MIflyer12
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:17 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
I
Furthermore, Air France is the first major global, traditional, western airline that demonstrates significant confidence in this aircraft...


I guess you missed Delta's April 2016 firm order for 75 frames. https://news.delta.com/delta-orders-sta ... r-c-series
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:19 pm

Will all of the Air France A380's be retired in 2022.
 
Olddog
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:19 pm

Someone can remember me when Airbus is supposed to be allowed to get 100 % of the Cseries ?
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Momo1435
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:21 pm

It's interesting that this A220 order has been announced before the overdue large A320neo order, and now also not together as an even bigger deal for Airbus.

So this does suggest that the size and timing of this A220 order is a direct result from waiting too long for the replacement order for the entire A320 family fleet. I would not be surprised if Airbus is also actively talking with the leasing companies to grab some earlier A320neo slots then they can get if they place a direct order with Airbus right now.
 
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:22 pm

marcogr12 wrote:

150seats is not that tight considering its max pax capacity is 160...


150 seats is really tight for a mainline operator. Look at Swiss' seatmap for the 223. They're at 34" for Eurobusiness and 31" for Y.

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Swiss ... _CS300.php

And that's for 145 seats. With 150, it's going to see Y going down to 30" pitch probably. Really doesn't make sense if AF is looking to cut capacity anyway. I thought they would have stuck to 145 like Swiss.

marcogr12 wrote:
Are the 30 options only for the A223 or can AF convert to A221 if they decide there is such a need? Now we have to wait n see what happens with their HOP fleet which is very complex and needs rationalization (ATRs,E-jets,CRJs..)


Options are usually any member of the family with possibly some additional cost if larger members of the family are picked. I am still hoping for 221s to rationalize their HOP fleet or even replace HOP capacity with mainline 221s. Admittedly though, there's labour challenges with putting 220s at HOP.
 
T4thH
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:23 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Carlos01 wrote:
I
Furthermore, Air France is the first major global, traditional, western airline that demonstrates significant confidence in this aircraft...


I guess you missed Delta's April 2016 firm order for 75 frames. https://news.delta.com/delta-orders-sta ... r-c-series


Also Korean Airlines...if we state this as "western". And of course, the Lufthansa Group. as first customer of the A220 (with Swiss).
 
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seemyseems
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Great news for the A220 and AF!! I’m looking forward to flying on this aircraft!

marcelh wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:
Image

What a beauty, congrats to Airbus, Bombardier and AF!

Should be even more beautiful in KLM livery :hissyfit:


I agree :biggrin:
seemyseems in ATL
 
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tlecam
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:25 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
Furthermore, Air France is the first major global, traditional, western airline that demonstrates significant confidence in this aircraft, it has an actual role in their fleet. There's no stopping for the A220 now, it will have a bright future.


In addition to LX???

https://news.delta.com/delta-orders-sta ... r-c-series

https://news.delta.com/delta-extends-ai ... l-aircraft
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
TObound
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:27 pm

T4thH wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Carlos01 wrote:
I
Furthermore, Air France is the first major global, traditional, western airline that demonstrates significant confidence in this aircraft...


I guess you missed Delta's April 2016 firm order for 75 frames. https://news.delta.com/delta-orders-sta ... r-c-series


Also Korean Airlines...if we state this as "western". And of course, the Lufthansa Group. as first customer of the A220 (with Swiss).


And the 45 that Air Canada has on order......

Did people forget that AFKL's CEO was previously AC's COO, when AC ordered the CSeries?
 
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Carlos01
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:31 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Carlos01 wrote:
I
Furthermore, Air France is the first major global, traditional, western airline that demonstrates significant confidence in this aircraft...


I guess you missed Delta's April 2016 firm order for 75 frames. https://news.delta.com/delta-orders-sta ... r-c-series


You're quite right, I did know that Delta ordered these, but somehow just didn't realise there were so many. Yet, in a fleet of close to a 1000 planes, 75 sounds to me more like a try-out. A serious try-out for sure, but a sign of confidence only if they make a top-up. (and if they did make a top up already, please save me from further embarrasment)
 
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Carlos01
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:34 pm

tlecam wrote:
Carlos01 wrote:
Furthermore, Air France is the first major global, traditional, western airline that demonstrates significant confidence in this aircraft, it has an actual role in their fleet. There's no stopping for the A220 now, it will have a bright future.


