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Morgenstern1234
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Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:08 am

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ro-459659/
Seems like Lufthansa group and CX are getting a bit closer now.., maybe no more expansion in Europe for CX because of partnering with LH group now?
Last edited by SQ22 on Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:16 am

Nice.

But dangit Cathay, get with Delta too, so we Widgeteers can finally have a way to avoid KE while getting to most of Asia!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Cathay777300ER
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:51 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Nice.

But dangit Cathay, get with Delta too, so we Widgeteers can finally have a way to avoid KE while getting to most of Asia!


Cathay is not going to do anything to annoy American. Its main reason to be in oneworld at this point. American supports probably about half the seats cathay send to the US
 
stylo777
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:12 am

[twoid][/twoid]
Cathay777300ER wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Nice.

But dangit Cathay, get with Delta too, so we Widgeteers can finally have a way to avoid KE while getting to most of Asia!


Cathay is not going to do anything to annoy American. Its main reason to be in oneworld at this point. American supports probably about half the seats cathay send to the US

Is this a fact or just an assumption?
Half of all seats to/from USA seems like a big stretch...
 
Morgenstern1234
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:23 am

I’m surprised that CX is partnering with LH in Europe rather than partnering with oneworld’s Finnair, British airways, Iberia
 
mutu
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:34 am

Morgenstern1234 wrote:
I’m surprised that CX is partnering with LH in Europe rather than partnering with oneworld’s Finnair, British airways, Iberia


The issue with Oneworld European partners is there geographic locations: From the east BA/LHR requires backtracking (bearable for the short hops like CDG/AMS/BRU), IB/MAD requires backtracking (bearable only for a handful of destinations plus a number of Spanish/Portuguese onwards, north Africa etc). AY can work but they don't have the most comprehensive European network as far as frequencies are concerned.

A link up with a central European group like LH gives a better fit.

Same issue QF had with its BA partnership, and MH has.

BA/LHR is optimal for westbound onwards which is really only domestic/Ireland/KEF and then Canada/US/South America
 
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vhtje
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:41 am

Morgenstern1234 wrote:
I’m surprised that CX is partnering with LH in Europe rather than partnering with oneworld’s Finnair, British airways, Iberia


Define 'partnering'?

The linked article only states that CX will put its code on one daily HKG <> MUC flight operated by LH, and one daily HKG <> ZRH operated by LX. In return, LH and LX will respectively put their code on the CX flights operating on the same routes.

It is worth noting that none of CX's oneworld partners operate these routes.

The new agreement doesn't appear to extend to FF Earn/Burn, reciprocal lounge access for top tier Frequent Flyers, or other privileges. I don't think Cathay's oneworld partners are worried about this.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:56 am

vhtje wrote:
Morgenstern1234 wrote:
I’m surprised that CX is partnering with LH in Europe rather than partnering with oneworld’s Finnair, British airways, Iberia


Define 'partnering'?

The linked article only states that CX will put its code on one daily HKG <> MUC flight operated by LH, and one daily HKG <> ZRH operated by LX. In return, LH and LX will respectively put their code on the CX flights operating on the same routes.

It is worth noting that none of CX's oneworld partners operate these routes.

The new agreement doesn't appear to extend to FF Earn/Burn, reciprocal lounge access for top tier Frequent Flyers, or other privileges. I don't think Cathay's oneworld partners are worried about this.

CX and LH group are already covered for most of the HKG-Europe flyings and FF Earn/Burn from previous agreements:
https://www.asiamiles.com/en/earn-miles ... /lufthansa
https://www.miles-and-more.com/row/en/p ... ys/au.html

Not sure about lounge access though.

Michael
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:08 am

Morgenstern1234 wrote:
I’m surprised that CX is partnering with LH in Europe rather than partnering with oneworld’s Finnair, British airways, Iberia


They do “partner” (ok, mainly codeshare) quite a bit with BA, and I would expect codesharing with IB to continue to increase.

As for AY - hard to codeshare too much with them without hurting either’s bottom line. Right now CX and AY only codeshare on HEL-European cities that CX has non-stops to.

As for LH Group - CX doesn’t have much houce after the demise of Air Berlin. Central Europe is a huge hole for OW.

Cathay777300ER wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Nice.

But dangit Cathay, get with Delta too, so we Widgeteers can finally have a way to avoid KE while getting to most of Asia!


