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MrBren
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AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:27 pm

According to La Tribune, AF is poised to order A220 by end of July. A380 are to be replaced either by B787 or A330neo, decision to be made later this year.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/services/transport-logistique/air-france-travaille-sur-une-commande-d-avions-fin-juillet-823498.html
Last edited by qf789 on Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: new information
 
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Vasu
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:31 pm

MrBren wrote:
According to La Tribune, AF is poised to order A220 by end of July. A380 are to be replaced either by B787 or A330neo, decision to be made later this year.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/services/transport-logistique/air-france-travaille-sur-une-commande-d-avions-fin-juillet-823498.html


A380 to 787 or A330neo? That’s quite a size difference!
 
Ronaldo747
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:35 pm

A220 for HOP! or replacement of A318, A319 (and maybe some A320) at the mainline? Both make sense imho.

A330neo or 787 as direct A380 replacement make no sense to me. I mean, what is the role of the A359 at AF?
 
kimimm19
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:40 pm

As exciting and welcome an A220 order would be, so disappointing would a a380 replacement order be, especially if it is to be replaced by the 787...

Why not replace it with the a350-1000 or at least the a359? Anything smaller would be ridiculous.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:58 pm

My understanding of the article indicates the A220-300 would replace the A318, 319 and yes, even the A320 - pointing out the CS3's seat costs "being equivalent to the A321".
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:08 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
As exciting and welcome an A220 order would be, so disappointing would a a380 replacement order be, especially if it is to be replaced by the 787...

Why not replace it with the a350-1000 or at least the a359? Anything smaller would be ridiculous.


It could be that AF struggles mightily to fill the seats of the 380 at fares it finds acceptable. Using smaller aircraft to make more money is not a new idea. BA started replacing 757s with 319s years ago. viewtopic.php?t=170927
 
blueflyer
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:14 pm

Even though they're the smallest aircraft (read highest seat cost), the A318s would actually be the last to be replaced by A220s as they are younger than the A319s and A320s in the fleet.

Another interesting nugget is that Transavia will probably continue to operate an all-Boeing fleet and that a 737 Max order may be announced as soon as management thinks there's no PR risk involved.

kimimm19 wrote:
Why not replace it with the a350-1000 or at least the a359? Anything smaller would be ridiculous.

The A350-1000 is under consideration however management thinks it is too expensive for the role it would play in the Air France network. There is another thread about an interview with Ben Smith where he explains he wants to simplify thenetwork, particularly in Africa, and replace less-than-daily, one-stop, and circular flights by daily non-stop flights. Smaller aircraft would help...
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EvanWSFO
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:17 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
As exciting and welcome an A220 order would be, so disappointing would a a380 replacement order be, especially if it is to be replaced by the 787...

Why not replace it with the a350-1000 or at least the a359? Anything smaller would be ridiculous.


AF has seventy 777's. A top-off of 787's in not unusual. It seems to work better for them. My only question is they just announced all future 787's were going to KLM. Has that changed?
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inkjet7
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:24 pm

One more 787 going to AF anyway, #10. Maybe the next 787's will come out of the 25 options AF/KL has.
 
CDGIAD
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:37 pm

Air France Hop fleet will soon only be constituted of E170 and E190 and CRJ700 and CRJ1000.
Air France mainline would have A220-300 with 149 seats to replace the 319 and the 320.
For the 321, the question remains.
They don't need the range of the 320neo as stated in the article.
For long haul aircrafts, the A330 neo would make most sense to replace the current 330.
And I guess more 777 if they need high capacity aircrafts.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:48 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
As exciting and welcome an A220 order would be, so disappointing would a a380 replacement order be, especially if it is to be replaced by the 787...

Why not replace it with the a350-1000 or at least the a359? Anything smaller would be ridiculous.


It could be that AF struggles mightily to fill the seats of the 380 at fares it finds acceptable. Using smaller aircraft to make more money is not a new idea. BA started replacing 757s with 319s years ago. viewtopic.php?t=170927


The issue likely isn't filing the A380 but rather the limited number (very) of routes in the AF network that can support the A380 and the enormous cost of upgrading the frames to the current cabin standard, estimated at $30-$40 million per plane. The A380 does not fit the AF network. The A350/77W/789/330 are the future of the long haul fleet. The A220 would be a replacement a significant chunk of the AF A320 family which are getting up in age.
 
