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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:20 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Vasu wrote:
MrBren wrote:
According to La Tribune, AF is poised to order A220 by end of July. A380 are to be replaced either by B787 or A330neo, decision to be made later this year.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/services/transport-logistique/air-france-travaille-sur-une-commande-d-avions-fin-juillet-823498.html


A380 to 787 or A330neo? That’s quite a size difference!


Not a sbig of a difference as the title suggested. Going from A380 to a220 would be shocking.

Clarified title.

Two subjects:. A220 order and possible replacement of A380 with smaller widebody aircraft.
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kimimm19
Posts: 351
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:21 pm

VV wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
VV wrote:
So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.


Is it?

KLM has always been Boeing dominant and AF has been Airbus.


E2 is not Boeing (yet), is it?


Well as good as with how it influences regional jet orders...
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 346
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:32 pm

AF needs Boeing 777-9
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
VV
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:38 pm

Vasu wrote:
MrBren wrote:
According to La Tribune, AF is poised to order A220 by end of July. A380 are to be replaced either by B787 or A330neo, decision to be made later this year.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/services/transport-logistique/air-france-travaille-sur-une-commande-d-avions-fin-juillet-823498.html


A380 to 787 or A330neo? That’s quite a size difference!


Perhaps AFR will configure the A330neo with 460 seats like Cebu does (read the article)
 
Gangurru
Posts: 68
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:48 pm

OA940 wrote:
I don't get the whole ''we don't need the range'' thing. Do you think anybody needs the range? Nobody in Europe actually needs 6500km of range for an aircraft of that size.


6500km is more than enough for AF to serve its French speaking African network from Paris. In another thread, the AF CEO described its African network as a mess of less than daily flights and complex multi stop routes.

As many AF flights on the African network use widebodies, patterns like this often indicate trade offs between technology and demand. A220s have the potential to sort out this mess by delivering hub to spoke flying.
 
Antarius
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:09 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
VV wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:

Is it?

KLM has always been Boeing dominant and AF has been Airbus.


E2 is not Boeing (yet), is it?


Well as good as with how it influences regional jet orders...


Let's not get carried away here. There are benefits to fleet diversity that dont need conspiracy theories.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
Antarius
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:14 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
VV wrote:
So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.


Is it?

KLM has always been Boeing dominant and AF has been Airbus.


Air France operates 70 777s, which is 35% of their fleet. So not really and they certainly arent looking at A vs B numbers to make fleet decisions.

The A220 makes sense for AF. Fantastic airplane.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
Antarius
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:17 pm

VV wrote:
Do you think there has been a kind of interference of the French government?


Is there any indication of it?
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
PhilMcCrackin
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:23 pm

Vladex wrote:

I think people choose A380 in general and are willing to pay for it. I check the price for Toronto - Dubai flight often and A380 EK is significantly bigger than AC 787.


Obviously not if the French national airline is dumping the A380 and its capacity to reclaim some control over their yields.
 
VV
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:24 pm

Antarius wrote:
VV wrote:
Do you think there has been a kind of interference of the French government?


Is there any indication of it?


No, but I have just realized that the new management at AFR/KLM came from Air Canada. These guys are the same who sealed the deal for C Series back then.

I think this is what I would call the "Canadian connection".

In addition, Delta is Air France's partner, ost probably AFR people already contacted DAL to get some information.
 
FLALEFTY
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:06 pm

The A318 fleet at Air France ranges from 12 to 16 years old, not geriatric, but old enough to consider replacing. I did not check, but I imagine their A319 fleet might be even older. Ordering the A220 makes sense, but AF probably won't get delivery slots until at least 2021 or 2022. However, they might lease some to initiate the transition.

