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LondonXtreme
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Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:30 pm

As we know, LHR is a OW hub. But, some *A members such as UA and AC still have more flights to LHR compare to other *A hub in Europe like FRA.

However, DL has far less daily departure from LHR than what AA and UA have. I know the close relationship between DL and AF/KL with JV, will we see DL adding more flight to LHR in next few years?
 
Jetty
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:37 pm

There is a reason for this: DL has a JV with VS while *A carriers have no partner at LHR. Also DL has dozens of flights to AMS and CDG which are better located transfer airports for the UK and northwest Europe from North America than LH-group airlines hubs.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:39 pm

Don't forget LH has a JV with both AC and UA, allowing them to cover specific frequencies and destinations to and from FRA.

Also, DL has a JV with Virgin Atlantic.

DL would need more slots to add more LHR flights. Pretty sure they don't have any spare at the moment.
 
Sightseer
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:43 pm

Another reason I'd point out for DL being smaller at LHR than AA and UA is that while its competitors have been flying to LHR for close to 30 years, DL was legally barred from serving LHR until 2008. Everything it has there, it's acquired in just over 11 years, while up until then it was free to build up its CDG ops. NW was in the same boat and made a corresponding push at AMS.
 
flybry
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:50 pm

What’s the market share for the top 10 airlines at LHR?
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:08 pm

Should DL restart inter-europe service in LHR after Brexit?
 
LondonXtreme
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:10 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Don't forget LH has a JV with both AC and UA, allowing them to cover specific frequencies and destinations to and from FRA.

Also, DL has a JV with Virgin Atlantic.

DL would need more slots to add more LHR flights. Pretty sure they don't have any spare at the moment.

Although DL has JV with VS at LHR, also has JV with AF at CDG and JV with KL at AMS. The fact is that the overall flights for DL+VS are still far less than DL+AF or DL+KL. But LHR is where the money is. AMS can't compare with LHR in terms of premium traffic.
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:19 pm

LondonXtreme wrote:
As we know, LHR is a OW hub. But, some *A members such as UA and AC still have more flights to LHR compare to other *A hub in Europe like FRA.

However, DL has far less daily departure from LHR than what AA and UA have. I know the close relationship between DL and AF/KL with JV, will we see DL adding more flight to LHR in next few years?


DL has already tried two very tough markets from LHR when the JV with VS were enacted in 2014 and those were EWR and PHL. They also tried LHR-MIA on a 764 back in like 2011 and that failed.

I think DL is best staying from hubs to LHR right now. AA operates RDU-LHR and should they'd ever drop that I'm sure DL would swoop in. But that's all I could really see at this point.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:22 pm

LondonXtreme wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Don't forget LH has a JV with both AC and UA, allowing them to cover specific frequencies and destinations to and from FRA.

Also, DL has a JV with Virgin Atlantic.

DL would need more slots to add more LHR flights. Pretty sure they don't have any spare at the moment.

Although DL has JV with VS at LHR, also has JV with AF at CDG and JV with KL at AMS. The fact is that the overall flights for DL+VS are still far less than DL+AF or DL+KL. But LHR is where the money is. AMS can't compare with LHR in terms of premium traffic.


So, you're point is that VS is smaller than BA at LHR? That's a brilliant insight.

Look at the shares of U.S.-LON traffic BA+AA, VS+DL, and UA.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:27 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Should DL restart inter-europe service in LHR after Brexit?


Why? That's what AF/KL are for.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
questions
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:29 pm

LondonXtreme wrote:
As we know, LHR is a OW hub. But, some *A members such as UA and AC still have more flights to LHR compare to other *A hub in Europe like FRA.

However, DL has far less daily departure from LHR than what AA and UA have. I know the close relationship between DL and AF/KL with JV, will we see DL adding more flight to LHR in next few years?


I'd like to clarify your question. Is it:

While UA and AC both have more flights to LHR than to their Star Alliance partners' hubs, Delta does not. Will Delta be adding more flights to LHR in the next few years?

Is this correct?

Throwing AC into the question is a bit confusing unless you're asking about LHR-North America flights in which case I'd want to include AM as well. But it appears you are interested in LHR-USA flights. Is this correct?

First I think we need some data. How many flights LHR-USA are flown by:
- AA
- DL
- DL+VS
- UA

Notes: 1) I did not include AA+BA because we know they have a boatload of flights. 2) I included DL+VS because of their JV. 3) I did not include UA+AC because it appears you are asking about LHR-USA.

As another poster stated, Delta was late to the game at LHR vs AA and UA due to not winning/competing for PA and TW routes into LHR and being prohibited from flying into LHR since only two US airlines were allowed to serve LHR (all others served LGW).

With the addition of a third runway at LHR, VS and other airlines may bid for additional slots. The extent to which DL+VS wants to use those slots for LHR-USA is unknown. It is also unknown to the armchair quarterbacks on here to what degree the LHR-USA market can absorb more flights without eroding margins.

So I think a safe answer is that Delta would like to add more flights LHR-USA along with their partner VS but not to the extent they are vying to over take AA+BA in marketshare.
 
