Exeiowa
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:29 pm

I think the most important thing is that it might shake some details loose if it hangs around although, i suspect the early tries will be more speculative than later attempts.
 
Bradin
Posts: 274
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:35 pm

Remember, in the US, anyone can be sued for anything, even for some of the most ridiculous things possible.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:00 am

BravoOne wrote:
This might have legs so don't discount what appears on the surface as a frivolous lawsuit. SWA was the driving customer force behind the minimalistic approach to differences training and Boeing complied. The 737 MAX Chief Technical Pilot who oversaw the development and certification of the MAX left Boeing to join up with SWA as a line pilot with special MAX oversight. It's his name who appears in the FCTM and FCOM so some low life attorney may be able to turn this into some nefarious, sinsiter plan.


I am of the belief that Boeing is accountable to certification authorities, and not what plausible or implausible promises its sales engineers give to prospective customers to sweeten deals. That said, interesting situation there.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 157
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:10 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

How were harmed? No harm, no suit.

GF


If any passengers in the class action were on a flight with a AOA sensor issue, and they experienced the eventual roller coaster recovery scenario, then that experience comes back to haunt them now, as a result of the details they now know from the JT610 and ET302 crashes. They can't sleep some nights. Who knows. In the end, a jury might award damages more for deterrence than for compensation (ie to send a message to airlines not to hide safety issues from the certification authorities, thereby not putting the flying public at risk).
 
Bhoy
Posts: 358
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:31 am

asdf wrote:
the questions are:

IF that penalty wasnt created by southwest ... would boeing have made the SIM training mandatory?
i guess yes

IF there would have been mandatory SIM training ..... would the two planes have crashed and would all those people have died?
i guess no

make your own decition what that means in a legal way
maybe it means nothing at all

I've not been following the minutia of the other Max threads, but I thought the ET pilots were trained in all aspects of MCAS recovery after JT?
 
sgrow787
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:38 am

bgm wrote:
The $1m per aircraft penalty for sim training was pretty prohibitive, don’t you think? Not that I’m denying Boeing’s culpability, but to say that Southwest had no effect in the mess the MAX is in now is being either obtuse or dishonest.


Of course it had an effect... for those counting beans in Chicago. But it was up to Boeing to decide whether they were interested in counting beans or interested in the long term. They chose counting beans rather than designing a safe plane.

EDIT: Changed "starting a clean sheet design" to "designing a safe plane" because they chose a one-sensor design for the Max's MCAS. Had they chose a two-sensor design, no crashes would've happened (although they would have eaten the simulator training costs).
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:10 am

planecane wrote:
bgm wrote:
Revelation wrote:
WN did not prohibit sim training, they just reflected the cost of sim training back to Boeing. It was up to Boeing to say "that's just the way it is" or "we'll find a way around that cost". Boeing chose the later.


The $1m per aircraft penalty for sim training was pretty prohibitive, don’t you think? Not that I’m denying Boeing’s culpability, but to say that Southwest had no effect in the mess the MAX is in now is being either obtuse or dishonest.


Even if the victims of the crashes tried to sue Southwest it would be dismissed. It doesn't matter what they asked for or what Boeing agreed to sell them. Boeing designed the plane. Boeing is liable for the design.

If I order 1000 chicken sandwiches from a sandwich shop and making them all for me causes the shop to have the chicken unrefrigerated for too long and another customer gets salmonella, the customer can't sue me even if the shop told me that might happen.


But the issue really isn't what the damage to plaintiffs is or was. Its whether we want to dig into WN and Boeing relationship to see if WN withheld their knowledge of the missing/inoperative AOA disagree alert that Boeing was aware of as early as 2017. If a judge decides that's the real issue, then anything can happen.
 
WBM
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:55 am

I'll be honest,the lack of legal understanding in this thread is quite disheartening.

