gunnerman
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KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:43 pm

KLM has launched a campaign, which marks the airline’s 100th anniversary, for people to consider train travel for shorter distances and to replace face-to-face meetings with video calls.
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2019/jul/11/dutch-airline-klm-calls-for-people-to-fly-less-carbon-offsetting-scheme
 
CALMSP
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:02 pm

I mean, WTH is he thinking???? If he's so concerned about short distance travel, get rid of some of your planes that will then force people to take a train b/c there are no flights.
 
sseim
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:10 pm

That's ridiculous. That would be like Amazon telling people to stop shopping online.
 
a320fan
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:12 pm

Train travel is much more convenient up to a 3 hour trip maybe even 4. You go from city centre to city centre, the process is a lot more relaxed, no hassle with security, waiting around terminals, lining up to check in, security, board flights, waiting for any bags, transport into and from city centre. I've done a few month long backpacking trips around Europe and if the train can get me there within 4 hours I won't even consider a flight unless it's significantly cheaper (greater than 50%)
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300
 
WayexTDI
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:19 pm

a320fan wrote:
Train travel is much more convenient up to a 3 hour trip maybe even 4. You go from city centre to city centre, the process is a lot more relaxed, no hassle with security, waiting around terminals, lining up to check in, security, board flights, waiting for any bags, transport into and from city centre. I've done a few month long backpacking trips around Europe and if the train can get me there within 4 hours I won't even consider a flight unless it's significantly cheaper (greater than 50%)

As if most businesses were located in city centers...
 
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spinotter
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:28 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Train travel is much more convenient up to a 3 hour trip maybe even 4. You go from city centre to city centre, the process is a lot more relaxed, no hassle with security, waiting around terminals, lining up to check in, security, board flights, waiting for any bags, transport into and from city centre. I've done a few month long backpacking trips around Europe and if the train can get me there within 4 hours I won't even consider a flight unless it's significantly cheaper (greater than 50%)

As if most businesses were located in city centers...


In Europe this is more often the case. Listen people, either we are serious about the measures we adopt to lessen the harmful effects of travel, or we are not. I know it's a heartbreaking realization on a website like a.net, but human beings, do you want your descendants to live and prosper or not? If so, there are a lot of current habits which need to be changed, including LESS travel altogether - less airline travel, less train travel, less automobile travel, more bicycling and more walking - and for people to fashion their lives so that MUCH less travel is necessary.
Last edited by spinotter on Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:33 pm

spinotter wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Train travel is much more convenient up to a 3 hour trip maybe even 4. You go from city centre to city centre, the process is a lot more relaxed, no hassle with security, waiting around terminals, lining up to check in, security, board flights, waiting for any bags, transport into and from city centre. I've done a few month long backpacking trips around Europe and if the train can get me there within 4 hours I won't even consider a flight unless it's significantly cheaper (greater than 50%)

As if most businesses were located in city centers...


In Europe this is more often the case. Listen people, either we are serious about the measures we adopt to lessen the harmful effects of travel, or we are not. I know it's a heartbreaking realization on a website like a.net, but human beings, do you want your descendants to live and prosper or not? If so, there are a lot of current habits which need to be changed, including LESS travel altogether - less airline travel, less train travel, less automobile travel, more bicycling and mor walking - and for people to fashion their lives so that MUCH less travel is necessary.

In Europe, this is not often the case.

Businesses are usually on the outside of city centers; because the cost of offices within city centers have skyrocketed and because there was not enough space to put more offices.

Yes, measures need to be taken to lessen the effects of travel, I agree. Not sure people traveling by train vs planes will have that great of an impact; start putting trucks and merchandise on trains, this will have a much greater impact.
 
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spinotter
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:41 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
spinotter wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
As if most businesses were located in city centers...


In Europe this is more often the case. Listen people, either we are serious about the measures we adopt to lessen the harmful effects of travel, or we are not. I know it's a heartbreaking realization on a website like a.net, but human beings, do you want your descendants to live and prosper or not? If so, there are a lot of current habits which need to be changed, including LESS travel altogether - less airline travel, less train travel, less automobile travel, more bicycling and mor walking - and for people to fashion their lives so that MUCH less travel is necessary.

In Europe, this is not often the case.

Businesses are usually on the outside of city centers; because the cost of offices within city centers have skyrocketed and because there was not enough space to put more offices.