Cunard
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:32 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Should DL restart inter-europe service in LHR after Brexit?


No and why should they?

Delta has AF/KLM at CDG and AMS for that!

Why would Brexit be involved?

Yet another one of your whacky suggestions, your unbelievable!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
triple3driver
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:40 pm

With the JV with VS and all of Skyteam, along with the lack of slots at Heathrow there just isn't really the need or even possibility for that many more flights to Heathrow, and as mentioned above, all the LHR flights were built up over the last decade, so it's natural that network isn't as large. I wouldn't expect anything other than simple upgauging, although that's likely to be limited in the future as well
If you can walk away from it intact, it was a good landing!
 
notconcerned
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:59 pm

LondonXtreme wrote:
Although DL has JV with VS at LHR, also has JV with AF at CDG and JV with KL at AMS. The fact is that the overall flights for DL+VS are still far less than DL+AF or DL+KL. But LHR is where the money is. AMS can't compare with LHR in terms of premium traffic.


Unclear why you're comparing DL/VS with DL/AF/KL. VS doesn't have any narrowbodies, so that limits its ability to carry any significant onward connections that AF/KL can carry. DL/VS is mostly O&D market.

UA + *A at LHR also has a lot more onward European connection than DL/VS + ST.
 
johns624
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:15 am

chunhimlai wrote:
Should DL restart inter-europe service in LHR after Brexit?
No, they are waiting until the new 6 runway airport at Exeter is open and then they are going to make that their European hub and dehub AMS and CDG. Ed Bastien told me that just the other day.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:10 am

Delta operates N/S to all of their hubs and Virgin serves all the major cities. Sounds pretty well covered to me for delta especially since they only need it for o&d it's not a connection city . Delta is super large at CDG and ams those are where transfers can happen
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:39 am

johns624 wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Should DL restart inter-europe service in LHR after Brexit?
No, they are waiting until the new 6 runway airport at Exeter is open and then they are going to make that their European hub and dehub AMS and CDG. Ed Bastien told me that just the other day.


@chunhimlai... he's joking. EXE intl will be Moxy's new TAT hub.
 
Andy33
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:05 am

There's history too. LHR used to house a Star Alliance hub when British Midland was around. So other Star Alliance airlines obtained perhaps more slots than the O&D justified at the time because there was ample feed available from BD. As BD started its downhill slide and was first taken into the Lufthansa Group and then sold off altogether to IAG/BA, some of their LHR slots were retained by Lufthansa Group so there are plenty of flights from LHR to Brussels, Munich, Frankfurt and Vienna. In the meantime O&D traffic between North America and London has only increased, so UA and AC have every incentive to hold on to their slots, quite apart from the existence of more *A European connections than legacy carriers would normally have provided.

When VS started operations from LHR, their route planning seemed to be "find somewhere longhaul BA goes, wel'll go there too". Sometimes this turned out well for them, more often it was less profitable than they hoped, and in many years the airline was a pot of red ink. The sale of 49% to Delta followed by the more recent 30% to AF/KL has led to a refocussing on US destinations. As a result there aren't many flights that offer connecting opportunities across LHR on VS or DL metal throughout. Traffic needing onward connections in Europe goes via AMS or CDG instead of LHR.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:08 am

N649DL wrote:
DL has already tried two very tough markets from LHR when the JV with VS were enacted in 2014 and those were EWR and PHL. They also tried LHR-MIA on a 764 back in like 2011 and that failed.

I think DL is best staying from hubs to LHR right now. AA operates RDU-LHR and should they'd ever drop that I'm sure DL would swoop in. But that's all I could really see at this point.

DL also flies PDX-LHR with its own metal, and that superficially seems to be doing just fine.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Ryanair01
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:49 am

Regulatory history is basically why.

Up until not so long ago, access to Heathrow from the US was heavily regulated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_II_Agreement

Under Bermuda 2, only Pan Am and TWA could fly to LHR. In 1990/91 Pan Am sold this authority to United and TWA to American. Both of these operations dated way back to the 1940s, so included lots of slots etc.

By the time Delta got access 60 years after the PA/UA and TW/AA operations had started, LHR was basically full. So, they've had to piece together whatever unwanted slots they can get, which is far less than AA and UA have.

Delta's response was buying into VS and their JV. VS has refocused on the US, which boosts the number of slots that DL can slap their code on. So you can imagine DL adding LHR flights if they can get slots.

