madmouse
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:58 pm

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:49 am

Correctly if I am wrong, but KLM Always had a verry good relationship with the Dutch Railways.

I believe at some point they even owned some stock in some train projects involving train transport to and from the airport.
 
axiom
Posts: 869
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:03 am

andymartin wrote:
This is corporate virtue signalling of the highest order. Today it's the myth of climate change, tomorrow it will be something else.


This is a forum for factual discussion of events. Climate change is a scientific fact. Hyperbolic denialism is the new Flat Earthism.

This may be corporate virtue signaling, but this is also how social change happens in the contemporary global system. For better or worse.
 
SanDiegoLover
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:24 am

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:11 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
And everyone and everything needs to be refashioned so that less CO2 emissions are produced.


You're going to find a lot of people in this forum who do not accept the science behind that position.


There are a lot of people who are “flat Earthers” too.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:17 am

a320fan wrote:
Train travel is much more convenient up to a 3 hour trip maybe even 4. You go from city centre to city centre, the process is a lot more relaxed, no hassle with security, waiting around terminals, lining up to check in, security, board flights, waiting for any bags, transport into and from city centre. I've done a few month long backpacking trips around Europe and if the train can get me there within 4 hours I won't even consider a flight unless it's significantly cheaper (greater than 50%)


MIght agree for example for travelling between London and Paris, for example, and London and Brussels. But have you imagined ditching the KLM Cityhopper 30 - 35 minutes betwen London and Amsterdan for the 6 hours journey by train?
 
StudiodeKadent
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:43 am

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:18 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
And everyone and everything needs to be refashioned so that less CO2 emissions are produced.


You're going to find a lot of people in this forum who do not accept the science behind that position.


Science has shown that anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions likely contribute to an increase in average global temperatures.

Science does not prove that "everyone and everything needs to be refashioned so that less CO2 emissions are produced."

It is one thing to accept the existence of anthropogenic global warming.

It is an entirely different thing to believe the AGW requires a radical reformation in our societies and lifestyles in order to avert catastrophic consequences.

------

As I see it this move is cynical. For one, a lot of pro-environment people tend to be relatively wealthy, so KLM's advertisement here can be seen as signalling to a relatively well-off consumer base. "Buy from us. We share your values. Just like when you buy organic fairtrade coffee."

Another way to interpret the ad is that it encourages people to take less short-haul air travel... thus disproportionately reducing the profitability of low-cost carriers (as LCC models are mostly suited for short-haul flights), and in turn reducing competition. And this wouldn't surprise me. Environmentalism has ALWAYS been an enemy of low-cost mass production, and has ALWAYS resulted in more expensive consumer products.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:22 am

usdcaguy wrote:
People do not use video conferencing when making sales, because they cannot entertain customers as they would like. They must also travel to conferences, network and feel a connection with others. Air travel makes that happen. Sure, you can take the train from AMS to Brussels, but taking the train even as far as Lyon is time consuming and costly. Let’s not even talk about the US, where you either fly or drive to the point of exhaustion, unless you’re located between Boston and DC. That said, US air carriers have done achingly little to use biofuels, and they may need them sooner than they think.


We used to have Polycom (still have, I think...) and now have Skype for Business, Blue Jeans, Powwow, etc etc etc. Yet, people still do take the car, the train and the plane for meetings.

Why? for the entertainment? Not really.

People do this because the face to face opportunity, the possibility to actually meet a person while developing a professional relationhip is still and will be paramount.

It will ot change. We need to accept this. We need to actually see people and places. What we need is to control our travels and to increase efficiency of our means of transport. We are doing that but not on enough pace.

But to stop travelling altogether is sick.
 
SKAirbus
Posts: 1535
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:18 pm

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:34 am

I'm cynical about this. Seems like a marketing ploy, trying to get people to think "oh, look KLM care about the environment so let's fly with them".

Firstly, KLM need to lead by example and get rid of their ridiculous and unnecessary AMS-BRU route - a distance of 158km / 98 miles as the crow flies. Instead they should work with the train operators to add their flight numbers to train departures just like AF do between CDG and Brussel Zuid station.

With all the airport formalities, check-in etc, if you are flying with KLM from BRU to say JFK via AMS then there should be no time difference in taking the train.
Base: BRU
 
AMS18C36C
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:55 am

madmouse wrote:
Correctly if I am wrong, but KLM Always had a verry good relationship with the Dutch Railways.

I believe at some point they even owned some stock in some train projects involving train transport to and from the airport.


KLm used to be a minority shareholder in High Speed Alliance, NS Dutch Railways being the majority shareholder. This company ran the high-speed rail link between Amsterdam/Schiphol and Rotterdam/Breda/Antwerp. They ordered trains from AnsaldoBreda, which were withdrawn from service after a mere 40 days. Since 2015, High Speed Alliance is no more, as the concession has been integrated into NS’s national rail concession.
Besides the NS trains, Thalys runs multiple daily trains over the line between Amsterdam/Schiphol/Rotterdam and Brussels/Paris, and two frequencies going to Paris and Disneyland. Eurostar run two frequencies a day to London, with a third coming sometime soon.
 
kimimm19
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:03 am

StudiodeKadent wrote:

As I see it this move is cynical. For one, a lot of pro-environment people tend to be relatively wealthy, so KLM's advertisement here can be seen as signalling to a relatively well-off consumer base. "Buy from us. We share your values. Just like when you buy organic fairtrade coffee."