Yes, measures need to be taken to lessen the effects of travel, I agree. Not sure people traveling by train vs planes will have that great of an impact; start putting trucks and merchandise on trains, this will have a much greater impact.


And everyone and everything needs to be refashioned so that less CO2 emissions are produced. And even beyond that, so that people in general can all live a life where no automobile, train, or airplane travel is necessary. It can be done. Just as the production of these mountains of plastics and other human polluting agents can be controlled. It is a question whether we have the wisdom to choose that path. If not, then sayonara human race.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:42 pm

I agree that businesses should be doing a lot more video meetings. It's a huge waste of money to fly people around for a meeting that lasts a couple of hours. It's a very antiquated and inefficient way of doing business.
 
santi319
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:50 pm

Well they should start by calling out on their own partners, like DL.

Do we really need 24 crjs a day in a route, instead of bigger AC and less frequency just because Alan the business man with the small wiener will throw a fit if he doesnt have 1600 options a day to go back and forth in his meetings?

They should really start somewhere.
 
airzona11
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:51 pm

AMS is such a large connecting hub, is KLM advocating flying to AMS, then rather than flying to next destination, taking a train? Routing traffic that is today XXX-AMS-YYY, will simply change to XXX-CDG/FRA/BRS/ZRH/LHR-YYY. Not going to reduce flying, just going to reduce the routing via AMS. KLM will then fly any reduced AMS capacity to other destination. Very quickly the market will have absorbed and added back the reduced traffic.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:03 pm

airzona11 wrote:
AMS is such a large connecting hub, is KLM advocating flying to AMS, then rather than flying to next destination, taking a train? Routing traffic that is today XXX-AMS-YYY, will simply change to XXX-CDG/FRA/BRS/ZRH/LHR-YYY. Not going to reduce flying, just going to reduce the routing via AMS. KLM will then fly any reduced AMS capacity to other destination. Very quickly the market will have absorbed and added back the reduced traffic.

No. They are advocating stop flying short haul on these LCC’s that are kicking our butt. Only use planes for long haul trips on airlines like KLM. Or maybe I am just cynical.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:12 pm

People do not use video conferencing when making sales, because they cannot entertain customers as they would like. They must also travel to conferences, network and feel a connection with others. Air travel makes that happen. Sure, you can take the train from AMS to Brussels, but taking the train even as far as Lyon is time consuming and costly. Let’s not even talk about the US, where you either fly or drive to the point of exhaustion, unless you’re located between Boston and DC. That said, US air carriers have done achingly little to use biofuels, and they may need them sooner than they think.
 
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thekorean
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:47 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
AMS is such a large connecting hub, is KLM advocating flying to AMS, then rather than flying to next destination, taking a train? Routing traffic that is today XXX-AMS-YYY, will simply change to XXX-CDG/FRA/BRS/ZRH/LHR-YYY. Not going to reduce flying, just going to reduce the routing via AMS. KLM will then fly any reduced AMS capacity to other destination. Very quickly the market will have absorbed and added back the reduced traffic.

No. They are advocating stop flying short haul on these LCC’s that are kicking our butt. Only use planes for long haul trips on airlines like KLM. Or maybe I am just cynical.

I agree. How much does KLM really make on short haul O&D flights anyway.
 
gunnerman
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:07 am

I can't help thinking that if KL reduced its short-haul flying then BA, Raynair, easyJet and others will say "thank you" for the extra business.
 
ltbewr
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:27 am

If KLM were to reduce the demand for short-haul flying, then the slots, investment they have in aircraft and support services could be focused on medium to long-haul (2 hour +) flights where flying is far more practical in time and geography.
 
BuildingMyBento
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:28 am

Blame the RoK
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:45 am

Reverse psychology perhaps? Trying to convince Hollanders that KLM cares about the environment??
 
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AirKevin
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:54 am

spinotter wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Train travel is much more convenient up to a 3 hour trip maybe even 4. You go from city centre to city centre, the process is a lot more relaxed, no hassle with security, waiting around terminals, lining up to check in, security, board flights, waiting for any bags, transport into and from city centre. I've done a few month long backpacking trips around Europe and if the train can get me there within 4 hours I won't even consider a flight unless it's significantly cheaper (greater than 50%)

As if most businesses were located in city centers...

In Europe this is more often the case. Listen people, either we are serious about the measures we adopt to lessen the harmful effects of travel, or we are not. I know it's a heartbreaking realization on a website like a.net, but human beings, do you want your descendants to live and prosper or not? If so, there are a lot of current habits which need to be changed, including LESS travel altogether - less airline travel, less train travel, less automobile travel, more bicycling and more walking - and for people to fashion their lives so that MUCH less travel is necessary.