As mentioned above, London is less relevant as a connecting hub (apart from AA/BA), but the market (rather like NYC) is big enough to cope without needing lots of transfer traffic.
 
jfk777
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:42 am

Delta's LHR limited operations are the primary reason they purchased 49% of Virgin Atlantic from Singapore Airlines. This allowed Delta to bulk up their LHR operations from both coasts, DL's own flights are from their hubs. AA & UA purchased large exist operations at LHR, Delta has had to built their operations one or two routes at a time. Merging with NW helped adding Detroit and MSP flights to their JFK & ATL plus BOS.
 
theasianguy
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:01 pm

questions wrote:
First I think we need some data. How many flights LHR-USA are flown by:
- AA
- DL
- DL+VS
- UA


AA: 21 daily: (4x JFK, 4x ORD, 4x DFW, 2x PHL, 2x CLT, 2x LAX, 1x MIA, 1x RDU, 1x PHX)
VS: 17 daily: (6x JFK, 2x BOS, 2x LAX, 2x SFO, 1x EWR, 1x IAD, 1x ATL, 1x LAS, 1x SEA)
UA: 17 daily: (5x EWR, 3x IAD, 3x ORD, 2x IAH, 2x SFO, 1x LAX, 1x DEN)
DL: 10 daily: (2x JFK, 2x DTW, 2x ATL, 1x BOS, 1x MSP, 1x SLC, 1x PDX)
 
NZ321
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:17 pm

Sightseer wrote:
Another reason I'd point out for DL being smaller at LHR than AA and UA is that while its competitors have been flying to LHR for close to 30 years, DL was legally barred from serving LHR until 2008. Everything it has there, it's acquired in just over 11 years, while up until then it was free to build up its CDG ops. NW was in the same boat and made a corresponding push at AMS.


Yes you have a point but if you look at CDG ops for DL 10 years ago they were hardly impressive.
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SCQ83
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:22 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Should DL restart inter-europe service in LHR after Brexit?


Why? That's what AF/KL are for.


DL should start ATL/JFK-EXT. And naturally DTW-EXT. Instant success.
 
westgate
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:41 pm

Just made a quick compilation of all flights from DL/VS/AA/UA from USA to LHR/AMS/CDG/FRA for tomorrow 15th July (please excuse any errors or omissions)

LHR: DL x 10 flights, VS x 18, AA x 21 and UA x 17.

AMS: DL x 21 (same as AA at LHR), AA x 2, UA x 5.

CDG: DL x 14, AA x 7, UA x 5.

FRA: DL x 3, AA x 2, UA x 9.

For all 4 airports, DL has a total of 48 flights, 66 if you include VS. AA has a total of 32 flights and UA has 36.

Even without VS, DL is clearly the overall winner with 48 flights. The only airport that DL really is lacking to is FRA, but then UA only has 9 flights there itself, even less than what DL has at LHR. If it wasn't for the JV/part-ownership of VS, DL would most likely have a few more flights at LHR, for example SEA, a 3rd ATL and a 3rd JFK. But by and large, I think DL, especially with VS, definitely wins the overall trans-atlantic battle to those 4 major European airports.

LHR (London Heathrow):

DL
- 10 flights

ATL - 333
ATL - 332
BOS - 332
DTW - 332
DTW - 76W
JFK - 332
JFK - 332
MSP - 76W
PDX - 76W
SLC - 76W

VS - 18 flights

ATL - 333
BOS - 333
BOS - 333
IAD - 333
JFK - 346
JFK - 346
JFK - 346
JFK - 333
JFK - 333
JFK - 333
LAS - 789
LAX - 789
LAX - 789
MIA - 789
SEA - 789
SFO - 789
SFO - 789

AA - 21 flights

CLT - 333
CLT - 333
DFW - 77W
DFW - 77W
DFW - 772
DFW - 772
JFK - 77W
JFK - 772
JFK - 772
LAX - 77W
LAX - 77W
MIA - 77W
ORD - 789
ORD - 789
ORD - 789
ORD - 788
PHL - 333
PHL - 333
PHX - 772
RDU - 772

UA - 17 flights

EWR - 764
EWR - 76W
EWR - 76W
EWR - 76W
EWR - 76W
DEN - 788
IAD - 772
IAD - 788
IAD - 75W
IAH - 772
IAH - 789
LAX - 789
ORD - 76W
ORD - 76W
ORD - 76W
SFO - 77W
SFO - 772

AMS (Amsterdam Schipol)

DL - 21 flights

ATL - 77L
ATL - 333
ATL - 333
BOS - 333
BOS - 76W
DTW - 359
DTW - 333
DTW - 333
DTW - 333
JFK - 333
JFK - 76W
LAX - 333
MCO - 76W
MSP - 333
MSP - 333
MSP - 333
PDX - 333
SEA - 333
SEA - 76W
SLC - 76W
TPA - 76W

AA - 2 flights

DFW - 772
PHL - 76W

UA - 5 flights

EWR - 764
IAD - 764
IAH - 772
ORD - 76W
SFO - 789

CDG (Paris Charles de Gaulle)

DL - 14 flights

ATL - 772
ATL - 772
BOS - 76W
CVG - 76W
DTW - 76W
DTW - 76W
IND - 76W
JFK - 333
JFK - 332
LAX - 772
MSP - 772
RDU - 76W
SEA - 76W
SLC - 76W

AA - 7 flights

CLT - 332
DFW - 789
DFW - 788
JFK - 772
MIA - 772
ORD - 788
PHL - 332

UA - 5 flights

EWR - 781
EWR - 76W
IAD - 772
ORD - 772
SFO - 772

FRA (Frankfurt am Main)

DL - 3 flights

ATL - 76W
DTW - 76W
JFK - 76W

AA - 2 flights

CLT - 332
DFW - 772

UA - 9 flights

EWR - 781
DEN - 788
IAD - 772
IAD - 772
IAH - 772
ORD - 772
ORD - 772
SFO - 77W
SFO - 772
 
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chepos
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Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:00 pm

westgate wrote:
Just made a quick compilation of all flights from DL/VS/AA/UA from USA to LHR/AMS/CDG/FRA for tomorrow 15th July (please excuse any errors or omissions)

LHR: DL x 10 flights, VS x 18, AA x 21 and UA x 17.