The pressing need in renewing AF's narrowbody fleet seems to be the 5 A321-100's they inherited in Air Inter takeover, which could be the oldest A321's in service. Will this be the impetus for AF's first order for the A32X NEO series? And what about their corporate sibling, KLM? To date, KLM has yet to order the 737MAX series. Will the two airlines get together and negotiate a single narrowbody fleet order? Will they split the order between manufacturers?
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:20 pm

At this point it makes more sense for AF to choose the E195-E2 iso the A220.
Commonality with KLM and HOP! and simplicity, isn't that what the CEO is looking for?

Boeing would be very aggressive on pricing too, they can use the E2 orders.

Ah but wait, a Canadian CEO, a Canadian aircraft...coincidence you think?
The CS300 having the CASM of the A321? The A321CEO maybe, but that's apples to oranges.

Where is EMBSPBR when you need him? Is it not day yet in Sao Jose dos Campos?
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Bhoy
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:25 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
The A318 fleet at Air France ranges from 12 to 16 years old, not geriatric, but old enough to consider replacing. I did not check, but I imagine their A319 fleet might be even older. Ordering the A220 makes sense, but AF probably won't get delivery slots until at least 2021 or 2022. However, they might lease some to initiate the transition

Air France's youngest 319 will be 13 years old in November. Their oldest active 319 (an ex-Air Inter bird) will be 23 years old in September.
Only 5 of the 33 strong 319 fleet are younger than the oldest of the 18 strong 318 fleet. So overall, the 319 fleet is considerably older than the 318 fleet.
 
Beatyair
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:49 pm

It was in the news this week that AF and KLM were trading airplane orders. KLM would have all the 787’s and AF would have all the A350’s and A330’s. So, A350’s and 773’s would pick up the slack of the removed A380’s.
Great to see the A220 maybe coming in.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:50 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:

At this point it makes more sense for AF to choose the E195-E2 iso the A220.
...
Ah but wait, a Canadian CEO, a Canadian aircraft...coincidence you think?


FWIW, AF Industries thinks there are not enough A220s sold yet to make money with it in offering heavy maintenance services to third parties.

What would be the business case to offer such services for the E2 then? ;-)

From the article:

"Même si chez Air France Industrie, on n'est pas très chaud pour l'A220 en raison du nombre de clients de cet avion (plus de 600), beaucoup plus limité évidemment que celui de l'A320 NEO (plus de 6.000)."
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:57 pm, edited 7 times in total.
 
ewt340
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:52 pm

Presumably they are downsizing their capacity and stop selling much discounted fares to focus on profitability. Make total sense for them to go with smaller aircraft.

Also seems like they are keeping their aging A330-200 and refurbished them with new cabin, so maybe A330neo would be on the table since they need cheaper aircraft.

They could probably get more discount if they order both A220 and A330neo at the same time. And maybe some A321XLR in the mix for african expansions.
 
rrbsztk
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:03 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
The A318 fleet at Air France ranges from 12 to 16 years old, not geriatric, but old enough to consider replacing. I did not check, but I imagine their A319 fleet might be even older. Ordering the A220 makes sense, but AF probably won't get delivery slots until at least 2021 or 2022. However, they might lease some to initiate the transition.

The pressing need in renewing AF's narrowbody fleet seems to be the 5 A321-100's they inherited in Air Inter takeover, which could be the oldest A321's in service. Will this be the impetus for AF's first order for the A32X NEO series? And what about their corporate sibling, KLM? To date, KLM has yet to order the 737MAX series. Will the two airlines get together and negotiate a single narrowbody fleet order? Will they split the order between manufacturers?


The bulk of their A319 (27) were delivered 1999 to 2002 plus 1 in 1997 and five in mid 2000s. If deliveries start in 2021 that's ~22 years old when replaced
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:32 pm

VV wrote:
So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.


Well, KL has historically leaned towards Boeing (all but 13 of their 94 aircraft are B; the remaining 13 are a mix A332/333, and some of the A332s are being phased out in favor of the 789 and the 78J), while AF has typically bought Airbus for narrowbodies and mainly Boeing for widebodies with A332/342/388 in service and A359 on order, but the majority of the W/B fleet being 773/789.