So take the following real-world scenario. Two years ago, I moved because the cost of living where I used to live was too high. I still have friends where I used to live, and they live over 1,000 miles away. If I want to visit them, do I fly or drive. Walking or even biking 1,100 miles isn't an option, Google maps says it would take 362 hours and 105 hours respectively, and that's one way. I don't get enough time off work to be able to do that. Or do you suggest that I just completely forget that they even exist. Also, if you limit yourself to walking and biking, what do you do about food. If you live near a store, fine, but not everyone lives near a store, that's just impossible.
Captain Kevin
 
MIflyer12
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:01 am

spinotter wrote:
And everyone and everything needs to be refashioned so that less CO2 emissions are produced.


You're going to find a lot of people in this forum who do not accept the science behind that position.
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:10 am

Go woke go broke, Someone will fill the space left by KLM when they go bankrupt. Point to Point and Transit yields are closely linked - if you fill up more with one type, it affects the other, Someone from GVA/MXP may connect through AMS to fly onward to anywhere KL flies. If point to point traffic demand drops, the frequencies drop and if the total number of seats drops then the ability for transit through AMS is reduced or even causes KL to cancel the route, so they will travel by other carriers, not by train. At that point loss of feed starts to affect the viability of your long haul network.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy rail journeys, but not if I have a week off work and want to maximize my time away or have a deadline or series of deadlines that I need to string together then it is useless.
I would also add that, even if 20 people decide not to fly and go by train the same flight that they would have flown will still fly either with 10-20 less passengers and make the flight less efficient and still departing. or the airline will fill with 20 other passengers.

People that suggest this kind of thing seem to forget that there are places on earth without the ability/income/geographical location to do this. My country is 3h flight aware from any other land mass. and then10-12h away from any other continent. I cannot take a high speed rail even domestically with such a narrow gauge and windy roads and there's a 3h30min ferry ride in the middle of the two islands even if there was (and volcanic fault which prevents bridges)..
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
janbrubel
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:44 am

In Europe recently flying, especially short haul, has received a lot of criticism from environmentalist organisations. They do have a valid argument seeing that it is scientifically proven that the impact on the environment is a lot higher per mile / per pax when you fly, compared to taking a (high speed) train. Numbers aren't unanimous but no matter how you calculate it, the train is always better for the climate.

Purely practical it's another matter. That is why it surprises me that KLM is supporting this argument. It is part of their business and there are no signs that this business is threatened in any way in the next decades, besides maybe a travel tax imposed on tickets (many European governments are considering this, it's sold as caring for the environment but of course it's mostly a way to support the national bank account) and a few people consciously choosing for the more environment friendly option. Unless a massive high speed rail infrastructure upgrade would be magically realised in the next years or unless flying would be taxed so drastically high that the price advantage is completely lost (not going to happen, no politician could sell this), short haul flights aren't going to loose a lot of their popularity.

Flying at this moment is simply more practical and, more importantly, a lot cheaper, even a flying tax won't change that. Train tickets are almost always more and often a lot more expensive. There are developments towards low-cost high speed trains like Ouigo in France. The cost cutting concept however adds a lot of the hassles that are considered to make flying the less practical option, like being at the train station x time before the train departure, check in procedures, luggage limitations, ...

Next to that, the high speed rail network in Europe might seem well developed, when you want to go outside the core network or cross national borders, you're certainly not in for a more practical or faster trip. Think connections with waiting times, even switching between different rail stations in a city, commuter trains to reach your actual destination, ...

I can only assume that KLM is making this statement to try and support a climate friendly image. Still awkward. Too easy to call their bluff, they fly to Brussels and Paris. The high speed rail line between those cities is probably the best developed and most used in Europe, one of the few lines where the train is actual a better option to travel practically. I'd say time to put your money where your mouth is ...
 
DFW17L
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:49 am

KLM could always change their paint scheme to green.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:53 am

This is like In n Out telling customers to become vegan. I would not be a happy camper if my company was directly working against itself.
 