In addition to LX???

https://news.delta.com/delta-orders-sta ... r-c-series

https://news.delta.com/delta-extends-ai ... l-aircraft


Ok, fine. So shall we agree that with Delta, Air France, Swiss, and Air Baltic, the CS/A22 is now well established? Just get those production lines running, that's all what's needed anymore.

I'll get mi cloth.
 
inkjet7
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:35 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
They would need to acquire or lease a slot pair at JFK to keep that capacity.

Or sell tickets for a 777-9 at a higher average price.
 
inkjet7
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:39 pm

edu2703 wrote:
So, AF orders A220-300 while KLM orders E195-E2.

That's interesting


Maybe AF will get E2's for their HOP! subsidiary. Possibly KL could get A223's to replace their 737-700's :-)
It's called horses for courses.
 
T4thH
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:40 pm

TObound wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:

150seats is not that tight considering its max pax capacity is 160...


150 seats is really tight for a mainline operator. Look at Swiss' seatmap for the 223. They're at 34" for Eurobusiness and 31" for Y.

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Swiss ... _CS300.php

And that's for 145 seats. With 150, it's going to see Y going down to 30" pitch probably. Really doesn't make sense if AF is looking to cut capacity anyway. I thought they would have stuck to 145 like Swiss.

marcogr12 wrote:
Are the 30 options only for the A223 or can AF convert to A221 if they decide there is such a need? Now we have to wait n see what happens with their HOP fleet which is very complex and needs rationalization (ATRs,E-jets,CRJs..)


Options are usually any member of the family with possibly some additional cost if larger members of the family are picked. I am still hoping for 221s to rationalize their HOP fleet or even replace HOP capacity with mainline 221s. Admittedly though, there's labour challenges with putting 220s at HOP.


To make it short. regarding HOP!. We are not talking about scope clauses it is several times more worse. It is law. In the 90th, several laws started in France to protect the small regional airlines from the big airlines. Regional airlines are only allowed, to fly birds with less than 100 seats. AF is not allowed to fly birds with less than 100 seats (but is allowed to own regional airlines, like hOP1):. It will be stupid to downsize the PAX iof an A220-100 to less than 100 seats, you will fly around with a big discount and no benefits. Please note, Europe is Europe and not US, business or first class just does not work. Just fly inside of Europe with one class, everything else is just only wasting of place.
Last edited by T4thH on Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Bricktop
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:42 pm

fcogafa wrote:
If the A220 wasn't around, AFR would have ordered A319NEOs at a higher cost, so is it really a great gain for Airbus?

I would say absolutely yes. It adds a lot of credibility to one line, and they can use the A319 slots to make A321s (at a much higher premium).
 
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:45 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
tlecam wrote:
Carlos01 wrote:
Furthermore, Air France is the first major global, traditional, western airline that demonstrates significant confidence in this aircraft, it has an actual role in their fleet. There's no stopping for the A220 now, it will have a bright future.


In addition to LX???

https://news.delta.com/delta-orders-sta ... r-c-series

https://news.delta.com/delta-extends-ai ... l-aircraft


Ok, fine. So shall we agree that with Delta, Air France, Swiss, and Air Baltic, the CS/A22 is now well established? Just get those production lines running, that's all what's needed anymore.

I'll get mi cloth.

JetBlue is just as important.

Now the type just needs more LCCs. Spirit is considering. I personally think EasyJet should consider the type too. Then time for more Asian airlines...

But AF buying a Pratt sends a great message.

Lightsaber
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:50 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Carlos01 wrote:
I
Furthermore, Air France is the first major global, traditional, western airline that demonstrates significant confidence in this aircraft...


I guess you missed Delta's April 2016 firm order for 75 frames. https://news.delta.com/delta-orders-sta ... r-c-series


You're quite right, I did know that Delta ordered these, but somehow just didn't realise there were so many. Yet, in a fleet of close to a 1000 planes, 75 sounds to me more like a try-out. A serious try-out for sure, but a sign of confidence only if they make a top-up. (and if they did make a top up already, please save me from further embarrasment)

Errr... DL is excercising options in small lots. So far they firmed twenty. So a top off already. KE rumored to be topping off. JetBlue and AirBaltic have already increased orders.

Oh... Why is everyone forgetting AC (including myself)?

Lightsaber
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TObound
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:54 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Oh... Why is everyone forgetting AC (including myself)?


See my post above.

And AC is particularly important given Ben Smith's background. He was COO when AC ordered the CSeries.
Last edited by TObound on Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:54 pm

Definitely a great thing for the A220 program. Now the only legacy group not having them on order in Europe is IAG but I would not be surprised to see an A221 order.
Wish the City Council in Toronto would have allowed the runway extension it would have been beautiful seeing a PD A220 with the Toronto Skyline in the background.
 