AMS: DL x 21 (same as AA at LHR), AA x 2, UA x 5.

CDG: DL x 14, AA x 7, UA x 5.

FRA: DL x 3, AA x 2, UA x 9.

For all 4 airports, DL has a total of 48 flights, 66 if you include VS. AA has a total of 32 flights and UA has 36.

Even without VS, DL is clearly the overall winner with 48 flights. The only airport that DL really is lacking to is FRA, but then UA only has 9 flights there itself, even less than what DL has at LHR. If it wasn't for the JV/part-ownership of VS, DL would most likely have a few more flights at LHR, for example SEA, a 3rd ATL and a 3rd JFK. But by and large, I think DL, especially with VS, definitely wins the overall trans-atlantic battle to those 4 major European airports.

LHR (London Heathrow):

DL
- 10 flights

ATL - 333
ATL - 332
BOS - 332
DTW - 332
DTW - 76W
JFK - 332
JFK - 332
MSP - 76W
PDX - 76W
SLC - 76W

VS - 18 flights

ATL - 333
BOS - 333
BOS - 333
IAD - 333
JFK - 346
JFK - 346
JFK - 346
JFK - 333
JFK - 333
JFK - 333
LAS - 789
LAX - 789
LAX - 789
MIA - 789
SEA - 789
SFO - 789
SFO - 789

AA - 21 flights

CLT - 333
CLT - 333
DFW - 77W
DFW - 77W
DFW - 772
DFW - 772
JFK - 77W
JFK - 772
JFK - 772
LAX - 77W
LAX - 77W
MIA - 77W
ORD - 789
ORD - 789
ORD - 789
ORD - 788
PHL - 333
PHL - 333
PHX - 772
RDU - 772

UA - 17 flights

EWR - 764
EWR - 76W
EWR - 76W
EWR - 76W
EWR - 76W
DEN - 788
IAD - 772
IAD - 788
IAD - 75W
IAH - 772
IAH - 789
LAX - 789
ORD - 76W
ORD - 76W
ORD - 76W
SFO - 77W
SFO - 772

AMS (Amsterdam Schipol)

DL - 21 flights

ATL - 77L
ATL - 333
ATL - 333
BOS - 333
BOS - 76W
DTW - 359
DTW - 333
DTW - 333
DTW - 333
JFK - 333
JFK - 76W
LAX - 333
MCO - 76W
MSP - 333
MSP - 333
MSP - 333
PDX - 333
SEA - 333
SEA - 76W
SLC - 76W
TPA - 76W

AA - 2 flights

DFW - 772
PHL - 76W

UA - 5 flights

EWR - 764
IAD - 764
IAH - 772
ORD - 76W
SFO - 789

CDG (Paris Charles de Gaulle)

DL - 14 flights

ATL - 772
ATL - 772
BOS - 76W
CVG - 76W
DTW - 76W
DTW - 76W
IND - 76W
JFK - 333
JFK - 332
LAX - 772
MSP - 772
RDU - 76W
SEA - 76W
SLC - 76W

AA - 7 flights

CLT - 332
DFW - 789
DFW - 788
JFK - 772
MIA - 772
ORD - 788
PHL - 332

UA - 5 flights

EWR - 781
EWR - 76W
IAD - 772
ORD - 772
SFO - 772

FRA (Frankfurt am Main)

DL - 3 flights

ATL - 76W
DTW - 76W
JFK - 76W

AA - 2 flights

CLT - 332
DFW - 772

UA - 9 flights

EWR - 781
DEN - 788
IAD - 772
IAD - 772
IAH - 772
ORD - 772
ORD - 772
SFO - 77W
SFO - 772


AA tomorrow from from LHR to JFK has four flights 101, 105, 107 and 141.

If you are counting VS/DL US flights as one at LHR, shouldn’t you count BA/AA LHR ops the same way?


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notconcerned
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:39 pm

westgate wrote:
Even without VS, DL is clearly the overall winner with 48 flights. The only airport that DL really is lacking to is FRA, but then UA only has 9 flights there itself, even less than what DL has at LHR. If it wasn't for the JV/part-ownership of VS, DL would most likely have a few more flights at LHR, for example SEA, a 3rd ATL and a 3rd JFK. But by and large, I think DL, especially with VS, definitely wins the overall trans-atlantic battle to those 4 major European airports.