Babyshark
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:15 am

usdcaguy wrote:
People do not use video conferencing when making sales, because they cannot entertain customers as they would like. They must also travel to conferences, network and feel a connection with others. Air travel makes that happen. Sure, you can take the train from AMS to Brussels, but taking the train even as far as Lyon is time consuming and costly. Let’s not even talk about the US, where you either fly or drive to the point of exhaustion, unless you’re located between Boston and DC. That said, US air carriers have done achingly little to use biofuels, and they may need them sooner than they think.


Trying to use video call for sales would be telling the customer they’re not that important. So it won’t work.

As to biofuels, they’re super expensive and not needed. No shortage of oil. The only people who want us to think there is a shortage of oil is... oil companies and people who mistakenly think fossil fuels means oil comes from dinosaurs. There’s a lot of money to be made by selling a high quantity product at a high price because people think the supply is low.
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:56 am

It makes good sense, you know. Exactly how profitable do you think those short flights are? Amsterdam is slot constrained and the pilot shortage is looming. Better to spend your resources on the big money earners. And if KLM gets to sell the train ticket, why not?

Brussels, Düsseldorf, Bremen, Hamburg, Köln and even Paris make sense on high speed railways from Amsterdam.
 
konrad
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:11 am

I can't wait to hear MOL asking for the same thing. If people in Europe are flying too much short-haul it is because of the ridiculous 'Hey, let"s fly to XXX for a weekend break, there is a 19 Euro fare on Ryanair" attitude.
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:21 am

konrad wrote:
I can't wait to hear MOL asking for the same thing. If people in Europe are flying too much short-haul it is because of the ridiculous 'Hey, let"s fly to XXX for a weekend break, there is a 19 Euro fare on Ryanair" attitude.


Low cost coaches and rail fares are beginning to impact Ryanair too. Customers are getting accustumed to the reality that flying Ryanair is much more than just 19 eur.

I can get from my front door to Berlin for between 10 and 20 eur by train and coach. If I had to take EasyJet, it would be at least 60 eur on top of the fare just for tickets to and from the airports. Overall, it only costs me 1 hour more, and I am on 1 ticket all the way, with compensations at more than 1 hours delay and free, instant rebookings in case of missed connections.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:57 am

It’s like someone just threw a bucket of ice water on us and ironically it’s someone in the industry. I know it will be difficult for some of the jet setters on this board who have become accustomed to traveling to far flung destinations for both business and pleasure, but the reality is all of that is coming at an increasingly high cost to our future and we need to take the impact of that into consideration every time we get the travel bug (or the Instagram bug).
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

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gatibosgru
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:58 am

Awesome move by KLM!
@DadCelo
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:00 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I agree that businesses should be doing a lot more video meetings. It's a huge waste of money to fly people around for a meeting that lasts a couple of hours. It's a very antiquated and inefficient way of doing business.


Could not agree more. Especially with remote work being ever more prevalent.
@DadCelo
 
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JakubH
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:26 am

gatibosgru wrote:
Awesome move by KLM!

Agreed. Most of the negative response does seem to come from US-based travelers for whom planes are as normal as trains and buses for Europeans, so anything critical seems unthinkable. However, with greater efficiency and high speeds, rail transport can replace planes on fairly long distances (say among US East Coast cities as one example), and create new opportunities for many cities on the way.

The US is a huge and very unequal country, with major pockets of poverty that people in cities want to avoid. Moreover, public transit has poor quality and is geared towards low-income individuals, with low comfort and safety standards. I think a major investment is needed before people can consider the choice in the US as well as Europeans can today, and the benefits of infrastructure investments would be far greater than emissions savings alone.

Good move on part of KLM, and hopefully a wake-up call for the rest of the industry: increasing frequency and volume at the expense of our environment comes with diminishing returns, as most low costs can tell you, and the costs of expanding the airline industry are very real for all of us in non-monetary terms. One must add, though, that other industries should follow suit (agriculture, etc.).
Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less.
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SeoulIncheon
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:43 am

gatibosgru wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I agree that businesses should be doing a lot more video meetings. It's a huge waste of money to fly people around for a meeting that lasts a couple of hours. It's a very antiquated and inefficient way of doing business.


Could not agree more. Especially with remote work being ever more prevalent.


Only if one has tried a video conference...lossy video and sound with frequent disconnects which makes anything very unintelligible and unpleasant, and as one has pointed out, it also gives message that "we don't care about you at all" to the customer. Better not to do any conference and save your time, than do video conference, give unpleasant experience and piss off your your customer.
 