T4thH
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:55 pm

Bricktop wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
If the A220 wasn't around, AFR would have ordered A319NEOs at a higher cost, so is it really a great gain for Airbus?

I would say absolutely yes. It adds a lot of credibility to one line, and they can use the A319 slots to make A321s (at a much higher premium).


Sorry, but this is wrong. The new generation engines just do not accordingly work on small downsized jets as A319 Neo or B737 Max 7. They are first severl tons heavier, have more drag, are around 50% more expensive and maintenance costs are also much higher. Fuel reduction is limited, for them, as they are regular used for short haul flights and during start and landing, there is no or a limited benefit. The higher capital costs just kill the around 9% benefit for these two birds.

Air France will not have ordered the A319 Neo, the old A319ceo would have had a bigger benefit. Even AF will have learned of the A318 "disaster."..

There is a small but existing demand for the A319 Neo; hot and extreme high airports.
 
T4thH
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:01 pm

lightsaber wrote:

Errr... DL is excercising options in small lots. So far they firmed twenty. So a top off already. KE rumored to be topping off. JetBlue and AirBaltic have already increased orders.

Oh... Why is everyone forgetting AC (including myself)?

Lightsaber


Sorry, but...these 20 are ADDITIONAL NEW ORDERS, they have still not taken any of the 50 options,
 
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:06 pm

T4thH wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Errr... DL is excercising options in small lots. So far they firmed twenty. So a top off already. KE rumored to be topping off. JetBlue and AirBaltic have already increased orders.

Oh... Why is everyone forgetting AC (including myself)?

Lightsaber


Sorry, but...these 20 are ADDITIONAL NEW ORDERS, they have still not taken any of the 50 options,

Even better. Do the new orders have options/purchase rights?
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:19 pm

[quote]Air France will not have ordered the A319 Neo, the old A319ceo would have had a bigger benefit. Even AF will have learned of the A318 "disaster."[/unquote]

With the A319CEO no longer available, what other 150 seaters are there?
 
T4thH
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:19 pm

lightsaber wrote:
T4thH wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Errr... DL is excercising options in small lots. So far they firmed twenty. So a top off already. KE rumored to be topping off. JetBlue and AirBaltic have already increased orders.

Oh... Why is everyone forgetting AC (including myself)?

Lightsaber


Sorry, but...these 20 are ADDITIONAL NEW ORDERS, they have still not taken any of the 50 options,

Even better. Do the new orders have options/purchase rights?


If you are talking about Delta; they have firm additional ordered 15 A220 31-Dec-2018 and firm addition 5 on 18-Jun-2019. According Delta Q2 publication, no additional options or purchase rights have been taken.

According AF A220-300 order. 60 firm, 30 options and 30 purchase rights.
 
inkjet7
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:22 pm

fcogafa wrote:
Air France will not have ordered the A319 Neo, the old A319ceo would have had a bigger benefit. Even AF will have learned of the A318 "disaster."[/unquote]

With the A319CEO no longer available, what other 150 seaters are there?


An E195 E2 seats a little less.
 
T4thH
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:30 pm

fcogafa wrote:
Air France will not have ordered the A319 Neo, the old A319ceo would have had a bigger benefit. Even AF will have learned of the A318 "disaster."[/unquote]

With the A319CEO no longer available, what other 150 seaters are there?

In 2018 still some A319ceo have been ordered (even a single one by Lufthasa group), there are still some left in production, less or more all for China. They essential need them (for their hot and high airports). AA is in last month has bought many used A319ceo, seems they try to get all, on the mayrket they can get and are not too old. There is a big secondary market for the A319ceo, used A319ceo are requested/demanded. There are still many new A319ceo left, who are young/not too old. As also there are many B737 700 left, who are also young.

And there was never a secondary market and is no secondary market for the A318. Even few month old A318 have been scrapped for parts, as it was impossible to sell them.
 
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:58 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
Furthermore, Air France is the first major global, traditional, western airline that demonstrates significant confidence in this aircraft, it has an actual role in their fleet.


I'd count Delta as a major global traditional western airline, wouldn't you?
 
INFINITI329
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:06 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
edu2703 wrote:
So, AF orders A220-300 while KLM orders E195-E2.

That's interesting


Maybe AF will get E2's for their HOP! subsidiary. Possibly KL could get A223's to replace their 737-700's :-)
It's called horses for courses.