I will try to clarify the problem with the complaint. Very broadly speaking two things must happen to win a lawsuit. First it must be demonstrated that the person you are suing did something wrong. Second you must show that you suffered actual damages from that wrong action. If you do those two things you win the lawsuit. If you win you get paid for your damages. In some cases there are also punitive damages, but you have to be eligible for actual damages before you will see punitive damages.

The first step is pretty easy. Boeing did something wrong. They released an airplane that was not up to aviation standards. There were two crashes caused, at least in part, by the plane's deficiencies. It does not really even matter why the deficiencies happened for most potential claimants. Even if Boeing were the best company in the world with the noblest of intentions, they would still be liable.

It is the second part where this lawsuit does not pass the sniff test. Someone who was merely a passenger on an uneventful MAX flight will not have suffered any real damages. there is nothing to recover, because nothing was lost. This case would be like me suing Bernie Madoff. He may have perpetuated the largest fraud ever, but he did not defraud me so I cannot claim damages.

Just because this lawsuit is frivolous does not mean that all lawsuits against Boeing would be frivolous. In fact it is quite the opposite. Two groups stick out in particular. The families of those lost in the crashes will surely receive payouts. Also there are airlines that will receive compensation based on the grounding and late deliveries. I suspect that most of these cases will be settled out of court as both sides will have a good understanding of what the potential claims would be, and they should be able to negotiate a deal that will be better for both sides than going to trial.
 
HugoJunkers
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:11 am

FluidFlow wrote:
planecane wrote:
I don't understand how a lawyer even took the time to file this. I could see a stockholder lawsuit based on these claims maybe but not passenger.

In order to be awarded anything (in any US jurisdiction that I know of) the plaintiffs have to prove they were harmed in some way. Choosing to buy a ticket on WN and arriving safely on a MAX is not harm. I'm sure this will get tossed and is likely a publicity stunt for the law firm.

Even if WN had a crash of the MAX, passengers who weren't on the flight can't sue WN or Boeing.

I'm going to sue AA and Boeing because the MAX led to the project Oasis interior. Therefore I suffered harm flying an AA 737 post conversion.

I flew on a WN MAX a few weeks after Lion Air. I wouldn't join this lawsuit if they guaranteed me $1 million. So ridiculous.


It is a ridiculous lawsuit but it could end up really nasty for both companies if it goes to court even if there is no money claimed. All the points will have to be ruled over and if only one cannot be defended a massive can of worms is opened for later lawsuits. This is the real danger of the above mentioned lawsuit. It almost looks like a straw men lawsuit for later to test out if it is possible to cash in.


Airlines sometimes make redisclose demands. When American Airlines effectively signed itself in as launch customer for the LEAP equipped MAX ordering 100 MAX in 2011 even before the board gave authority to offer. It kind of set up Boeing for failure because of the constraints imposed ie no FBW. AA saving grace may be that it ordered the angle of attack display and sensor disagree option for reasons nothing to do with MCAS and this therefor could be argued made the AA 737 MAX safe
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:04 am

sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:
bgm wrote:

The $1m per aircraft penalty for sim training was pretty prohibitive, don’t you think? Not that I’m denying Boeing’s culpability, but to say that Southwest had no effect in the mess the MAX is in now is being either obtuse or dishonest.


Even if the victims of the crashes tried to sue Southwest it would be dismissed. It doesn't matter what they asked for or what Boeing agreed to sell them. Boeing designed the plane. Boeing is liable for the design.

If I order 1000 chicken sandwiches from a sandwich shop and making them all for me causes the shop to have the chicken unrefrigerated for too long and another customer gets salmonella, the customer can't sue me even if the shop told me that might happen.


But the issue really isn't what the damage to plaintiffs is or was. Its whether we want to dig into WN and Boeing relationship to see if WN withheld their knowledge of the missing/inoperative AOA disagree alert that Boeing was aware of as early as 2017. If a judge decides that's the real issue, then anything can happen.