PHLCVGAMTK
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:48 am

VSMUT wrote:
It makes good sense, you know. Exactly how profitable do you think those short flights are? Amsterdam is slot constrained and the pilot shortage is looming. Better to spend your resources on the big money earners. And if KLM gets to sell the train ticket, why not?

Brussels, Düsseldorf, Bremen, Hamburg, Köln and even Paris make sense on high speed railways from Amsterdam.


I'm amazed how few people have picked up on this. KLM's fortress hub has excellent integrated rail service, and a long-haul catchment monopoly that's bigger than the country itself. Does KLM want its marginal slot going to a Cityhopper E175 to the Midlands, or a 767 to the Midwest? If people shift short-haul flying to rail, who does that hurt, KLM at AMS, or FR at EIN? Looking at the other side of the company, has TGV's destruction of the Paris-Lyon air market since 1983 been good or bad for AF's hub at CDG?

Sure, KLM can easily tell its customers that a short-haul drawdown is good for them and good for the planet. It is! But it's fantastic business for KLM.
 
PHLCVGAMTK
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:52 am

WayexTDI wrote:
spinotter wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
As if most businesses were located in city centers...


In Europe this is more often the case. Listen people, either we are serious about the measures we adopt to lessen the harmful effects of travel, or we are not. I know it's a heartbreaking realization on a website like a.net, but human beings, do you want your descendants to live and prosper or not? If so, there are a lot of current habits which need to be changed, including LESS travel altogether - less airline travel, less train travel, less automobile travel, more bicycling and mor walking - and for people to fashion their lives so that MUCH less travel is necessary.

In Europe, this is not often the case.

Businesses are usually on the outside of city centers; because the cost of offices within city centers have skyrocketed and because there was not enough space to put more offices.


Ah, yes, the "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded" argument.
 
ABpositive
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:53 am

JakubH wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Awesome move by KLM!

Agreed. Most of the negative response does seem to come from US-based travelers for whom planes are as normal as trains and buses for Europeans, so anything critical seems unthinkable. However, with greater efficiency and high speeds, rail transport can replace planes on fairly long distances (say among US East Coast cities as one example), and create new opportunities for many cities on the way.

The US is a huge and very unequal country, with major pockets of poverty that people in cities want to avoid. Moreover, public transit has poor quality and is geared towards low-income individuals, with low comfort and safety standards. I think a major investment is needed before people can consider the choice in the US as well as Europeans can today, and the benefits of infrastructure investments would be far greater than emissions savings alone.

Good move on part of KLM, and hopefully a wake-up call for the rest of the industry: increasing frequency and volume at the expense of our environment comes with diminishing returns, as most low costs can tell you, and the costs of expanding the airline industry are very real for all of us in non-monetary terms. One must add, though, that other industries should follow suit (agriculture, etc.).


I am skeptical about how genuine the KLM are in what they are saying. I see it as green-washing directed at consumers to identify KLM as being environmentally progressive, choose them and be willing to pay more. If they were genuinely concerned about the cause, I would expect to see some concrete actions, e.g. denser configuration to reduce CO2/mile/pax, investing in efficiency technology (which I'm sure they are looking at but only if it saves the bottom line, not the environment), removing short-haul routes where train lines exist, push their partners to do the same.
I'm still encouraged though to hear discussions about responsible flying.
 
SCQ83
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:08 am

VSMUT wrote:
It makes good sense, you know. Exactly how profitable do you think those short flights are? Amsterdam is slot constrained and the pilot shortage is looming. Better to spend your resources on the big money earners. And if KLM gets to sell the train ticket, why not?

Brussels, Düsseldorf, Bremen, Hamburg, Köln and even Paris make sense on high speed railways from Amsterdam.


Exactly. If those passengers on services from BRU or DUS to AMS to connect on KLM's network (KLM does not serve CGN anymore) were to use the train to Schiphol Airport railway station, KLM could use those valuable slots and planes to increase existing routes or open new ones.
 
Blerg
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:23 am

It's pretty idiotic to attack the aviation industry which has done so much to reduce emissions. Why isn't anyone attacking airports for their expansion of terminals which consume a lot of energy and provide a lot of extra waste/trash? Why didn't KL encourage AMS to halt the expansion of the terminal so as to be more eco-friendly? Or are we obsessing about planes because they are the easy target?

My guess is that KL isn't making money on these routes hence why they are trying to save face if they start cutting them. Otherwise they would be encouraging people to sail across the Atlantic to save polar bears. However they are not since they are probably making money there.