They should standardize the fleet around E2s (175s & 190/195s)
 
kayik
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:20 pm

TObound wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
How large would the 220 backlog have to grow before Airbus would consider
adding a 3rd production line in Europe?


Probably at least double what it is now. They have plenty of room to grow in Mirabel and Mobile.

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/airbus-new ... 20934.html
 
LX2990
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:35 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
Furthermore, Air France is the first major global, traditional, western airline that demonstrates significant confidence in this aircraft, it has an actual role in their fleet.

And what is with swiss? They started 3 years ago to replace all their RJ100 with the CSeries aka A220-100/300
 
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:37 pm

KLM should definitely drop E2.
 
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:02 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
I stopped writing on this forum a few months ago as all slightly controversial (and hence interesting) posts get deleted, but with this piece of news, I just can't keep quiet! :-)

Fantastic news for Bombardier, for Airbus, Air France, AND Air Baltic! Air Baltic was the sole airline that decided to go from 30-40 mixed frames to 70-80 frame single planetype of A223. Now everyone must be thinking that - boy, the CEO is a flippin' genius! And at least according to Air Baltic, their B733/5 fleet has an average fuelburn of 3000 litres per hour. The A223 has 2200. That's 25+% improvement. No wonder this is a no-brainer.

Furthermore, Air France is the first major global, traditional, western airline that demonstrates significant confidence in this aircraft, it has an actual role in their fleet. There's no stopping for the A220 now, it will have a bright future. This also more or less nails down the A220-500, unless of course Airbus thinks it competes too much with the A320.

One thing that many seem to overlook, is the fact that the CS-series/A220 is the only aircraft in the sky today which has been designed for the latest generation engines from the belly up. So it will not have any issues with pitch control, or wiring, or rudder or stabilizor - everything fits guaranteed. It's just perfect. Not to mention it has proven to be very reliable.

Sorry if I'm getting a bit emotional with this, but I've been flying with this bird for the past year almost every week - and I just have not been able to understand, why the heck this is not selling like hotcakes? Well, it will from now on. Ironically, the MAX-story is the best thing ever happened to it. And that coming from the company who wanted to kill the whole program. Call it what you will, but to me it sounds like... k.... kar.... *cough". Sorry. You'll get the picture.


I wouldn’t say AF is the first major western global carrier. DL has them as well.
 
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Carlos01
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:02 pm

LX2990 wrote:
Carlos01 wrote:
Furthermore, Air France is the first major global, traditional, western airline that demonstrates significant confidence in this aircraft, it has an actual role in their fleet.

And what is with swiss? They started 3 years ago to replace all their RJ100 with the CSeries aka A220-100/300


Agreed, Swiss was the launch customer, cudos for that. The Swiss in general are very good at whatever they are doing, provided that they have the right course. Swissair did exactly what the management wanted, very successfully, very efficiently, just the path was wrong - hence the effect was wrong.

Anyway the army knives and the cheese is great! :-)
 
TObound
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:16 pm

kayik wrote:
TObound wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
How large would the 220 backlog have to grow before Airbus would consider
adding a 3rd production line in Europe?


Probably at least double what it is now. They have plenty of room to grow in Mirabel and Mobile.

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/airbus-new ... 20934.html


He's a bit sensational......

Airbus probably wants to protect the land just to have options. I wouldn't read that as an A350 or Eurofighter assembly line in Canada.

The broader point holds. They wouldn't build another line elsewhere until they substantially fix and develop Mobile and Mirabel.
 
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Revelation
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:35 pm

seahawk wrote:
It will be costly, but cost well spent, as higher production rates unlock economy of scales advantages that make the plane even more competitive. If they can bring it to around 25 frames per months on 2 lines, they should be well set.

Sure, but it's no small ask for the rest of the supply chain to double their output by a factor of two, or actually 2.5 since the original target BBD set was 10/month.

Then you need to feel you can reliably sell 300/year for long enough to pay off all the facilities needed to double the scale of the production line.

And then we have all the strategy issues around the Airbus/BBD/IQ partnership to consider.

Above it was written the current plan is to get to 14/month in 2024.

It'll be interesting to see if an improved plan gets put into place or not.
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TObound
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Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It will be costly, but cost well spent, as higher production rates unlock economy of scales advantages that make the plane even more competitive. If they can bring it to around 25 frames per months on 2 lines, they should be well set.

Sure, but it's no small ask for the rest of the supply chain to double their output by a factor of two, or actually 2.5 since the original target BBD set was 10/month.