VV
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:57 pm

So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.
 
Olddog
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:16 pm

I wonder for how long Hop will still exist. I just booked a trip nice lyon for my wife. The train ticket was around 130 € for the roundtrip, the Hop tariff was 450 600 € depending the hours for the same date....
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:17 pm

VV wrote:
So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.


If this comes to pass, it will be a wasted opportunity. This should have been a single large order for A220s to be shared between AF and KL, which would have helped rationalize a portion of the short/medium haul fleet and would have improved efficiency.

The fact that AF and KL seem to be going in different directions on this fleet decision is further evidence that there is no common vision when it comes to decision making within AF/KL. KL now seems to be doing pretty much whatever it wants regardless of whether it makes sense for AF. And well, AF has pretty much always been that way, so at least their are consistent.

AF/KL is the merger that never was and likely never will be.
Last edited by DL747400 on Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:17 pm

Surely shelling out the 30-40 million is cheaper than buying new planes considering they will be on property for another 5 years anyway. May aswell bite the bullet and keep them for 10 years.

I don't know what to say about the maintenance issues, is it because of the size of the fleet ? Or is maintenance done poorly ? Or is it just because the frames are older ?

I'm surprised to see that the backbone of AF's shorthaul fleet might become the A220. I guess it must be THAT good of a plane.
 
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Revelation
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:19 pm

Vasu wrote:
MrBren wrote:
According to La Tribune, AF is poised to order A220 by end of July. A380 are to be replaced either by B787 or A330neo, decision to be made later this year.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/services/transport-logistique/air-france-travaille-sur-une-commande-d-avions-fin-juillet-823498.html

A380 to 787 or A330neo? That’s quite a size difference!

The jump would be A380 to 77W with 787/A330neo used to fill 77W slots.

Still, an A380 is about 40% bigger than a 77W, so they must have decided they don't need the capacity and/or can't afford the capacity given A380's uninspiring economics.
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mig17
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:40 pm

The article says
- A220 to replace the 110 A320 family at AF mainline. Despite AF industry having to invest in the type maintenance.
- All the A380 will leave and AF is considering 789, A330neo and A35K as replacement, but the latter is concidered too expensive fir the task.
- Transavia France is going to or have already order 737Max since the union rejected the common pilot pool between AF and Transavia.
- the A321xlr is also being considered but AF doesn't need the range

I thought the common pilot pool was a go if the snpl union consultation begining today ends well ...
I smeel A330neo "coi" to free up some 77W as A380 replacement.
Last edited by mig17 on Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Vladex
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:52 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
As exciting and welcome an A220 order would be, so disappointing would a a380 replacement order be, especially if it is to be replaced by the 787...

Why not replace it with the a350-1000 or at least the a359? Anything smaller would be ridiculous.


It could be that AF struggles mightily to fill the seats of the 380 at fares it finds acceptable. Using smaller aircraft to make more money is not a new idea. BA started replacing 757s with 319s years ago. viewtopic.php?t=170927


I think people choose A380 in general and are willing to pay for it. I check the price for Toronto - Dubai flight often and A380 EK is significantly bigger than AC 787.
 
Vladex
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:55 pm

blueflyer wrote:
Even though they're the smallest aircraft (read highest seat cost), the A318s would actually be the last to be replaced by A220s as they are younger than the A319s and A320s in the fleet.

Another interesting nugget is that Transavia will probably continue to operate an all-Boeing fleet and that a 737 Max order may be announced as soon as management thinks there's no PR risk involved.

kimimm19 wrote:
Why not replace it with the a350-1000 or at least the a359? Anything smaller would be ridiculous.

The A350-1000 is under consideration however management thinks it is too expensive for the role it would play in the Air France network. There is another thread about an interview with Ben Smith where he explains he wants to simplify thenetwork, particularly in Africa, and replace less-than-daily, one-stop, and circular flights by daily non-stop flights. Smaller aircraft would help...