Cathay is not going to do anything to annoy American. Its main reason to be in oneworld at this point. American supports probably about half the seats cathay send to the US


IMHO you will see CX jumping to *A first (thus partnering with UA) before you will ever see DL partnership, and neither are likely anyway.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:14 am

eamondzhang wrote:
CX and LH group are already covered for most of the HKG-Europe flyings and FF Earn/Burn from previous agreements:
https://www.asiamiles.com/en/earn-miles ... /lufthansa
https://www.miles-and-more.com/row/en/p ... ys/au.html

Not sure about lounge access though.

Michael


Fair enough. Thank you - I didn't know that. But the earn/burn reciprocity is not extensive:

Lufthansa wrote:
As a Miles & More member, you can earn valuable award miles on selected Cathay Pacific scheduled flights.


CathayPacific wrote:
Miles accrual is applicable only to specific sectors. Please refer to the important notes for details


Note: emphasis mine.

Compared with what Lufhansa says for fellow Star Alliance member Eva Air:

Lufthansa wrote:
...you are effortlessly filling up your mileage account on all scheduled flights
Last edited by vhtje on Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:17 am

vhtje wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
CX and LH group are already covered for most of the HKG-Europe flyings and FF Earn/Burn from previous agreements:
https://www.asiamiles.com/en/earn-miles ... /lufthansa
https://www.miles-and-more.com/row/en/p ... ys/au.html

Not sure about lounge access though.

Michael


Fair enough. I didn't know that. But the earn/burn reciprocity is not is not extensive:

Lufthansa wrote:
As a Miles & More member, you can earn valuable award miles on selected Cathay Pacific scheduled flights.


CathayPacific wrote:
Miles accrual is applicable only to specific sectors. Please refer to the important notes for details


Note: emphasis mine.

Compared with what Lufhansa says for fellow Star Alliance member Eva Air:

Lufthansa wrote:
...you are effortlessly filling up your mileage account on all scheduled flights

Indeed, that's one shortfall when you have FF earn/burn with other non-alliance airlines. I haven't really found many airlines who cooperate outside the alliances and yet have full reciprocity - especially when it comes to lounges and status points.

Michael
 
Morgenstern1234
Topic Author
Posts: 76
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:20 am

Where should CX fly next in Europe?
 
J343
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:53 am

oneworld as mentioned in several articles and forum has the most flexibility when it comes to partnering with other airlines outside of the alliance. QF and CX are good examples and to a lesser extent JL and MH. There are also mentions about oneworld being the most cohesive out of all the alliance. CX virtually codeshares with almost all oneworld alliance airlines with the exception of RJ and UL. BA on the other hand codeshares with all oneworld airlines.

The demise of AB has definitely created a hole for oneworld in Central Europe. BA and CX's partnership is quite extensive to some extent with BA putting its BA code on almost all of CX's flights to Australia and most cities in SE Asia.

Also, I don't believe that AA fills half of CX's seats for flights to and from the USA. AA and CX has a strong partnership with each codesharing on all routes to and from HKG-USA and beyond HK. If given the opportunity I dont see a reason why CX would be opposed to a JV with AA and JL for TPAC flights.

As for CX joining Star Alliance, I personally think it is unlikely. CX is a founding member and oneworld has the advantage of having hubs in some of the world's financial capitals e.g LHR, HND/NRT, JFK, HKG, SYD. If ever, my bet would be EY joining Star as they have recently announced partnership with LH Group and UA.
 
Cathay777300ER
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:42 pm

stylo777 wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
Cathay777300ER wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Nice.

But dangit Cathay, get with Delta too, so we Widgeteers can finally have a way to avoid KE while getting to most of Asia!


Cathay is not going to do anything to annoy American. Its main reason to be in oneworld at this point. American supports probably about half the seats cathay send to the US

Is this a fact or just an assumption?
Half of all seats to/from USA seems like a big stretch...


Sorry realised my mistake. I was told half of the passengers are connecting by an insider in cathay. My Hong Kong based mine assumed that would be abroad. Connecting both through Hong Kong and through AA
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:26 pm

CX and LH joint venture the cargo operation long time before
 
airfrancejfk
Posts: 460
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:59 pm

Cathay777300ER wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Nice.

But dangit Cathay, get with Delta too, so we Widgeteers can finally have a way to avoid KE while getting to most of Asia!


Cathay is not going to do anything to annoy American. Its main reason to be in oneworld at this point. American supports probably about half the seats cathay send to the US


AA does not fill half the seats on CX from the US to HKG. CX operates out of a number of non-OneWorld hub cities (EWR, BOS, IAD, SFO, SEA) which are heavy O&D. Others such as JFK, LAX and ORD get a good amount of AA traffic but certainly not anything above 50%.
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:36 pm

Morgenstern1234 wrote:
Where should CX fly next in Europe?