Then you need to feel you can reliably sell 300/year for long enough to pay off all the facilities needed to double the scale of the production line.

And then we have all the strategy issues around the Airbus/BBD/IQ partnership to consider.

Above it was written the current plan is to get to 14/month in 2024.

It'll be interesting to see if an improved plan gets put into place or not.


They don't need to increase production yet. Look at a simplistic ramp of increasing each site by 1 a/c per month each year. Start with 5 per month by the end of this year for Mirabel and 0 for Mobile, proceeding to 6 for Mirabel and 1 for Mobile by the end of 2020 and so on. You end up with over 700 total frrames produced by the end of 2024. Or a capacity of ~600 between the start of 2020 and the end of 2024.

Their order book also has lots of wishy-washy orders (Odyssey, Republic, Red Wings, Braathens, Ilyushin, Gulf Air). About 100 or so orders that are doubtful. So that makes the real backlog as of today about ~430. That leaves plenty of room for DL, B6 and AC to up their orders and possibly even 1-2 more larger customers jumping in before Airbus even entertains ramping further, let alone steepening the ramp or adding a new production site. That said, they are getting close. If some of those ambiguous orders actually turn real, they'll quickly end up in a place where they need to ramp higher and/or faster.

I don't think the limiting factor here is the supply chain. Their suppliers will deliver if asked. Happily. They now have more business than they could have ever hoped for with BBD. The issue here is still demand. Airbus needs more orders and customers to justify further investment. They'll also need to sort out the program ownership issues with Investment Quebec and Bombardier before they really commit to substantial investment. They aren't really rough problems to have though.

On topic, the rough math above says that Air France could get all its 60 frames by the end of 2024 if they want.
 
TObound
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm

MrBren wrote:
KLM should definitely drop E2.


Why? They probably got a fantastic deal. And are probably getting MRO rights too. Not to mention their existing pool of E-Jet crews.
 
JamesCousins
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:55 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
edu2703 wrote:
So, AF orders A220-300 while KLM orders E195-E2.

That's interesting


Maybe AF will get E2's for their HOP! subsidiary. Possibly KL could get A223's to replace their 737-700's :-)
It's called horses for courses.


They should standardize the fleet around E2s (175s & 190/195s)


I hate to break it to you, but fleet wide standardisation is out of the window with this order and on large enough sub-fleets no where near as big of a deal as people would think...
Q400, A320-200, A321-200, 737-500, 737-800, 747-400, 757-200, 787-9 // FCA, TOM, TUI, MON, MT, BA, VS, DL, BE, X9, OLY
 
filipinoavgeek
Posts: 255
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:10 pm

Considering Air France, the flag carrier of France (a country so closely associated with Airbus) is already retiring their A380s just three years from now, I fear that it won't be long before other airlines decide to call time quickly and by 2025 we'll be down to just a handful of A380 operators in the world. I mean, if even the Europeans don't want their A380s anymore, then who else would?

And among all these news, where do we expect retired A380s to go? It seems at the moment only British Airways is really interested in buying a sizable number of used planes and even then only at a good price. Does that mean that in just a few years, A380s will become a common sight in scrapyards around the world?
 
mig17
Posts: 229
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:20 pm

AF current medium haul fleet is composed of 114 planes:
20 212 seats A321
43 174-178 seats A320
33 142-143 seats A319
18 131seats A318

With 60 firm 150 seats A223 you cover all the A318 and A319 replacement but also retirement of 9 A320. With 30 options, it is almost all of the A320 which will be covered. And 30 purshase rights also covers the 20 A321. Or it allows growth and/or transitionning some Hop! Flights to mainline. In this case, 20 A321neo + 20 A321xlr could replace 20 seats A321, free up some A332.

The 30 incoming 324 seats A359 will replace with more seats the 5 remaining 275 seats A343 and the 25 280-321 seats 77E.

After 2025 AF fleet could look like:
120 A223
40 A321n ?
15 A332
10 789
30 A359 (+20 options?)
43 77W
Last edited by mig17 on Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
aryonoco
Posts: 673
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 1:51 am

Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:25 pm

Congratulations to Airbus and AF.

Great order for the A220. Surely the plane is now well established and has a chance to become a mainstream player as opposed to a niche.

If the Spirit order comes through sometime within the next 6 months, Airbus will have to look at increasing the production rate. I think a QF order is also possible sometime next year.