I don't agree with you on this at all.

Climate skeptics have always generally been from the right, rather than left. Just look at the relationship of religion and conservatism.

Adapting to climate change RESTRICTS (not changes which includes everyone) the more opulent lifestyle of wealthier people who can afford multiple cars, eat more meat, take holidays by flying, buy clothes, consume more which generates more waste, and be far less cognisant of the resources they use.
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:17 am

Jomar777 wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Train travel is much more convenient up to a 3 hour trip maybe even 4. You go from city centre to city centre, the process is a lot more relaxed, no hassle with security, waiting around terminals, lining up to check in, security, board flights, waiting for any bags, transport into and from city centre. I've done a few month long backpacking trips around Europe and if the train can get me there within 4 hours I won't even consider a flight unless it's significantly cheaper (greater than 50%)


MIght agree for example for travelling between London and Paris, for example, and London and Brussels. But have you imagined ditching the KLM Cityhopper 30 - 35 minutes betwen London and Amsterdan for the 6 hours journey by train?


That's obviously an extreme example. The UK is separated from Amsterdam by water. Same for Norway. This is clearly meant for shorter continental destinations. It doesn't even have to mean a total closure of flights on those short routes, but it could mean a reduction of flights from, say, 5 to 3 a day, with HSR taking up the slack.

But keep in mind, this is only possible on the condition of proper HSR. As the poster further up said, Bremen is the perfect distance for a fast HSR service, but infrastructure is missing. A modern 350/400 km/h line could do the route in just about an hour. Today it takes closer to 4. Hamburg could be cut down to 90 minutes, but likewise takes much longer.
 
EWRandMDW
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:23 am

andrefranca wrote:
not going to fly less, or recycle or anything, there is 60% less of animals now because of us, humans HAVE to go...



You first my friend!
 
MIflyer12
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:51 am

SanDiegoLover wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
And everyone and everything needs to be refashioned so that less CO2 emissions are produced.


You're going to find a lot of people in this forum who do not accept the science behind that position.


There are a lot of people who are “flat Earthers” too.


I'm not disagreeing with the science. I'm pointing out the presence of people who don't accept the science and thus insist that no action is necessary. Or, people who generally accept the science but reject the prescription of emitting less greenhouse gases. The 'Let somebody else change' crowd, if you will.

As for the cynics who suggest KL is just trying to look good to environmentalists, let me suggest fewer short-haul flights can be in KL's interest. AMS is capacity-constrained: Do they want to waste slots and passenger counts on 400km flights or to prioritize 9,000km flights? Rail is a viable connecting alternative to lots of W European destinations from AMS but NYC demands a flight.
 
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ricport
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:12 pm

axiom wrote:
andymartin wrote:
This is corporate virtue signalling of the highest order. Today it's the myth of climate change, tomorrow it will be something else.


This is a forum for factual discussion of events. Climate change is a scientific fact. Hyperbolic denialism is the new Flat Earthism.

This may be corporate virtue signaling, but this is also how social change happens in the contemporary global system. For better or worse.


So, give us some SPECIFICS. EXACTLY how many degrees does the global average temperature need to come down to prevent this man-made cataclysm? What SPECIFICALLY needs to be done to achieve this?

And is it OK that China, India, etc. are basically signing on to climate treaties and ignoring them? What should be done to punish them?
 
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ricport
Posts: 145
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:19 pm

StudiodeKadent wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
And everyone and everything needs to be refashioned so that less CO2 emissions are produced.


You're going to find a lot of people in this forum who do not accept the science behind that position.


Science has shown that anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions likely contribute to an increase in average global temperatures.

Science does not prove that "everyone and everything needs to be refashioned so that less CO2 emissions are produced."

It is one thing to accept the existence of anthropogenic global warming.

It is an entirely different thing to believe the AGW requires a radical reformation in our societies and lifestyles in order to avert catastrophic consequences.

------

As I see it this move is cynical. For one, a lot of pro-environment people tend to be relatively wealthy, so KLM's advertisement here can be seen as signalling to a relatively well-off consumer base. "Buy from us. We share your values. Just like when you buy organic fairtrade coffee."

Another way to interpret the ad is that it encourages people to take less short-haul air travel... thus disproportionately reducing the profitability of low-cost carriers (as LCC models are mostly suited for short-haul flights), and in turn reducing competition. And this wouldn't surprise me. Environmentalism has ALWAYS been an enemy of low-cost mass production, and has ALWAYS resulted in more expensive consumer products.


There's also the fact that many of the nauseatingly arrogant elitists screaming about climate change often have no problem living in McMansions, driving/riding in SUVs and never deigning to fly in anything but private jets (e.g., DiCaprio, Gore).
 
afcjets
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
And everyone and everything needs to be refashioned so that less CO2 emissions are produced.


You're going to find a lot of people in this forum who do not accept the science behind that position.



Is a.net a restricted website in China?

Why do the Chinese deny science?
Last edited by afcjets on Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
afcjets
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:30 pm

delete
 
GianiDC
Posts: 179
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:38 pm

ME720 wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
KLM has launched a campaign, which marks the airline’s 100th anniversary, for people to consider train travel for shorter distances and to replace face-to-face meetings with video calls.
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2019/jul/11/dutch-airline-klm-calls-for-people-to-fly-less-carbon-offsetting-scheme


A smart PR move. Free publicity, without them having to take any measures to reduce air travel. Had they been serious they could have taken this opportunity to announce axing their ridiculous AMS-BRU route. 1h30’ by train between both cities.