So, the Embraer (Boeing Brasil) E2 order for KL and the Airbus A220 (nee Bombardier CS) order for AF isn't entirely surprising.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:39 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

At this point it makes more sense for AF to choose the E195-E2 iso the A220.
...
Ah but wait, a Canadian CEO, a Canadian aircraft...coincidence you think?


FWIW, AF Industries thinks there are not enough A220s sold yet to make money with it in offering heavy maintenance services to third parties.

What would be the business case to offer such services for the E2 then? ;-)

From the article:

"Même si chez Air France Industrie, on n'est pas très chaud pour l'A220 en raison du nombre de clients de cet avion (plus de 600), beaucoup plus limité évidemment que celui de l'A320 NEO (plus de 6.000)."


I wonder if AF reached out to a certain SkyTeam colleague based out of, um, Atlanta re: A220...
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:41 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
The A318 fleet at Air France ranges from 12 to 16 years old, not geriatric, but old enough to consider replacing. I did not check, but I imagine their A319 fleet might be even older. Ordering the A220 makes sense, but AF probably won't get delivery slots until at least 2021 or 2022. However, they might lease some to initiate the transition.


AF still has A318s in service? Age notwithstanding, I'm surprised they'll be the last to be replaced by the A220 considering how few 318s are left in revenue service.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
MBSDALHOU
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Re: AF to order A220

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:51 pm

mig17 wrote:
The article says
- the A321xlr is also being considered but AF doesn't need the range.


I’m curious as to why the would even consider the A321xlr if they state they don’t need the range?

Please correct me if I’m wrong but the whole point of the A321xlr was quite literally the extra range Airbus managed to get. And please don’t think I’m knocking Airbus. All planes are beautiful in their own ways! I’m just extra partial to the 757. She’s a gorgeous plane to me. But I digress.

Why wouldn’t they just go for the A321Neo and the A220-whichever they choose?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AF to order A220

Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:00 am

MBSDALHOU wrote:
mig17 wrote:
The article says
- the A321xlr is also being considered but AF doesn't need the range.


I’m curious as to why the would even consider the A321xlr if they state they don’t need the range?

Please correct me if I’m wrong but the whole point of the A321xlr was quite literally the extra range Airbus managed to get. And please don’t think I’m knocking Airbus. All planes are beautiful in their own ways! I’m just extra partial to the 757. She’s a gorgeous plane to me. But I digress.

Why wouldn’t they just go for the A321Neo and the A220-whichever they choose?

I suspect the xLR is desired for payload at range, not the limit if the range.

In all of this, the A220 order interests me the most. I simply didn't expect it.

Lightsaber
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flee
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Re: AF to order A220

Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:10 am

lightsaber wrote:
I suspect the xLR is desired for payload at range, not the limit if the range.

Yes, the XLR comes with a higher MTOW and they could use that extra weight for additional payload and not extra fuel.
 
TObound
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Re: AF to order A220

Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:30 am

lightsaber wrote:
MBSDALHOU wrote:
mig17 wrote:
The article says
- the A321xlr is also being considered but AF doesn't need the range.


I’m curious as to why the would even consider the A321xlr if they state they don’t need the range?

Please correct me if I’m wrong but the whole point of the A321xlr was quite literally the extra range Airbus managed to get. And please don’t think I’m knocking Airbus. All planes are beautiful in their own ways! I’m just extra partial to the 757. She’s a gorgeous plane to me. But I digress.

Why wouldn’t they just go for the A321Neo and the A220-whichever they choose?

I suspect the xLR is desired for payload at range, not the limit if the range.

In all of this, the A220 order interests me the most. I simply didn't expect it.

Lightsaber


Why not? I think the killer combo strikes again. 223 and 321NEO. B6 is showing the way with this combination.

50 223s and 60 321NEOs would do fantastically for AF mainline.

And 50 221s would be perfect for HOP.
 