The solution isn't to keep on switching people to trains, the solution is to keep on investing in biofuels which will make the aviation industry more sustainable long-term. And anyway, unless trains are powered by solar power or if electricity comes from waves or wind then they are not that 'green' either.
 
NZ321
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:50 am

spinotter wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Train travel is much more convenient up to a 3 hour trip maybe even 4. You go from city centre to city centre, the process is a lot more relaxed, no hassle with security, waiting around terminals, lining up to check in, security, board flights, waiting for any bags, transport into and from city centre. I've done a few month long backpacking trips around Europe and if the train can get me there within 4 hours I won't even consider a flight unless it's significantly cheaper (greater than 50%)

As if most businesses were located in city centers...


In Europe this is more often the case. Listen people, either we are serious about the measures we adopt to lessen the harmful effects of travel, or we are not. I know it's a heartbreaking realization on a website like a.net, but human beings, do you want your descendants to live and prosper or not? If so, there are a lot of current habits which need to be changed, including LESS travel altogether - less airline travel, less train travel, less automobile travel, more bicycling and more walking - and for people to fashion their lives so that MUCH less travel is necessary.


Well said. In full endorsement of your comments. :)
There is the added issue around slot congestion at European hubs like AMS.
Plane mad!
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:05 am

VSMUT wrote:
It makes good sense, you know. Exactly how profitable do you think those short flights are? Amsterdam is slot constrained and the pilot shortage is looming. Better to spend your resources on the big money earners. And if KLM gets to sell the train ticket, why not?

Brussels, Düsseldorf, Bremen, Hamburg, Köln and even Paris make sense on high speed railways from Amsterdam.


And here we´ve the real argument for KLM´s call. A lot of slots and resources are wasted on these short flights for mostly connecting passengers. As I´m living around Bremen I´m perfectly aware how many people connect, and how many only fly AMS-BRE or BRE-AMS. Tiny percentage. Motivating these people to travel to Amsterdam and fly from there is certainly of higher value to KLM than operating a pure (likely little profitable) feeder. Whilst Bremen is due to geography and direct [train] connections not a good example where such a switch makes sense, DUS, PAR, CGN and some other destinations make a lot of sense to offer a rail feeder.

In other words - at least from my point of view - KLM is just applying common business sense by asking a specific group of passengers to think about their mode of travel.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,...
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:09 am

ABpositive wrote:
I am skeptical about how genuine the KLM are in what they are saying. I see it as green-washing directed at consumers to identify KLM as being environmentally progressive, choose them and be willing to pay more. If they were genuinely concerned about the cause, I would expect to see some concrete actions, e.g. denser configuration to reduce CO2/mile/pax, investing in efficiency technology (which I'm sure they are looking at but only if it saves the bottom line, not the environment), removing short-haul routes where train lines exist, push their partners to do the same.
I'm still encouraged though to hear discussions about responsible flying.


Take a look into KLM´s inflight magazine. There is usually each and every month, or at least every quarter, one or two pages dedicated to KLM´s advances in "getting greener", e.g. how the use of lighter trolleys, container etc. reduces fuel, e-driven airport trucks being employed, biofuel employed etc. There is a lot of concrete action going on and reported.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,...
 
Blerg
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:14 am

Flying-Tiger wrote:
ABpositive wrote:
I am skeptical about how genuine the KLM are in what they are saying. I see it as green-washing directed at consumers to identify KLM as being environmentally progressive, choose them and be willing to pay more. If they were genuinely concerned about the cause, I would expect to see some concrete actions, e.g. denser configuration to reduce CO2/mile/pax, investing in efficiency technology (which I'm sure they are looking at but only if it saves the bottom line, not the environment), removing short-haul routes where train lines exist, push their partners to do the same.
I'm still encouraged though to hear discussions about responsible flying.


Take a look into KLM´s inflight magazine. There is usually each and every month, or at least every quarter, one or two pages dedicated to KLM´s advances in "getting greener", e.g. how the use of lighter trolleys, container etc. reduces fuel, e-driven airport trucks being employed, biofuel employed etc. There is a lot of concrete action going on and reported.


How exactly is an e-driven truck environmentally friendly move? To me it's more a cost cutting measure.
 
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Lingon
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:17 am

I like the statement in the article "The airline itself is using 57 times more biofuel than in 2011" in the article. It says absolutely nothing. They could have used 1 kg in 2011 and 57 kg this year...