I guess most of the pax onboard the BRU-AMS flights are connecting passengers to all over the world. So if KL would axe the route connecting passengers will use CDG, LHR, FRA, etc..
That´s the problem with these short haul flights and what many people not that interested in aviation forget. The O&D demand by air on these routes is close too 0. It is basically all connecting traffic.
In germany there is quite a lot of discussion of the NUE-MUC route operated by LH. It´s extremly short haul and nobody who really wants to travel between the 2 cities flies it. Again all connecting traffic.
In my opinion if you are serious for solving the problem we need many new high speed rail lines all over europe, especially to airports. But these are of course extremley expensive and take a lot of time planning and constrcuting.
 
Silverstreak
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:01 pm

Bravo KLM! A great effort for us to use common sense in our lives and a subtle realistic assessment of Earths’ environment today. Your current promotion is a sound one and, if I may say - very Dutch. It’s just a good suggestion by KLM for us to remember to think of others on our planet. As for those in the “industry”? You, like many in the “first world” - change and technical development are coming fast and furious. Sad, but true. Change and adjust.
 
axiom
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:12 pm

ricport wrote:
axiom wrote:
andymartin wrote:
This is corporate virtue signalling of the highest order. Today it's the myth of climate change, tomorrow it will be something else.


This is a forum for factual discussion of events. Climate change is a scientific fact. Hyperbolic denialism is the new Flat Earthism.

This may be corporate virtue signaling, but this is also how social change happens in the contemporary global system. For better or worse.


So, give us some SPECIFICS. EXACTLY how many degrees does the global average temperature need to come down to prevent this man-made cataclysm? What SPECIFICALLY needs to be done to achieve this?

And is it OK that China, India, etc. are basically signing on to climate treaties and ignoring them? What should be done to punish them?


There is ample, Plain English scientific discussion readily available online. There are, moreover, several initiatives - like Project Drawdown - that analyze different pathways to reducing atmospheric change to less catastrophic levels. It is not my job to educate folks who begin from such a bad faith perspective. If you can log on to this website and post, you can use the internet to enrich yourself.

Imagine if we were having this conversation about basic aerodynamics. “PROVE that gravity exists!” You don’t see me going into a thread about engine technology or aircraft design and posting things like that, interrogating the fundamental scientific principles of a field of expertise. On the contrary, I read and enjoy the expert discussion, and I only chime in when I have value to add.

Your second set of questions is a political one, answers to which I encourage you to explore through any number of reports and writing about the geopolitics of climate governance.

Related to the thread and the BRU question: yes, of course this is connecting traffic. Nobody in their right mind would fly BRU-AMS locally. There is a DL check in counter at Bruxelles Midi station to allow for pax to check bags and travel to AMS airport directly — it seems that continuing to invest in these kinds of relationships, which make the train/plane interchange as seamless as possible, are a great way to go in terms of reducing connex over short flights.
Last edited by axiom on Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
axiom
Posts: 869
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:14 pm

Silverstreak wrote:
Bravo KLM! A great effort for us to use common sense in our lives and a subtle realistic assessment of Earths’ environment today. Your current promotion is a sound one and, if I may say - very Dutch. It’s just a good suggestion by KLM for us to remember to think of others on our planet. As for those in the “industry”? You, like many in the “first world” - change and technical development are coming fast and furious. Sad, but true. Change and adjust.


Indeed. Political and economic change is happening in response to growing environmental insight. Better to stay ahead of it, and try to lead through innovation and new organizing principles.
 
StudiodeKadent
Posts: 399
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:15 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:

As I see it this move is cynical. For one, a lot of pro-environment people tend to be relatively wealthy, so KLM's advertisement here can be seen as signalling to a relatively well-off consumer base. "Buy from us. We share your values. Just like when you buy organic fairtrade coffee."



I don't agree with you on this at all.

Climate skeptics have always generally been from the right, rather than left. Just look at the relationship of religion and conservatism.

Adapting to climate change RESTRICTS (not changes which includes everyone) the more opulent lifestyle of wealthier people who can afford multiple cars, eat more meat, take holidays by flying, buy clothes, consume more which generates more waste, and be far less cognisant of the resources they use.


More wealthy parts of the First World, typically metropolitan cities, tend to vote to the left, relative to the rural and poorer parts.

Fashion, media, and luxury goods industries disproportionately are dominated by and donate to culturally left-wing political causes.

Huge swathes of luxury/higher-priced goods are made according to environmentalist principles. Organic, fairtrade, boutique and local are almost always more expensive than industrially-produced, free-trade and international products.

You're not wrong that climate skeptics have generally been from the right. But is it necessarily correct to say that climate skeptics, or the "right" in general, is rich? I would say no. Huge swathes of rightists, including the religious rightists you bring up, are poor, not rich.

Do you really think it is poor people buying products like, say, Fair Vodka? That is hardly a cheap vodka. Its like 80 bucks a bottle in my country. Great stuff, really tasty, but its a luxury good.

"Sustainable" environmentalist-approved boutique local biodynamic organic fairtrade vegan blah blah blah... all that stuff is a kind of luxury consumption.

That isn't moral condemnation. I like Fair Vodka and there are several organic, boutique etc. products I really enjoy. But the reality is that they're luxury goods relative to what mass production can provide for us. You cannot feed the world on the output of organic farming, even if you were to make the entire world's farmland all-organic and you were to greatly increase the amount of the world's land dedicated to farming.
 