That can't happen. The judge has to rule on the merits of the case. This isn't a DOJ investigation. You don't get to just automatically proceed to discovery. That's not how it works.
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:27 pm

planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:

Even if the victims of the crashes tried to sue Southwest it would be dismissed. It doesn't matter what they asked for or what Boeing agreed to sell them. Boeing designed the plane. Boeing is liable for the design.

If I order 1000 chicken sandwiches from a sandwich shop and making them all for me causes the shop to have the chicken unrefrigerated for too long and another customer gets salmonella, the customer can't sue me even if the shop told me that might happen.


But the issue really isn't what the damage to plaintiffs is or was. Its whether we want to dig into WN and Boeing relationship to see if WN withheld their knowledge of the missing/inoperative AOA disagree alert that Boeing was aware of as early as 2017. If a judge decides that's the real issue, then anything can happen.

That can't happen. The judge has to rule on the merits of the case. This isn't a DOJ investigation. You don't get to just automatically proceed to discovery. That's not how it works.


We dont know if there's a pilot out there who's willing to come forward with a harrowing experience. Maybe he's the one who can't sleep. A lot of reports in the NASA database. Where's your creativity??
 
N408BN
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Bricktop wrote:
superjeff wrote:
This seems like a typical attempt at a class action lawsuit. I find it interesting they didn't add United (which also has 73Max equipment), and which also has bought Boeing over the years. Damages claimed and damages awarded are going to come out much later; the possibility is really that the lawyers make a fortune, the actual plaintiffs (people who claimed they were hurt when they booked on 73Max flights without knowing they were unsafe) will get next to nothing (maybe a $25 coupon toward a flight). Just my 2 cents worth.

They won't even get your two cents worth. No damages. The US legal system: Envy of the world! :roll:

Just how were these people damaged?
We liked flying Braniff Style
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:19 pm

Bradin wrote:
Remember, in the US, anyone can be sued for anything, even for some of the most ridiculous things possible.


And some people actually win ridiculous lawsuits, especially if it's in California
 
Bricktop
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:29 pm

N408BN wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
superjeff wrote:
This seems like a typical attempt at a class action lawsuit. I find it interesting they didn't add United (which also has 73Max equipment), and which also has bought Boeing over the years. Damages claimed and damages awarded are going to come out much later; the possibility is really that the lawyers make a fortune, the actual plaintiffs (people who claimed they were hurt when they booked on 73Max flights without knowing they were unsafe) will get next to nothing (maybe a $25 coupon toward a flight). Just my 2 cents worth.

They won't even get your two cents worth. No damages. The US legal system: Envy of the world! :roll:

Just how were these people damaged?

IMO they weren't. The fact that absurd claims like these can be made is a huge problem with our legal system. If I was BCA and WN, when this garbage is tossed I would petition for costs. But this crap has gone on for decades so I hold out little hope.
 
blueflyer
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:19 pm

WBM wrote:
It is the second part where this lawsuit does not pass the sniff test. Someone who was merely a passenger on an uneventful MAX flight will not have suffered any real damages. there is nothing to recover, because nothing was lost.

Genuine question. If an airline knowingly operates an unsafe flight (not claiming Southwest did...) however the flight completes successfully, passengers have no recourse for being endangered?

asdf wrote:
IF that penalty wasnt created by southwest ... would boeing have made the SIM training mandatory?
i guess yes

The penalty wasn't created by Southwest, it was agreed upon by both parties during contractual negotiations.

bgm wrote:
Regarding the grounding, WN could have chosen to ground the MAX after the rest of the world did. But they chose to keep flying those aircraft, simply because grounding it would cost them money. This decision put thousands of passengers in unnecessary danger.

