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Dutchy
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MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:08 am

MH17 was shot down by a Russian military BUK Missle, five years ago today. It was a black day for the Netherlands, Malasia, Australia,

Image

Just take a moment to remember this heinous deed.

27 Australians, 4 Belgium, 1 Canadian, 4 Germans, 12 Indonesians, 43 Malaysians, 193 Dutch, 1 from New Zealand, 3 Philippino, 10 British. 298 murdered.

Hopefully those responsible will be held responsible. Next year the first four will have to answer for their involvement before a judge. They will probably be trailed in absence, but that isn't the real issue.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:40 am

A link to the (always interesting) Dutch investigation report:

https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/media/attachment/2018/7/10/debcd724fe7breport_mh17_crash.pdf
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AirwayBill
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:55 am

Last moments lived by occupants have been absolutely horrifying.

Not the first airliner to be destroyed by humans' murderous impulse, and certainly not the last either.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:59 am

Sadly, justice is still far away for families of the vicitms.

What's even sadder is that the new Malaysian government is ambivalent towards pursuing justice - the PM, who wasn't there when the plane was shot down, would rather be chummy with Putin to the point of questioning the JIT investigation, which pisses me off to no end.
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Armodeen
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:03 am

There will never be justice. The world was briefly outraged and then realpolitik dictated a return to business as usually l with Russia, save for the public image.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:24 am

Some lessons have been learned, airlines seem to be a bit more careful and are avoiding more areas of intense fighting. Perhaps someone in the know could elaborate a bit more? it seems to be more coordinated, but that could be a false assumption.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ltbewr
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:33 am

Dutchy wrote:
Some lessons have been learned, airlines seem to be a bit more careful and are avoiding more areas of intense fighting.

Indeed. The recent flying bans over Iran and Pakistan (some partially lifted) reflect a well founded fear of aircraft being shot down over a hostile area as the Ukraine was then with MH 17 (and still is).
The worst part about MH 17, much like with other aircraft lost in terrorism or deliberate attacks, will be never getting the alleged perpetrators and their supporters to face penalties for their crimes. Russia of course will never take the blame for obvious reasons, although a sophisticated missile and launching system sourced from them was involved.
 
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vhtje
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:18 pm

I have always wondered if the grey underbody of the then-current MH livery was a factor in this tragedy. Did the perpetrators mistake it for a military aircraft?

Without wishing to be morbid, I also can't help wonder what it would have been like onboard. Quick, I should imagine. I don't know if that makes it better, or worse.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
Austin787
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:05 pm

Interesting the occurrences of the number 17:
Flight 17
On July 17
Aircraft had its first flight exactly 17 years prior (July 17, 1997)
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:15 pm

Austin787 wrote:
Interesting the occurrences of the number 17:
Flight 17
On July 17
Aircraft had its first flight exactly 17 years prior (July 17, 1997)


The 2 MH 777 accidents have had some really odd occurrences. The l/n number of the 9M-MRO(MH370) was 404.

Ever heard of the “Error 404 not found” error? Really crazy stuff.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:26 pm

vhtje wrote:
I have always wondered if the grey underbody of the then-current MH livery was a factor in this tragedy. Did the perpetrators mistake it for a military aircraft?

Without wishing to be morbid, I also can't help wonder what it would have been like onboard. Quick, I should imagine. I don't know if that makes it better, or worse.


That was one of the theories floated by the Russian Federation, it was shot down by mistake because it was thought it was Putin's plane, not that that one was near it in any dimension, but ok.

It was shot down while being 31.000feet in the air, 10kilometers, by a BUK-missile, a radar-guided BUK-missile. So no, it wasn't a contributing factor, so we can put your mind at ease.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
FlyingLaw1
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:55 pm

I flew into Schipol on the morning of July 19th, 2014 while on a trip to visit my relatives in Amsterdam. I will never forget seeing dozens of individuals and dozens more media at the front of the terminal. Many standing in awe and others placing flowers. When I placed flowers at the terminal that day, the flowers were maybe 30 meters down the terminal front--when I returned 5 days later the flowers were all the way to the end of the building.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:09 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Sadly, justice is still far away for families of the vicitms.

What's even sadder is that the new Malaysian government is ambivalent towards pursuing justice - the PM, who wasn't there when the plane was shot down, would rather be chummy with Putin to the point of questioning the JIT investigation, which pisses me off to no end.


In one of his books within the last five years (I can't remember the title), author Clive Cussler (of "Raise The Titanic" and "Sahara") gives us a story involving a character who is a Dutch arms merchant that everyone is trying to track down. No one is successful in the end, and the epilogue to the book places the arms dealer in the company of Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine.

The demonstration of this system that the rebels believe they are buying begins with a test launch of the system. Then the Dutch arms dealer enters a code into the computer, and very slowly the rebel group - including the rather vicious commander - realize that the missile is coming back directly towards them, locked into its orders, and ready to detonate upon reaching the group in just a few seconds.

You guessed it - the arms dealer lost his wife and family on that flight. Suffering from survivor's guilt, he planned the ultimate act of vengeance.

I'm afraid to say that this work of fiction is as close as we'll ever get to justice, but it is something memorable.
 
richierich
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:15 pm

Today is also the 23rd anniversary of TWA 800 exploding soon after takeoff from JFK. A loss for completely different reasons, perhaps, but another huge tragedy on this sad day. July 17th is not a happy travel day in the airline industry historically-speaking. I'm only mentioning it; in 2 years will be the 25th anniversary and surely a large thread dedicated to it.
None shall pass!!!!
 
2175301
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:06 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Some lessons have been learned, airlines seem to be a bit more careful and are avoiding more areas of intense fighting.

Indeed. The recent flying bans over Iran and Pakistan (some partially lifted) reflect a well founded fear of aircraft being shot down over a hostile area as the Ukraine was then with MH 17 (and still is).
The worst part about MH 17, much like with other aircraft lost in terrorism or deliberate attacks, will be never getting the alleged perpetrators and their supporters to face penalties for their crimes. Russia of course will never take the blame for obvious reasons, although a sophisticated missile and launching system sourced from them was involved.


My understanding is that the evidence is far more than just that the system was manufactured by Russia. It is my understanding that the warhead shrapnel fragments is definitive proof that it was missile from the current Russian armed forces; and not from a Ukrainian Missie.

Back at the time - and buried in some old computer files from my previous computer I have an extensive diagram of the different models of the BUK missile over the decades and the different generations and designs of warheads (guidance systems, etc.). While Ukraine had BUK missiles, it is my understanding that they had a previous generation warhead (different shrapnel). It is my understanding that once the shrapnel was collected from MH17 that Ukraine allowed international military experts to examine their Ukrainian BUK missiles to validate that they had the older warheads (and that the military experts picked missiles at random from various parts of Ukraine to inspect). I posted most of this information in the then current MH17 thread.

If I recall, the Russian company who made the warhead stopped cooperating with the Dutch and other international inspectors once it was identified that it was the latest generation warhead; and I have heard that what they refused to supply was where else they had shipped that most modern warhead too; other than obviously the Russian Military (you could upgrade and older missile with a modern warhead, guidance, and other components - I do think that Ukraine had updated the guidance components - but retained the old warhead). A personal suspicion (speculation/unverified) is that the most modern warhead may never have been (at the time) supplied to anyone outside of the Russian Military. It is known that Russia was selling BUK missiles with the older warheads at that time (use of existing stock, use up old warheads pulled from ungraded missiles - a lot of military sales do this: Only a select few get the latest and greatest).

Of course, there is a lot of other evidence that says "Russia" as well. But, the shrapnel is direct physical evidence; and based on the what I recall of the evidence of the time - was not possibly from a Ukrainian BUK missile.

Anyway, despite the evidence: Russia will never admit it; and in my opinion - the world by and large has allowed Russia to get away with it.

Have a great day,
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:00 pm

vhtje wrote:
Without wishing to be morbid, I also can't help wonder what it would have been like onboard. Quick, I should imagine. I don't know if that makes it better, or worse.


The explosive decompression might have knocked them out, but as the wreckage gets lower enough oxygen could have revived them.

Austin787 wrote:
Interesting the occurrences of the number 17:
Flight 17
On July 17
Aircraft had its first flight exactly 17 years prior (July 17, 1997)


Here's another coincidence, although this is stretching a bit. Take the last three letters of the plane's registration -MRD. Transpose the position of the letters on the alphabet (M = 13, R=18, D=4), add the numbers in single digit form (1+3+1+8+4).

You get 17.

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
In one of his books within the last five years (I can't remember the title), author Clive Cussler (of "Raise The Titanic" and "Sahara") gives us a story involving a character who is a Dutch arms merchant that everyone is trying to track down. No one is successful in the end, and the epilogue to the book places the arms dealer in the company of Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine.

The demonstration of this system that the rebels believe they are buying begins with a test launch of the system. Then the Dutch arms dealer enters a code into the computer, and very slowly the rebel group - including the rather vicious commander - realize that the missile is coming back directly towards them, locked into its orders, and ready to detonate upon reaching the group in just a few seconds.

You guessed it - the arms dealer lost his wife and family on that flight. Suffering from survivor's guilt, he planned the ultimate act of vengeance.

I'm afraid to say that this work of fiction is as close as we'll ever get to justice, but it is something memorable.


The title is Odessa Sea. Maybe I'll pick it up & give it a go.
Last edited by TheFlyingDisk on Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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HP69
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:02 pm

MH seems very accident prone, with this and the disappearance.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:04 pm

HP69 wrote:
MH seems very accident prone, with this and the disappearance.

Are you insinuating that MH had any part of responsibility in MH17???
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:06 pm

It still makes me sick to think about this crash/murder. Did the poor passengers at least not suffer for long? Would they have quickly lost consciousness at that altitude?
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 768
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:15 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
In one of his books within the last five years (I can't remember the title), author Clive Cussler (of "Raise The Titanic" and "Sahara") gives us a story involving a character who is a Dutch arms merchant that everyone is trying to track down. No one is successful in the end, and the epilogue to the book places the arms dealer in the company of Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine.

The demonstration of this system that the rebels believe they are buying begins with a test launch of the system. Then the Dutch arms dealer enters a code into the computer, and very slowly the rebel group - including the rather vicious commander - realize that the missile is coming back directly towards them, locked into its orders, and ready to detonate upon reaching the group in just a few seconds.

You guessed it - the arms dealer lost his wife and family on that flight. Suffering from survivor's guilt, he planned the ultimate act of vengeance.

I'm afraid to say that this work of fiction is as close as we'll ever get to justice, but it is something memorable.


The title is Odessa Sea. Maybe I'll pick it up & give it a go.


It wasn't one of his better books, especially not since he's been co-authoring a lot of them. Quite a few home runs, though, still being hit!
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:22 pm

HP69 wrote:
MH seems very accident prone, with this and the disappearance.


Accident prone? Hardly. Their last major accident prior to MH370/MH17 was in 1995, which killed 32 people. The deadliest crash prior to MH370/MH17 was MH684 which happened in 1977 - and it was a hijacking. It's just the luck of the draw, honestly.

If you're talking about USAir in the 1990s, then you can say they're accident prone - 4 crashes in a spate of 3 years, 2 of which happened just 3 months apart.
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CarlosSi
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:05 am

Death was quick for the passengers, since you likely wouldn't survive the impact. I'm 50/50 about wishing to know my life is about to end just minutes (or seconds) before it happens. "Painless" as a fall....
 
olle
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:51 pm

Mh17 disaster has now seen that individuals has been defined and will be charged for murder.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mh17-crash ... flight-17/


Could this had been applied to the Iran flight 655 30 years ago as well?


We can assume that in both cases none had an intention to shoot down a civilian jet.

If the russian ukraine crew get sentenced for murder will this ruling apply for other military forces in a war zone where civilian jets can get in harms way?
 
Philippine747
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Re: MH17 - 5 years ago

Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:52 am

HP69 wrote:
MH seems very accident prone, with this and the disappearance.


Before 370, the last major crash was of an A300 in 1980. From that point, they had a good safety record and is still considered as one of the safer SEA carriers.
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