User avatar
william
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:26 pm

spinotter wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Train travel is much more convenient up to a 3 hour trip maybe even 4. You go from city centre to city centre, the process is a lot more relaxed, no hassle with security, waiting around terminals, lining up to check in, security, board flights, waiting for any bags, transport into and from city centre. I've done a few month long backpacking trips around Europe and if the train can get me there within 4 hours I won't even consider a flight unless it's significantly cheaper (greater than 50%)

As if most businesses were located in city centers...


In Europe this is more often the case. Listen people, either we are serious about the measures we adopt to lessen the harmful effects of travel, or we are not. I know it's a heartbreaking realization on a website like a.net, but human beings, do you want your descendants to live and prosper or not? If so, there are a lot of current habits which need to be changed, including LESS travel altogether - less airline travel, less train travel, less automobile travel, more bicycling and more walking - and for people to fashion their lives so that MUCH less travel is necessary.


1. Take all of those billions of Euros coming from "climate change" taxes that no seems to know where the funds go too. and plant more trees. It will at least be a tangible action seen by people and effective CO2 reducer component.................If one is really serious.

2. You are pushing for less travel? More travel is needed in a world where everyone is sits at home in front a monitor and sees the world editorialized rather than experiencing it. I just got back from Europe and I am glad I burned that carbon footprint to gain life experiences and memories not realized sitting all day in front of Facebook.I fear the future you seek.
 
afcjets
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:29 pm

Since AMS is constrained, I think KL is going to launch ground transportation, sorta like CO or UA did at EWR with buses that they gave flight numbers. Hopefully it won't be that bad though.
 
AleksW
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:36 pm

Climate change, as it's currently presented (warming), is a total BS and I suspect the CO2 emissions as well (at least very exaggerated). Just plant more trees. You know, human bodies also produce CO2 (which is necessary for health), so let's stop reproducing ourselves. Problem solved. Earth is saved.
 
bmartino99
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 7:57 pm

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:37 pm

I think I'll start worrying about the 25-30 flights I take a year for both business and pleasure when I stop seeing private jets at airports. People are worried about a plane that transports 150-200 people at a time while hundreds of jets are buzzing around transporting 1 or 2 people. Maybe KLM should look at bringing back travel by airship as that has to be much better for the environment.
 
afgeneral
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:43 pm

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:39 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
It makes good sense, you know. Exactly how profitable do you think those short flights are? Amsterdam is slot constrained and the pilot shortage is looming. Better to spend your resources on the big money earners. And if KLM gets to sell the train ticket, why not?

Brussels, Düsseldorf, Bremen, Hamburg, Köln and even Paris make sense on high speed railways from Amsterdam.


And here we´ve the real argument for KLM´s call. A lot of slots and resources are wasted on these short flights for mostly connecting passengers. As I´m living around Bremen I´m perfectly aware how many people connect, and how many only fly AMS-BRE or BRE-AMS. Tiny percentage. Motivating these people to travel to Amsterdam and fly from there is certainly of higher value to KLM than operating a pure (likely little profitable) feeder. Whilst Bremen is due to geography and direct [train] connections not a good example where such a switch makes sense, DUS, PAR, CGN and some other destinations make a lot of sense to offer a rail feeder.

In other words - at least from my point of view - KLM is just applying common business sense by asking a specific group of passengers to think about their mode of travel.


If that was the case why didn't they start by building a true train feeder network by engaging rail companies to create true airline - train ticket? Baggage handling, delay / cancellation coverage, sterile areas / security, aligned schedules and so on. Today if you take a long train journey to / from the airport the passenger bears the risk of missed flights / trains due to delays. And trail delays are not uncommon.

I would not risk having less than 4-5 hours buffer between a train arrival time and long haul departure from AMS. Also, night trains are being phased out in Europe so arriving late at AMS is kind of useless.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:48 pm

I see it as a marketing ploy. Northern Europe is pretty liberal and thats the area that the AMS hub serves the most. Its a way to say to the travelers that their values are shared by the airline. However, actions speak louder than words. If KLM is serious, they need to start cancelling flights to cities like BRU, CGN, and FRA in favor of codesharing with train companies.

I accept that human activity is causing the planet to warm but Im skeptical of the alarmists. Im also quite annoyed by the lack of knowledge environmentalists seem to have about fossil fuels (especially those in the US). They think all fossil fuels are equally bad and natural gas is the same as coal from an emissions perspective. They dont question why a car that operates on battery power has a higher carbon footprint than a gasoline operated vehicle and just listen for buzzwords that make them feel better.

Im all for practical steps to reduce carbon emissions, but they need to be achievable. Saying that we need to start taking trains everywhere or video conferencing our customers is ridiculous.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
axiom
Posts: 869
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:50 pm

afgeneral wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
It makes good sense, you know. Exactly how profitable do you think those short flights are? Amsterdam is slot constrained and the pilot shortage is looming. Better to spend your resources on the big money earners. And if KLM gets to sell the train ticket, why not?

Brussels, Düsseldorf, Bremen, Hamburg, Köln and even Paris make sense on high speed railways from Amsterdam.