You are trying to make something out of nothing. Lawyers will not be able to dig Southwest for not grounding its Max fleet even though its regulator didn't require it unless they can demonstrate one of two things:
a) Southwest had information that would have justified a grounding independent of any FAA action;
b) The FAA was clearly negligent/incompetent in not ordering the grounding earlier, and Southwest knew or should have known the FAA was negligent/incompetent.
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:25 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:

But the issue really isn't what the damage to plaintiffs is or was. Its whether we want to dig into WN and Boeing relationship to see if WN withheld their knowledge of the missing/inoperative AOA disagree alert that Boeing was aware of as early as 2017. If a judge decides that's the real issue, then anything can happen.

That can't happen. The judge has to rule on the merits of the case. This isn't a DOJ investigation. You don't get to just automatically proceed to discovery. That's not how it works.


We dont know if there's a pilot out there who's willing to come forward with a harrowing experience. Maybe he's the one who can't sleep. A lot of reports in the NASA database. Where's your creativity??

That has nothing to to with this lawsuit. It also wouldn't prove any criminal conspiracy between Boeing and Southwest.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:31 pm

Bricktop wrote:
N408BN wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
They won't even get your two cents worth. No damages. The US legal system: Envy of the world! :roll:

Just how were these people damaged?

IMO they weren't. The fact that absurd claims like these can be made is a huge problem with our legal system. If I was BCA and WN, when this garbage is tossed I would petition for costs. But this crap has gone on for decades so I hold out little hope.

One of the biggest issues with the US legal system is that if the case is dismissed the defendant can't get the costs awarded. That's why the ambulance chasers can file all these crazy suits. They can try to force a settlement with no risk.
 
9Patch
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:36 pm

sgrow787 wrote:

If any passengers in the class action were on a flight with a AOA sensor issue, and they experienced the eventual roller coaster recovery scenario, then that experience comes back to haunt them now, as a result of the details they now know from the JT610 and ET302 crashes. They can't sleep some nights. Who knows. In the end, a jury might award damages more for deterrence than for compensation (ie to send a message to airlines not to hide safety issues from the certification authorities, thereby not putting the flying public at risk).


How many Max passenger flights actually experienced the roller coaster recovery scenario?
 
WBM
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:05 pm

blueflyer wrote:
WBM wrote:
It is the second part where this lawsuit does not pass the sniff test. Someone who was merely a passenger on an uneventful MAX flight will not have suffered any real damages. there is nothing to recover, because nothing was lost.

Genuine question. If an airline knowingly operates an unsafe flight (not claiming Southwest did...) however the flight completes successfully, passengers have no recourse for being endangered?



That is a very good and reasonable question. There are a lot of scenarios that could be covered by "an airline knowingly operating an unsafe flight." It would still come down to damages. If on the flight something happened that would be considered a traumatic experience for a reasonable person, that would definitely count as damages. A person would be able to sue and recover damages in that case.

I think another important factor is how dangerous was the flight? If there was an uneventful flight that passengers later found out they were lucky to survive, that could cause trauma in a reasonable person. It would be less than being on a traumatic flight, so there would likely be less damages awarded. Somewhere between lucky to survive and one in ten thousand chance of something going wrong the damages would become negligible. Reasonable people can disagree on where that point is. In all cases we would expect government agencies to take action against an airline that knowingly flew an unsafe aircraft.
 
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MichaelR
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:36 pm

If the 737 MAX is such a dangerous aircraft, then why does my entire family, as well as all the 737 MAX pilots my family has talked to, feel completely comfortable flying on the 737 MAX?
The following is pasted from a website advertising pilot jobs in Indonesia:
Requirements
"What do I need to succeed on the modern airline employment market in Indonesia?"

The Aviation employment market in Indonesia is in dire need of local pilots. Most Indonesin and expatriate pilots who hold FAA CPL with multi-engine and/or instrument ratings and adequate conversions to the licenses of their home countries, will be able to find an airline employment job within the 3 months after graduation from our professional flight training program. Local air carriers in Indonesia, Malaysia and China are looking for the following qualifications, as a minimum:

qualifications ICAO commercial license (FAA preferred)
qualifications Instrument rating
qualifications single-engine or multi-engine rating (multi-engine rating is NOT required for employment in airlines)
qualifications Night rating
qualifications 190+ hours of flight time
qualifications ICAO-4 English proficiency
qualifications Indonesian citizens or permanent residents preferred!
qualifications Fluency in Bahasa Indonesia is preferred!