MBSDALHOU
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:19 am

Thank you for the response! I honestly wasn’t even thinking of payload. That’s one efficient belly cargo hauler!
 
Dominion301
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:25 am

AF ordering A220s would not surprise me in the least given Ben Smith was still around at AC when they ordered them. Bombardier, why couldn’t you properly manage the CSeries project and not land these big orders back 8 years ago?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AF to order A220

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:14 am

Vasu wrote:
A380 to 787 or A330neo? That’s quite a size difference!

That's the whole point.


kimimm19 wrote:
Why not replace it with the a350-1000 or at least the a359? Anything smaller would be ridiculous.

Based on what?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
kimimm19
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Re: AF to order A220

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:16 am

Antarius wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
VV wrote:
So KLM signed an LoI for E2 and AFR would order A220.

That's interesting.


Is it?

KLM has always been Boeing dominant and AF has been Airbus.


Air France operates 70 777s, which is 35% of their fleet. So not really and they certainly arent looking at A vs B numbers to make fleet decisions.

The A220 makes sense for AF. Fantastic airplane.


And? We are talking about narrowbody... Even if we aren't Airbus chose an aircraft in the 777 like so many other Airbus dominated airlines since their was nothing at the time to compete..
 
mig17
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:11 am

So the group will buy A220, E2, A320n and 737m ... The purshasing department must be unhappy.

A330neo is considered also because AF could do like Lufthansa and negociate the return to Airbus of the 5 A380 AF has on property in exchange of the all A220, A320n and A330n package.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
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Revelation
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:15 pm

OA940 wrote:
I don't get the whole ''we don't need the range'' thing. Do you think anybody needs the range? Nobody in Europe actually needs 6500km of range for an aircraft of that size. Hell LH uses the neo on sub-hour long flights. I assume same goes for SK, BA, IB and all A320neo operators. Besides the 223 has 6k km range as well, and the E-Jets they have also have 4000km+ of range, so I guess they're unnecessary?

There's room for both points of view.

If you're an airline like IE already with a history of 757s on TATL and other long/thin routes, it's a great fit for what you do.

If you're LH who concentrates traffic at large hubs, you're not as enthusiastic as others: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO
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TObound
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:12 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
At this point it makes more sense for AF to choose the E195-E2 iso the A220.
Commonality with KLM and HOP! and simplicity, isn't that what the CEO is looking for?

Boeing would be very aggressive on pricing too, they can use the E2 orders.

Ah but wait, a Canadian CEO, a Canadian aircraft...coincidence you think?
The CS300 having the CASM of the A321? The A321CEO maybe, but that's apples to oranges.

Where is EMBSPBR when you need him? Is it not day yet in Sao Jose dos Campos?


The E2 wouldn't work for mainline AF. The 223 on the other hand could be a 1:1 swap for their 318s and 319s with SWISS like 145 seat config.

The E2 could work for Hop! On the other hand 221s provide easy crew transition, let them upgauge while reducing aircraft count and go from three families to one type. So there's an advantage.

What's surprising here is that Cityhopper went for the E2 and didn't go for the A220 given the whole group's consideration. 35 223s would have allowed them a slight increase in seat count too. Wonder if there are scope issues with Cityhopper.
 
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par13del
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:19 pm

What is the 223 and the 221, trying to understand how they simplify crew transition. If they are of the A220 generation, not sure they have the same cockpit type as the A318/319.
 
TObound
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:38 pm

par13del wrote:
What is the 223 and the 221, trying to understand how they simplify crew transition. If they are of the A220 generation, not sure they have the same cockpit type as the A318/319.


Transition from 221s at Hop! to 223s at mainline Air France. The 220 or E2 won't make a difference going to A320 family.
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:30 pm

This pose concerns regarding the delivery slots.

As much as i would love a huge A220 order (Big fan of this bird), the deliveries would happen in a lot of time, even more if the ramp up is delayed for some reasons.