And here we´ve the real argument for KLM´s call. A lot of slots and resources are wasted on these short flights for mostly connecting passengers. As I´m living around Bremen I´m perfectly aware how many people connect, and how many only fly AMS-BRE or BRE-AMS. Tiny percentage. Motivating these people to travel to Amsterdam and fly from there is certainly of higher value to KLM than operating a pure (likely little profitable) feeder. Whilst Bremen is due to geography and direct [train] connections not a good example where such a switch makes sense, DUS, PAR, CGN and some other destinations make a lot of sense to offer a rail feeder.

In other words - at least from my point of view - KLM is just applying common business sense by asking a specific group of passengers to think about their mode of travel.


If that was the case why didn't they start by building a true train feeder network by engaging rail companies to create true airline - train ticket? Baggage handling, delay / cancellation coverage, sterile areas / security, aligned schedules and so on. Today if you take a long train journey to / from the airport the passenger bears the risk of missed flights / trains due to delays. And trail delays are not uncommon.

I would not risk having less than 4-5 hours buffer between a train arrival time and long haul departure from AMS. Also, night trains are being phased out in Europe so arriving late at AMS is kind of useless.


As mentioned above, the French TGV and Belgian(ish) Thalys have direct service to CDG and AMS, and code share tickets, train station bag drops, etc are in place. Perhaps a model to invest in.
 
iflyalexair
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:54 am

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:51 pm

santi319 wrote:
Well they should start by calling out on their own partners, like DL.

Do we really need 24 crjs a day in a route, instead of bigger AC and less frequency just because Alan the business man with the small wiener will throw a fit if he doesnt have 1600 options a day to go back and forth in his meetings?

They should really start somewhere.


All things considered, I wouldn't mind meeting Alan Any Size, even if he likes frequency over gauge.
 
airzona11
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly lessE

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:56 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
People do not use video conferencing when making sales, because they cannot entertain customers as they would like. They must also travel to conferences, network and feel a connection with others. Air travel makes that happen. Sure, you can take the train from AMS to Brussels, but taking the train even as far as Lyon is time consuming and costly. Let’s not even talk about the US, where you either fly or drive to the point of exhaustion, unless you’re located between Boston and DC. That said, US air carriers have done achingly little to use biofuels, and they may need them sooner than they think.


We used to have Polycom (still have, I think...) and now have Skype for Business, Blue Jeans, Powwow, etc etc etc. Yet, people still do take the car, the train and the plane for meetings.

Why? for the entertainment? Not really.

People do this because the face to face opportunity, the possibility to actually meet a person while developing a professional relationhip is still and will be paramount.

It will ot change. We need to accept this. We need to actually see people and places. What we need is to control our travels and to increase efficiency of our means of transport. We are doing that but not on enough pace.

But to stop travelling altogether is sick.


Wonderful post.
 
WeatherPilot
Posts: 514
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:04 pm

As an American what are trains?
 
HugoJunkers
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:27 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
And everyone and everything needs to be refashioned so that less CO2 emissions are produced.


You're going to find a lot of people in this forum who do not accept the science behind that position.


There are a lot of people who are “flat Earthers” too.


Climate change is not a scientific fact, at least in the sense that delirious climate change is not a measured fact nor is anthropogenic global warming. There have been no temperature increases outside of normal variances. There has definitely been an increase of atmosphere C02 concentration from 280ppm to 390ppm since before the industrial revolution yet this 30% increase had had no measurable effect. However there has also been a 6% increase in global greening in recent years possibly due to this. There has been no increase in global temperatures, no increase in surface water temperatures and no increase deep ocean temperatures and no melting of ice sheets. Despite hyperbolic and increasingly hysterical news reports we’ve had in the last 15 years these are not facts, just the media and politicians not letting a good crisis go to waste. These things may happen but the worst thing to do is panic or let oneself be tricked into anxiety thereby doing incorrect things. As someone said “it’s very difficult to dissuade a man from not believing something if his income depends on him believing it”
 
flipdewaf
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:48 pm

AMS is a pretty full hub and is the home of KLM. If the airport is choked you want to get more people on to widebodies long haul flying and those who were on short haul going on the train. Keep the movements at 500k/year and make sure that those 500k are the most valuable ones. Upping the RASM in a capacity constrained market.

Fred
Image
 
HugoJunkers
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:02 pm

I’ll go against the trend by declaring trains as vile environmental disasters, politically and monopoly driven anachronisms that need to be discouraged.

They cut the landscape in half, they separate communities, they create massive costs in the form of bridges and traffic problems for pedestrians, cars, buses and trucks and they prevent the migration and crossing of animals. Their efficiency exist only in the rare moments they are full. They are inflexible and the create the demand for high rise cities since they are not door to door. They are an anachronism from the 1800s. It’s worth noting that some legacy airlines are now deeply involved in very fast trains. Legacy carriers like KLM, Virgin, IAG. Doing a little “green branding” and some environmental sanctimony Type PR is a good way of undercutting the low cost carriers who aren’t in this monopolistic market place.

New train routes should only be allowed if 100% underground.

New technology will make trains irrelevant. EVTOL will happen. Self driving ride sharing taxis, cars, trucks and buses will happen and they won’t ever stop at traffic lights or create traffic jams. One can now go to any department store in the western world and for US$1000 or equivalent purchase a drone that fits in a 50x50cm cm square platform and can carry a GoPro camera for 40 minutes. Trials are already underway for drone delivery (Mail, post, pathology samples, medicine) and it’s only a matter of time before they start moving people without road or rail.