Is he the guy that switched AC from A320 to 737? and if he did, what kind of strategy was that and what kind of questions did he pose to Boeing?
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:13 pm

mig17 wrote:
The article says
- A220 to replace the 110 A320 family at AF mainline. Despite AF industry having to invest in the type maintenance.
- All the A380 will leave and AF is considering 789, A330neo and A35K as replacement, but the latter is concidered too expensive fir the task.
- Transavia France is going to or have already order 737Max since the union rejected the common pilot pool between AF and Transavia.
- the A321xlr is also being considered but AF doesn't need the range

I thought the common pilot pool was a go if the snpl union consultation begining today ends well ...
I smeel A330neo "coi" to free up some 77W as A380 replacement.


That's how I understand the article as well. With one adjustment. They've considered the A321XLR, but not in the near term. They do state the plane would be good for African capitals, but AF is also saying it might not be the only alternative for this network. Maybe they're waiting to see what Boeing will offer in this segment.

Anyway, a massive A220 order would be very exciting!
 
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zkojq
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:14 pm

DL747400 wrote:
VV wrote:
So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.


If this comes to pass, it will be a wasted opportunity. This should have been a single large order for A220s to be shared between AF and KL, which would have helped rationalize a portion of the short/medium haul fleet and would have improved efficiency.


Yeah this seems silly. To have AFKL ordering CSeries + E2 + MAX (for KL + HV) and NEOs (for AF) doesn't make a lot of sense. OTOH each of the business units (AF, Hop, KL, CityHopper and Transavia) is probably large enough to get decent economies of scale, but you'd think at least that they'd manage to narrow it down to three families of Short Haul jetliners.
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zkojq
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:17 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
They do state the plane would be good for African capitals, but AF is also saying it might not be the only alternative for this network. Maybe they're waiting to see what Boeing will offer in this segment.

From NCE the CSeries can make it a long way into Africa. :scratchchin:


JetBuddy wrote:
Anyway, a massive A220 order would be very exciting!

:checkmark:
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stylo777
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:22 pm

replacing 318/319 with A220 makes totally sense. they have in total 51 frames in their fleet.
I never understood why they actually have the 318. are there any particular AF routes requiring this type? I believe not...
 
VV
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:55 pm

DL747400 wrote:
VV wrote:
So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.


If this comes to pass, it will be a wasted opportunity. This should have been a single large order for A220s to be shared between AF and KL, which would have helped rationalize a portion of the short/medium haul fleet and would have improved efficiency.

The fact that AF and KL seem to be going in different directions on this fleet decision is further evidence that there is no common vision when it comes to decision making within AF/KL. KL now seems to be doing pretty much whatever it wants regardless of whether it makes sense for AF. And well, AF has pretty much always been that way, so at least their are consistent.

AF/KL is the merger that never was and likely never will be.


AFR takes A350 (with Rolls-Royce engines) and KLM takes 787 with GE engines.
 
VV
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:56 pm

Do you think there has been a kind of interference of the French government?
 
petertenthije
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:17 pm

zkojq wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
VV wrote:
So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.


If this comes to pass, it will be a wasted opportunity. This should have been a single large order for A220s to be shared between AF and KL, which would have helped rationalize a portion of the short/medium haul fleet and would have improved efficiency.


Yeah this seems silly. To have AFKL ordering CSeries + E2 + MAX (for KL + HV) and NEOs (for AF) doesn't make a lot of sense. OTOH each of the business units (AF, Hop, KL, CityHopper and Transavia) is probably large enough to get decent economies of scale, but you'd think at least that they'd manage to narrow it down to three families of Short Haul jetliners.

Actually, it might make a bit of sense because:
  • This give AF/KL a better negotiating position with the OEMs, because the OEMs know the order can truly go both ways.
  • It keeps AF and KLM personnel on seperate contracts. If KLM were to fly A320s, then the AF crew will go on strike until both AF and KLM get paid the same. Otherwise that might set a presedent that could cause issues to the unions credibility and negotiating position. And you can bet that AF personnel won’t agree to the wages and workload that are acceptable to KLM crew.
  • It creates technical knowledge on pretty much every airframe available. That might be very usefull for KL/AF engineering and maintenance. Remember, hey do a lot of work for third parties.
  • It does not put all your eggs in one basket. In case one OEM is unable to deliver in a timely manner (insert MAX cough here)

The individual subfleets will be large enough to be sustainable. It’s not like they have subfleeets in the single digits (except perhaps the A380). KLM always said that in their eyes any subfleet of 14 or so can be operated profitably.
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TWA772LR
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:42 pm

Big blow to Embraer, IMO; with AF being an existing Emb customer.

I agree that A330neo or 787 is too small for the A380. AF loves the 77W so maybe they'll come around and sniff around Boeing for the 779.
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jghealey
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:04 pm

VV wrote:
Do you think there has been a kind of interference of the French government?

Why would there be? A220 is Canadian made after all.
 
tomcat
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:06 pm

mig17 wrote:
The article says
- A220 to replace the 110 A320 family at AF mainline. Despite AF industry having to invest in the type maintenance.
- All the A380 will leave and AF is considering 789, A330neo and A35K as replacement, but the latter is concidered too expensive fir the task.
- Transavia France is going to or have already order 737Max since the union rejected the common pilot pool between AF and Transavia.
- the A321xlr is also being considered but AF doesn't need the range


About the replacement of the 110 A320 family, the article says that they will be replaced by a mix of A220 and A320NEO: the A220 would replace the A318/A319 and the A320 would replace the A320 and A321. All in all, they would be ordered in about a 50/50 ratio.
 
tomcat
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:14 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Big blow to Embraer, IMO; with AF being an existing Emb customer.


It's too early to talk about a big blow to Embraer. The E2 is not meant to replace a mainline aircraft like the A319 even though there might be specific cases where the replacement of an A319 by a 195E2 could make sense. The challenge for Embraer is to win the order for the future replacement of the Hop fleet. I believe that they have a good chance of winning this order, unless Hop would go for Mitsubishi. Note that KLM Cityhopper has already selected the E2.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:23 pm

DL747400 wrote:
VV wrote:
So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.


If this comes to pass, it will be a wasted opportunity. This should have been a single large order for A220s to be shared between AF and KL, which would have helped rationalize a portion of the short/medium haul fleet and would have improved efficiency.

The fact that AF and KL seem to be going in different directions on this fleet decision is further evidence that there is no common vision when it comes to decision making within AF/KL. KL now seems to be doing pretty much whatever it wants regardless of whether it makes sense for AF. And well, AF has pretty much always been that way, so at least their are consistent.

AF/KL is the merger that never was and likely never will be.

If either order comes to pass. I can see some E2-190 for the fleet for

If AF is ordering a significant quantity of A220, I am pleasantly shocked! (I'm a Pratt fan).

I hope this order happens. I hope the E2 LOI is firmed.


For the A220, one more potential large order. In today's environment, I am not going to hold my breath.

The engine maintenance will be key for AF. Oh... Interesting complications.

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marcelh
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:31 pm

petertenthije wrote:

This give AF/KL a better negotiating position with the OEMs, because the OEMs know the order can truly go both ways..

KLM is a Boeing stronghold, no matter what. So no better negotiation position.
 
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qf789
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:44 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Big blow to Embraer, IMO; with AF being an existing Emb customer.

I agree that A330neo or 787 is too small for the A380. AF loves the 77W so maybe they'll come around and sniff around Boeing for the 779.


The theory that the A330neo or 787 is too small for the A380 has already been debunked. Qantas replaced MEL-DXB-LHR (an A388) with a 789, MEL-PER-LHR. Many on here said that they wouldn't make any money, lose market share etc however what QF have done is taken the A388 off the route and it should be noted that prior to the 789 taking over LHR ran at a loss for 9 consecutive years, once the 789 took over, it was profitable from virtually day one, plus they have increased their yields and overall LHR is now profitable again, the 789 is printing money for QF, this approach could actually work on a similar scale for other airlines.

Now AF could take a similar approach, some of their A388 routes aren't even daily, this also suggests to me that they struggle to fill it plus it does not return the yields that they want. What we are seeing with 787 operators is they are currently using the 787 to add additional frequencies on top of the existing frequency operated by a larger twin such as the 77W, so in AF's case rather than putting a A388 on lets say CDG-JNB and daily 77W and 3 weekly 789 would do the same job but frequency can be adjusted to meet seasonal demand something that the A388 can not do

The other thing to consider is with the recent MTOW increase on the 789 and 787-10 AF could also be looking at the 787-10, personally I wouldn't rule it out and with it being operated by KLM there is a good chance it may find its way into AF's fleet as well
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TWA772LR
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:11 pm

qf789 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Big blow to Embraer, IMO; with AF being an existing Emb customer.

I agree that A330neo or 787 is too small for the A380. AF loves the 77W so maybe they'll come around and sniff around Boeing for the 779.


The theory that the A330neo or 787 is too small for the A380 has already been debunked. Qantas replaced MEL-DXB-LHR (an A388) with a 789, MEL-PER-LHR. Many on here said that they wouldn't make any money, lose market share etc however what QF have done is taken the A388 off the route and it should be noted that prior to the 789 taking over LHR ran at a loss for 9 consecutive years, once the 789 took over, it was profitable from virtually day one, plus they have increased their yields and overall LHR is now profitable again, the 789 is printing money for QF, this approach could actually work on a similar scale for other airlines.

Now AF could take a similar approach, some of their A388 routes aren't even daily, this also suggests to me that they struggle to fill it plus it does not return the yields that they want. What we are seeing with 787 operators is they are currently using the 787 to add additional frequencies on top of the existing frequency operated by a larger twin such as the 77W, so in AF's case rather than putting a A388 on lets say CDG-JNB and daily 77W and 3 weekly 789 would do the same job but frequency can be adjusted to meet seasonal demand something that the A388 can not do

The other thing to consider is with the recent MTOW increase on the 789 and 787-10 AF could also be looking at the 787-10, personally I wouldn't rule it out and with it being operated by KLM there is a good chance it may find its way into AF's fleet as well

QF still operates the A380 on SYD-SIN-LHR and has the 789 fly PER-LHR because it has the range to do so unlike the A380. AF doesnt need 789-style range because they dont have any ambitions to do a PER-LHR style route. Plus AF already flies the 777 and the jump from 77W to 779 wont be as big of a capacity increase from 77W to 380.
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kimimm19
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:13 pm

VV wrote:
So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.


Is it?

KLM has always been Boeing dominant and AF has been Airbus.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:19 pm

A 787-10 would be a good fit for US and Canada. And why doesn't Air France serve MCO? That is a huge hole in their network.
 
VV
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:33 pm

jghealey wrote:
VV wrote:
Do you think there has been a kind of interference of the French government?

Why would there be? A220 is Canadian made after all.


Doesn't Airbus have 50.01% stake in the partnership "Airbus Canada Limited Partnership"?
 
VV
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:33 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
VV wrote:
So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.


Is it?

KLM has always been Boeing dominant and AF has been Airbus.


E2 is not Boeing (yet), is it?
 
inkjet7
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:35 pm

VV wrote:
So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.


But on the other hand KL(-C) has pilots holding type ratings for 49 Embraers. And, considering the fact that not very many E2's have been sold, they can't have been very expensive.
Last edited by inkjet7 on Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
behramjee
Posts: 4965
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: AF to order A220, replace A380?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:38 pm

AF KL group has officially stated that all B787s going forward are going to KLM exclusively whilst the A350s will go to Air France.

The above has been officially stated by the airline recently whilst this article of La Tribune is not an official source pertaining to the wide body fleet mix decision.

I do believe for sure the A220 will be ordered as Ben was with AC when they ordered it too so he knows the plane’s capabilities very well. Definitely some normal A321Neos will be ordered too which would replace their current aging A321 fleet.

The only two things that need to be seen is :

1. How many A220s would be ordered ? And will it be a mix of 221s / 223s or only 223s.

2. Will the A321neos have a subfleet configuration which has flat beds in J class or not?

For the A380 replacement either A351s or B779s would be ordered and my money would be on the A351 MTOW version.

Also for fleet standardization purposes, wouldn’t it be best if the 9 B789s with AF get transferred over to KL in due course?

If this ended up happening, it would mean AF a decade from now becomes an all airbus operator whilst KL would become an all Boeing one.

AF - 350/320/220 families
KL - 777/787/737 families
Last edited by behramjee on Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1915
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: AF to order A220, replace A380?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:40 pm

I don't get the whole ''we don't need the range'' thing. Do you think anybody needs the range? Nobody in Europe actually needs 6500km of range for an aircraft of that size. Hell LH uses the neo on sub-hour long flights. I assume same goes for SK, BA, IB and all A320neo operators. Besides the 223 has 6k km range as well, and the E-Jets they have also have 4000km+ of range, so I guess they're unnecessary?
A350/CSeries = bae
 
inkjet7
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:32 am

Re: AF to order A220, replace A380?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:49 pm

behramjee wrote:
A
For the A380 replacement either A351s or B779s would be ordered and my money would be on the A351 MTOW version.


AF loves their 777's. They have 70 of them (including the freighters). For fleet commonality a large 777 order would not surprise me at all.
KL's home base is slot restricted and even if a few more slots become available it will soon be slot restricted again. So they likely want/need 777's as well.
 
Jetty
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:55 pm

VV wrote:
jghealey wrote:
VV wrote:
Do you think there has been a kind of interference of the French government?

Why would there be? A220 is Canadian made after all.


Doesn't Airbus have 50.01% stake in the partnership "Airbus Canada Limited Partnership"?

If the French government cares about Airbus orders it's about employment and activities in France, not about profit for Airbus (which is a Dutch company btw).
 
VV
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:02 pm

Jetty wrote:
VV wrote:
jghealey wrote:
Why would there be? A220 is Canadian made after all.


Doesn't Airbus have 50.01% stake in the partnership "Airbus Canada Limited Partnership"?

If the French government cares about Airbus orders it's about employment and activities in France, not about profit for Airbus (which is a Dutch company btw).


It is not so true.
There are now a lot of French in Montreal, transferred from the A380 program.

In addition I would not underestimate the industrial lobbying in France.
 
VV
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:05 pm

marcelh wrote:
petertenthije wrote:

This give AF/KL a better negotiating position with the OEMs, because the OEMs know the order can truly go both ways..

KLM is a Boeing stronghold, no matter what. So no better negotiation position.



I forgot to mention that Embraer Chief Commercial Officer is a former KLM and is Dutch and is most probably based in Amsterdam.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:42 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
VV wrote:
So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.


Is it?

KLM has always been Boeing dominant and AF has been Airbus.

Always? up to the 90s, KLM was Douglas dominant, the only Airline to operate the DC-2 through MD-11. While they had 747s from 1971 onwards, the next Boeing they got was the 733 in 86.

While Air France have operated every Airbus subtype except the 345/346, they've a!so operated various types of the 707, 727, 737, 747, 767, 777 and 787 over the years.
 
Scotron12
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Re: AF to order A220, replace A380?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:10 pm

This is another thread that has mentioned a weight increase for the 787-9 and 787-10.

Where is it and when is it? It started with the Air NZ thread...but there was nothing concrete and certainly no official word from Boeing.
 
DarthLobster
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:40 am

Re: AF to order A220, replace A380?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:15 pm

It’s starting to feel like the Whale is being deliberately driven to extinction.
 
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ER757
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:15 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Big blow to Embraer, IMO; with AF being an existing Emb customer.

I agree that A330neo or 787 is too small for the A380. AF loves the 77W so maybe they'll come around and sniff around Boeing for the 779.

If they say the 350-1000 is too expense, the 779 would seem to be out of their price range as well.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3251
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:17 pm

Vasu wrote:
MrBren wrote:
According to La Tribune, AF is poised to order A220 by end of July. A380 are to be replaced either by B787 or A330neo, decision to be made later this year.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/services/transport-logistique/air-france-travaille-sur-une-commande-d-avions-fin-juillet-823498.html


A380 to 787 or A330neo? That’s quite a size difference!


Not a sbig of a difference as the title suggested. Going from A380 to a220 would be shocking.
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