I would like to draw attention to the fact that they only require 190 hours of flight time, and do NOT require a multi-engine rating to fly with an airline.
What scares me is not the airplane itself, but the dangerously low standards for pilots in that area. If these pilots can't even be a Certified Flight Instructor in the United States, then they shouldn't be in the front end of anything larger than a Kingair. Let alone a 737.
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:43 pm

planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:
That can't happen. The judge has to rule on the merits of the case. This isn't a DOJ investigation. You don't get to just automatically proceed to discovery. That's not how it works.


We dont know if there's a pilot out there who's willing to come forward with a harrowing experience. Maybe he's the one who can't sleep. A lot of reports in the NASA database. Where's your creativity??

That has nothing to to with this lawsuit. It also wouldn't prove any criminal conspiracy between Boeing and Southwest.


But one of the claims in the Complaint was negligence. You don't have to prove criminal conspiracy to prove negligence.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:46 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:

We dont know if there's a pilot out there who's willing to come forward with a harrowing experience. Maybe he's the one who can't sleep. A lot of reports in the NASA database. Where's your creativity??

That has nothing to to with this lawsuit. It also wouldn't prove any criminal conspiracy between Boeing and Southwest.


But one of the claims in the Complaint was negligence. You don't have to prove criminal conspiracy to prove negligence.

It doesn't matter what is in the complaint. If there were no damages there is no case. Open and shut. You can't just sue for negligence if nothing happens. A grocery store can have an olive oil jar break and cover the aisle with oil and not clean it up. If nobody slips and falls they can't sue for negligence even though the store was negligent. Well, they can file if they pay the court fee but it will be dismissed.
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:54 pm

planecane wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
planecane wrote:
That has nothing to to with this lawsuit. It also wouldn't prove any criminal conspiracy between Boeing and Southwest.


But one of the claims in the Complaint was negligence. You don't have to prove criminal conspiracy to prove negligence.

It doesn't matter what is in the complaint. If there were no damages there is no case. Open and shut. You can't just sue for negligence if nothing happens. A grocery store can have an olive oil jar break and cover the aisle with oil and not clean it up. If nobody slips and falls they can't sue for negligence even though the store was negligent. Well, they can file if they pay the court fee but it will be dismissed.


Still no creativity! This is a separate thread just to focus on this one lawsuit and you want to shut it down because you think there's no damages even though you can't possibly know for sure. Great.

Don't you wanna just see someone fry for this. In a pan. With olive oil.
 
COEWR787
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:05 pm

Wanting revenge err... frying in a pan with olive oil, is a completely separate issue from whether someone has standing to file a lawsuit and not have it dismissed, at least as standard practices in the US court systems goes. :) Desire for revenge is by itself not adequate to form the basis for a standing in the US court system. There has to be some credible damage involved. That is what many have been trying to explain repeatedly, apparently to no avail.
 
smartplane
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:08 pm

Much of this is a precursor to adding FAA liability and compensation to the mix.

Boeing legal team must be reading the printed word, between the lines, and inferences by behaviour, especially where their employees have been wearing two hats. And the FAA will be doing the same.

Presumably WN is in the mix, to prove a link between WN demands, Boeing behaviour / response and FAA awareness of both.
 
planecane
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:22 pm

smartplane wrote:
Much of this is a precursor to adding FAA liability and compensation to the mix.

Boeing legal team must be reading the printed word, between the lines, and inferences by behaviour, especially where their employees have been wearing two hats. And the FAA will be doing the same.

Presumably WN is in the mix, to prove a link between WN demands, Boeing behaviour / response and FAA awareness of both.