Aircraft are a far better way to than trains, we do need better technology such as having only 1 or no pilots with fully automatic flight to get costs down and make thinner shorter routes viable. It would be a pity to allow trains and rail to ruin the urban and countryside for another generation and burden us with billions in costs.

If we can do all meetings via FaceTime or Skype then we don’t need city centres or the trains they need to work.
 
kimimm19
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:18 pm

StudiodeKadent wrote:

More wealthy parts of the First World, typically metropolitan cities, tend to vote to the left, relative to the rural and poorer parts.

Fashion, media, and luxury goods industries disproportionately are dominated by and donate to culturally left-wing political causes.

Huge swathes of luxury/higher-priced goods are made according to environmentalist principles. Organic, fairtrade, boutique and local are almost always more expensive than industrially-produced, free-trade and international products.

You're not wrong that climate skeptics have generally been from the right. But is it necessarily correct to say that climate skeptics, or the "right" in general, is rich? I would say no. Huge swathes of rightists, including the religious rightists you bring up, are poor, not rich.

Do you really think it is poor people buying products like, say, Fair Vodka? That is hardly a cheap vodka. Its like 80 bucks a bottle in my country. Great stuff, really tasty, but its a luxury good.

"Sustainable" environmentalist-approved boutique local biodynamic organic fairtrade vegan blah blah blah... all that stuff is a kind of luxury consumption.

That isn't moral condemnation. I like Fair Vodka and there are several organic, boutique etc. products I really enjoy. But the reality is that they're luxury goods relative to what mass production can provide for us. You cannot feed the world on the output of organic farming, even if you were to make the entire world's farmland all-organic and you were to greatly increase the amount of the world's land dedicated to farming.


I think you are correct but only to some extent. I don't know what country you are from but there are two generally wealthy populations: those in the city and those in the country.
 
9Patch
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:28 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Train travel is much more convenient up to a 3 hour trip maybe even 4. You go from city centre to city centre, the process is a lot more relaxed, no hassle with security, waiting around terminals, lining up to check in, security, board flights, waiting for any bags, transport into and from city centre. I've done a few month long backpacking trips around Europe and if the train can get me there within 4 hours I won't even consider a flight unless it's significantly cheaper (greater than 50%)

As if most businesses were located in city centers...

More businesses are located in city centers than near airports.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:34 pm

9Patch wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Train travel is much more convenient up to a 3 hour trip maybe even 4. You go from city centre to city centre, the process is a lot more relaxed, no hassle with security, waiting around terminals, lining up to check in, security, board flights, waiting for any bags, transport into and from city centre. I've done a few month long backpacking trips around Europe and if the train can get me there within 4 hours I won't even consider a flight unless it's significantly cheaper (greater than 50%)

As if most businesses were located in city centers...

More businesses are located in city centers than near airports.

Never said the opposite.
But, there are much more businesses outside of city centers than within city centers; meaning you'd still have to go to the train station (which will be quite far from your job), negating the effect of the so-called convenience of train.
 
a320fan
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:45 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
9Patch wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
As if most businesses were located in city centers...

More businesses are located in city centers than near airports.

Never said the opposite.
But, there are much more businesses outside of city centers than within city centers; meaning you'd still have to go to the train station (which will be quite far from your job), negating the effect of the so-called convenience of train.


But you still have to go from the airport to your final destination, which in most cases is probably a further journey than from a main train station. Most public transport from the airports is mainly geared to get to the city centres anyway.

I flew into Paris last week and it takes a good part of an hour to take the train in to the city centre, and then if I was going somewhere without a direct airport link I would be looking at making another journey from the city centre, if I could have taken the train straight to the central station then any links to other areas would be easily accessible at higher frequency’s and less cost than from an airport station (if you can go from there at all)
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Planetalk
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:10 pm

Why are people talking about having to walk or fly anywhere? Who mentioned anything like that? They have made the perfectly reasonable suggestion people consider whether all their journeys need to be by plane, or all journeys even need to be made. Which are considerations any financially sound company should be making anyway.

No-one has said all meetings have to be done by video conference either. But to suggest it's impossible to conduct some that way is equally ridiculous. I've worked in enough places to know there are plenty of needless journey's made, and I'm not sure what equipment some of you are using that your video conferences are always a disaster, we were doing them perfectly reliably 10 years ago. Yes sometimes a trip has to be made, but not every time. And to some extent it's a herd mentality, businesses are only making personal visits because everyone else does, if everyone started doing video conferences, immediately there is no harm to anyone's ego by not flying round the world. The amount of hours of productive time by people flying around for a single meeting is astonishing. And let's be honest, however much people will deny it, we all know some people who do it for a jolly.

So there's no need to overreact and talk in such extremes. Though this is the internet so I guess expecting nuance is too much.

Furthermore, we've known about the greenhouse effect long before the theory of climate change. It's basic chemistry. Carbon dioxide absorbs heat radiation. There's nothing controversial about that. Have a look at the atmosphere of venus and why that planet has suffocated. So I am baffled that anyone thinks for some strange reason this universal chemical reaction, wouldn't have the same effect here as everywhere else in the universe.

But, scientists were persecuted for saying the earth was round. Scientists were persecuted for saying the earth orbited the sun. Scientists were persecuted for saying the earth is more than 3000 years old. People didn't believe scientists telling them smoking was bad or them. Seems crazy now huh? This will be the same. People don't like having their orthodoxies and beliefs challenged. People like the status quo. Which is why climate change is so hard tor many to accept, just like the earth being round was once. And as soon as you suggest people might have to consider changing how they live, well it's natural people don't want to listen, and this is why conspiracy theories are so appealing. Conspiracy theories are like a warm blanket for people to cuddle up in, and hide from all the scary facts.