The analysis is rather selective. As noted above, you count DL/VS but not AA/BA. Also no mention of seat count. And the comparison of LHR/AMS/CDG and FRA is not really equal, since *A TATL traffic is much more dispersed between various hubs (YYZ/BRU/ZRH/VIE/MUC) rather than single fortress hub.

In any case, DL/VS does have a respectable operation at LHR to capture O&D. All other traffic still has to flow through CDG/AMS, while AA/BA can capture both O&D and connecting.
 
questions
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:14 pm

theasianguy wrote:
questions wrote:
First I think we need some data. How many flights LHR-USA are flown by:
- AA
- DL
- DL+VS
- UA


AA: 21 daily: (4x JFK, 4x ORD, 4x DFW, 2x PHL, 2x CLT, 2x LAX, 1x MIA, 1x RDU, 1x PHX)
VS: 17 daily: (6x JFK, 2x BOS, 2x LAX, 2x SFO, 1x EWR, 1x IAD, 1x ATL, 1x LAS, 1x SEA)
UA: 17 daily: (5x EWR, 3x IAD, 3x ORD, 2x IAH, 2x SFO, 1x LAX, 1x DEN)
DL: 10 daily: (2x JFK, 2x DTW, 2x ATL, 1x BOS, 1x MSP, 1x SLC, 1x PDX)


Thanks for pulling this together and sharing with us.
 
questions
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Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:22 pm

notconcerned wrote:
westgate wrote:
Even without VS, DL is clearly the overall winner with 48 flights. The only airport that DL really is lacking to is FRA, but then UA only has 9 flights there itself, even less than what DL has at LHR. If it wasn't for the JV/part-ownership of VS, DL would most likely have a few more flights at LHR, for example SEA, a 3rd ATL and a 3rd JFK. But by and large, I think DL, especially with VS, definitely wins the overall trans-atlantic battle to those 4 major European airports.


The analysis is rather selective. As noted above, you count DL/VS but not AA/BA. Also no mention of seat count. And the comparison of LHR/AMS/CDG and FRA is not really equal, since *A TATL traffic is much more dispersed between various hubs (YYZ/BRU/ZRH/VIE/MUC) rather than single fortress hub.

In any case, DL/VS does have a respectable operation at LHR to capture O&D. All other traffic still has to flow through CDG/AMS, while AA/BA can capture both O&D and connecting.


I proposed leaving AA/BA out because it’s a given they’d blow everyone out of the water.

OP stated, However, DL has far less daily departure from LHR than what AA and UA have.

While true, since DL has a JV with VS I believe you have to look at DL/VS when comparing to UA. If you had a partner into LHR from the US I’d want to see data as well.
 
westgate
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:17 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:27 pm

chepos wrote:

AA tomorrow from from LHR to JFK has four flights 101, 105, 107 and 141.

If you are counting VS/DL US flights as one at LHR, shouldn’t you count BA/AA LHR ops the same way?



Whoops, that was a typo !!! Unfortunately a bit too late to change it now.

I decided to only combine DL/VS ops, and not AA/BA ops, for the reason that DL owns a significant amount of VS. I understand that they are both metal-neutral JV's with revenue/profit sharing etc, but AA and BA don't actually have any ownership in each other. VS out of LHR I would therefor say is more a 'part' of DL than BA is for AA. I know it's somewhat of a crude comparison, but I'm basically just looking at the flights US carriers have on their own metal as well as flights of any airlines they have significant ownership in

Also, for the purposes of simplicity, I'm not going to list every BA flight as well !!! And if I did, I would need to include all KL flights out of AMS, AF from CDG and LH from FRA etc.

not concerned wrote:
The analysis is rather selective. As noted above, you count DL/VS but not AA/BA. Also no mention of seat count.


As I said above, it is a rather crude comparison. Concerning seat count, I don't think it's hugely important, as there isn't such a massive difference in seats between most aircraft, i.e. largest is 77W, and there's only one 75W, so majority of flights are with 76W, 764, 788, 789, 332, 333, 359, 772. All those types for all 3 airlines range from 214 to 288 seats (although some of the UA 76W's may have the new Polaris with only 167). If there were a lot more 75W's as well as quite a few 744/748/388, then seat count would be much more necessary to give an overall rough picture of capacity.

not concerned wrote:
And the comparison of LHR/AMS/CDG and FRA is not really equal, since *A TATL traffic is much more dispersed between various hubs (YYZ/BRU/ZRH/VIE/MUC) rather than single fortress hub.


Although I am only looking at flights on actual US metal and any airlines they have ownership in, I still think it's a good idea to also include US3 flights to BRU, ZRH, VIE and MUC.
Last edited by westgate on Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:27 pm

chepos wrote:
If you are counting VS/DL US flights as one at LHR, shouldn’t you count BA/AA LHR ops the same way?


We could, but I think we all know AA/BA data would clearly be far ahead of DL/VS and UA.

The OP stated, However, DL has far less daily departure from LHR than what AA and UA have.

The real comparison is between DL/VS and UA. We know AA/BA data would blow DL/VS and UA out of the water. Plus, LHR is a OW hub.
 