Except the FAA is a government agency and you can't sue the federal government for damages.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:37 pm

planecane wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Much of this is a precursor to adding FAA liability and compensation to the mix.

Boeing legal team must be reading the printed word, between the lines, and inferences by behaviour, especially where their employees have been wearing two hats. And the FAA will be doing the same.

Presumably WN is in the mix, to prove a link between WN demands, Boeing behaviour / response and FAA awareness of both.

Except the FAA is a government agency and you can't sue the federal government for damages.

May be correct, but have Boeing and the FAA contracted out? Specifically? By inference? What liability has been contracted or implied between Boeing and the FAA in respect to Boeing employees wearing two hats? Did the FAA underwrite some or all Boeing risk of undertaking certification work?

At first glance, Boeing has a great deal from the FAA - a heads we win, tails you lose arrangement. A water tight stop loss arrangement. Boeing will be claiming staff signed off every element of the MAX in their capacity as FAA agents. We have zero liability. FAA have 100% liability, but they can't be sued.
Last edited by smartplane on Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
UA772IAD
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:41 pm

planecane wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Much of this is a precursor to adding FAA liability and compensation to the mix.

Boeing legal team must be reading the printed word, between the lines, and inferences by behaviour, especially where their employees have been wearing two hats. And the FAA will be doing the same.

Presumably WN is in the mix, to prove a link between WN demands, Boeing behaviour / response and FAA awareness of both.

Except the FAA is a government agency and you can't sue the federal government for damages.

Actually, you can- through the Federal Tort Claims Act, which in some situations, can waive the Federal Government's sovereign immunity from tort claims.

It was actually a military plane crash which set the FTCA into motion:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92987873
 
asdf
Posts: 316
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Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:39 pm

Bhoy wrote:
asdf wrote:
the questions are:

IF that penalty wasnt created by southwest ... would boeing have made the SIM training mandatory?
i guess yes

IF there would have been mandatory SIM training ..... would the two planes have crashed and would all those people have died?
i guess no

make your own decition what that means in a legal way
maybe it means nothing at all

I've not been following the minutia of the other Max threads, but I thought the ET pilots were trained in all aspects of MCAS recovery after JT?


Probably yes
But it didnt work

We dont know why
Maybe they didnt follow procedures

Maybe because procedures didnt work like they were supposed to
 
GSPSPOT
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:30 am

Soooo.... Have there actually been any incidents or near-incidents involving WN 738 Max a/c? If an airline doesn't experience unusual disruption with an a/c, why on earth would they indicate to anyone that there's an issue unless directed to by a regulatory agency? What about that is irresponsible or at the very least worthy of a lawsuit?
Great Lakes, great life.
 
TheF15Ace
Posts: 278
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:09 am

MichaelR wrote:
If the 737 MAX is such a dangerous aircraft, then why does my entire family, as well as all the 737 MAX pilots my family has talked to, feel completely comfortable flying on the 737 MAX?
The following is pasted from a website advertising pilot jobs in Indonesia:
Requirements
"What do I need to succeed on the modern airline employment market in Indonesia?"

The Aviation employment market in Indonesia is in dire need of local pilots. Most Indonesin and expatriate pilots who hold FAA CPL with multi-engine and/or instrument ratings and adequate conversions to the licenses of their home countries, will be able to find an airline employment job within the 3 months after graduation from our professional flight training program. Local air carriers in Indonesia, Malaysia and China are looking for the following qualifications, as a minimum:

qualifications ICAO commercial license (FAA preferred)
qualifications Instrument rating
qualifications single-engine or multi-engine rating (multi-engine rating is NOT required for employment in airlines)
qualifications Night rating
qualifications 190+ hours of flight time
qualifications ICAO-4 English proficiency
qualifications Indonesian citizens or permanent residents preferred!
qualifications Fluency in Bahasa Indonesia is preferred!