Strangely, the same people who get so worked up about environmental action, are also often the most concerned about security and 'doing something about terrorism'. How many people died on planes from terrorism last year? How many people in the world died from causes related to pollution? Estimates say 9 million. So we'd be a lot better off dropping everything we spend on security nonsense and diverting it to environmental causes, no? Again, human beings are irrational. The easily visible and imaginable idea of a bomb terrifies them. Pollution is invisible and has its effects insidiously over years. So they don't care. Completely illogical, but that's how we are tired. Nature designed us to run away from the lion we can see, and not for a invisible, but far more real, threat that didn't exist during human evolution.
Last edited by Planetalk on Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:13 pm

JakubH wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Awesome move by KLM!


Good move on part of KLM, and hopefully a wake-up call for the rest of the industry: increasing frequency and volume at the expense of our environment comes with diminishing returns, as most low costs can tell you, and the costs of expanding the airline industry are very real for all of us in non-monetary terms. One must add, though, that other industries should follow suit (agriculture, etc.).


What exactly do you find "great" about a company So dumbed down by present hysteria that they advertise "don't buy our products"?
Will they go on a strike with that autist Greta as well?
 
Planetalk
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:17 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
JakubH wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Awesome move by KLM!


Good move on part of KLM, and hopefully a wake-up call for the rest of the industry: increasing frequency and volume at the expense of our environment comes with diminishing returns, as most low costs can tell you, and the costs of expanding the airline industry are very real for all of us in non-monetary terms. One must add, though, that other industries should follow suit (agriculture, etc.).


What exactly do you find "great" about a company So dumbed down by present hysteria that they advertise "don't buy our products"?
Will they go on a strike with that autist Greta as well?


Wow, real classy. Already in her life 'that autist Greta' has achieved more than any of us here ever will, despite the difficulties she has had to overcome. Her name will be written somewhere as part of human history. Will yours, mine? I doubt it.

She is publicly challenging the world's most powerful groups, versus someone mocking her disability on an internet forum. Consider which you think makes a braver person?
 
AirFiero
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:21 pm

janbrubel wrote:
In Europe recently flying, especially short haul, has received a lot of criticism from environmentalist organisations. They do have a valid argument seeing that it is scientifically proven that the impact on the environment is a lot higher per mile / per pax when you fly, compared to taking a (high speed) train. Numbers aren't unanimous but no matter how you calculate it, the train is always better for the climate.

Purely practical it's another matter. That is why it surprises me that KLM is supporting this argument. It is part of their business and there are no signs that this business is threatened in any way in the next decades, besides maybe a travel tax imposed on tickets (many European governments are considering this, it's sold as caring for the environment but of course it's mostly a way to support the national bank account) and a few people consciously choosing for the more environment friendly option. Unless a massive high speed rail infrastructure upgrade would be magically realised in the next years or unless flying would be taxed so drastically high that the price advantage is completely lost (not going to happen, no politician could sell this), short haul flights aren't going to loose a lot of their popularity.

Flying at this moment is simply more practical and, more importantly, a lot cheaper, even a flying tax won't change that. Train tickets are almost always more and often a lot more expensive. There are developments towards low-cost high speed trains like Ouigo in France. The cost cutting concept however adds a lot of the hassles that are considered to make flying the less practical option, like being at the train station x time before the train departure, check in procedures, luggage limitations, ...

Next to that, the high speed rail network in Europe might seem well developed, when you want to go outside the core network or cross national borders, you're certainly not in for a more practical or faster trip. Think connections with waiting times, even switching between different rail stations in a city, commuter trains to reach your actual destination, ...

I can only assume that KLM is making this statement to try and support a climate friendly image. Still awkward. Too easy to call their bluff, they fly to Brussels and Paris. The high speed rail line between those cities is probably the best developed and most used in Europe, one of the few lines where the train is actual a better option to travel practically. I'd say time to put your money where your mouth is ...


The problem is, it is not scientifically proven that carbon dioxide is the major forcing of temperature over the last hundred years. It is assumed that it is and it is supposedly backed up by computer models projecting warming, the problem though is that the computer models have to date been spectacularly wrong. There has been no warming for 20 years. That is a scientific fact, and you can tell because there of been a number of excuses by the very same scientist trying to explain the so-called pause. Another factor is that climate sensitivity to forcing has been revised downward at least three times. Sensitivity to forcing is a major factor in the whole theory, and so far their projections have been proven to be wrong.

This carbon dioxide reduction bogeyman is turning out to be the biggest scam in human history.
 
indcwby
Posts: 318
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:23 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
This is like In n Out telling customers to become vegan. I would not be a happy camper if my company was directly working against itself.


What about the stockholders?
A319, A320, A330, A340, B717, B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, CRJ7, DC10, MD88, MD11, E145, E175
"Always remember that you fly an airplane with your head, not your hands."
 
ChasChandler
Posts: 30
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:25 pm

CALMSP wrote:
I mean, WTH is he thinking???? If he's so concerned about short distance travel, get rid of some of your planes that will then force people to take a train b/c there are no flights.