I would add that the article is cautious, and mentions a potential A223-A320neo 50/50 mix.
Caravelle lover
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:13 pm

par13del wrote:
What is the 223 and the 221, trying to understand how they simplify crew transition. If they are of the A220 generation, not sure they have the same cockpit type as the A318/319.

The A220-100 is written as A221 or 221. The A220-300 is written as A223 or 223. A proposed stretch of a few rows, hypothetical A220-500, is called A225.

Crew transition is not simple. They are different cockpits.

Lightsaber
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lightsaber
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:16 pm

TObound wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
At this point it makes more sense for AF to choose the E195-E2 iso the A220.
Commonality with KLM and HOP! and simplicity, isn't that what the CEO is looking for?

Boeing would be very aggressive on pricing too, they can use the E2 orders.

Ah but wait, a Canadian CEO, a Canadian aircraft...coincidence you think?
The CS300 having the CASM of the A321? The A321CEO maybe, but that's apples to oranges.

Where is EMBSPBR when you need him? Is it not day yet in Sao Jose dos Campos?


The E2 wouldn't work for mainline AF. The 223 on the other hand could be a 1:1 swap for their 318s and 319s with SWISS like 145 seat config.

The E2 could work for Hop! On the other hand 221s provide easy crew transition, let them upgauge while reducing aircraft count and go from three families to one type. So there's an advantage.

What's surprising here is that Cityhopper went for the E2 and didn't go for the A220 given the whole group's consideration. 35 223s would have allowed them a slight increase in seat count too. Wonder if there are scope issues with Cityhopper.

I could see A223 for mainline AF and A221 for Hop!.

What is the limits on HOP!

I'm still excited AF is planning to buy A220s.

With Airbus managing the ramp, we should see dramatic improvement. Now, it takes 18 to 30 months to see that improvement.

Lightsaber
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FLALEFTY
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:59 pm

LaunchDetected wrote:
This pose concerns regarding the delivery slots.

As much as i would love a huge A220 order (Big fan of this bird), the deliveries would happen in a lot of time, even more if the ramp up is delayed for some reasons.

I would add that the article is cautious, and mentions a potential A223-A320neo 50/50 mix.


The Mirabel C-Series assembly line was designed when the C-Series program was projected to be much smaller than it will now be as the A220 under Airbus ownership. Thus the delivery rates for the A220 will be temporarily constrained until Airbus gets the Mobile assembly line up and running in 2020. Even then, it will take Mobile a year or two to ramp up to capacity. I expect AF might be able to get its first delivery slots as early as late-2021 (perhaps swapping delivery slots with Moxy, which is still a proposed airline company as of this writing?).
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:13 pm

A220-100 should be for HOP!. The A220-300 should be for mainline...in a CY150 configuration (such would work both in France and especially on the Caribbean island-hopper network, where I see the A320 as too much plane). The A321XLR could then make sense as the other narrow-body plane in the Air France network, primarily for West Africa.

Keep in mind that while the A220-300 has less range than the A319, it is 7 metric tons lighter. Now, as for the A380...keep in mind that there are only a few routes where AF can really fill the plane and be profitable; it may well be too much plane for AF. The only route where this might be an issue could be JFK (and possibly LAX). On JFK, France in the summer season is currently 2x A380, 1x B77W, 1x B772 (from ORY), and 1x B789. (it's 2x B772, 2x B77W, and 1x A380 in winter unless AF6/7 also is on a B77W). Air France would need to go to likely all B77W to JFK (with one in a W pattern operating CDG-JFK-ORY-JFK-CDG, to off-set some of the lost capacity.

