birdbrainz
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:14 pm

If KLM wants people to take the train more, all they need to do is stop flying competing flights. Boom. Problem solved.

Unless, of course, there's money to be made by flying them, which is why they're flying them in first place.

KLM is trying to earn brownie points by advocating the the train knowing full well many will still prefer flying. Even AMS-HAM is 5 hrs by train.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
Eikie
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:17 pm

9Patch wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
But, there are much more businesses outside of city centers than within city centers.

And you know this, how?

Based on the Netherlands, there are a lot of industrial areas just outside of cities of even along a highway, with no city in sight.

In the few bigger cities those areas usually have their own railstation, but that's different for the rest of the country.

Citycentres are usually shops and restaurants, which have a fraction of the employed people those bigger industries employ.
 
Gangurru
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:46 pm

KLM’s call to action could be in response to issues beyond climate change. Aviation also contributes to over tourism. Amsterdam is one city that has been particularly affected by this phenomena.

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/07/63201277 ... y-tourists

It seems that the Netherlands is being flooded by tourists and, because much of it is below sea level, it is highly vulnerable to being flooded by rising oceans. KLM is at the heart of both issues.

From my perspective, asking for less flying seems like a pragmatic and rational response.
 
9Patch
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:54 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
9Patch wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
But, there are much more businesses outside of city centers than within city centers.

And you know this, how?

Observation of life and reality in Europe.

In the US the city center is called the 'central business district' for a reason.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:58 pm

sseim wrote:
That's ridiculous. That would be like Amazon telling people to stop shopping online.

No. That would be like telling people to think a little more before shopping online, thereby reducing the amount of returned purchases. Which would be better for both the business and the environment.
 
Planetalk
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 pm

AirFiero wrote:
janbrubel wrote:
In Europe recently flying, especially short haul, has received a lot of criticism from environmentalist organisations. They do have a valid argument seeing that it is scientifically proven that the impact on the environment is a lot higher per mile / per pax when you fly, compared to taking a (high speed) train. Numbers aren't unanimous but no matter how you calculate it, the train is always better for the climate.

Purely practical it's another matter. That is why it surprises me that KLM is supporting this argument. It is part of their business and there are no signs that this business is threatened in any way in the next decades, besides maybe a travel tax imposed on tickets (many European governments are considering this, it's sold as caring for the environment but of course it's mostly a way to support the national bank account) and a few people consciously choosing for the more environment friendly option. Unless a massive high speed rail infrastructure upgrade would be magically realised in the next years or unless flying would be taxed so drastically high that the price advantage is completely lost (not going to happen, no politician could sell this), short haul flights aren't going to loose a lot of their popularity.

Flying at this moment is simply more practical and, more importantly, a lot cheaper, even a flying tax won't change that. Train tickets are almost always more and often a lot more expensive. There are developments towards low-cost high speed trains like Ouigo in France. The cost cutting concept however adds a lot of the hassles that are considered to make flying the less practical option, like being at the train station x time before the train departure, check in procedures, luggage limitations, ...

Next to that, the high speed rail network in Europe might seem well developed, when you want to go outside the core network or cross national borders, you're certainly not in for a more practical or faster trip. Think connections with waiting times, even switching between different rail stations in a city, commuter trains to reach your actual destination, ...

I can only assume that KLM is making this statement to try and support a climate friendly image. Still awkward. Too easy to call their bluff, they fly to Brussels and Paris. The high speed rail line between those cities is probably the best developed and most used in Europe, one of the few lines where the train is actual a better option to travel practically. I'd say time to put your money where your mouth is ...


The problem is, it is not scientifically proven that carbon dioxide is the major forcing of temperature over the last hundred years. It is assumed that it is and it is supposedly backed up by computer models projecting warming, the problem though is that the computer models have to date been spectacularly wrong. There has been no warming for 20 years. That is a scientific fact, and you can tell because there of been a number of excuses by the very same scientist trying to explain the so-called pause. Another factor is that climate sensitivity to forcing has been revised downward at least three times. Sensitivity to forcing is a major factor in the whole theory, and so far their projections have been proven to be wrong.

This carbon dioxide reduction bogeyman is turning out to be the biggest scam in human history.


Please don't state your opinion as 'scientific fact'.

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/c ... -stop-1998
 
WayexTDI
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:14 pm

9Patch wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
9Patch wrote:
And you know this, how?

Observation of life and reality in Europe.

In the US the city center is called the 'central business district' for a reason.

OK, and? We're talking about Europe here.
Same player, try again.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:16 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
This is like In n Out telling customers to become vegan. I would not be a happy camper if my company was directly working against itself.

No. This is like telling customers to eat a few burgers less each year, thereby reducing the amount of energy needed to produce the meat product. Don't you think the burgers might taste even better when consumed more moderately? And maybe customers would be willing to pay a little more for each burger. Which would be better for both the business and the environment.
 
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iseeyyc
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:19 pm

andymartin wrote:
This is corporate virtue signalling of the highest order. Today it's the myth of climate change, tomorrow it will be something else.


About 5-6 other posts in support of your position have been deleted from the thread. Go figure.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:45 pm

ME720 wrote:
Had they been serious they could have taken this opportunity to announce axing their ridiculous AMS-BRU route. 1h30’ by train between both cities.