All he's doing is virtue signaling. He wants to be patted on the back for "saving the planet" from carbon emissions. The Guardian and people on that side of the political aisle eat that stuff up.
 
User avatar
ricport
Posts: 145
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:28 pm

axiom wrote:
ricport wrote:
axiom wrote:

This is a forum for factual discussion of events. Climate change is a scientific fact. Hyperbolic denialism is the new Flat Earthism.

This may be corporate virtue signaling, but this is also how social change happens in the contemporary global system. For better or worse.


So, give us some SPECIFICS. EXACTLY how many degrees does the global average temperature need to come down to prevent this man-made cataclysm? What SPECIFICALLY needs to be done to achieve this?

And is it OK that China, India, etc. are basically signing on to climate treaties and ignoring them? What should be done to punish them?


There is ample, Plain English scientific discussion readily available online. There are, moreover, several initiatives - like Project Drawdown - that analyze different pathways to reducing atmospheric change to less catastrophic levels. It is not my job to educate folks who begin from such a bad faith perspective. If you can log on to this website and post, you can use the internet to enrich yourself.

Imagine if we were having this conversation about basic aerodynamics. “PROVE that gravity exists!” You don’t see me going into a thread about engine technology or aircraft design and posting things like that, interrogating the fundamental scientific principles of a field of expertise. On the contrary, I read and enjoy the expert discussion, and I only chime in when I have value to add.

Your second set of questions is a political one, answers to which I encourage you to explore through any number of reports and writing about the geopolitics of climate governance.

Related to the thread and the BRU question: yes, of course this is connecting traffic. Nobody in their right mind would fly BRU-AMS locally. There is a DL check in counter at Bruxelles Midi station to allow for pax to check bags and travel to AMS airport directly — it seems that continuing to invest in these kinds of relationships, which make the train/plane interchange as seamless as possible, are a great way to go in terms of reducing connex over short flights.


So, in other words, you cannot provide specifics, nor are you willing to discuss the uselessness of these global treaties. Thank you for proving my point.
 
ual4life
Posts: 16
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:57 pm

Reminds me when United used to print huge one page ads in their Hemispheres magazine for “Go To Meeting” - “why deal with the hassle of air travel when you can go anywhere from the comfort of your home” or something like that. Asinine Really.

I’ll have to dig out one of my older copies to grab a snapshot.
NNVII
 
9Patch
Posts: 341
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:23 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
But, there are much more businesses outside of city centers than within city centers.

And you know this, how?
 
SRT75
Posts: 236
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:31 pm

ChasChandler wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
I mean, WTH is he thinking???? If he's so concerned about short distance travel, get rid of some of your planes that will then force people to take a train b/c there are no flights.

All he's doing is virtue signaling. He wants to be patted on the back for "saving the planet" from carbon emissions. The Guardian and people on that side of the political aisle eat that stuff up.


Exactly.
 
blockski
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:55 pm

StudiodeKadent wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
And everyone and everything needs to be refashioned so that less CO2 emissions are produced.


You're going to find a lot of people in this forum who do not accept the science behind that position.


Science has shown that anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions likely contribute to an increase in average global temperatures.

Science does not prove that "everyone and everything needs to be refashioned so that less CO2 emissions are produced."

It is one thing to accept the existence of anthropogenic global warming.

It is an entirely different thing to believe the AGW requires a radical reformation in our societies and lifestyles in order to avert catastrophic consequences.

------

As I see it this move is cynical. For one, a lot of pro-environment people tend to be relatively wealthy, so KLM's advertisement here can be seen as signalling to a relatively well-off consumer base. "Buy from us. We share your values. Just like when you buy organic fairtrade coffee."

Another way to interpret the ad is that it encourages people to take less short-haul air travel... thus disproportionately reducing the profitability of low-cost carriers (as LCC models are mostly suited for short-haul flights), and in turn reducing competition. And this wouldn't surprise me. Environmentalism has ALWAYS been an enemy of low-cost mass production, and has ALWAYS resulted in more expensive consumer products.


We do, in fact, have scientific evidence of what's necessary to avert catastrophe. For example, the IPCC's most recent report looked into what would be require to limit warming to 1.5 deg C; the report looked at several pathways to that goal.

https://www.ipcc.ch/sr15/graphics/#cid_603

In those pathways, emissions in 2030 need to drop by ~50% from 2010 levels, and by 2050 they need to drop by 91-97%. And the timing matters: the longer we go without dropping emissions, the steeper the drop needs to be to avoid the severe impacts that will come with 1.5 degrees of warming (to say nothing of the trajectory we're on for much higher warming).

They also look at an 'overshoot' scenario where we adopt net-zero technologies later. That scenario has essentially no growth in carbon emissions by 2030, but then a massive decrease after 2030 and net-negative emissions via the invention of technology that doesn't yet exist on any economical scale to remove carbon from the atmosphere.

In short, all of the scenarios required to meet the goal absolutely require radical reformation of our societies and lifestyles. Perhaps new technology can change things, but that technology doesn't yet exist and the timeline is simply too rapid to ignore.

I'm not suggesting that KLM is pure in their motives here, but it's quite clear that if we address climate change, that means that aviation must radically change (along with lots of other sectors). If we don't address climate change, we're facing radical changes anyway. I also wouldn't discount the fact that the Netherlands is so susceptible to flooding, and the entire country is at risk.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1226
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:01 pm

9Patch wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
But, there are much more businesses outside of city centers than within city centers.

And you know this, how?

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