I would like to draw attention to the fact that they only require 190 hours of flight time, and do NOT require a multi-engine rating to fly with an airline.
What scares me is not the airplane itself, but the dangerously low standards for pilots in that area. If these pilots can't even be a Certified Flight Instructor in the United States, then they shouldn't be in the front end of anything larger than a Kingair. Let alone a 737.


You might want to go speak with your supervisor and get an updated script. The ''3rd world pilots who did not have the almighty US requirement of 1500 hours flying circuits in a Cessna'' narrative was discontinued from use for the most part for at least a couple of weeks now.
 
bob75013
Posts: 817
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:26 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
Soooo.... Have there actually been any incidents or near-incidents involving WN 738 Max a/c? If an airline doesn't experience unusual disruption with an a/c, why on earth would they indicate to anyone that there's an issue unless directed to by a regulatory agency? What about that is irresponsible or at the very least worthy of a lawsuit?


Actually the day after the ET crash WN's pilot union issued a statement that the members of the union had complete faith in MAXs and would not hesitate to fly them or put their own family members on them. Think that would have ahppened if there had ben incidents? Remember WN probably completed more MAX flights than any other airline in the world before the MAXs wre grounded.
 
planecane
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:15 am

bob75013 wrote:
GSPSPOT wrote:
Soooo.... Have there actually been any incidents or near-incidents involving WN 738 Max a/c? If an airline doesn't experience unusual disruption with an a/c, why on earth would they indicate to anyone that there's an issue unless directed to by a regulatory agency? What about that is irresponsible or at the very least worthy of a lawsuit?


Actually the day after the ET crash WN's pilot union issued a statement that the members of the union had complete faith in MAXs and would not hesitate to fly them or put their own family members on them. Think that would have ahppened if there had ben incidents? Remember WN probably completed more MAX flights than any other airline in the world before the MAXs wre grounded.

Not probably. They did. I think it was 41,000 flights. Who knows what would have happened if a bird hit the active AoA sensor on a WN flight.
 
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itripreport
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:08 am

Why not just sue American, I mean weren't they the ones who gave Boeing the idea of the 737 MAX?
 
qm001
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:25 am

Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:31 am

I suspect that this may be a fishing expedition in order to force Boeing and/or WN to provide documents for discovery purposes. There may be no other purpose than to fine evidence for use in other, less frivolous lawsuits in the future. I am not sure that this would be allowed, but, I can't imagine any other reason for this.
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:06 pm

Well, at least now we know why Boeing won't do the most logical thing, which is scrap MCAS altogether.

....with 500+ likely deliveries to WN, they can't afford a half billion dollars in stipulated fees for this contraption. :(





Bradin wrote:
Remember, in the US, anyone can be sued for anything, even for some of the most ridiculous things possible.

Good.

As already stated by another member, I'll take a system where the powerful have to tread in fear of legal retribution to the little guy, ANY day. It's one of the few things that the US gets systematically right.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Bradin
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:25 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Well, at least now we know why Boeing won't do the most logical thing, which is scrap MCAS altogether.

....with 500+ likely deliveries to WN, they can't afford a half billion dollars in stipulated fees for this contraption. :(

Bradin wrote:
Remember, in the US, anyone can be sued for anything, even for some of the most ridiculous things possible.

Good.

As already stated by another member, I'll take a system where the powerful have to tread in fear of legal retribution to the little guy, ANY day. It's one of the few things that the US gets systematically right.


Equally, one can be face retribution for falsifying legal retribution. Or where the powerful uses legal retribution to crush the little guy...It is a double edge sword.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14869
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:15 pm

Bradin wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Well, at least now we know why Boeing won't do the most logical thing, which is scrap MCAS altogether.

....with 500+ likely deliveries to WN, they can't afford a half billion dollars in stipulated fees for this contraption. :(

Bradin wrote:
Remember, in the US, anyone can be sued for anything, even for some of the most ridiculous things possible.

Good.