Question 1: How difficult would it be to ramp up production at Mobile to 10 per month?
Question 2: At what point can Airbus buy out Bombardier and the other partners?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:34 pm

I have to wonder if Airbus might send a frame out to BOG to test hot and high performance...and try to entice a customer like Avianca for both longer routes out of BOG and for regional Central American routes. This seems like a perfect plane for Central American routes. Also, might either variant ever be possible out of SDU in Brazil? (The biggest plane this airport can handle is the A320neo, and it has arguably the shortest runways in the world for mainline planes.) I'm thinking about the SDU-CGH shuttle for JJ, not AD, as AD is likely all-in with the hometown Embraer.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:35 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
Considering Air France, the flag carrier of France (a country so closely associated with Airbus) is already retiring their A380s just three years from now, I fear that it won't be long before other airlines decide to call time quickly and by 2025 we'll be down to just a handful of A380 operators in the world. I mean, if even the Europeans don't want their A380s anymore, then who else would?

And among all these news, where do we expect retired A380s to go? It seems at the moment only British Airways is really interested in buying a sizable number of used planes and even then only at a good price. Does that mean that in just a few years, A380s will become a common sight in scrapyards around the world?

Right now, there is no demand. The premium paid for connecting traffic has dropped, so fewer connecting J or other premium passengers (partially due to business jets).

So the few made will only continue on at a few carriers. With Emirates marginal profits, I fully expect them to have to drop the fraction of connecting passengers, which is a bitter pill to swallow.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
beechnut
Posts: 751
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:05 am

Scorpio wrote:
Carlos01 wrote:
Furthermore, Air France is the first major global, traditional, western airline that demonstrates significant confidence in this aircraft, it has an actual role in their fleet.


I'd count Delta as a major global traditional western airline, wouldn't you?


Or Air Canada with their order for 45 A220-300s.

Beech
 
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sergegva
Posts: 216
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:25 am

Is it a firm order, as most media say, or a MOU as the new thread's title is saying?
 
many321
Posts: 295
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:15 am

Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:13 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I have to wonder if Airbus might send a frame out to BOG to test hot and high performance...and try to entice a customer like Avianca for both longer routes out of BOG and for regional Central American routes. This seems like a perfect plane for Central American routes. Also, might either variant ever be possible out of SDU in Brazil? (The biggest plane this airport can handle is the A320neo, and it has arguably the shortest runways in the world for mainline planes.) I'm thinking about the SDU-CGH shuttle for JJ, not AD, as AD is likely all-in with the hometown Embraer.


I was surprised that AV didn't swap the A319Neo to A220-100/300 when they amended their order. I think the situation they're at the moment perhaps prevented them for adding the A220 into their fleet. However, I do agree Airbus should send either variant to test out its performance in Central and South America. Plus having an A220-100 on its fleet could prove to be a great asset for them to start new long thin routes to second-tier airports in North and South America from its main hubs in El Dorado and San Romero (SAL).
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:46 am

I think in hindsight, Boeing will regret not moving on Bombardier before Airbus. I know they have a lot of irons in the fire right now. I'm a Boeing fan, but IMO the A220 series is going to bury the E2.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1477
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Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:18 am

lightsaber wrote:
Oh... Why is everyone forgetting AC (including myself)?

Lightsaber


I recall a couple of months ago you bringing up a threshold order level before the lease market opens up. This AF order probably took the A220 over the threshold. Possibly Spirit or similar really needed to do a lease deal vs direct order, now leasing is approaching viable.
 
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ikolkyo
Posts: 2663
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: AF signs MOU for 60 A220 plus 30 options and 30 purchase rights, A380's to be retired by 2022

Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:25 am

EvanWSFO wrote:
I think in hindsight, Boeing will regret not moving on Bombardier before Airbus. I know they have a lot of irons in the fire right now. I'm a Boeing fan, but IMO the A220 series is going to bury the E2.


I think they already regret it.
 
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adambrau
Posts: 263
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: AF to order A220, replace A380 with 787 or A350?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:33 am

inkjet7 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
They would need to acquire or lease a slot pair at JFK to keep that capacity.

Or sell tickets for a 777-9 at a higher average price.


And/Or...

The A380's are too big for the terminal, and although AF fills 2x per day in summer only management knows what the yields are. Come to JFK any day between 4-6pm when 007 and 019 (777) to ORY are checking in and departing within 30 minutes and tell me how many customers look happy at the line they have to wait in. I love flying the A380 when I am in it but JFK T1 is not built to handle a quality A380 experience that AirFrance sells to its customers IMHO.
Let's keep the skies friendly.

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