Of course they are doing green-washing, they do not like to be the big bad wolf here - maybe people will elect politicians who will impose draconian taxes on KLM. That said, I also agree with the idea they want to draw connections to AMS with a train leg in the journey.
 
andymartin
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:27 am

This is corporate virtue signalling of the highest order. Today it's the myth of climate change, tomorrow it will be something else.
 
OlafW
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:31 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
For the love of God, get off your insane environmental tangent. The world and human race isn't going to cease to exist because we are flying and driving instead of walking. ... Some large cataclysmic event (volcano or asteroid) will take us out before anything humans do.


There's just thing about your "argument": The cataclysmic event may or may not come, mostly independent of what we do. And it may come soon or not, who knows. But the impact of emissions and pollution is something everyone of us can work on and reduce effects.
I am certainly not the most green person on earth and I love flying as much as most others here. But what is the worst that could happen if we all reduce our impact? Right, the world might be a place worth living for a longer time - and that alone should be reason enough to change something. Every little helps.

Blerg wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:
Take a look into KLM´s inflight magazine. There is usually each and every month, or at least every quarter, one or two pages dedicated to KLM´s advances in "getting greener", e.g. how the use of lighter trolleys, container etc. reduces fuel, e-driven airport trucks being employed, biofuel employed etc. There is a lot of concrete action going on and reported.


How exactly is an e-driven truck environmentally friendly move? To me it's more a cost cutting measure.


To some extent, both. An e-driven truck certainly has a large footprint when looking at where Lithium for the batteries is sourced and what that does to the local environment. But there's the other side on which no fossil fuels are needed which means no energy is needed to pump up oil from depths, transporting it halfway around the world, refining, and distributing it locally. Electricity grids - when they are up to capacity - have far less impact than the whole fossil fuel chain
 
Lufthansa
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:37 am

thekorean wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
AMS is such a large connecting hub, is KLM advocating flying to AMS, then rather than flying to next destination, taking a train? Routing traffic that is today XXX-AMS-YYY, will simply change to XXX-CDG/FRA/BRS/ZRH/LHR-YYY. Not going to reduce flying, just going to reduce the routing via AMS. KLM will then fly any reduced AMS capacity to other destination. Very quickly the market will have absorbed and added back the reduced traffic.

No. They are advocating stop flying short haul on these LCC’s that are kicking our butt. Only use planes for long haul trips on airlines like KLM. Or maybe I am just cynical.

I agree. How much does KLM really make on short haul O&D flights anyway.



You have to remember the short haul is essential to the northern UK and Europe connecting to the long haul. It in itself may not make that
much money but if you want to travel from somewhere like Bergen or Edinburgh to a place like Capetown or Buenos Aires or heck even
Montreal AMS is a really well located hub and KLM was built on connecting PAX. The Dutch market alone isn't simply big enough
to support all those pax and given they have 6 big runways the likes of LHR can't handle all that traffic, which would mean another Euro hub expands
and the LH group has plenty of capacity to do so, or Norwegian sets up in town. The article correctly points out they need to look at new types
of fuels. Shutting down/ reducing an industry however is effectively saying flying is just for the elite.
 
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Aesma
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:49 am

CALMSP wrote:
I mean, WTH is he thinking???? If he's so concerned about short distance travel, get rid of some of your planes that will then force people to take a train b/c there are no flights.


Actually it's not the same thing at all. If people want to fly as much, and KLM removes flights, then another airline might take over.

If people book less flights altogether, KLM will end up removing flights, but without another airline adding some.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:53 am

As for the fate of the human race, we're pretty resilient, I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about living in a wasteland, with much less animals around, more severe weather, maybe bloody wars over resources like water, an overall lesser experience than what can be had today, just because some people don't want to compromise.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
ME720
Posts: 163
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:02 am

gunnerman wrote:
KLM has launched a campaign, which marks the airline’s 100th anniversary, for people to consider train travel for shorter distances and to replace face-to-face meetings with video calls.
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2019/jul/11/dutch-airline-klm-calls-for-people-to-fly-less-carbon-offsetting-scheme


A smart PR move. Free publicity, without them having to take any measures to reduce air travel. Had they been serious they could have taken this opportunity to announce axing their ridiculous AMS-BRU route. 1h30’ by train between both cities.
 
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andrefranca
Posts: 873
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:27 am

not going to fly less, or recycle or anything, there is 60% less of animals now because of us, humans HAVE to go...
Andre F. :blockhead:

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