Why would a few daily flights be ridiculous? It's all a matter of perspective. What I personally find ridiculous are 8,5 million cars in my country of 17 million people. A lot of these cars are used for short trips and very short trips. In my neighbourhood parents even drive their children to school, which is a few hundred meters away. And they don't drive on to their work, no they return home and park the car.

The train between Amsterdam and Brussels takes two to three hours, depending on the type of train you take. But it's not 1,5 hours. I like people having a choice instead of being 'forced' to use a train. Connecting airside can be much less hassle than changing from a plane to a train.

SKAirbus wrote:
Firstly, KLM need to lead by example and get rid of their ridiculous and unnecessary AMS-BRU route - a distance of 158km / 98 miles as the crow flies. Instead they should work with the train operators to add their flight numbers to train departures just like AF do between CDG and Brussel Zuid station.

The trains already have flight numbers. It is possible to start your journey by train in Amsterdam or Brussels and change to an aircraft at either of the two airports.
 
9Patch
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:01 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
9Patch wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Observation of life and reality in Europe.

In the US the city center is called the 'central business district' for a reason.

OK, and? We're talking about Europe here.
Same player, try again.

I think a320afan pretty much destroyed your argument:

But you still have to go from the airport to your final destination, which in most cases is probably a further journey than from a main train station. Most public transport from the airports is mainly geared to get to the city centres anyway.

I flew into Paris last week and it takes a good part of an hour to take the train in to the city centre, and then if I was going somewhere without a direct airport link I would be looking at making another journey from the city centre, if I could have taken the train straight to the central station then any links to other areas would be easily accessible at higher frequency’s and less cost than from an airport station (if you can go from there at all)

But nice try...
 
Planetalk
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:13 pm

iseeyyc wrote:
andymartin wrote:
This is corporate virtue signalling of the highest order. Today it's the myth of climate change, tomorrow it will be something else.


About 5-6 other posts in support of your position have been deleted from the thread. Go figure.


To rid you of another conspiracy theory to believe in, a lot of posts in opposition to their position have also been deleted. Go figure.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:16 pm

axiom wrote:
Related to the thread and the BRU question: yes, of course this is connecting traffic. Nobody in their right mind would fly BRU-AMS locally.

I would. A few weeks ago I actually booked a return ticket from Amsterdam to Brussels. I like to travel by plane and I am looking forward to this trip. Is there a better way to start your day than by taking a short low level flight and looking down at traffic jams? And of course the ever changing landscape with its towns, villages, farmland, rivers and islands?

I must admit my booking was partly triggered by the 'demand' of one of our political parties to forbid this flight, in order to reduce the environmental impact of aviation. I remember KLM operating even shorter flights to Antwerp and Eindhoven. Those routes have been axed, Brussels might be next.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:17 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
This is like In n Out telling customers to become vegan. I would not be a happy camper if my company was directly working against itself.

No. This is like telling customers to eat a few burgers less each year, thereby reducing the amount of energy needed to produce the meat product. Don't you think the burgers might taste even better when consumed more moderately? And maybe customers would be willing to pay a little more for each burger. Which would be better for both the business and the environment.


Fewer burgers sold equals less money made by the company which is the whole reason to have a business rather than being "woke". The CEO has the direct responsibility to make the most money as possible for the company which he is doing the opposite of and just gave competitors the soundbite of the century.

I am a 100 percent believer in climate change but a CEO advocating against his companies product for social media points is the stupidest idea ever (It's business 101)
 
WayexTDI
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:22 pm

9Patch wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
9Patch wrote:
In the US the city center is called the 'central business district' for a reason.

OK, and? We're talking about Europe here.
Same player, try again.

I think a320afan pretty much destroyed your argument:

But you still have to go from the airport to your final destination, which in most cases is probably a further journey than from a main train station. Most public transport from the airports is mainly geared to get to the city centres anyway.

I flew into Paris last week and it takes a good part of an hour to take the train in to the city centre, and then if I was going somewhere without a direct airport link I would be looking at making another journey from the city centre, if I could have taken the train straight to the central station then any links to other areas would be easily accessible at higher frequency’s and less cost than from an airport station (if you can go from there at all)

But nice try...

Didn't destroy the argument at all.
Actually, his argument can be taken exactly as is and spun the other way arond.

Bottom line is that there is no "one size fits all" answer. Many businesses are NOT in the city centers, thus far from the main train stations. Depending on where you start and where you end, train or plane are better:
- say you live downtown Bordeaux and need to go to an office downtown Paris: train makes sense 100%;
- but, if you live in the suburbs of the same Bordeaux (say in the Southwest area of Bordeaux suburbs) and need to go to Parc des Expositions de Villepinte (suburbs of Paris): plane makes much more sense as it's a major pain to reach downtown Bordeaux during rush hours and let's not even talk about Paris.
This is ONE example; there are many.

Again, pushing the train as THE best idea ever since sliced bread is moronic; everyone has unique situations which will steer them towards plane or train.
 
kimimm19
Posts: 351
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:44 pm

Gangurru wrote:
KLM’s call to action could be in response to issues beyond climate change. Aviation also contributes to over tourism. Amsterdam is one city that has been particularly affected by this phenomena.

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/07/63201277 ... y-tourists

It seems that the Netherlands is being flooded by tourists and, because much of it is below sea level, it is highly vulnerable to being flooded by rising oceans. KLM is at the heart of both issues.

From my perspective, asking for less flying seems like a pragmatic and rational response.


It's ok, Amsterdam and their plans for the red light district abolishment should take care of the over tourism :lol:
 
Heinkel
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:00 pm

VSMUT wrote:
It makes good sense, you know. Exactly how profitable do you think those short flights are? Amsterdam is slot constrained and the pilot shortage is looming. Better to spend your resources on the big money earners. And if KLM gets to sell the train ticket, why not?


Decades ago, when I was a student, there was a daily KLM freight flight from HAJ to AMS and return. The strange thing was, that this flight was done by a truck on the Autobahn.

The truck was equipped with a cargo floor for a/c pallets, like a real freight a/c and the "flight" has had a real KLM flight number. And big KLM-markings on the side.

So nothing new with KLM selling surface transport.
 
LH658
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:28 pm

No offense, but that's nice maybe people think he has a emotional appeal for the environment, and will encourage people to fly KLM more due to they love the CEO personal concern.

Another thing is maybe AMS is at max in capacity, that KLM will love to add more long haul destinations, and drop some nearby destinations.

Most ethical companies usually last long.
 
ikramerica
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:46 pm

spinotter wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
a320fan wrote:
Train travel is much more convenient up to a 3 hour trip maybe even 4. You go from city centre to city centre, the process is a lot more relaxed, no hassle with security, waiting around terminals, lining up to check in, security, board flights, waiting for any bags, transport into and from city centre. I've done a few month long backpacking trips around Europe and if the train can get me there within 4 hours I won't even consider a flight unless it's significantly cheaper (greater than 50%)

As if most businesses were located in city centers...


In Europe this is more often the case. Listen people, either we are serious about the measures we adopt to lessen the harmful effects of travel, or we are not. I know it's a heartbreaking realization on a website like a.net, but human beings, do you want your descendants to live and prosper or not? If so, there are a lot of current habits which need to be changed, including LESS travel altogether - less airline travel, less train travel, less automobile travel, more bicycling and more walking - and for people to fashion their lives so that MUCH less travel is necessary.

Thanks for the lecture.

You define a problem based on your set of criteria, then you suggest an unworkable solution, plus a guilt trip.

What if you knew a problem would happening in the future, yet you did nothing to prepare for it. Rather than adapt and modify your infrastructure to accommodate the upcoming problem, you bury your head in the sand and tell everyone to repent. It's like praying for no earthquakes rather than installing shear walls and uplift prevention hardware.

This is what global warming doomsayers do. YOU MUST CHANGE YOUR BEHAVIOR! Well, what if you can't get the other 4-6 billion people to do that (you can't)? Wouldn't a better course of action be to harden your infrastructure against rising temperatures and sea levels? Find more ways to produce energy to support life rather than claiming you can somehow turn everything off and still survive? Concentrate on ways to reduce other forms of pollution, on ways to increase food yields and better harness clean water.

I want a future for my kids. Just not the same future you seem to want. I want a future where we deal with increased temperatures in a rational way, not one where we pretend that we can change the actions of 6 (7) billion people in such a meaningful way that we can reverse warming. In my world, 10,000 people won't die due to a heat wave and no AC (see the EU a few years back). In your world, totalitarian regimes will be required to enforce restrictions for the greater good, where every year more freedoms are taken away to save us all. I don't want my kids living in your world.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:56 pm

afgeneral wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
It makes good sense, you know. Exactly how profitable do you think those short flights are? Amsterdam is slot constrained and the pilot shortage is looming. Better to spend your resources on the big money earners. And if KLM gets to sell the train ticket, why not?

Brussels, Düsseldorf, Bremen, Hamburg, Köln and even Paris make sense on high speed railways from Amsterdam.


And here we´ve the real argument for KLM´s call. A lot of slots and resources are wasted on these short flights for mostly connecting passengers. As I´m living around Bremen I´m perfectly aware how many people connect, and how many only fly AMS-BRE or BRE-AMS. Tiny percentage. Motivating these people to travel to Amsterdam and fly from there is certainly of higher value to KLM than operating a pure (likely little profitable) feeder. Whilst Bremen is due to geography and direct [train] connections not a good example where such a switch makes sense, DUS, PAR, CGN and some other destinations make a lot of sense to offer a rail feeder.

In other words - at least from my point of view - KLM is just applying common business sense by asking a specific group of passengers to think about their mode of travel.


If that was the case why didn't they start by building a true train feeder network by engaging rail companies to create true airline - train ticket? Baggage handling, delay / cancellation coverage, sterile areas / security, aligned schedules and so on. Today if you take a long train journey to / from the airport the passenger bears the risk of missed flights / trains due to delays. And trail delays are not uncommon.

I would not risk having less than 4-5 hours buffer between a train arrival time and long haul departure from AMS. Also, night trains are being phased out in Europe so arriving late at AMS is kind of useless.

The Dutch railways are the most congested in Europe; currently there is no capacity for a true feeder network. KLM has consistently called for investments in high-speed rail infrastructure to neigboring countries. In that sense this add is nothing new, KLM has even participated in a high-speed train company already more than a decade ago.

SKAirbus wrote:
I'm cynical about this. Seems like a marketing ploy, trying to get people to think "oh, look KLM care about the environment so let's fly with them".

Firstly, KLM need to lead by example and get rid of their ridiculous and unnecessary AMS-BRU route - a distance of 158km / 98 miles as the crow flies. Instead they should work with the train operators to add their flight numbers to train departures just like AF do between CDG and Brussel Zuid station.

With all the airport formalities, check-in etc, if you are flying with KLM from BRU to say JFK via AMS then there should be no time difference in taking the train.

KLM has said it will ditch the BRU route as they've already done with national routes when that rail-line becomes more reliable, currently there are many trains but reliability is bad.
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:44 pm

afgeneral wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
It makes good sense, you know. Exactly how profitable do you think those short flights are? Amsterdam is slot constrained and the pilot shortage is looming. Better to spend your resources on the big money earners. And if KLM gets to sell the train ticket, why not?

Brussels, Düsseldorf, Bremen, Hamburg, Köln and even Paris make sense on high speed railways from Amsterdam.


And here we´ve the real argument for KLM´s call. A lot of slots and resources are wasted on these short flights for mostly connecting passengers. As I´m living around Bremen I´m perfectly aware how many people connect, and how many only fly AMS-BRE or BRE-AMS. Tiny percentage. Motivating these people to travel to Amsterdam and fly from there is certainly of higher value to KLM than operating a pure (likely little profitable) feeder. Whilst Bremen is due to geography and direct [train] connections not a good example where such a switch makes sense, DUS, PAR, CGN and some other destinations make a lot of sense to offer a rail feeder.

In other words - at least from my point of view - KLM is just applying common business sense by asking a specific group of passengers to think about their mode of travel.


If that was the case why didn't they start by building a true train feeder network by engaging rail companies to create true airline - train ticket? Baggage handling, delay / cancellation coverage, sterile areas / security, aligned schedules and so on. Today if you take a long train journey to / from the airport the passenger bears the risk of missed flights / trains due to delays. And trail delays are not uncommon.

I would not risk having less than 4-5 hours buffer between a train arrival time and long haul departure from AMS. Also, night trains are being phased out in Europe so arriving late at AMS is kind of useless.


What do you think this is, if not a call for rail investment? Remember, railways are owned and often run by national states in Europe, not a private company. They need to call the politicians and voters.

Lufthansa already puts flight codes on some ICE trains. Typically DB will set a carriage or 2 aside for Lufthansa reservations. Köln is served this way from Frankfurt.

Night trains are making a massive resurgence these days.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:25 am

WeatherPilot wrote:
As an American what are trains?

Some mode of transportation on a set of tracks that is only reliable if you're making a commute to or from work. For longer distance travel, good luck with reliable service. The train may depart on time, but by the 12th hour into the 20-hour trip, it'll be three hours late. Amtrak, I'm looking at you.
Captain Kevin
 
9Patch
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:50 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Bottom line is that there is no "one size fits all" answer.

Precisely.

Again, pushing the train as THE best idea ever since sliced bread is moronic; everyone has unique situations which will steer them towards plane or train.

Concocting straw man arguments is moronic, but I agree with the second clause of the sentence.
 
AMALH747430
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:21 am

Europe is playing a dangerous game here. We all need to be environmentally conscious but buying into this "flight shaming" drama is a bridge too far.

First off, commercial aviation has made great strides in terms of efficiency and the carbon footprint. Jet engines are getting more efficient all the time. All airlines around the world also seem to be in the process of up gauging most of their equipment. 50 seat jets are becoming rarer. In the US, we are seeing main line jets supplant regional jets to small and medium-sized cities. I don't understand why these people are vilifying commercial aviation, it would appear to me that two people flying around in a corporate jet are the problem. You won't see this problem attacked though, because it will hit the politicians and their fat cat donors too hard.

Second, I don't believe trains are the panacea that the greens would have us believe. First off, they require very inflexible infrastructure. The beauty of aviation is demand can be moved around from city to city fairly easily when demand changes. Once you build a train track it's there. If you need to increase service, you build a dual track. When demand to that location decreases, you have to build another set of tracks to where the demand has moved to. Meanwhile, you've invested all this money in train tracks that are no longer fully utilized. I understand the airports have environmental impact to. However, you're talkin about several hundred feet of runway and some buildings. Train tracks cut through, and disrupt all kinds of ecosystems too. They also must stretch for thousands and thousands of miles. If a train is completely full, and if it's running on tracks that have already been built, then yes the train is a much more efficient mode of transportation. This isn't always the case though, and again, the infrastructure is very inflexible. This also works well for more densely populated areas in Europe. It doesn't work so well in the heartland of the United States. One also has to consider the fact that if regulation forces people from planes to trains more tracks will have to be built. This will require wider and wider right-of-ways that cause their own environmental problems.

Finally, Europe may find that it becomes uncompetitive. If it becomes more expensive to do business in Europe due to draconian environmental regulations. Folks may also elect to spend their tourism dollars elsewhere. Europe is also much more vulnerable to TK and the ME3 than the US 3 are. If it becomes too expensive for the US 3 to transport passengers on their European joint venture partners, they may re-examine the agreements. UA may cozy up to TK and shift some of their onward connection traffic there vs LH. Turkey, the UAE and Qatar a very pro aviation policies. China and India aren't going to slow things down just because Europe wants to. Europe will be cutting off its nose to spite its face.
 
c933103
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:56 am

SCQ83 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
It makes good sense, you know. Exactly how profitable do you think those short flights are? Amsterdam is slot constrained and the pilot shortage is looming. Better to spend your resources on the big money earners. And if KLM gets to sell the train ticket, why not?

Brussels, Düsseldorf, Bremen, Hamburg, Köln and even Paris make sense on high speed railways from Amsterdam.


Exactly. If those passengers on services from BRU or DUS to AMS to connect on KLM's network (KLM does not serve CGN anymore) were to use the train to Schiphol Airport railway station, KLM could use those valuable slots and planes to increase existing routes or open new ones.

There are trains from Cologne to AMS instead of flights, however are they still offered by KLM as a connection? If not why not?
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
c933103
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:04 am

Blerg wrote:
It's pretty idiotic to attack the aviation industry which has done so much to reduce emissions.

Because, despite all the efforts, carbon emission of high speed train are still 80%-90% less than flights.
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:12 am

c933103 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
It makes good sense, you know. Exactly how profitable do you think those short flights are? Amsterdam is slot constrained and the pilot shortage is looming. Better to spend your resources on the big money earners. And if KLM gets to sell the train ticket, why not?

Brussels, Düsseldorf, Bremen, Hamburg, Köln and even Paris make sense on high speed railways from Amsterdam.


Exactly. If those passengers on services from BRU or DUS to AMS to connect on KLM's network (KLM does not serve CGN anymore) were to use the train to Schiphol Airport railway station, KLM could use those valuable slots and planes to increase existing routes or open new ones.

There are trains from Cologne to AMS instead of flights, however are they still offered by KLM as a connection? If not why not?

They aren't going to the airport. If you want trains as an alternative for connecting flights there needs to be a direct connection to the airport.
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:17 am

Jetty wrote:
c933103 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:

Exactly. If those passengers on services from BRU or DUS to AMS to connect on KLM's network (KLM does not serve CGN anymore) were to use the train to Schiphol Airport railway station, KLM could use those valuable slots and planes to increase existing routes or open new ones.

There are trains from Cologne to AMS instead of flights, however are they still offered by KLM as a connection? If not why not?

They aren't going to the airport. If you want trains as an alternative for connecting flights there needs to be a direct connection to the airport.


It also takes anywhere from 3:18 to 4:10. The proper HSR doesn't run between Köln and Amsterdam.
 
c933103
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:11 am

AMALH747430 wrote:
Europe is playing a dangerous game here. We all need to be environmentally conscious but buying into this "flight shaming" drama is a bridge too far.

First off, commercial aviation has made great strides in terms of efficiency and the carbon footprint. Jet engines are getting more efficient all the time. All airlines around the world also seem to be in the process of up gauging most of their equipment. 50 seat jets are becoming rarer. In the US, we are seeing main line jets supplant regional jets to small and medium-sized cities. I don't understand why these people are vilifying commercial aviation, it would appear to me that two people flying around in a corporate jet are the problem. You won't see this problem attacked though, because it will hit the politicians and their fat cat donors too hard.

Despite all the improvements, from JR's data, flights are still about six times less efficient than regular high speed train
Second, I don't believe trains are the panacea that the greens would have us believe. First off, they require very inflexible infrastructure. The beauty of aviation is demand can be moved around from city to city fairly easily when demand changes. Once you build a train track it's there. If you need to increase service, you build a dual track. When demand to that location decreases, you have to build another set of tracks to where the demand has moved to. Meanwhile, you've invested all this money in train tracks that are no longer fully utilized. I understand the airports have environmental impact to. However, you're talkin about several hundred feet of runway and some buildings. Train tracks cut through, and disrupt all kinds of ecosystems too. They also must stretch for thousands and thousands of miles. If a train is completely full, and if it's running on tracks that have already been built, then yes the train is a much more efficient mode of transportation. This isn't always the case though, and again, the infrastructure is very inflexible. This also works well for more densely populated areas in Europe. It doesn't work so well in the heartland of the United States. One also has to consider the fact that if regulation forces people from planes to trains more tracks will have to be built. This will require wider and wider right-of-ways that cause their own environmental problems.

Train tracks are already everywhere. As for "it doesn't work so well in the heartland of the United States", no one is talking about that here.

Finally, Europe may find that it becomes uncompetitive. If it becomes more expensive to do business in Europe due to draconian environmental regulations. Folks may also elect to spend their tourism dollars elsewhere. Europe is also much more vulnerable to TK and the ME3 than the US 3 are. If it becomes too expensive for the US 3 to transport passengers on their European joint venture partners, they may re-examine the agreements. UA may cozy up to TK and shift some of their onward connection traffic there vs LH. Turkey, the UAE and Qatar a very pro aviation policies. China and India aren't going to slow things down just because Europe wants to. Europe will be cutting off its nose to spite its face.

Turkey and ME3 are focusing on long haul travel. China and India are also investing heavily into rail.
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Blerg
Posts: 2017
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:53 am

c933103 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
It's pretty idiotic to attack the aviation industry which has done so much to reduce emissions.

Because, despite all the efforts, carbon emission of high speed train are still 80%-90% less than flights.


And where does the electricity for trains comes from? From what I've read 82% of NL electricity comes from fossil fuels.
 
Blerg
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:58 am

[/quote]Turkey and ME3 are focusing on long haul travel. China and India are also investing heavily into rail.[/quote]

They are? I think they are concentrating on all markets. Just look at the number of short flights they operate, TK regularly sends the A321 to SKG (45 minutes) and the B77W to ATH (01.20). On the other hand, airlines such as Qatar, Air Arabia and flydubai operate numerous shorthaul flights. So I wouldn't they are exclusively focused on long-haul.
 
c933103
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:25 am

Blerg wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
It's pretty idiotic to attack the aviation industry which has done so much to reduce emissions.

Because, despite all the efforts, carbon emission of high speed train are still 80%-90% less than flights.


And where does the electricity for trains comes from? From what I've read 82% of NL electricity comes from fossil fuels.

Aircraft just consume so much more power than trains (see my other reply above) that even if your trains are powered by fossil fuel sourced electricity or even when you are riding a diesel train, it's still going to emit much less pollutant than planes.
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
Blerg
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:30 am

c933103 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Because, despite all the efforts, carbon emission of high speed train are still 80%-90% less than flights.


And where does the electricity for trains comes from? From what I've read 82% of NL electricity comes from fossil fuels.

Aircraft just consume so much more power than trains (see my other reply above) that even if your trains are powered by fossil fuel sourced electricity or even when you are riding a diesel train, it's still going to emit much less pollutant than planes.


Maybe the train itself is emitting less but at the same time how much fossil fuel is needed to generate the electricity it needs to make a run between two cities such as Amsterdam and Brussels? My point is that trains (unless they run on solar power) are not that green either. It's much wiser to invest into biofuels that can be used in aviation rather than to call for a jihad on aviation.

And anyway, don't train electricity lines need to be 'functioning' all the time? What I mean do they have to be on even when trains are not passing or do they shut them down when there are no trains passing?
 
c933103
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:46 am

Blerg wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

And where does the electricity for trains comes from? From what I've read 82% of NL electricity comes from fossil fuels.

Aircraft just consume so much more power than trains (see my other reply above) that even if your trains are powered by fossil fuel sourced electricity or even when you are riding a diesel train, it's still going to emit much less pollutant than planes.


Maybe the train itself is emitting less but at the same time how much fossil fuel is needed to generate the electricity it needs to make a run between two cities such as Amsterdam and Brussels? My point is that trains (unless they run on solar power) are not that green either. It's much wiser to invest into biofuels that can be used in aviation rather than to call for a jihad on aviation.

And anyway, don't train electricity lines need to be 'functioning' all the time? What I mean do they have to be on even when trains are not passing or do they shut them down when there are no trains passing?

All the figures cited above have already taken into account the emission at power plant used to generate electricity that are necessary for those trains to run.
Train electric line are connected to power grid in a way similar to how individual household are connected to the power grid. You can picture electric consumption of each trains running on the electrified train network as home appliance you plugged into your home electric grid. Your question is like asking whether one would shut down their home electric grid when they aren't using those electric appliance in their house.
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
Blerg
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:49 am

c933103 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aircraft just consume so much more power than trains (see my other reply above) that even if your trains are powered by fossil fuel sourced electricity or even when you are riding a diesel train, it's still going to emit much less pollutant than planes.


Maybe the train itself is emitting less but at the same time how much fossil fuel is needed to generate the electricity it needs to make a run between two cities such as Amsterdam and Brussels? My point is that trains (unless they run on solar power) are not that green either. It's much wiser to invest into biofuels that can be used in aviation rather than to call for a jihad on aviation.

And anyway, don't train electricity lines need to be 'functioning' all the time? What I mean do they have to be on even when trains are not passing or do they shut them down when there are no trains passing?

All the figures cited above have already taken into account the emission at power plant used to generate electricity that are necessary for those trains to run.
Train electric line are connected to power grid in a way similar to how individual household are connected to the power grid. You can picture electric consumption of each trains running on the electrified train network as home appliance you plugged into your home electric grid. Your question is like asking whether one would shut down their home electric grid when they aren't using those electric appliance in their house.


Do you have a source where I can read more on this?
 
c933103
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:07 am

Blerg wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Maybe the train itself is emitting less but at the same time how much fossil fuel is needed to generate the electricity it needs to make a run between two cities such as Amsterdam and Brussels? My point is that trains (unless they run on solar power) are not that green either. It's much wiser to invest into biofuels that can be used in aviation rather than to call for a jihad on aviation.

And anyway, don't train electricity lines need to be 'functioning' all the time? What I mean do they have to be on even when trains are not passing or do they shut them down when there are no trains passing?

All the figures cited above have already taken into account the emission at power plant used to generate electricity that are necessary for those trains to run.
Train electric line are connected to power grid in a way similar to how individual household are connected to the power grid. You can picture electric consumption of each trains running on the electrified train network as home appliance you plugged into your home electric grid. Your question is like asking whether one would shut down their home electric grid when they aren't using those electric appliance in their house.


Do you have a source where I can read more on this?

You can check the data in this research report: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ean_Routes
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HugoJunkers
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:18 am

Lingon wrote:
I like the statement in the article "The airline itself is using 57 times more biofuel than in 2011" in the article. It says absolutely nothing. They could have used 1 kg in 2011 and 57 kg this year...

Of course they are doing green-washing, they do not like to be the big bad wolf here - maybe people will elect politicians who will impose draconian taxes on KLM. That said, I also agree with the idea they want to draw connections to AMS with a train leg in the journey.


Biofuel green washing. Pretty much just PR exercise. I remember how EU subsidised biofuel lead to thousands of hectares of orang outan inhabited rainforest being felled to make biofuel for the EU subsidy.

Most of the claims of anthropogenic temperature increases use 1970 as the datum year. That was one of the coldest years ever, which is why they use it.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1983
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:23 am

sseim wrote:
That's ridiculous. That would be like Amazon telling people to stop shopping online.


Well, not quite. He counts that the audience of these commercials would be VFR one - the one airlines don't make money on, and high-yielding business traffic will remain.
 
Chasensfo
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:41 am

Connections at AMS are a huge part of KLM's market. Maybe someone who lives in AMS has no desire to deal with the airport to get to BRU for example, but I'm sure the person who already came off another flight and is at the airport would much rather hop on the next flight than leave the airport and get on a train. Look up how many local pax at SFO fly to FAT, SMF, STS, ect and it is next to nothing. Yet, the flights fill up. If KLM drops BRU, people won't say "Well I'm still going to fly SFO-AMS on KLM then take the train", they'll simply connect elsewhere on another carrier.
 
Heinkel
Posts: 221
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:54 am

Blerg wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Maybe the train itself is emitting less but at the same time how much fossil fuel is needed to generate the electricity it needs to make a run between two cities such as Amsterdam and Brussels? My point is that trains (unless they run on solar power) are not that green either. It's much wiser to invest into biofuels that can be used in aviation rather than to call for a jihad on aviation.

And anyway, don't train electricity lines need to be 'functioning' all the time? What I mean do they have to be on even when trains are not passing or do they shut them down when there are no trains passing?

All the figures cited above have already taken into account the emission at power plant used to generate electricity that are necessary for those trains to run.
Train electric line are connected to power grid in a way similar to how individual household are connected to the power grid. You can picture electric consumption of each trains running on the electrified train network as home appliance you plugged into your home electric grid. Your question is like asking whether one would shut down their home electric grid when they aren't using those electric appliance in their house.


Do you have a source where I can read more on this?


What about a good physics schoolbook? Wikipedia can help, too.
 
c933103
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:01 am

Chasensfo wrote:
Connections at AMS are a huge part of KLM's market. Maybe someone who lives in AMS has no desire to deal with the airport to get to BRU for example, but I'm sure the person who already came off another flight and is at the airport would much rather hop on the next flight than leave the airport and get on a train. Look up how many local pax at SFO fly to FAT, SMF, STS, ect and it is next to nothing. Yet, the flights fill up. If KLM drops BRU, people won't say "Well I'm still going to fly SFO-AMS on KLM then take the train", they'll simply connect elsewhere on another carrier.

KLM already offer air-rail through ticket option so I am sure they already have the numbers on consumer preference in such scenario
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aviationlover7
Posts: 42
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:16 am

AntonioMartin wrote:
Reverse psychology perhaps? Trying to convince Hollanders that KLM cares about the environment??


Spot on! reverse psychology is not uncommon in other industries (e.g. retail - Patagonia clothing) but KLM seems to be the pioneer within the commercial aviation industry. I believe this is mostly aiming the Northern Europe market (KLM's stronghold) where the anti-aviation movement is on the rise (e.g. #flygskam movement in Sweden) and eventually it might spread to other parts of the World.
 
Blerg
Posts: 2017
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:50 am

Heinkel wrote:
Blerg wrote:
c933103 wrote:
All the figures cited above have already taken into account the emission at power plant used to generate electricity that are necessary for those trains to run.
Train electric line are connected to power grid in a way similar to how individual household are connected to the power grid. You can picture electric consumption of each trains running on the electrified train network as home appliance you plugged into your home electric grid. Your question is like asking whether one would shut down their home electric grid when they aren't using those electric appliance in their house.


Do you have a source where I can read more on this?


What about a good physics schoolbook? Wikipedia can help, too.


What a bad attempt at being funny.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 331
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:17 am

VSMUT wrote:
It also takes anywhere from 3:18 to 4:10. The proper HSR doesn't run between Köln and Amsterdam.


What the heck are you talking about? I took an ICE train from Cologne to Brussels a few months ago. There were also ICE trains going to Amsterdam. And I personally took one about two years ago.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:21 am

c933103 wrote:
Turkey and ME3 are focusing on long haul travel.


I wouldn't call the EK's bread-and-butter flights to the subcontinent "long haul travel." And TK flies to nearly every city of any size in Eastern Europe (not to mention its domestic catchment).
 
bennett123
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:28 am

In comparing journey times people forget two points.

1. At least as many destinations will be closer to the CBD than the Airport.

2. If you have a ticket you can arrive at the Station 5 minutes before departure. Also getting from your seat to the exit is quicker by train.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:04 am

SCQ83 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
It makes good sense, you know. Exactly how profitable do you think those short flights are? Amsterdam is slot constrained and the pilot shortage is looming. Better to spend your resources on the big money earners. And if KLM gets to sell the train ticket, why not?

Brussels, Düsseldorf, Bremen, Hamburg, Köln and even Paris make sense on high speed railways from Amsterdam.


Exactly. If those passengers on services from BRU or DUS to AMS to connect on KLM's network (KLM does not serve CGN anymore) were to use the train to Schiphol Airport railway station, KLM could use those valuable slots and planes to increase existing routes or open new ones.

I often travel from Hanover via Amsterdam to China and Indonesia. The flight from HAJ to AMS is short but there is no reasonable alternative by train.
ikramerica wrote:
spinotter wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
As if most businesses were located in city centers...


In Europe this is more often the case. Listen people, either we are serious about the measures we adopt to lessen the harmful effects of travel, or we are not. I know it's a heartbreaking realization on a website like a.net, but human beings, do you want your descendants to live and prosper or not? If so, there are a lot of current habits which need to be changed, including LESS travel altogether - less airline travel, less train travel, less automobile travel, more bicycling and more walking - and for people to fashion their lives so that MUCH less travel is necessary.

YOU MUST CHANGE YOUR BEHAVIOR! Well, what if you can't get the other 4-6 billion people to do that (you can't)? Wouldn't a better course of action be to harden your infrastructure against rising temperatures and sea levels? Find more ways to produce energy to support life rather than claiming you can somehow turn everything off and still survive? Concentrate on ways to reduce other forms of pollution, on ways to increase food yields and better harness clean water.

I said this in the non-aviation thread and I will repeat it here: I am convinced that in future the focus will move from avoiding CO2-emissions to some kind of end-of-pipe-solutions. It’s similar to solid waste disposal or sewage disposal. You can ask people to avoid solid waste and to save water but eventually you have to accept that there are limits and that’s why there are end-of-pipe-solutions.

We (the humanity) will simply not make it to reduce CO2-emissions, simple as that. Even if KLM‘s campaign will be successful, the impact will be so small. It doesn’t help much if every country starts its own campaign. It’s obvious that only a global approach would help but I don’t see this happening.
 
steeler83
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:35 am

I've read through some of these posts, and quite honestly I don't understand why people are making such a fuss over this. Isn't AMS connected to scores of other cities in Europe by a rather extensive high-speed rail network? Not to mention, I know someone who went to Germany and said you could travel between any two given points by rail. In Europe, the cities are closer; not separated by as much open space/woods as places in the US.

If this were the US, I would understand the outcry. Then again, perhaps this would give us a push at pursuing more sustainable infrastructure improvements.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:45 am

It's a good CORSIA strategy. Reduce / re-price / eliminate your shortest / least profitable routes, status quo on most everything else, and meet your carbon goals to say 2025.
 
ME720
Posts: 164
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Re: KLM calls for people to fly less

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:54 am

MartijnNL wrote:
ME720 wrote:
Had they been serious they could have taken this opportunity to announce axing their ridiculous AMS-BRU route. 1h30’ by train between both cities.

Why would a few daily flights be ridiculous? It's all a matter of perspective. What I personally find ridiculous are 8,5 million cars in my country of 17 million people. A lot of these cars are used for short trips and very short trips. In my neighbourhood parents even drive their children to school, which is a few hundred meters away. And they don't drive on to their work, no they return home and park the car.

The train between Amsterdam and Brussels takes two to three hours, depending on the type of train you take. But it's not 1,5 hours. I like people having a choice instead of being 'forced' to use a train. Connecting airside can be much less hassle than changing from a plane to a train.

SKAirbus wrote:
Firstly, KLM need to lead by example and get rid of their ridiculous and unnecessary AMS-BRU route - a distance of 158km / 98 miles as the crow flies. Instead they should work with the train operators to add their flight numbers to train departures just like AF do between CDG and Brussel Zuid station.

The trains already have flight numbers. It is possible to start your journey by train in Amsterdam or Brussels and change to an aircraft at either of the two airports.


1. Car is personal freedom. Public transport does not fit everyone s life style or choices.
2. Thalys schipol to antwerp is 55 min. And Antwerp
To brussels 35-40 min by train. Total 1h30-1h35
Yes their flight to BRU is ridiculous. They can use the AF check in facilities at brussels midi .. and partner wit Thalys from brussels the way they do from Antwerp. BTW often their flights through AMS are cheaper starting from BRU by plane than staring at Antwerp train station, train to AMS .. again hypocritical add to that very bad service.. an airline to avoid, is my advice. Had a serious issue with them HKG-AMS- BRU got downgraded from C to Y as C was overbooked. Was not informed just at boarding change of boarding pass.. had I not taken a close look I would have boarded Y seat. I complained after lots of haggling was put on AF C class to Paris. Hours later, needless to say a huge difference in service etc.. am still fighting(months later) to get my miles credited on flying blue!!!! Never ever again KLM!!

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