Also, don't forget that Air France needs replacements for its five remaining A343s and 25 B772 aircraft (the oldest B772 in the fleet arrived in 1998). The A350 fleet coming in likely means the A340s and the oldest B772s are as good as gone. This is where the B779 would make sense to start replacing the A388 and oldest B77Ws (remember, Air France was the launch customer of the B77W, ultimately growing to the 43-strong fleet that is the case today). For routes under 5000 nmi, the A330 fleet could be transferred from KLM to Air France while B78Xs come to KLM to knock off both the remaining pax/combi B744s and the Airbus fleet, to make KLM mainline all Boeing.
 
mig17
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:49 pm

lightsaber wrote:
What is the limits on HOP!
Lightsaber

Mainline is above 136 seats.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:49 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
A220-100 should be for HOP!. The A220-300 should be for mainline...in a CY150 configuration (such would work both in France and especially on the Caribbean island-hopper network, where I see the A320 as too much plane). The A321XLR could then make sense as the other narrow-body plane in the Air France network, primarily for West Africa.

Keep in mind that while the A220-300 has less range than the A319, it is 7 metric tons lighter. Now, as for the A380...keep in mind that there are only a few routes where AF can really fill the plane and be profitable; it may well be too much plane for AF. The only route where this might be an issue could be JFK (and possibly LAX). On JFK, France in the summer season is currently 2x A380, 1x B77W, 1x B772 (from ORY), and 1x B789. (it's 2x B772, 2x B77W, and 1x A380 in winter unless AF6/7 also is on a B77W). Air France would need to go to likely all B77W to JFK (with one in a W pattern operating CDG-JFK-ORY-JFK-CDG, to off-set some of the lost capacity.

Also, don't forget that Air France needs replacements for its five remaining A343s and 25 B772 aircraft (the oldest B772 in the fleet arrived in 1998). The A350 fleet coming in likely means the A340s and the oldest B772s are as good as gone. This is where the B779 would make sense to start replacing the A388 and oldest B77Ws (remember, Air France was the launch customer of the B77W, ultimately growing to the 43-strong fleet that is the case today). For routes under 5000 nmi, the A330 fleet could be transferred from KLM to Air France while B78Xs come to KLM to knock off both the remaining pax/combi B744s and the Airbus fleet, to make KLM mainline all Boeing.

I agree AF should be shopping for widebodies. There are many ways they could manage the fleet. I question if they will opperate enough A380s to take a risk on such a small fleet.

For what needs more range than the A223, I agree the xwb is the Narrowbody.

AF will be very interesting to watch.

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flyabr
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:32 pm

I still think an A225 might be in the plans, which would be a nice filler between the A223 and A321!
 
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PHBVF
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:52 pm

flyabr wrote:
I still think an A225 might be in the plans, which would be a nice filler between the A223 and A321!


Read this as "I still thin an Antonov An22 might be in the plans", made me chuckle.
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INFINITI329
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:08 pm

I don't think the 221 is the right airplane for Hop! Looking at their fleet, it is all over the place. For a regional airline, it seems like a lot. Going forward I think AF should figure out which aircraft family best fit HOP!'s needs for the future and build on that. That would be between E2 & MRJ. Advantage E2.
 
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PW100
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Re: AF to order A220

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:11 pm

VV wrote:
Vasu wrote:
MrBren wrote:
According to La Tribune, AF is poised to order A220 by end of July. A380 are to be replaced either by B787 or A330neo, decision to be made later this year.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/services/transport-logistique/air-france-travaille-sur-une-commande-d-avions-fin-juillet-823498.html


A380 to 787 or A330neo? That’s quite a size difference!


Perhaps AFR will configure the A330neo with 460 seats like Cebu does (read the article)


While that is an option for AF, chances of that happening are probably smaller than Trump agreeing with the Paris climate agreement.
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pabloeing
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:17 pm

¿B777X out of the race?
 
kimimm19
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Re: AF to order A220

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:26 pm

LAX772LR wrote:

kimimm19 wrote:
Why not replace it with the a350-1000 or at least the a359? Anything smaller would be ridiculous.

Based on what?



Based on that AF's biggest aircraft would be a a359...