As already stated by another member, I'll take a system where the powerful have to tread in fear of legal retribution to the little guy, ANY day. It's one of the few things that the US gets systematically right.


Equally, one can be face retribution for falsifying legal retribution. Or where the powerful uses legal retribution to crush the little guy...It is a double edge sword.

Luckily, the judge can throw the case out before requiring you to undergo crippling discovery costs.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Sokes
Posts: 164
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Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:52 am

DenverTed wrote:
But WN only needed the -8. The re-engine with larger diameter engines was driven by the -9. They need to sue United or Alaska instead.

I'm a bit confused as to takeoff thrust vs static thrust, but that's what I found, mostly Wikipedia:
The B737 NG has CFM-56-7 engines with a diameter of 1,54m. Takeoff thrust is 89-120 kN. Bypass ratio 5.1-5.5:1
The B737 MAx has CFM LEAP 1B engines with a diameter of 1,75m. Takeoff thrust is 125 kN. Bypass ratio 9:1
Embraer E195-E2 has PW 1900G engines with a diameter of 2 m. Takeoff thrust is 93-106 kN. Bypass ratio 12:1
Embraer E175-E2 has PW 1700G engines with a diameter of 1,6 m. Takeoff thrust is 76kN. Bypass ratio 9:1

What would have been the solution for the -8 ?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
DenverTed
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: Complaint filed against Boeing and WN over 737 MAX safety issues

Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:55 am

Sokes wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
But WN only needed the -8. The re-engine with larger diameter engines was driven by the -9. They need to sue United or Alaska instead.

I'm a bit confused as to takeoff thrust vs static thrust, but that's what I found, mostly Wikipedia:
The B737 NG has CFM-56-7 engines with a diameter of 1,54m. Takeoff thrust is 89-120 kN. Bypass ratio 5.1-5.5:1
The B737 MAx has CFM LEAP 1B engines with a diameter of 1,75m. Takeoff thrust is 125 kN. Bypass ratio 9:1
Embraer E195-E2 has PW 1900G engines with a diameter of 2 m. Takeoff thrust is 93-106 kN. Bypass ratio 12:1
Embraer E175-E2 has PW 1700G engines with a diameter of 1,6 m. Takeoff thrust is 76kN. Bypass ratio 9:1

What would have been the solution for the -8 ?

I'm just joking. But it does seem like whatever the economics of the engine on the -9, they could have got those on the -8 with 4" less diameter. The MAX was always going to be a compromise relative to the E2. If the core was sized for the -9 or the A321, it seems like that was working against the economics of the -8. Could have the -8 with a 3,000nm range and lighter MTOW got by with an engine with a smaller fan and core for WN and other -700 and -800 replacements? Then the extra 300nm of range on the -7 might have been a better selling point.
 
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enilria
Posts: 9483
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Boeing and WN sued over 737 MAX safety issues

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:35 pm

SEU wrote:
Just read through the Southwest lawsuit. They are saying that southwest and boeing have colluded on several levels throughout the entire history of WN, which ultimately ended up with the troubled MAX we see today.

They say the evidence can be found with WNs continuous and remarkable financial performances, when the industry is typically volatile, when they merged with other airlines and spent billions getting rid of planes to keep being a sole aircraft type, even giving planes to competitors (I guess the DL deal). The lawsuit goes as far to say

"It took government intervention—the grounding of the entire fleet of 737 MAX 8
airplanes by the Federal Aviation Administration (“FAA”)—for Southwest to publicly
acknowledge a problem. But in reality, Southwest knew the 737 MAX 8 was fatally flawed and
had worked with Boeing to cover it up and falsely tout the safety of the airplane"

There is more, but its going in on WN.

Can WN be held liable for an agreement with Boeing? They cannot control the actions of Boeing surely?

Can you really file a lawsuit with just a conspiracy theory and no evidence and not get dismissed? “Southwest knew it was likely to rain, but still sold me a ticket to the beach”?

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