LondonXtreme
Topic Author
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:39 pm

I'm not sure how many O&D passengers on those DL's 21 flights to AMS daily without connecting onward to Europe.

My recent observation on BA's SFO-LHR flight, more than 80% of passengers got off at LHR. I think even LHR is a OW hub, BA/AA don't rely on connecting, the majority traffic is between UK and USA.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1372
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:43 pm

I also think you can't ignore AC. They're part of the JV with UA and LH; if you're going to have to fly to LHR with a connection somewhere, AC has some pretty decent options over YYZ. changing in Toronto is no more difficult than changing in Boston, Chicago, or New York, for example, and overall flight times are similar. We know that AC strongly markets xxx-yyz-Europe, so they can't be ignored.
 
johns624
Posts: 2794
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:24 pm

LondonXtreme wrote:

My recent observation on BA's SFO-LHR flight, more than 80% of passengers got off at LHR. I think even LHR is a OW hub, BA/AA don't rely on connecting, the majority traffic is between UK and USA.

Then you would be wrong. Where else would OW members connect onward into Europe. Maybe because you were on a BA flight, it was people going home while passengers on AA would mainly be outbound Americans.
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 13278
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:27 pm

theasianguy wrote:
VS: 17 daily: (6x JFK, 2x BOS, 2x LAX, 2x SFO, 1x EWR, 1x IAD, 1x ATL, 1x LAS, 1x SEA)

99% sure that VS still has a nonstop to MIA as well.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
LondonXtreme
Topic Author
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:34 pm

johns624 wrote:
LondonXtreme wrote:

My recent observation on BA's SFO-LHR flight, more than 80% of passengers got off at LHR. I think even LHR is a OW hub, BA/AA don't rely on connecting, the majority traffic is between UK and USA.

Then you would be wrong. Where else would OW members connect onward into Europe. Maybe because you were on a BA flight, it was people going home while passengers on AA would mainly be outbound Americans.

I have a couple of experience on London bound flight on BA this year. Actually I can see more American than British on the flight, and most of people get off at LHR without connecting to Europe or anywhere else. Everytime I wait at passport control queue at LHR T5(during the morning hours), I can see tons of people(more than half) holding US passport.

I can totally understand that AA flights to LHR would be mainly Americans. The BA flights depart from AA's fortress hub like DFW and ORD are limited, and they don't even serve CLT. And that's AA's business to connect those people all over the country via it's hub like DFW.
 
westgate
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:17 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:38 pm

Here's the US3's flights to MUC, BRU, ZRH and VIE just to give some balance to UA and the many more Star Alliance hubs. And then I'm going to throw in MAD as well, as that's a significant OW hub.

So across LHR/AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/BRU/ZRH/VIE/MAD for the US3 totals are :

DL x 56 flights

AA x 41 flights

UA x 49 flights

So DL still out in the lead. And yes I know, no seat count, but considering there isn't such a massive difference in seat counts between most aircraft used, I'm going to assume that DL would likely lead overall in seat count as well.

MUC (Munich)

DL - 2 flights

ATL -76W
DTW - 76W

AA - 2 flights

CLT - 332
DFW - 788

UA - 5 flights

EWR - 764
IAD - 772
IAH - 76W
ORD - 772
SFO -781

BRU (Brussels Zaventem)

DL - 2 flights

ATL - 76W
JFK - 76W

AA - 0 flights

UA - 3 flights

EWR - 781
ORD - 772
IAD - 772

ZRH (Zurich)

DL - 2 flights

ATL - 76W
JFK - 332

AA - 1 flight

PHL - 76W

UA - 3 flights

EWR - 764
SFO - 788
ZRH - 788

VIE (Vienna Schwechat)

DL - 0 flights

AA - 0 flights

UA - 0 flights

MAD (Madrid Barajas)

DL - 2 flights

ATL - 764
JFK - 764

AA - 6 flights

CLT - 332
DFW - 772
DFW - 789
JFK - 772
MIA - 772
PHL - 332

UA - 2 flights

EWR - 772
IAD - 75W
 
LondonXtreme
Topic Author
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:42 pm

westgate wrote:
Here's the US3's flights to MUC, BRU, ZRH and VIE just to give some balance to UA and the many more Star Alliance hubs. And then I'm going to throw in MAD as well, as that's a significant OW hub.

So across LHR/AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/BRU/ZRH/VIE/MAD for the US3 totals are :

DL x 56 flights

AA x 41 flights

UA x 49 flights

So DL still out in the lead. And yes I know, no seat count, but considering there isn't such a massive difference in seat counts between most aircraft used, I'm going to assume that DL would likely lead overall in seat count as well.