AF has a completely different model to say the US3. AF has one big hub and they aren't focused on frequency. The operate out of one of the largest and popular cities in the world so given their model, their largest aircraft being an a359 is ridiculous.
 
mig17
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Re: AF to order A220

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:07 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:

kimimm19 wrote:
Why not replace it with the a350-1000 or at least the a359? Anything smaller would be ridiculous.

Based on what?



Based on that AF's biggest aircraft would be a a359...

AF has a completely different model to say the US3. AF has one big hub and they aren't focused on frequency. The operate out of one of the largest and popular cities in the world so given their model, their largest aircraft being an a359 is ridiculous.

After the A380, their largest aircraft is the 77W. And it will stay like that until it's time to replace them. Then it will be between A35K and 779.
For now, AF is planning the narrowbody future fleet and geting reed of A380. An A380 is 2 789 (or A339) according to some, so AF is going to replace them with that. The A35K is also considered but deemed to expensive for the job, so we can assume same goes for 779.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AF to order A220

Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:31 pm

mig17 wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:


Based on what?



Based on that AF's biggest aircraft would be a a359...

AF has a completely different model to say the US3. AF has one big hub and they aren't focused on frequency. The operate out of one of the largest and popular cities in the world so given their model, their largest aircraft being an a359 is ridiculous.

After the A380, their largest aircraft is the 77W. And it will stay like that until it's time to replace them. Then it will be between A35K and 779.
For now, AF is planning the narrowbody future fleet and geting reed of A380. An A380 is 2 789 (or A339) according to some, so AF is going to replace them with that. The A35K is also considered but deemed to expensive for the job, so we can assume same goes for 779.

I agree with most of what you said.

The issue of the A35K is a very small cost reduction per passenger. I have read 2% vs. A359 cost reduction per passenger. That isn't enough to up gauge as the yield per seat drops by about that much.

So the question on the 779 is does it have more of a cost drop per seat and is it enough to go larger? The 779 can have higher fixed and variable costs than the A35K and yet be more desirable if the cost per passenger is enough lower.

The A388 was a great idea, it just didn't bring down the cost per seat enough for the size. Ironically, it needed to be bigger (due to the weight and space cost of two decks, cost per passenger wasn't enough lower).

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LAX772LR
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Re: AF to order A220

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:52 am

kimimm19 wrote:
The operate out of one of the largest and popular cities in the world so given their model, their largest aircraft being an a359 is ridiculous.

You don't seem to understand the nature of the question.

I'm well aware of what and how AF operates, just as I'm also aware that neither you, nor any other amateur here, have any idea what constitutes optimal capacity for them; quite simply because you don't have access to anywhere near sufficient quantities (and arguably: quality) of data, to effectively make that conclusion.

I'm not making the case that they'll justify the A359 as their highest capacity airframe, but then again, it's a plausible possibility.
To simply repeat that it's "ridiculous," based on no tangible parameters, is ...well... ridiculous.
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ewt340
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Re: AF to order A220

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:55 am

mig17 wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:


Based on what?



Based on that AF's biggest aircraft would be a a359...

AF has a completely different model to say the US3. AF has one big hub and they aren't focused on frequency. The operate out of one of the largest and popular cities in the world so given their model, their largest aircraft being an a359 is ridiculous.

After the A380, their largest aircraft is the 77W. And it will stay like that until it's time to replace them. Then it will be between A35K and 779.
For now, AF is planning the narrowbody future fleet and geting reed of A380. An A380 is 2 789 (or A339) according to some, so AF is going to replace them with that. The A35K is also considered but deemed to expensive for the job, so we can assume same goes for 779.


Presumably if we look at the time frame on when they would replace their 77W. It would probably be at the start of 2030 upwards. Since they would be keeping them until they are quite old like what they did with A330-200.

So by this time, with rumors about A350neo, it would be more logical for them to go with A351 with commonality to A350-900 and retiring all their B777. So they would only use 2 type of wide-bodies instead of 3. They could also goes with combinations with B781 for shorter routes.

At this rate, B779 wouldn't be a good options though.
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