Munich
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG - UA
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:21 pm

On AA and CX...I thought that the reason why CZ left SkyTeam was to grow closer with AA, and CAN is only 100 miles from HKG. CZ is also anchoring PKX in association with oneworld.
 
YangFeng
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:46 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
Morgenstern1234 wrote:
Where should CX fly next in Europe?

Munich


Possible. Along with the new codeshares, LH has changed the equipment on the MUC-HKG route from A388 to A346, that's about a 200-seat reduction in capacity. Now why would you reduce capacity when you start putting a new code on your flight?

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-10jul19/
Munich – Hong Kong eff 29MAR20 A340-600 replaces A380, 1 daily
 
Morgenstern1234
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:12 pm

other than Munich the only other options for CX in Europe are Vienna and Moscow (codeshare with S7)
 
RichardWelling
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:19 am

QR had something similar in the past where they codeshares DOH-EU for CX. I wonder what happened.
 
questions
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:26 am

I’m not convinced any airline is wedded to their respective alliance. Simply being a “founding member” is not a business reason. If more money can be made leaving an alliance, an airline will change partners, cancel JV agreements, sell/write-off financial investments and reconfigure networks.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:45 am

questions wrote:
I’m not convinced any airline is wedded to their respective alliance. Simply being a “founding member” is not a business reason. If more money can be made leaving an alliance, an airline will change partners, cancel JV agreements, sell/write-off financial investments and reconfigure networks.

Correct Alliances are a construct of the '90s and are increasingly irrelevant today. Many airlines are "marrying out" such as QF/KL, CX/NZ or not bothering with alliances altogether EK,VS,VA. Many of the benefits originally foreseen in global alliances haven't come to pass such as common service standards, common FF schemes, joint aircraft purchases etc. These alliances are very expensive to be a part of and just because you were friends 20 years ago doesn't mean you like each other much today. It appears bilateral partnerships may be the future.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group Codesharing

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:00 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
IMHO you will see CX jumping to *A first (thus partnering with UA) before you will ever see DL partnership

In exchange for what?

Remember that without ATI and thus the ability to have a j/v, their American partner remains a competitor.

UA directly competes with CX to EWR/ORD/SFO... but with DL to: nowhere.

CX currently flies to four DL hubs, and can easily add two others (DTW, ATL), neither of which interfere with its current network patterns with AA. And keep in mind, I never said anything about leaving OneWorld for another alliance, just picking up yet another mainland US partner.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:06 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
In exchange for what?


Nothing. But to be really fair, it's extremely unlikely that CX would even jump to *A anyway.

LAX772LR wrote:
CX currently flies to four DL hubs, and can easily add two others (DTW, ATL), neither of which interfere with its current network patterns with AA. And keep in mind, I never said anything about leaving OneWorld for another alliance, just picking up yet another mainland US partner.


I would argue that if CX are to add another partner in US, it'll be B6. That would increase CX's presence in both BOS and JFK. CX also codeshare with AS right now anyway, helping feeds on their SEA flights.
 
questions
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:55 pm

tullamarine wrote:
questions wrote:
I’m not convinced any airline is wedded to their respective alliance. Simply being a “founding member” is not a business reason. If more money can be made leaving an alliance, an airline will change partners, cancel JV agreements, sell/write-off financial investments and reconfigure networks.

Correct Alliances are a construct of the '90s and are increasingly irrelevant today. Many airlines are "marrying out" such as QF/KL, CX/NZ or not bothering with alliances altogether EK,VS,VA. Many of the benefits originally foreseen in global alliances haven't come to pass such as common service standards, common FF schemes, joint aircraft purchases etc. These alliances are very expensive to be a part of and just because you were friends 20 years ago doesn't mean you like each other much today. It appears bilateral partnerships may be the future.


Star Alliance: May 1997
oneworld: February 1999
SkyTeam: June 2000

When the alliances were formed it was a “grab”, like trying to find a partner at a dance. There was not a lot of strategic thinking involved. Most airlines today are much more sophisticated with data and analytics and have a far better grasp on what drives profitability.
 
questions
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Re: Cathay Pacific and LH Group to expand Codesharing

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:58 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
I would argue that if CX are to add another partner in US, it'll be B6. That would increase CX's presence in both BOS and JFK. CX also codeshare with AS right now anyway, helping feeds on their SEA flights.


There is another airline that could also provide benefits to CX in BOS, JFK and SEA.

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