MUC (Munich)

DL - 2 flights

ATL -76W
DTW - 76W

AA - 2 flights

CLT - 332
DFW - 788

UA - 5 flights

EWR - 764
IAD - 772
IAH - 76W
ORD - 772
SFO -781

BRU (Brussels Zaventem)

DL - 2 flights

ATL - 76W
JFK - 76W

AA - 0 flights

UA - 3 flights

EWR - 781
ORD - 772
IAD - 772

ZRH (Zurich)

DL - 2 flights

ATL - 76W
JFK - 332

AA - 1 flight

PHL - 76W

UA - 3 flights

EWR - 764
SFO - 788
ZRH - 788

VIE (Vienna Schwechat)

DL - 0 flights

AA - 0 flights

UA - 0 flights

MAD (Madrid Barajas)

DL - 2 flights

ATL - 764
JFK - 764

AA - 6 flights

CLT - 332
DFW - 772
DFW - 789
JFK - 772
MIA - 772
PHL - 332

UA - 2 flights

EWR - 772
IAD - 75W

Surprising, none of US3 serve VIE
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Delta at LHR

Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:07 pm

How are the DL/VS terminal facilities at LHR?
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4816
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Delta at LHR

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:33 am

questions wrote:
How are the DL/VS terminal facilities at LHR?

They have the flagship Virgin Clubhouse lounge if that’s what you mean?
Seems Delta is pulling the A330 out of LHR and reverting to the smaller B767-400 from the end of the summer? What’s the rationale on that one?
 
jfk777
Posts: 7356
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Delta at LHR

Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:12 am

questions wrote:
How are the DL/VS terminal facilities at LHR?


The Virgin Clubhouse is excellent. They have an arrivals lounge called "revivals lounge". They have an Upper Class drive up area and their own security line. Virgin has a great deal at LHR.
 
pdxav8r
Posts: 256
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:15 am

Re: Delta at LHR

Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:42 am

LAX772LR wrote:
N649DL wrote:
DL has already tried two very tough markets from LHR when the JV with VS were enacted in 2014 and those were EWR and PHL. They also tried LHR-MIA on a 764 back in like 2011 and that failed.

I think DL is best staying from hubs to LHR right now. AA operates RDU-LHR and should they'd ever drop that I'm sure DL would swoop in. But that's all I could really see at this point.

DL also flies PDX-LHR with its own metal, and that superficially seems to be doing just fine.

Really nothing superficial about it, unless you think DL is just trying to hold off The entrance of BA. DL announced they are upgrading next summer to one of their newly refurbished 764’s. Something must be working.
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 13278
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:57 am

pdxav8r wrote:
Really nothing superficial about it

It's completely superficial, as would be anything in the absence of directly seeing the route-specific numbers themselves (which no public amateurs ever would).

While again, I'd assume it's doing quite well (for the reason you stated, and others)............. we still don't really know the primary contributory reasons they have/maintain it. Heck, for all we know, it could be a stipulation by businesses with whom they have contracts for their European and Japanese services, e.g. that DL must maintain X number of seats to LON within a given time frame in order to retain Y% of that company's longhaul businesses.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
N649DL
Posts: 972
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:17 am

westgate wrote:
Just made a quick compilation of all flights from DL/VS/AA/UA from USA to LHR/AMS/CDG/FRA for tomorrow 15th July (please excuse any errors or omissions)

LHR: DL x 10 flights, VS x 18, AA x 21 and UA x 17.

AMS: DL x 21 (same as AA at LHR), AA x 2, UA x 5.

CDG: DL x 14, AA x 7, UA x 5.

FRA: DL x 3, AA x 2, UA x 9.

For all 4 airports, DL has a total of 48 flights, 66 if you include VS. AA has a total of 32 flights and UA has 36.

Even without VS, DL is clearly the overall winner with 48 flights. The only airport that DL really is lacking to is FRA, but then UA only has 9 flights there itself, even less than what DL has at LHR. If it wasn't for the JV/part-ownership of VS, DL would most likely have a few more flights at LHR, for example SEA, a 3rd ATL and a 3rd JFK. But by and large, I think DL, especially with VS, definitely wins the overall trans-atlantic battle to those 4 major European airports.

LHR (London Heathrow):

DL
- 10 flights

ATL - 333
ATL - 332
BOS - 332
DTW - 332
DTW - 76W
JFK - 332
JFK - 332
MSP - 76W
PDX - 76W
SLC - 76W

VS - 18 flights

ATL - 333
BOS - 333
BOS - 333
IAD - 333
JFK - 346
JFK - 346
JFK - 346
JFK - 333
JFK - 333
JFK - 333
LAS - 789
LAX - 789
LAX - 789
MIA - 789
SEA - 789
SFO - 789
SFO - 789

AA - 21 flights

CLT - 333
CLT - 333
DFW - 77W
DFW - 77W
DFW - 772
DFW - 772
JFK - 77W
JFK - 772
JFK - 772
LAX - 77W
LAX - 77W
MIA - 77W
ORD - 789
ORD - 789
ORD - 789
ORD - 788
PHL - 333
PHL - 333
PHX - 772
RDU - 772

UA - 17 flights

EWR - 764
EWR - 76W
EWR - 76W
EWR - 76W
EWR - 76W
DEN - 788
IAD - 772
IAD - 788
IAD - 75W
IAH - 772
IAH - 789
LAX - 789
ORD - 76W
ORD - 76W
ORD - 76W
SFO - 77W
SFO - 772

