE Hyatt Southpark
TH Hyatt Southpark
FR CLT-FRA

5 hotel nights for a crew of at least 12. That is 60 hotel room nights for one roundtrip. Even if they had to layover in DFW (and DFW could have been less circuitous enough to where they didn't have to) when it stopped there daily, it would have been only two nighs in DFW instead of up to five in CLT. And while LH obviously negotiated a contract rate, they put their FAs in a brand new 4.5 star non-airport hotel per their union contract.
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:38 pm

afcjets wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Besides, Amsterdam has a slot shortage so they can't just add new destinations. Slots at Amsterdam are too valuable to waste on destinations that don't make sense, like Charlotte.


"Ultimately Lelystad is the solution the industry keeps coming back to. Being a general aviation airport, Lelystad has no capacity constraints. It boasts a 2700m x 45m runway capable of handling a number of medium haul aircraft types and is under one hour from Schiphol via the Netherlands’ extensive rail network. Until Lelystad opens (next year), even a small revision in the maximum movement limit at Schiphol back to the original 510,000 figure would allow the airport to match growth of Frankfurt Airport and keep Schiphol competitive."

https://blueswandaily.com/amsterdam-cap ... mpetitors/


The LEY opening has been delayed until after 2020, and you shouldn't believe that many airlines at AMS will suddenly happily move there when it does open. Also the maximum number of movements per year at AMS isn't necessarily a solution. AMS is literally full each day between aprox 0900-1400. And with the exception of 2-3 DL flights, that's when the US3 schedule all their flights, plus most KLM USA flights as well. So squeezing in a CLT flight at a favorable time might well be impossible.

Also I agree with Patrick that nobody in the Netherlands knows Charlotte, let alone wants to travel there. (Exceptions are there of course, but no traveling masses). As for feed from the US to Europe, maybe, but I doubt that can sustain a year-round schedule.

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LAXdude1023
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:48 pm

afcjets wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
CLT-MUC on LH exists because of BMW not connections (other than those to GSP).

When LH first started flying to CLT almost 20 years ago before MUC was a hub with CLT-FRA, they had a lot of connecting traffic to cities throughout Germany (not just MUC), ZRH, and a ton of BOM but the flight was mainly for the local market and other secondary markets in the SE. Their code share with US was key so you had connections on both ends.


Yes, but this isnt 20 years ago. LH has no relationship with a hub carrier in CLT and CLT is better served to Europe. In this day in age, its all about BMW on that route.
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afcjets
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:32 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Yes, but this isnt 20 years ago. LH has no relationship with a hub carrier in CLT and CLT is better served to Europe. In this day in age, its all about BMW on that route.

It was actually more like 30 years ago (27 to 29) when LH flew CLT-FRA and while that is true during peak season, it's the same level during off-peak except LH now flies daily instead of three days per week and US flew CLT-FRA and CLT- LHR just like today (767 vs A330). As far as connecting opportunities, TW and PA both flew CLT-JFK which has been replaced by DL at JFK and PHL has about the same amount that TW had at JFK. Not to mention none of the top LH connections I mentioned back then are served nonstop today and the fact that Charlotte has almost tripled in size since then.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: CLT-AMS AA vs. DL/KL

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:34 pm

afcjets wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Yes, but this isnt 20 years ago. LH has no relationship with a hub carrier in CLT and CLT is better served to Europe. In this day in age, its all about BMW on that route.

It was actually more like 30 years ago (27 to 29) when LH flew CLT-FRA and while that is true during peak season, it's the same level during off-peak except LH now flies daily instead of three days per week and US flew CLT-FRA and CLT- LHR just like today (767 vs A330). As far as connecting opportunities, TW and PA both flew CLT-JFK which has been replaced by DL at JFK and PHL has about the same amount that TW had at JFK. Not to mention none of the top LH connections I mentioned back then are served nonstop today and the fact that Charlotte has almost tripled in size since then.


It may have tripled in size but if you look at the O&D in CLT vs. how much service it has, it is greatly over served. Every fortress hub is.
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos