x1234
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How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:13 am

How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!? I find it weird that DL185 has a very long flying time versus DL583 as its not polar. They can probably cut 1 hour off the flying time by flying polar off a flight that is already very long.
 
glideslope900
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:20 am

Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:28 am

185 is on a route that doesn't require ETOPS. That may not be a coincidence.
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stl07
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:41 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.

Have you ever flown into Los Angles in the winter? You pass over ski resorts and snowcapped mountains right before touching down in 80 degree LA weather.
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
sadiqutp
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:55 am

There are a lot of variables that are taken into account while choosing the optimum route. From wind currents, to navigation costs, to authority approvals. Any variable could make what seems to be two similar routes be optimum to one and not the other!

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.

WHAT NOW?
 
Fuling
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:01 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


Really? Has the ME3 caught on yet? If they depart at 45°C (summer) and reach cruise at -40°C, that surely is a worry right?
 
ScottKBUF
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:04 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


It doesn't matter where you are on the globe, it's still pretty cold at 35,000ft. From take-off to top of climb its not uncommon to see a outside air temp change of 50-60 degrees C in that 15-20 minute period. Any pressurized aircraft is designed to deal with these extreme fluctuations in temperature.
Buffalo, NY
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:12 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.

Someone tell EK, EY, and QR.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:15 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


I'm sorry but this is right up there with reading that Delta is retiring the MD-90 and replacing it with the A220 due to crew familiarity with a 3-2 configuration. Which was also posted today on these lovely a.net forums.
 
Lrockeagle
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:33 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.

Yeah that’s why US1549 started sinking so quickly in the Hudson. Water was so cold it compromised the aluminum and it cracked
Lrockeagle
14 years ago

I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
strfyr51
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:37 am

x1234 wrote:
How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!? I find it y NOTweird that DL185 has a very long flying time versus DL583 as its not polar. They can probably cut 1 hour off the flying time by flying polar off a flight that is already very long.

Do you know what the winds aloft actually were and whether they would have made any Money going that way? It's probably NOT a cut and dried answer..
 
socalflyer00
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:56 am

It seems that before 07/02, DL 185 was taking the polar route quite frequently. Over the last week however there have been primarily non-polar routings including one diversion to SEA on 07/08. Perhaps one of the frames they are using on this route can not operate ETOPS at the moment for any number of reasons. But it does seem that DL 185 *usually* is a polar routing like DL 583.

Even so, the polar route only saved about 38-40 mins
 
Pavlakakos
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:11 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


Best comment ever. :D
Although i'm pretty sure it's kinda cold over ATL once you reach FL200 and above. :airplane:
 
Caryjack
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:19 am

x1234 wrote:
How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!? I find it weird that DL185 has a very long flying time versus DL583 as its not polar. They can probably cut 1 hour off the flying time by flying polar off a flight that is already very long.
ATL is south of DTW so an aircraft must fly through the wider southern longitudes to reach the same point as an aircraft from the north.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=pvg-atl%0D ... 85&SU=mach
Just curious, what do you consider to be a polar route?
Thanks,
Cary
 
32andBelow
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:17 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.

Is this a joke
 
Max Q
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:48 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.



Oops,


Another reason to take the train
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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hongkongflyer
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:35 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


Never heard about it. There are plenty of planes using polar route from hot cities. The planes are gradually cooled down before they reaching polar area.
 
glideslope900
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:56 pm

ScottKBUF wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


It doesn't matter where you are on the globe, it's still pretty cold at 35,000ft. From take-off to top of climb its not uncommon to see a outside air temp change of 50-60 degrees C in that 15-20 minute period. Any pressurized aircraft is designed to deal with these extreme fluctuations in temperature.


I’m joking guys, relax.
 
SteelChair
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:27 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
185 is on a route that doesn't require ETOPS. That may not be a coincidence.


Are you sure about that? I knew 60 minute routes were possible in the Atlantic but thought they were virtually impossible in tbe Pacific.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:30 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
185 is on a route that doesn't require ETOPS. That may not be a coincidence.


Are you sure about that? I knew 60 minute routes were possible in the Atlantic but thought they were virtually impossible in tbe Pacific.


I don't know for sure that everything in Alaska is open and available, but if so, take a look at a route like JNU-NRT, which is close to what this Delta flight flew TPAC and stays within 60 minutes with minimal deviation from the great circle route.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
N766UA
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:29 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


LOL everyone thinks you’re serious. What a bunch of dorks.
 
747megatop
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:43 pm

socalflyer00 wrote:
It seems that before 07/02, DL 185 was taking the polar route quite frequently. Over the last week however there have been primarily non-polar routings including one diversion to SEA on 07/08. Perhaps one of the frames they are using on this route can not operate ETOPS at the moment for any number of reasons. But it does seem that DL 185 *usually* is a polar routing like DL 583.

Even so, the polar route only saved about 38-40 mins

Does anyone know the reason for diversion to SEA? https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KATL/KSEA
 
747megatop
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:45 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.

That explains the reason for all the creaks and groans when the aircraft flies from a warm southern US cities and crosses the poles!
 
a320fan
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:48 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.

This has to be one of the strangest things I’ve read on this site in the last 15 years. Someone should warn EK about the dangers of their polar flights departing DXB.
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RetiredNWA
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:56 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


It appears you are completely unfamiliar with the temperature lapse rate...

Is this website even worth reading anymore?
 
digitalcloud
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:19 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


I love this forum.
 
AirFiero
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:26 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
ScottKBUF wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


It doesn't matter where you are on the globe, it's still pretty cold at 35,000ft. From take-off to top of climb its not uncommon to see a outside air temp change of 50-60 degrees C in that 15-20 minute period. Any pressurized aircraft is designed to deal with these extreme fluctuations in temperature.


I’m joking guys, relax.


I am actually very thankful to find out that you were not that dumb. I might suggest though that you put a wink :-) after such a post?
 
D L X
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:28 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.

28 posts on this thread so far, and 22 of them are about this comment.

:rotfl:
 
pnutt
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:39 pm

Quick comparison: DL185 ATL-PVG took 16h16 (including a circle before landing) and DL583 DTW-PVG took 14h21. If DL185 had first flown to Detroit (say in around 1h30) and then followed the DL583 route, it would have ended up taking around the same time. Plus, if you check out some ATL-DTW routes from yesterday, there are some substantial (weather-related?) detours, which might be a factor too.
 
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jscottwomack
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:44 pm

D L X wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.

28 posts on this thread so far, and 22 of them are about this comment.

:rotfl:


We need someone stick their arm out at 38,000 ft over Atlanta with a thermometer and another over Detroit and get us some readings......
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SoCalFlyer
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:58 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.



Say what now....where the heck did you pull this one from
 
PhilMcCrackin
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:06 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


Lol, what? It's well below freezing at cruising altitudes even over the hottest places on Earth. That would have nothing to do with it.
 
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stl07
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:16 pm

I love how even after the poster said it was a joke, people continue to make comments about it or the site quality going down.
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
Eyad89
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:18 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.



Let’s keep them coming.
 
birdbrainz
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:20 pm

Possibly to avoid Russian airspace for some bizarre reason?
ETOPS is also a possible reason, but it's a 777-200LR. Seems odd.
The winds aloft must not be that strong now.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:47 pm

Russian airspace is extremely expensive. If the difference in time and burn is not going to make the flight late or over max takeoff weight, a non polar route like R220 keeps the flight in US and Japan airspace which is much cheaper on the overflight fees. Almost every airline does this especially if the cargo/passenger load is light enough to allow the extra fuel for the longer route, if it is longer than polar.

Depending on the winds, this could indeed be the best wind route for today.

While Non-ETOPS is possible for Asia and Pacific flights from North America, approval for that is on a carrier by carrier basis. I do not know if Delta has authorization for that.
 
PBADC3
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:04 pm

x1234 wrote:
How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!? I find it weird that DL185 has a very long flying time versus DL583 as its not polar. They can probably cut 1 hour off the flying time by flying polar off a flight that is already very long.


I presume that you are looking at DL185/11 and DL583/11?

If so, then look at flight information for both flights on delta.com and you'll have your very straightforward answer.

DL583 departed DTW just over 3 hours late while DL185 is on time. Polar would likely be selected for the enroute time savings vs. non polar for 185. Slots in PVG are tightly controlled as is traffic flow via the LAMEN corridor, so showing up an hour+ early to enter the LAMEN corridor would not be favorably handled by Chinese ATC. Too early.
 
ukoverlander
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:02 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


Wow, just..............................wow.
 
ukoverlander
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:22 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


I'm sorry but this is right up there with reading that Delta is retiring the MD-90 and replacing it with the A220 due to crew familiarity with a 3-2 configuration. Which was also posted today on these lovely a.net forums.


They should just bus the Atlanta passengers to Detroit and have them fly from there........ problem solved. :duck: :duck: :duck: :duck:
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:36 pm

PBADC3 wrote:
I presume that you are looking at DL185/11 and DL583/11?

If so, then look at flight information for both flights on delta.com and you'll have your very straightforward answer.

DL583 departed DTW just over 3 hours late while DL185 is on time. Polar would likely be selected for the enroute time savings vs. non polar for 185. Slots in PVG are tightly controlled as is traffic flow via the LAMEN corridor, so showing up an hour+ early to enter the LAMEN corridor would not be favorably handled by Chinese ATC. Too early.


So DL only take routes that save time when they're running late?! Why would DL willingly choose to take a longer route, which uses more fuel and would cost more unless there was some sort of international conflict that prohibited it?

I've had many flights into PVG from both JFK and SIN that arrived an hour early and there's never been an issue.
 
AF773
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:55 pm

stl07 wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.

Have you ever flown into Los Angles in the winter? You pass over ski resorts and snowcapped mountains right before touching down in 80 degree LA weather.



Have you not noticed that all aircrafts landing at LAX in the winter are crooked?
Next flights: SAN-SEA-ANC-MSP-CDG-TLN-ORY; CDG-AMS-DTW-DCA-MSP-SAN; SAN-SLC-SFO-LAX-SAN; SNA-SEA-HNL-SLC-SNA; SAN-LAX-CDG-SLC-SNA
 
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stl07
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:56 pm

AF773 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.

Have you ever flown into Los Angles in the winter? You pass over ski resorts and snowcapped mountains right before touching down in 80 degree LA weather.



Have you not noticed that all aircrafts landing at LAX in the winter are crooked?

Hmmm that explains it
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
BC77008
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:25 pm

The reason for no polar-route out of Atlanta is that Delta does not want their more prestigious Atlanta-based customer to look out the window in-flight and see firsthand the devastating effects air travel has had on the climate.
MY favorite airline and hub is bigger and/or better than YOUR favorite airline and hub!
 
MIflyer12
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:37 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Russian airspace is extremely expensive. If the difference in time and burn is not going to make the flight late or over max takeoff weight, a non polar route like R220 keeps the flight in US and Japan airspace which is much cheaper on the overflight fees.


What's Russia's fee for an overflight like ATL-PVG?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:36 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Atlanta is much hotter than Detroit. The aircraft could experience sudden temperature changes going from the very warm southern US (ATL) into a freezing polar environment. These sudden temp fluctuations could possibly compromise aircraft structure.


Holy crap! That’s some mighty fine BS right there! 10pts!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:06 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Russian airspace is extremely expensive. If the difference in time and burn is not going to make the flight late or over max takeoff weight, a non polar route like R220 keeps the flight in US and Japan airspace which is much cheaper on the overflight fees.


What's Russia's fee for an overflight like ATL-PVG?


I don’t see the bills, but expensive enough the handlers run the comparison in a bizjet and it frequently is cheaper to add 20-30 minutes to avoid the overflight. Unless, of course, doing so then causes a tech stop.

GF
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:08 am

Eyad89 wrote:
Let’s keep them coming.

Yeahhhh, let's not.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
rbavfan
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:48 am

birdbrainz wrote:
Possibly to avoid Russian airspace for some bizarre reason?
ETOPS is also a possible reason, but it's a 777-200LR. Seems odd.
The winds aloft must not be that strong now.


Winds usually weaker in the summer months
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:40 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:
PBADC3 wrote:
I presume that you are looking at DL185/11 and DL583/11?

If so, then look at flight information for both flights on delta.com and you'll have your very straightforward answer.

DL583 departed DTW just over 3 hours late while DL185 is on time. Polar would likely be selected for the enroute time savings vs. non polar for 185. Slots in PVG are tightly controlled as is traffic flow via the LAMEN corridor, so showing up an hour+ early to enter the LAMEN corridor would not be favorably handled by Chinese ATC. Too early.


So DL only take routes that save time when they're running late?! Why would DL willingly choose to take a longer route, which uses more fuel and would cost more unless there was some sort of international conflict that prohibited it?

I've had many flights into PVG from both JFK and SIN that arrived an hour early and there's never been an issue.


The busiest airports around the world are starting to crack down on early arrivals. While in most cases the flight will be allowed to land, the airline will be threatened with fines and loss of slots if they continue to arrive too early.

Late flights also get scrutiny but as long as the delays are not chronic, it is looked at a little differently than an early arrival. Every airline deals with weather and maintenance issues to some degree. Arriving early is more controllable because the airline can plan a longer route, delay the departure, extend the taxi time, or fly slower mach speeds to prevent the early arrival.

The metric most airports wants to see is an arrival +/- 15 minutes of the scheduled slot time.

I haven't yet heard of any actual fines or lost slots due to early arrivals even though there have been threats made to do so.
 
PBADC3
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Re: How come DL185 (ATL-PVG) is not a polar route today but DL583 (DTW-PVG) is!?

Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:04 pm

"The busiest airports around the world are starting to crack down on early arrivals. While in most cases the flight will be allowed to land, the airline will be threatened with fines and loss of slots if they continue to arrive too early. "

This is correct, and the most commonly exhibited of this issue is LHR where an early entry in to U.K. airspace will often get you several holding turns to burn time off and get you closer to your slot time.

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