AMS (Amsterdam Schipol)

DL - 21 flights

ATL - 77L
ATL - 333
ATL - 333
BOS - 333
BOS - 76W
DTW - 359
DTW - 333
DTW - 333
DTW - 333
JFK - 333
JFK - 76W
LAX - 333
MCO - 76W
MSP - 333
MSP - 333
MSP - 333
PDX - 333
SEA - 333
SEA - 76W
SLC - 76W
TPA - 76W

AA - 2 flights

DFW - 772
PHL - 76W

UA - 5 flights

EWR - 764
IAD - 764
IAH - 772
ORD - 76W
SFO - 789

CDG (Paris Charles de Gaulle)

DL - 14 flights

ATL - 772
ATL - 772
BOS - 76W
CVG - 76W
DTW - 76W
DTW - 76W
IND - 76W
JFK - 333
JFK - 332
LAX - 772
MSP - 772
RDU - 76W
SEA - 76W
SLC - 76W

AA - 7 flights

CLT - 332
DFW - 789
DFW - 788
JFK - 772
MIA - 772
ORD - 788
PHL - 332

UA - 5 flights

EWR - 781
EWR - 76W
IAD - 772
ORD - 772
SFO - 772

FRA (Frankfurt am Main)

DL - 3 flights

ATL - 76W
DTW - 76W
JFK - 76W

AA - 2 flights

CLT - 332
DFW - 772

UA - 9 flights

EWR - 781
DEN - 788
IAD - 772
IAD - 772
IAH - 772
ORD - 772
ORD - 772
SFO - 77W
SFO - 772


Missing a few: VS #2 EWR-LHR https://www.google.com/search?safe=acti ... 80&bih=873
 
Sightseer
Posts: 996
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

Re: Delta at LHR

Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:35 am

skipness1E wrote:
Seems Delta is pulling the A330 out of LHR and reverting to the smaller B767-400 from the end of the summer? What’s the rationale on that one?

I'm assuming the 764s going to LHR will be the newly refurbished ones.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6313
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:45 am

LondonXtreme wrote:
westgate wrote:
Here's the US3's flights to MUC, BRU, ZRH and VIE just to give some balance to UA and the many more Star Alliance hubs. And then I'm going to throw in MAD as well, as that's a significant OW hub.

So across LHR/AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/BRU/ZRH/VIE/MAD for the US3 totals are :

DL x 56 flights

AA x 41 flights

UA x 49 flights

So DL still out in the lead. And yes I know, no seat count, but considering there isn't such a massive difference in seat counts between most aircraft used, I'm going to assume that DL would likely lead overall in seat count as well.

MUC (Munich)

DL - 2 flights

ATL -76W
DTW - 76W

AA - 2 flights

CLT - 332
DFW - 788

UA - 5 flights

EWR - 764
IAD - 772
IAH - 76W
ORD - 772
SFO -781

BRU (Brussels Zaventem)

DL - 2 flights

ATL - 76W
JFK - 76W

AA - 0 flights

UA - 3 flights

EWR - 781
ORD - 772
IAD - 772

ZRH (Zurich)

DL - 2 flights

ATL - 76W
JFK - 332

AA - 1 flight

PHL - 76W

UA - 3 flights

EWR - 764
SFO - 788
ZRH - 788

VIE (Vienna Schwechat)

DL - 0 flights

AA - 0 flights

UA - 0 flights

MAD (Madrid Barajas)

DL - 2 flights

ATL - 764
JFK - 764

AA - 6 flights

CLT - 332
DFW - 772
DFW - 789
JFK - 772
MIA - 772
PHL - 332

UA - 2 flights

EWR - 772
IAD - 75W

Surprising, none of US3 serve VIE


DL has served VIE in the past. I don’t believe AA and UA or their merger partners ever have.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:40 am

westgate wrote:
ZRH (Zurich)

DL - 2 flights

ATL - 76W
JFK - 332

AA - 1 flight

PHL - 76W

UA - 3 flights

EWR - 764
SFO - 788
ZRH - 788

where does the third UA flight go? It's presumably not a sightseeing roundtrip. :devil:
 
AdEd
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 6:05 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:40 am

Sightseer wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Seems Delta is pulling the A330 out of LHR and reverting to the smaller B767-400 from the end of the summer? What’s the rationale on that one?

I'm assuming the 764s going to LHR will be the newly refurbished ones.


That is correct.
 
westgate
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:17 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:41 am

Bhoy wrote:
westgate wrote:
ZRH (Zurich)

DL - 2 flights

ATL - 76W
JFK - 332

AA - 1 flight

PHL - 76W

UA - 3 flights

EWR - 764
SFO - 788
ZRH - 788

where does the third UA flight go? It's presumably not a sightseeing roundtrip. :devil:


No not a sightseeing trip . . . it goes to IAD.
 
lhrsfosyd91
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:47 pm

Re: Delta at LHR

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:29 pm

What is the busiest European airport by International passenger numbers not served by US3?

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